Waves Director on Being a White Guy Telling a Black Family Story

A lot. Some things I don’t want to talk about. Things I will happily talk about: Tyler’s very much who I was in high school. I still have the scars from tearing my shoulder in wrestling. The dynamic between Tyler and Alexis and Emily and Luke is very much my girlfriend and I of the past eight years at some very bad times and some very great times. The parents were first inspired by my parents. We took it further outside of that with Kelvin and our collaboration with the other actors. But very similar. I grew up upper-middle class. My mom was a therapist. My dad ran his business. He didn’t do construction like Ron in the film; he was a therapist as well and ran my mom’s business. I live in Florida. My girlfriend grew up where we shot the movie. It’s home. A ton of the locations in there are some of my favorite places. Where we shot the school dance is where her school dance was. There are some other things I don’t think other people would want me to talk about.

Did you hit your girlfriend?

No, not that far. But we had big fights. I like to think all couples have… I don’t know this, but in a long relationship, you have your low moments. Verbal fights. Big blowups and getting to the healthy side of that. That moment that you just asked about… A lot of those [onscreen] blowups are inspired by fights I’ve had, but also things I’ve observed. It was sort of “What if?” What if that stuff combined? What would it take to lead to that?

At what point did you realize you were writing a story about a black family?

Because of Kelvin. It’s been brewing forever, it was just my family. But with him, that’s when it became the nuance of a black family. Kelvin and I did [It Comes at Night] together and we loved each other.

He got a first draft, and then even when I sent the first draft, I said, “You pick. You can be Luke, you can be Tyler, whatever you’re drawn to.” He wanted to be Ty, and we just kept taking it further. He got that probably eight months before we started shooting and it was extremely collaborative. I owe the nuance and perspective of a black family to him. And then it continued once Sterling came on, once Renée [Elise Goldsberry] came on, once [Taylor Russell] came on. Between discussions of them approaching scenes, between them ad-libbing things, and just talking about it. We felt a lot of responsibility. In the wrong hands, this is a drastic disservice, especially culturally right now. Kel and I always said if people get to the end of Ty and don’t understand how we got there, and if you’ve lost all humanity, then we’ve failed. His humanity needs to remain intact, but you need to feel the humanity for every single character in the story. It’s so personal and autobiographical, but then it grew into something bigger because of that and these actors and that collaboration. I feel very, very, very blessed.

In the wrong hands, this is a drastic disservice, especially culturally right now.

All of that said, is it daunting to have your name attached to this movie? You’re white and you’re telling a black story.

I know no matter what, it won’t be enough. Some people won’t be able to look past it, and that sucks. I remember, too, when we were talking to Sterling, he was like, “If we don’t get this right, it’s not good.” He talked with Kel and Kel was like, “I love Trey, I’m drawn to this character, we believe in this for this reason, but… should I not play this ’cause I’m black?” I think Sterling was taken aback, too. I think if I would have approached this objectively as a white dude like, “This is a black story,” that would be terrible. The only reason I think it works and feels honest, hopefully, is because of that collaboration. Film can be one of the most collaborative mediums between the script and the productions, I don’t know what it would have been like any other way.

Just looking at raw framework, it is at the very least audacious as a white filmmaker to make a movie in which a black character kills a lighter-skinned woman with his bare hands.

Yes.

Given the stereotypes. Given Native Son and James Baldwin’s reaction to it. Beyond the collaboration, how did you come to peace with that?

This was the scary thing for Sterling, the scary thing to work through and get to. What we talked about was that you have to understand Ty, and you have to understand Alexis, and you have to understand their dynamic. They are a combustible thing. I think the mistake would have been if it were just angry Ty. They push each other. That’s a real relationship. They’re a ball of fire. Before that pivotal moment happens, she slaps him hard across the face three times and he lapses. He has a terrible, terrible instinctual reaction. Ultimately, I believe it’s a tragedy, it’s an accident. But it’s a very fine line to where if that would have been taken the wrong way, it’s a disservice. It’s terrible. Shooting that was incredibly hard. We all wouldn’t leave that garage until we found—this sounds pretentious—the truth in it. The honesty in it.

I wonder what the bigger philosophy was regarding humanizing someone who could do that.

Look at the internet in the movie. Look at when Emily’s scrolling through social media. At that point, Tyler’s journey becomes what it is culturally: It’s pure evil. I know it’s a fine line, but what I believe is that human beings are incredibly, incredibly complex. We have a lot going on. We tried to make every character complex, but especially Tyler, a complex, good, bad, real human being that’s flawed, and portray that honestly. To me, that’s life. There’s a nuance in that. What we do right now sometimes culturally with the internet, is we don’t have that kind of nuanced empathy, or really trying to understand something. It becomes pure both sides. Good or evil. I don’t think that’s accurate to human beings in life. That being said, I want it to be complex and for everyone to feel like they have weight. I want Ty’s journey to have weight, Alexis’s to have weight, Emily’s to have weight, and understand each side. I hope it feels empathetic and I hope it feels human.

What we do right now sometimes culturally with the internet, is we don’t have that kind of nuanced empathy, or really trying to understand something. It becomes pure both sides. Good or evil. I don’t think that’s accurate to human beings in life.

I think someone could still say, “Look, here’s a movie about a black guy who kills his girlfriend with his bare hands, and his sister who finds redemption in a relationship with a white guy. That’s fucked up.”

Of course. But here’s what I’ll say: We knew that going into it. On both sides, on the flip side, too, on Lucas’s side of things, you do that in the wrong way, that’s a terrible disservice. And I get it. There’s some people that just won’t go there. It’s already happened.

I’m sure it has.

And there’s no way to do anything. I respect that. Our intentions, and what I believe the movie is doing is not falling into any actual stereotypes, because we’re humanizing every single person and every single person is complex. And even for Part 2, Lucas doesn’t do shit. He doesn’t save her. What’s he do? They do molly together and smoke weed. She saves herself and the relationship with her family is so much more paramount to that.

It’s already happened, and I haven’t talked to those people [who’ve said that] personally, but I would love to talk and just get a dialogue going and be like, “I hear you, this is what we were trying to do, this is what we believe, and this is why I think, I believe we approached this with the best of intentions and we did a good job making complex human beings on all sides.” But if you can’t get to the nuance and meet the movie at that level, I get it. It makes me sad, ’cause ultimately I believe the movie’s not about race first and foremost; it’s about a lot of other things, but we just wanted to represent fairly.

Was there anything that your cast pointed out that you got so wrong or that had to be radically reexamined from your original vision?

A big one: The pinnacle event was more graphic in my first draft. My first stab at it was supposed to be a lapse of rage where you don’t understand what happens. I’ve had that kind of rage in my life. It’s a funny thing about anger, too. You’re always the victim. Everyone else is out to get you. The goal was to visually do that to where you’re like, “What happened?” and you just experience it with Tyler. But I think in that process, it was just making the event more graphic and wrong, and it would have been way more alienating. This was a huge flag for Kelvin, for Sterling, and it’s what we talked about. It’s why it is what it is in the movie. That’s the main thing. Past that, I can’t think of a lot. It wasn’t drastic stuff. It was nuance.

Ultimately I believe the movie’s not about race first and foremost, it’s about a lot of other things, but we just wanted to represent fairly.

What do you think of the Euphoria comparisons?

It’s frustrating. I can sound really annoying in this context, but there are little things like we shot before Euphoria was made. My DP [Drew Daniels] was hired for episodes of Euphoria because of Waves. There’s that. I will say, I really dig Euphoria. I think it’s a great show, but it’s very different than Waves. I think it’s an easy comparison and the nuance of the filmmaking and the nuance of what the two things are about, yes there’s commonality, and yes there’s kids with parents in high school with some similar themes, but I think they’re still drastically different. I’ve seen Euphoria, I’ve seen This is Us, because it’s emotional and Sterling is in it, and I’ve seen Moonlight because it’s a black family in Florida. It’s like all those are great, but this is its own thing, hopefully. I believe it’s its own unique, beautiful thing, and can we just take it in for what it is instead of comparing?