She released, along with the DNA test, an ad about her Native American heritage and the stories she heard—the discrimination against her mother’s family, who was rumored to have Native American blood, and how her parents got married in spite of that. And then it explained that her “background” played no role in her hiring—that she was a hardworking student who didn’t benefit from her heritage, setting up a troubling dynamic that implies being hardworking and Native American are mutually exclusive things.

Advertisement

It sounds completely confident with the narrative that she and her defenders have been spinning throughout this whole debate. I mean, none of that is new. It doesn’t sound like she’s gotten any more self-reflexive about how she overstepped in centering her claims to Cherokee ancestry. I can watch it, but it makes me feel kind of ill to hear that she did a new ad encapsulating the whole problematic narrative that’s been generated by her and her defenders since 2012, frankly. That’s when this all started; when she was running for Senate against Scott Brown and I think he’s the first one who called her Pocahontas.

[Ed. Note: After the interview, TallBear watched the ad and tweeted, “i’m nauseated. the video sums it all up. Non-Indigenous Americans will never stop making claims to all things Indigenous: bones, blood, land, waters, and identities. The US continues to appropriate every last thing.”]

Advertisement

In politics, it’s easy to call out Donald Trump’s racism. It’s very overt, very derogatory, but what are the effects of what you see from this ad, this racist messaging from Warren and her supporters, who are seen as the face of progressive politics in this country?

Advertisement

When Trump called her Pocahontas, who cares if she’s offended? Why would she even be offended? She is running around making these outlandish claims herself. People who should really be offended by that are the indigenous people related to Pocahontas and other real indigenous people. Pocahontas is a historical character whose representation is used as a pawn in debates between Donald Trump and Elizabeth Warren and the Republicans and the Democrats. Nobody cares about the pain surrounding the stories of Pocahontas and other indigenous whose lives were marked by colonial tragedy so when indigenous people hear about Pocahontas, we think about who she was as a person. We think about the way in which that era then led to all of this dispossession and massacre and loss of land, loss of family members, loss of religious freedom that indigenous people have subsequently gone through. If you go back to that era, there was a whole lot of violence and massacre and genocide. That’s what we think about when we think about somebody who lived at that time.

Advertisement

I spent a lot of time in Charlottesville, Virginia, and there are all these white people around there that love to claim they are descendants from Pocahontas— privileged white people who have no lived relationships with indigenous people. To them, indigenous people are back in the 1600s, are back in the 1700s. We don’t really exist for them as living relations today. It really is, Well they’re dead and gone, so we can just claim to be them. There’s none of them around to correct us anyway. They really do believe, I think, in the East that we’re largely dead and gone. That’s what I discovered when I moved to Boston from South Dakota back in 1989. It was just a shock to me how many people—good-meaning progressives—because I was in Cambridge. Good-meaning progressives said, Oh, I thought there were no natives left. Can you guys leave the reservation? They asked me the craziest questions and showed me they had no reference points for native people at all, and so that’s the kind of environment that somebody like Warren I think is operating in.

Now that said, she’s coming from Oklahoma. There’s a whole lot of native people in Oklahoma, but there’s also, paradoxically, a real pervasive desire to claim to be native by white people in Oklahoma as well. Whether they have it in proof or not, this is a problem the Cherokee nation is constantly confronting and they’re really active in calling out well-known people who claim to be Cherokee, because again, most people who claim Native ancestry live no lived relationship to Native people, actually do claim to be Cherokee. They’re the biggest tribe in the country. They’ve got a really interesting history that I think allows a lot of white people to identify with that tribe in a way that they wouldn’t identify with other tribes. Warren is not the only person that they have challenged who claims to be Cherokee.

Advertisement

Why do so many people claim that they are Cherokee?

Circe Sturm is an anthropologist who has a book, Becoming Indian, where she writes extensively about this. I’m not a historian of this area, so I’m just kind of going to give you the vague outline: The Cherokee Nation is one of what were called the Five Civilized Tribes. They were called civilized because earlier on, say when my Dakota ancestors were still living in teepees and hunting buffalo on the prairie, you had these Southeastern tribes, the Five Civilized Tribes who had these basically nation-state forms of government.

Advertisement

The Cherokee Nation had a printing press. They wrote their language down. They were attempting to establish a nation-state that was in a sense recognizable by the U.S. government so they could lessen the effect of colonization so they could stand as a nation among nations. So there’s a way in which they are more understandable as kind of noble and civilized people to white people because they were attempting to live more within a white person’s idea of what it is to be a nation. There’s this myth that circulates often that the Cherokees were actually white. And you even see genetic genealogists and some kind of crackpot scientists who want to trace Cherokee genealogy and ancestry back to Europe.

This is stuff that I don’t think the general public knows explicitly. I think they know implicitly that the Cherokee nation is this tribe that has been socially, it has seemed, closer to whiteness. Socially it seems closer to a real nation-state than a lot of other tribes, and I think it makes it more accessible to them, psychically.

Advertisement

She could have ignored Trump’s racist barbs. What do you make of the fact that Warren has instead chosen to build a moment around them, so close to the midterm elections? What message does that strategic choice send to you?

I don’t think what Native Americans actually think matters to either party, frankly, unless it’s somebody running for office in a state where the Native American vote is actually going to count. And it doesn’t count in most parts of the country. Sure, if you’re in South Dakota, Montana, Arizona, New Mexico, and you’re running for especially state office in an area where there’s a big indigenous population then yes, you genuinely care what the Native American electorate thinks. But I don’t think overall, the Democrats and the Republicans both know that our vote matters very little in most elections.

Advertisement

It must be that she perceives it to be an issue that could hurt her, in terms of non-indigenous voters, but I don’t know that that’s actually the case. I don’t feel that Trump followers are going to vote for her no matter what, and most people who identify as Democrats aren’t going to vote for Trump. I’m not sure that it is actually politically efficacious, but I’m not a pundit.

Dating back to 2012 and since then, what have you wanted to see from Warren?

Rebecca Nagle is a Cherokee woman who wrote a piece for Think Progress and she writes a lot and tweets a lot on this issue. She wrote this piece back in November 2016, titled, “I am a Cherokee Woman. Elizabeth Warren Is Not.” At the end of that piece she wrote a two-paragraph Here’s the apology Elizabeth Warren should have given us:

I am deeply sorry to the Native American people who have been greatly harmed by my misappropriation of Cherokee identity. I want to especially apologize to the over 350,000 citizens of Cherokee Nation, Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians and the United Keetoowah Band. In my family, there is an oral history of being Cherokee, however, research on my genealogy going back over 150 years does not reveal a single Native ancestor. Like many Americans who grew up with family members claiming to be Cherokee, I now know that my family’s stories were based on myth rather than fact. I am not enrolled in any of the three Federally recognized Cherokee Tribes, nor am I an active member of any Cherokee or Native American community. Native Nations are not relics of the past, but active, contemporary, and distinct political groups who are still fighting for recognition and sovereignty within the United States. Those of us who claim false Native identity undermine this fight.

I am sorry for the real damage that Native Americans have experienced as the debate about my false identity has revived the worst stereotypes and offensive racist remarks, all while Native people have been silenced. I will do my part as a Senator to push for the United States to fully recognize tribal nations’ inherent sovereignty and uphold our treaty obligations to Native Nations. I will use my national platform to advance the rights of Native Americans and I commit to building real relationships in Indian Country as an ally and supporter.

Advertisement

If you talk to Cherokee people and other indigenous political commentators who have been following her actual voting record, she’s not been great about supporting tribal sovereignty. She’s all fine to go to talk to the National Congress of American Indians last February and shake some hands and say I’m on your side, but when the rubber meets the road, I don’t think that’s been her record. It has certainly has not been her record to respect tribal sovereignty in terms of actually meeting face to face and one on one with the Cherokee nation and with groups of Cherokee people who have come to Washington and requested that she meet with them to address this issue.

Instead, she’s addressing Republicans, she’s addressing her voters, she’s addressing the broader popular media.

Advertisement

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.