Ah brilliant! I was vegetarian from birth to age 19, and now at 25 have decided to go back to it. Yes bacon is delicious, but the way animals are treated, and the amount of damage their farming indirectly causes to the environment is not worth one moment of delicious.
Also Morrissey reminded me why it's important to be a veg:
"I think animals need all the help they can get, because they have none. They have no rights. They have no protection. And so I think animals need help. And I think animals look to humans for protection, and of course humans lead them into slaughterhouses, which to me is just like an image of leading children into a slaughterhouse. There's no difference. That level of trust and… But it's a very cruel world."
I was a vegetarian since the age of 17 until about 6 months ago. I was and probably am quite anemic with VERY HEAVY menstrual bleeding. I felt like total shit....until I decided (with my acupuncturist's prodding) to start eating red meat. I cannot explain the change of how I feel. I feel so so so much better:)
Now I eat steak before and during my period and I don't feel like I want to die.
@Quecchua ( Subversive Unschooling Witch): Yeah, I'm pretty sure that not everyone can actually adopt a totally animal free or even meat free diet without ill consequence. Some can, to be sure, but it seems that it's not universal.
Kind of off topic, but one thing that has always bothered me, since I went vegetarian and even before when I've been around other vegetarians/vegans, is this attitude that some people have towards us. I can't tell you how many times I've been at dinner with a group of people, and at least one of them feels the need to point to their steak and say, 'SURE you don't want some? Just a BITE? It's delicious!' My ex's Dad used to always joke, at EVERY SINGLE MEAL, 'But this lamb was a vegetarian, so you could totally get away with it'. Then there's the couple of friends I have who bite into their burger and make orgasmic sounds and act as if they've died and gone to heaven, all for my benefit.
I don't get why vegetarianism is so mocked, and not taken seriously. I'm not a militant veg-head, either. I don't eat meat, but my husband does, and I'll even cook it for him on the few occasions when the situation warrants. It doesn't bother me to eat out with folks who have meat on their plate and I've never once tried to persuade anyone else to go vegetarian. Despite all this, I have several friends and acquaintances who seem to be personally affronted or at the very least, amused by my lifestyle choice and feel the need to openly mock it.
I just feel like if I were a vegetarian for religious or health purposes instead of just because I don't like eating animals, people would be a lot less inclined to give me shit about it. Or maybe they wouldn't. Thoughts?
some people don't want to think about what they're eating, which is what you make them do (even if you say nothing and simply order your own meal with no meat ingredients). so they deflect and say the things you mention.
this used to happen to me a little bit when i first became a vegetarian, and i think it was partly because i was a bit preachy back in the day. so people retaliated with this kind of teasing.
nowadays i don't even tell anybody i'm a vegetarian when i go out to eat. i just scan the menu and pick something on it without meat.
i wouldn't take it so personally. if you can think of some kind of jokey thing to say back to them, that's probably the best route. because then they see they can't get you flustered, that their opinion means zero to you. this will usually stop them.
@kaiwhakamarie: I had a friend in college who was a vegan and she was never preachy about it and the topic only came up when we were going out to dinner (she needed to make sure there were vegan options). But I've had many more friends who are militant vegans and rock "Murder King" shirts to dinner and have lectured me on how I would be a much better person if I stopped eating meat. One friend in my group refused to go to dinner with any of us if we were going to eat meat because she said it made her nauseated.
I think the bottom line is that a few preachy omnivores and a few preachy vegheads can ruin it for everyone.
@kaiwhakamarie: This drives me BATSHIT CRAZY. It's absolutely fucking juvenile, and new acquaintances would never think of needling someone this way if s/he declined to have an alcoholic drink.
@thatonegirlsays: I don;t know where we're finding all these militant vegans; I know a lot of vegetarians and vegans and have never met anyone who was even a little bit like that.
@Penny_Esq: Actually, on our blog, one of the other gals was talking about the harassment she gets from drinkers when they find out she abstains, and I compared it to the harassment veg*ns get from meat-eaters.
@kaiwhakamarie: I've been a vegetarian for a very long time, and decided to embrace that lifestyle for a combination of reasons (health, animal rights, environmental, and yes, vanity). To answer your question, being a vegetarian for reasons other than animal rights, does not diminish the snide, annoying comments that omnivores feel entitled to make. To this day, my grandfather (8 years into my vegetarianism) asks me annoying questions such as, "Tchotchke, are you still on that diet thing? You don't eat *any* meat? Not even veal?" It's incredibly annoying, but I try not to take it to heart because they are comments from a man who refers to his dermatologist as a "taxidermist" without the slightest trace of irony.
@kaiwhakamarie: yeah. when i was vegan, the abuse i got from people telling me what an idiot i was was INSANE. Or just how anxious it made people. I was NOT preachy and wouldnt tell anyone anything unless they asked. but i was just so widely mocked and derided. it was really awful.
@kaiwhakamarie: This kind of thing drives me insane. I've been a vegetarian for 15 years, and some of my friends can't not comment on it. At every meal they either mock, or say sincerely that they wished I ate meat so I can share whatever they're eating. I've never tried to make any of them stop eating meat, I don't suggest vegan restaurants, and I would never discuss meat production at the dinner table. And yet I'm constantly having steak offered to me, or bing told stories of pig roasts. It's insulting.
@Tchotchke: Ahahaha, I have to say, I LOVE questions from older folks about what I do and don't eat. My mom's friend asked me the other day if I ate chicken, to which I said no, and then followed that up with, "Do you eat almonds?" I mean, almonds? Really?
@SarahMC: Yeah, you know, on further though you're/she's right about that. I have definitely borne witness to inappropriate pressuring/heckling of people who choose not to have a drink. Is it that abstaining, in and of itself, confers the feeling of being judged to the non-abstainers?
@Penny_Esq: Yeah, maybe that's true. I'm reminded of when my husband quit smoking and all the guys at his job blew smoke in his face and made fun of him for being a 'pussy'. Nice.
I think I'd rather get made fun of for being a vegetarian any day. Still, I don't point and make rude comments when I see people eating triple cheeseburgers.
@Everything MidnightBikeRide does is a balloon.: I've met very few vegans who aren't that way. Perhaps because I was in college and when you're young, it's fun to be militant like that, but it was annoying to say the least.
There was a big long e-mail thread at my first post-college job (at a very crunchy, eco conscious company) a woman berated management for ordering Indian food that was only vegetarian and not vegan friendly.
@kaiwhakamarie: I think some people fear they're being judged for not doing enough. I've been one of the only non-vegans (I'm vegetarian) at a vegan potluck and I felt a little threatened, to be honest, but I didn't act out on it, of course. As for others, like my conservative relatives, vegetarianism/veganism is such a foreign concept. They don't know how to approach it, so they feel it's easier to mock it.
@Tchotchke: Old people are pretty bad about it. My cousin is a vegetarian and my grandma is under the impression that his vegetarianism and his homosexuality are linked in some sinister way.
@kaiwhakamarie: Growing up vegetarian the main question was "Doesn't your plate look empty?" which drove me nuts, so I feel your pain. I've been eating meat for 6 years and am going back on the wagon so to speak and am dreading some of my friend's reactions as they are hardcore meat eaters.
@thatonegirlsays: A'ight, you all have made your point. What do you want people to do? Plenty of people have made it clear that they are berated, mocked, and even sabatoged by meat-eaters who can't accept that some people don't eat meat; are you going to apologize on their behalf? Because it sounds like that's what you want veg*n Jezzies to do. Or to concede that, since some veg*ns are assholes, their many reasons to be veg*n are illegitimate.
i've been a vegetarian (not vegan) for 20 years. prior to that, a tBone steak, cooked rare, was the high point of my week. i came to the conclusion through my own personal reading that meat-eating wasn't something i felt comfortable with anymore. and so it's been easy for me to avoid eating meat, fish, chicken.
it was actually harder to give up my leather clothes! but even as somebody who competed in dressage (horseback riding) i was able to find synthetic leather substitutes.
some of the poorest people on this planet in asia and africa live a purely vegan lifestyle. this discounts the vegan=rich elitist argument. whether or not somebody chooses this dietary path is purely their own decision. i realized after my first few years of being vegetarian that nobody wants to be preached at, and that most people who eat meat aren't going to give it up until they question it enough themselves.
More people need to realize that by going vegetarian and only consuming eggs and milk products, they are STILL supporting the suffering of animals and the meat industry! What do you think happens to those chickens and cows when they can no longer produce? how do you think they're kept?
@SarahMC: I don't really feel as if anyone here has said veganism is "wrong." Maybe something more nuanced, like "unappealing to one personally, in part because of the absolutism involved"?
@SarahMC: It's an easy excuse for people to write off veganism and vegetarianism. It's easier to stereotype the movement than to think about the ethics at hand.
@SarahMC: I think that, because veganism is still considered an alternative lifestyle, the culture tends to be divided. some vegans are quiet about it, don't cause a scene over an animal product and merely keep their eyes open for something acceptable to them. there are vegans whose meat eating friends don't even know they are vegan because they don't make a big deal about it. most of my friends are vegetarian on some level, because we share core values and ideals.
then there are the vegans who feel the need to make a scene about everything with animal products in it. the hardcore activists with the absolutist attitudes make sure they are heard.
it is human nature to notice the obnoxious person, but not the meek person standing beside them. not all vegans and vegetarians are obnoxious, but if they aren't their eating habits would not necessarily come up as a topic of conversation. have you had a discussion with everybody you know about your eating habits?
and thus, we get our reputation from the obnoxious jerks.
i love this man. there are so many things that i would like to say, but i'll keep it "short"
1. vegans who are so because of their health are perfectly capable of staying vegan when their prior health situation included a near death experience. i know several people who are scared to death of the hormones included in meat and dairy.
2. i love animals... but if i was certain the animals on my plate were treated well and killed in a humane manner (of which i cannot fathom) i still wouldn't eat them.
3. a cannibal asked what drove him to eat people replied that years ago, the people of his culture had no other way of maintaining a nutritious diet. as they learned to herd animals and grow fruit, they stopped eating people. i feel that many humans fall back on the idea that we have learned to herd animals, and if we are smart enough to do this in an organized fashion we should be eating meat. personally, i feel that we should move to the next step in an intelligent society. if we are smart enough to attain the appropriate level of nutrition without killing another sentient being, then we should leave meat eating behind us.
that being said, it is my personal opinion. i have friends who eat meat who just like meat. it isn't my place to judge them for it. i would, however, appreciate that they not judge me for my decisions on the matter.
@hippiechx is NOT A NUGGET: That's my opinion. I don't judge you as long as you've thought through your options. I've thought through mine, and having been raised a meat-eater, decided I just don't really like meat much, and I think it's more fun and interesting to cook vegetarian meals (I couldn't be vegan because I would miss cheese FAAAARRR too much and have yet to find an acceptable substitute).
What I dislike is eating meat because it's just "what people are supposed to do," or alternately, "what men do." If you like it, you like it, but at least consider trying vegetables! Or consider eating some tofu when I cook it! I've known people who won't do either--and it sometimes seems to be attached to an obsession with masculinity.
@you've got red on you: 'spose that could have been taken as hypocritical. What I meant was that I won't preach to anyone about vegetarianism if it isn't your thing--I just ask that you give a thought to what you put in your body and why. If you like meat, eat it all you want, but don't tell me I need to eat bacon or eat a cheeseburger. I've done the meat thing since birth (and truth be told, I still eat fish once a week or so), and I understand the appeal...sort of. But people should respect each others' lifestyles. The golden rule, people, the golden rule.
@you've got red on you: here here! i also feel that a true friend is supportive of your sacrifices. if you are cooking dinner for your friends at your house, it is best if they don't complain about it being "bird food". these sorts of things.
Maybe I'm the only one to notice this, or maybe I need to make new friends, but I'm kind of thrilled that a man is advocating the vegan cause. I'm fully on my way to becoming a vegetarian (I don't cook with meat and avoid it at restaurants)--or at least a pescatarian...but I do not know one single male who will even entertain the thought for a moment. I refuse to believe it is for health reasons ("men need more iron" or some bullshit). I feel like, with a lot of my male friends and exes, they don't think real men can BE vegetarian. I want to knock some sense into them by saying the best sex I ever had was with a vegan--but that would only be met with guffaws, as that guy was not a "real man" by their standards...I don't know. Anybody else encounter this phenomenon?
@you've got red on you: I guess it depends on the circles you're in. I have a male vegan roommate and two vegetarian brothers, and I've known quite a few male vegans/vegetarians.
It's interesting though, because the roommate is such a dude and he's vegan in the most conventionally masculine way - doesn't eat a lot of vegetables, consumes mostly a diet of fake meat products and is very very vocal about his veganism being the Right Way to Eat and Live. On the other hand, my brother's male vegan roommate has been so for over 10 years, and is one of those incredible male feminists we all look for who is into deconstructing our ideas of masculinity (he's publishing a magazine about it) and he doesn't bring his veganism up all the time as self-congratulation and he cooks delicious food. Sorry ladies, he's also not available.
@you've got red on you: I also think that the gender imbalance among vegetarians contributes to the stereotype that vegetarin/veganism is a cover-up for eating disorders. I know a lot of guys who don't eat meat(maybe it's just because I'm a liberal college kid) but most non-vegetarians I know think it's a girl thing. Sigh.
@you've got red on you: I know there are plenty floating around here in Portland, but they do not seem to run in my professional or personal circles; they seem to be the hipster types with fixed gear bikes and pants too tight for an office job. The receptionist in my office, however, has a vegetarian boyfriend who's actually a contractor, which is about as manly as it gets. (Although his degree is in graphic design, so I suppose that's not quite as manly.)
Like I said previously, I've been a long-term vegetarian. Last year, I spent 5 months living in Morocco. I was invited by a Moroccan friend of mine to come over and celebrate the Eid al-Adha (festival involving the slaughter of a sheep) at their house. I went with another Canadian vegetarian, and although we didn't partake in the sheep killing/eating, we watched, took pictures, and ate the yummy salads and breads the family offered us. I was incredibly fascinated by the ritual, of how every family member had a role in this sacrifice, and how every family was doing the same thing at the same hour, the same day.
After that, I talked to some other expats living in Morocco who had been invited to their first Eids as well. They were meat-eaters and could not watch the sheep being killed and had to go inside so not to witness it. I thought it interesting that I wasn't bothered by it as much as those who ate meat, and wondered if it had to do with the connection I had made internally that this is what meat is, essentially. I often look at meat and see muscle tissue. I was also impressed because it brought back a connection between the food we eat and its source. It seemed so much more natural than buying a package of lamb from the supermarket and not knowing where it came from at all.
@pwahrhz eh pwarhroh: I'll put in a third reaction to this kind of ceremony: in Madagascar I've watched a cow being sacrifice and then eaten it's meat afterward. It doesn't bother me, but I own my carnivory. I also have become incredibly desensitized to the sight of dead animals due to my research. I can't eat any part of a chicken without actually knowing the names of the muscles I'm eating, and I actually really enjoy getting a cut of meat with some kind of bone morphology. My friends and I are kind of at the extremes of this geekiness, though, hehe.
@AnaNg: I think that's great. I didn't mean to imply that all meat-eaters are desensitized to the source of their food, but it was an interesting observation I made at that time.
I'm also very fascinated by meat, especially gourmet meats and exotic meats that I'd never tried because I was young when I was an omnivore. Part of me wishes I would have tried more local delicacies and partaken in local traditions that involved meat. I felt a bit rude refusing the sheep due to this bizarre concept of being vegetarian.
@poires et poireaux: Obviously there are meat-eaters (like Ang) who don't have such a disconnect between slaughter and plate, but I know what you're talking about. At Easter my relatives were thumbing through some old cookbook that I guess had very graphic images of slaughter, and they were super horrified and were like "oh no, don't let goldengirl11 see! How are we going to eat the ham now?!" I mean, hello, I'm a vegetarian because I realize the realities of slaughter, and the cookbook wasn't even depicting a livestock factory, but a sunny, grassy farm! I think I've gotten a lot less sentimental about animals since I've become vegetarian, it's kind of strange.
@poires et poireaux: I lived in Kazakhstan and I got to go through three aits. I petted a horse in the morning and saw it on the place that night. I didn't watch the slaughter. My family invited me but when I declined they said it was okay. They were also very defensive of my vegetarianism and told other people to leave me alone and not offer me sausage. I certainly didn't judge them for their religious beliefs either. It was great for us all to experience new world views.
I have never once felt guilty or inethical in any way over my meat consumption. I grew up on a cattle ranch and I saw the long, fuzzy, slow-eyed, long-eyelashed faces of the four-legged beasts that would ultimately provide my dinner. I've helped my dad haul back meat from the slaughterhouse, with that blood-offal smell still lingering in my nostrils, and helped stock the deep freeze with packages of meat that were on a living animal not long before (and set aside a package of hamburger and cooked a casserole for dinner and ate, alongside everyone else, hungrily.)
From an ethical standpoint, I know what has to happen for an animal to be bred, raised, slaughtered, butchered, and prepared for my dining room table. I've seen a lot of it first-hand. My dad's cattle are all free-range, he raises all their food himself (alfalfa, grass, hay, straw, etc) and they only receive medication if they have a health problem. I know a lot of factory farms are not that rigorous in terms of humane standards, but--and call me cruel--it has simply never bothered me.
That's why it's sometimes difficult for me to engage in discussions of the ethics of eating meat. It's not really a facet of the omnivore/herbivore argument that has ever swayed me.
I've often been curious about how many folks here grew up on a farm, and if it changes your perceptions on the ethics of meat-eating. For instance, Dr. Temple Grandin (fascinating lady - look her up!) has worked for many years studying livestock and designing feedlot/slaughterhouse equipment that is more humane, and she eats meat too. Some people spend a lot of time around animals and have no problem using them for meat; for some people, it changes their mind forever. Has anyone else had an experience like this one way or another?
@tscheese: I didn't grow up on a farm, but I did grow up in the country and in a family where hunting and fishing are favorite pastimes. I've seen a dead deer hanging in the garage in the morning and eaten venison steak at night. I've caught my own fish and helped my dad clean them. So I don't harbor any illusions about where my food comes from, and it hasn't made me change my mind about eating meat.
That said, I don't, myself, hunt. And I'm open to the possibility that were I to be presented with the opportunity to actually kill a deer or similar mammal, it would be a game-changer for me.
I was vegetarian in college and a vegan for three months, and the reason I gave up eating animal products was not animal rights, but because I refused to give any more money to corporations who didn't give a damn if they were selling me poor quality, potentially contamined products.
I read up on antibiotic-resistant staph bacteria in pork products, salmonella in chicken, mad cow in beef and the general filth of meat processing plants. And while I've never been struck down with serious illness from my food, not only was it not worth the chance, I wasn't going to fork over my money to these companies who weren't going to make any changes any time soon. I came out of that phase being more concientious of the animal products I do buy, particularly staying away from highly processed ones.
@TheExperience: I am also a vegetarian for non-animal rights reasons. I read Fast Food Nation and the part where they describe the meat processing industry scared me veg. It was like a modern-day Jungle to me. I think that I wouldn't have a problem eating locally processed meat, but now I'm really just in the habit of being vegetarian (3 years) and probably will not return to meat within the foreseeable future.
I'm not a judgmental vegan, but one thing does get to me. I hate when people say they cannot give up bacon. Because pigs are the most intelligent, wonderful creatures and we treat them in the most horrendous way. At least cows can move around, but pigs are kept in cages so small they cannot even turn around, for example. And honestly, I loved bacon before I went vegan but it's just a food. There are many delicious foods out there, and yes, even some good bacon alternatives (smoky tempeh grilled in thin strips = heaven).
@theminutepast: I do, too. I know people mean it (mostly) as a joke and they think it's funny, but pigs are very intelligent and when you really look at what goes on in those factory farms ... I just don't see how you can feel that the taste of anything justifies that.
@theminutepast: I get my pork from this wonderful pig farm in Pennsylvania. They've got this HUGE pasture, and the pen in which the pigs sleep have no cages, just a few partitions so if they want a little privacy they can have it, but from what I've seen they sleep in big warm heaps.
There is such a thing as ethical meat, dairy and eggs, and that's the only thing I'll buy anymore.
My parents became vegetarians in the 1960s due to cultural issue and then imparted that to myself and my siblings.
I have never eaten meat in my life.
Even in the womb, no fish, no meat.
I do not know what it tastes like, so I can't really say if I miss it or not. I do know that my body will tell me when it needs protein, and I have to be more careful of my shopping and where I eat out, but for me the issues come with other people.
For me, not eating meat is just how I was raised. It's my culture. I don't care about "teh poor bunnies!!11!" [ok, I used to have a pet rabbit. I care] and it's not a moral issue for me. I don't force my choice on others and I get offended when other vegans and vegetarians chew me out because I'm not "with them" on that.
It's your body- eat what you like- long as it's legal. Don't force me to try meat [and yes, I have caught people trying to "hide" meat in my food] and I won't even blink when you eat your bacon burger for dinner.
And Mr.Scotvixen my SO eats meat. We have a separate cupboard in the fridge for his stuff, and mine. He cooks his own meat, we share veggie cooking and live happily.
It can lead to interesting conversations and if people would keep open minds they can learn lots.
I miss living in Japan where it wasn't that big of an issue, but man, personally, Americans *love* to get me to try and eat cows.
@tashiking: I have also had the experience of people trying to get me to eat meat. I don't get that. I really don't care what other people eat. I eat what i want. Why is it such a big issue for some people? It's really weird to me! However, I also get that about being single ... strange ...
@Everything MidnightBikeRide does is a balloon.: I had dinner at a friend's house once. Half the guests (including me) were vegetarian. Friend's mother said there was some veggie chili in the freezer to heat up and eat, so we did. We found out halfway through that that shit wasn't veggie. I felt quite ill that night.
@Jeenzy:LOL, bacon: vegetarians as cheese: vegans. Like how the vegetarian-based threads always fill up with "but I looooove bacon", if you had a room full of vegetarians and brought up veganism I think it would be nothing but "OMG cheese"
04/15/09
Also Morrissey reminded me why it's important to be a veg:
"I think animals need all the help they can get, because they have none. They have no rights. They have no protection. And so I think animals need help. And I think animals look to humans for protection, and of course humans lead them into slaughterhouses, which to me is just like an image of leading children into a slaughterhouse. There's no difference. That level of trust and… But it's a very cruel world."
Bless you Moz.
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Now I eat steak before and during my period and I don't feel like I want to die.
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I don't get why vegetarianism is so mocked, and not taken seriously. I'm not a militant veg-head, either. I don't eat meat, but my husband does, and I'll even cook it for him on the few occasions when the situation warrants. It doesn't bother me to eat out with folks who have meat on their plate and I've never once tried to persuade anyone else to go vegetarian. Despite all this, I have several friends and acquaintances who seem to be personally affronted or at the very least, amused by my lifestyle choice and feel the need to openly mock it.
I just feel like if I were a vegetarian for religious or health purposes instead of just because I don't like eating animals, people would be a lot less inclined to give me shit about it. Or maybe they wouldn't. Thoughts?
04/15/09
some people don't want to think about what they're eating, which is what you make them do (even if you say nothing and simply order your own meal with no meat ingredients). so they deflect and say the things you mention.
this used to happen to me a little bit when i first became a vegetarian, and i think it was partly because i was a bit preachy back in the day. so people retaliated with this kind of teasing.
nowadays i don't even tell anybody i'm a vegetarian when i go out to eat. i just scan the menu and pick something on it without meat.
i wouldn't take it so personally. if you can think of some kind of jokey thing to say back to them, that's probably the best route. because then they see they can't get you flustered, that their opinion means zero to you. this will usually stop them.
04/15/09
I had a friend in college who was a vegan and she was never preachy about it and the topic only came up when we were going out to dinner (she needed to make sure there were vegan options). But I've had many more friends who are militant vegans and rock "Murder King" shirts to dinner and have lectured me on how I would be a much better person if I stopped eating meat. One friend in my group refused to go to dinner with any of us if we were going to eat meat because she said it made her nauseated.
I think the bottom line is that a few preachy omnivores and a few preachy vegheads can ruin it for everyone.
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I think I'd rather get made fun of for being a vegetarian any day. Still, I don't point and make rude comments when I see people eating triple cheeseburgers.
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I've met very few vegans who aren't that way. Perhaps because I was in college and when you're young, it's fun to be militant like that, but it was annoying to say the least.
There was a big long e-mail thread at my first post-college job (at a very crunchy, eco conscious company) a woman berated management for ordering Indian food that was only vegetarian and not vegan friendly.
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it was actually harder to give up my leather clothes! but even as somebody who competed in dressage (horseback riding) i was able to find synthetic leather substitutes.
some of the poorest people on this planet in asia and africa live a purely vegan lifestyle. this discounts the vegan=rich elitist argument. whether or not somebody chooses this dietary path is purely their own decision. i realized after my first few years of being vegetarian that nobody wants to be preached at, and that most people who eat meat aren't going to give it up until they question it enough themselves.
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"A lot of people who (are veg*n) are obnoxious jerks. Therefore, (veg*nism) is wrong."
A lot of meat-eaters are obnoxious jerks. But that's not what makes meat-eating (in our current system) problematic.
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then there are the vegans who feel the need to make a scene about everything with animal products in it. the hardcore activists with the absolutist attitudes make sure they are heard.
it is human nature to notice the obnoxious person, but not the meek person standing beside them. not all vegans and vegetarians are obnoxious, but if they aren't their eating habits would not necessarily come up as a topic of conversation. have you had a discussion with everybody you know about your eating habits?
and thus, we get our reputation from the obnoxious jerks.
04/15/09
1. vegans who are so because of their health are perfectly capable of staying vegan when their prior health situation included a near death experience. i know several people who are scared to death of the hormones included in meat and dairy.
2. i love animals... but if i was certain the animals on my plate were treated well and killed in a humane manner (of which i cannot fathom) i still wouldn't eat them.
3. a cannibal asked what drove him to eat people replied that years ago, the people of his culture had no other way of maintaining a nutritious diet. as they learned to herd animals and grow fruit, they stopped eating people. i feel that many humans fall back on the idea that we have learned to herd animals, and if we are smart enough to do this in an organized fashion we should be eating meat. personally, i feel that we should move to the next step in an intelligent society. if we are smart enough to attain the appropriate level of nutrition without killing another sentient being, then we should leave meat eating behind us.
that being said, it is my personal opinion. i have friends who eat meat who just like meat. it isn't my place to judge them for it. i would, however, appreciate that they not judge me for my decisions on the matter.
04/15/09
What I dislike is eating meat because it's just "what people are supposed to do," or alternately, "what men do." If you like it, you like it, but at least consider trying vegetables! Or consider eating some tofu when I cook it! I've known people who won't do either--and it sometimes seems to be attached to an obsession with masculinity.
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It's interesting though, because the roommate is such a dude and he's vegan in the most conventionally masculine way - doesn't eat a lot of vegetables, consumes mostly a diet of fake meat products and is very very vocal about his veganism being the Right Way to Eat and Live. On the other hand, my brother's male vegan roommate has been so for over 10 years, and is one of those incredible male feminists we all look for who is into deconstructing our ideas of masculinity (he's publishing a magazine about it) and he doesn't bring his veganism up all the time as self-congratulation and he cooks delicious food. Sorry ladies, he's also not available.
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[www.mascmag.com]
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After that, I talked to some other expats living in Morocco who had been invited to their first Eids as well. They were meat-eaters and could not watch the sheep being killed and had to go inside so not to witness it. I thought it interesting that I wasn't bothered by it as much as those who ate meat, and wondered if it had to do with the connection I had made internally that this is what meat is, essentially. I often look at meat and see muscle tissue. I was also impressed because it brought back a connection between the food we eat and its source. It seemed so much more natural than buying a package of lamb from the supermarket and not knowing where it came from at all.
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I'm also very fascinated by meat, especially gourmet meats and exotic meats that I'd never tried because I was young when I was an omnivore. Part of me wishes I would have tried more local delicacies and partaken in local traditions that involved meat. I felt a bit rude refusing the sheep due to this bizarre concept of being vegetarian.
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From an ethical standpoint, I know what has to happen for an animal to be bred, raised, slaughtered, butchered, and prepared for my dining room table. I've seen a lot of it first-hand. My dad's cattle are all free-range, he raises all their food himself (alfalfa, grass, hay, straw, etc) and they only receive medication if they have a health problem. I know a lot of factory farms are not that rigorous in terms of humane standards, but--and call me cruel--it has simply never bothered me.
That's why it's sometimes difficult for me to engage in discussions of the ethics of eating meat. It's not really a facet of the omnivore/herbivore argument that has ever swayed me.
I've often been curious about how many folks here grew up on a farm, and if it changes your perceptions on the ethics of meat-eating. For instance, Dr. Temple Grandin (fascinating lady - look her up!) has worked for many years studying livestock and designing feedlot/slaughterhouse equipment that is more humane, and she eats meat too. Some people spend a lot of time around animals and have no problem using them for meat; for some people, it changes their mind forever. Has anyone else had an experience like this one way or another?
04/15/09
That said, I don't, myself, hunt. And I'm open to the possibility that were I to be presented with the opportunity to actually kill a deer or similar mammal, it would be a game-changer for me.
04/15/09
I read up on antibiotic-resistant staph bacteria in pork products, salmonella in chicken, mad cow in beef and the general filth of meat processing plants. And while I've never been struck down with serious illness from my food, not only was it not worth the chance, I wasn't going to fork over my money to these companies who weren't going to make any changes any time soon. I came out of that phase being more concientious of the animal products I do buy, particularly staying away from highly processed ones.
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I am actually having fake-bacon BTLs tonight. :)
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There is such a thing as ethical meat, dairy and eggs, and that's the only thing I'll buy anymore.
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I have never eaten meat in my life.
Even in the womb, no fish, no meat.
I do not know what it tastes like, so I can't really say if I miss it or not. I do know that my body will tell me when it needs protein, and I have to be more careful of my shopping and where I eat out, but for me the issues come with other people.
For me, not eating meat is just how I was raised. It's my culture. I don't care about "teh poor bunnies!!11!" [ok, I used to have a pet rabbit. I care] and it's not a moral issue for me. I don't force my choice on others and I get offended when other vegans and vegetarians chew me out because I'm not "with them" on that.
It's your body- eat what you like- long as it's legal. Don't force me to try meat [and yes, I have caught people trying to "hide" meat in my food] and I won't even blink when you eat your bacon burger for dinner.
And Mr.Scotvixen my SO eats meat. We have a separate cupboard in the fridge for his stuff, and mine. He cooks his own meat, we share veggie cooking and live happily.
It can lead to interesting conversations and if people would keep open minds they can learn lots.
I miss living in Japan where it wasn't that big of an issue, but man, personally, Americans *love* to get me to try and eat cows.
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People always joke about that, have you really seen people do it?! Holy crap! Can't that make you really sick?
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Mmm..cheese...*drools*
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