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Red-headed bookworm
10/20/09

In reply to Sotomayor Dressed For Success • DNA Evidence Helps Solve Cold Cases
Wow, I worked at McD's in college and the area I was in was female-dominated. The store I was at promoted a pregnant woman to a manager. Our store manager was a woman. We only had a male in management briefly. I feel kind of good about the one I worked at now. #genderdiscrimination
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redqueenmeg
10/20/09

In reply to Sotomayor Dressed For Success • DNA Evidence Helps Solve Cold Cases
Postnatal insomnia, forsooth. Seek help how? You're awake because the BABY IS and IS CRYING CONSTANTLY. Babies do not sleep. At all. Ever. #genderdiscrimination
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laureltreedaphne
10/19/09

In reply to Sotomayor Dressed For Success • DNA Evidence Helps Solve Cold Cases
So I suppose the way to relate is by smoking crack with hookers, Marion Barry?

Shut up! #genderdiscrimination
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Maritsa
10/19/09

In reply to Sotomayor Dressed For Success • DNA Evidence Helps Solve Cold Cases
And anyone listens to anything Marion Barry says because??? He has excellent judgment, after all. #genderdiscrimination
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theKP
10/19/09

In reply to Sotomayor Dressed For Success • DNA Evidence Helps Solve Cold Cases
Yeah, ladies, let's stop bringing all that sexism on ourselves. If we'd stop pushing out those babies we'd totally be equal. Listen to Nicola Pease, who's been listening to Miss Universe. If we would just understand that we're equal, that pay gap would simply melt away. /snark

On another note: please, please let Kim Ng get that job! #genderdiscrimination
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Friday
10/19/09

In reply to Sotomayor Dressed For Success • DNA Evidence Helps Solve Cold Cases
Really, Nicola Pease? Women are only bringing sexism on themselves?

Pease, PLEASE. #genderdiscrimination
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goodcheapfun
10/19/09

In reply to Sotomayor Dressed For Success • DNA Evidence Helps Solve Cold Cases
New mothers spend more time awake = New mothers sleep less. And this is news to who? #genderdiscrimination
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Zombie Ms. Skittles
10/19/09

@goodcheapfun: I was wondering the same thing. Are they sure it's insomnia and not the screaming of an infant waking them at all hours? #genderdiscrimination
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Maritsa
10/19/09

@Zombie Ms. Skittles: It's not just that. The article mentions overtiredness and anxiety and the way they feed sleeplessness.

For me, even when my husband was watching the baby and it was my turn to nap, I often had trouble falling asleep because I was so wound up...from not getting enough sleep, and worrying about whether the baby was gaining weight, etc. #genderdiscrimination
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J.D.Regent
10/15/09

In reply to SCOTUS To Decide The Fate Of "S&M Svengali"
I'm cringing already in anticipation of Scalia's questions. #soniasotomayor
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Pantra
10/15/09

In reply to SCOTUS To Decide The Fate Of "S&M Svengali"
As someone who does practice BDSM, stories like this turn my stomach. I haven't read all the details yet. But I will say that while I've met many people in the community who are really strong and ethical and cool, I've met others - dom/mes and subs, masters and slaves - who seem to me to have a screw loose. My philosophy in my own relationships is to err on the side of caution; this means that even if I'm with a sub who hasn't safeworded out of the scene and says they want more, but I judge that things are going too far, I stop. Immediately. I've been scorned for that and called vanilla, but the reality is that you're playing with fire, physically and psychologically. Too many "masters" buy into their own egocentric bullshit. #soniasotomayor
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cate3710
10/15/09

@Pantra: That's interesting. I'm not involved in BDSM, but I have read about it and the dynamics involved a little. As another commenter (KaliMama) noted downthread, "it's the sub that holds all the power in the first place. If she stops the scene, the scene is stopped."

If, as a dom, you stop the scene before the sub says so, it seems like you would be taking away that power and making them into complete submissives - denying them any real control and saying you don't trust their judgment. #soniasotomayor
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curiousgeorgiana
10/15/09

@Pantra: Agreed. It's not something I practice "casually" for that reason. I've been with my current boyfriend for 5 years and there are still expressed boundaries that he wouldn't dare cross. There's a great deal of trust involved and you really have to know a person before you play with them. #soniasotomayor
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Pantra
10/15/09

@cate3710: But I don't trust their judgement always if they're deep in sub space and dreamily going along with things that can cause major damage. I had one sub who had testicular damage from a scene with a domme (not me!) I've had another who would get so lost in their own ecstasy that they didn't realize I had drawn blood, even though that was a hard limit for them. Another had a flashback to childhood abuse and was crying over that, not crying because of what I was doing. It's a judgement call and I always let my partners know ahead of time that it's how I play. So they go into it knowing that.

And I just haven't found that the sub holds all the power in reality.... not in some really complex, entrenched dynamics. sometimes something like Stockholm Syndrome sets in or the sub feels so emotionally and financially dependent that they agree to actions they find violating. I don't do live-in type stuff but I've known people who have live-in naked slaves with no money or power of their own. It's pretty hard for a slave like that, if their masters get unethical, to reclaim their independence with a snap of their fingers.

Also as a domme, I have the right to say what I get involved in. Just because someone wants me to inflict a certain level of abuse doesn't mean that I'm obligated to provide it, if I feel the scene is making me uncomfortable. Consent goes both ways. #soniasotomayor
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Pantra
10/15/09

@curiousgeorgiana: That's what it comes down to for me.... knowing them. The depth and intensity of my scenes are incremental. It takes time to establish when someone is happy-suffering and sufferng-suffering. How quickly they go into sub space and how likely they are to remember and use their safeword if needed. If they have abuse issues, if they like to protest and struggle for fun and want me to push harder. If they like to skate along the edge of a hard limit or if just approaching one will make them freak out and not trust me. It's a delicate process and it's worth taking the time to do right for everyone involved. #soniasotomayor
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cate3710
10/15/09

@Pantra: Thanks for answering, that was really clear and makes a lot of sense. #soniasotomayor
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curiousgeorgiana
10/15/09

@Pantra: Time is an important factor-- good point. You have to experiment with each other...cautiously. #soniasotomayor
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Eldritch
10/15/09

In reply to SCOTUS To Decide The Fate Of "S&M Svengali"
Oh god, why do I keep reading SCOTUS as SCROTUM? What the hell is wrong with me? #soniasotomayor
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bluebears
10/15/09

@Eldritch: I personally hate that acronym. I always just write the Court. #soniasotomayor
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Rare Affinity
10/15/09

@bluebears: It took me quite a while to work out what the acronym stood for too. #soniasotomayor
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morninggloria
10/15/09

@Eldritch: SCOTUS sounds like it should be the name for a beetle that eats dead bodies. Combination "scarab" and "locust." #soniasotomayor
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bluebears
10/15/09

In reply to SCOTUS To Decide The Fate Of "S&M Svengali"
The Court will not be deciding whether there was "consent." That isn't what the appeal is based on at all. #soniasotomayor
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RunawayPancake
10/15/09

@bluebears:
that's what i was wondering - do you know what the appellate issue is? #soniasotomayor
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bluebears
10/15/09

@RunawayPancake: whether defendants constitutional rights were violated by an application of a law ex-post facto.

ETA: the lower court already ruled in defendants favor and remanded the case. I just read the opinion and I really don't think the government has a good case, I'm surprised the Court chose to hear this case, unless they have something new and interesting to say about ex-post facto. which, maybe.
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Edited by bluebears at 10/15/09 3:12 PM bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred

PilgrimSoul
10/15/09

In reply to SCOTUS To Decide The Fate Of "S&M Svengali"
Ok, screw the legal basis for a second: I would be interested to read reactions of S&M practicioners that push this beyond "S&M is based on consent." Sure, it is, but I wonder - and I say, I wonder, not pronounce - about how S&M can deal with so-called gray areas - i.e. where someone consents because they believe themselves to be contractually obligated to under an S&M arrangement - when it retains such a binary, safeword approach to consent. #soniasotomayor
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bluebears
10/15/09

@PilgrimSoul: right. how can any such contract be legally binding? If you and I contract that I will allow you to beat the shit out of me for 18 months for a monthly fee, and 2 month in I "breach" you don't have much of a claim since the activity was illegal to begin with.

I think this is just one of the risks you assume when you engage in S &M type activity.
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Edited by bluebears at 10/15/09 3:11 PM bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred

PilgrimSoul
10/15/09

@bluebears: Yeah my base assumption is that legally speaking this kind of contract is just plain unenforceable, for public policy reasons as well as the specific performance ones Lymed talks about below.

But I'm confused by how this kind of consent is "acceptable" for S&M purposes. And also, as a person who wants to reverse the consent burden onto the aggressor/dom, I don't know how comfortable I am with safe words anyway. Why should the onus be on the sub? #soniasotomayor
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bluebears
10/15/09

@PilgrimSoul: Right. That whole sub culture leaves me scratching my head. Consenting adults and all that, but consent becomes so murky. Always. #soniasotomayor
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thePrototype
10/15/09

@bluebears: I know there is a lot of legal speak in your thread (which is above my head), but in regards to legal/illegal activity, can't we draw parallels in contact sports and how they manage to escape the legal definition of assault because of consent and prior knowledge of what is taking place? #soniasotomayor
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bluebears
10/15/09

@thePrototype: to an extent yes. However I think that where sports differ is that each sport follows a well understood set of rules and expectations. Whereas a submissive/S &M type relationship can mean 100 different things to 100 different people. Which clouds the issue. #soniasotomayor
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Lymed
10/15/09

@bluebears: But most S&M relationships have rules and expectations between the individuals. It isn't a free for all. They require a substantial amount of trust though, because there is generally not a third party watching to make sure such rules are followed. #soniasotomayor
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bluebears
10/15/09

@Lymed: right between individuals. but rules in sports are like, universally understood. So in football a tackle is universally seen as not assault while a punch in the face is assault. I was just pointing out why I don't think the situations (contact sports and s & m) are really comparable in terms of contracting into illegal activities.
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Edited by bluebears at 10/15/09 3:35 PM bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred

Lymed
10/15/09

@bluebears: Understood. #soniasotomayor
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seejanerun
10/15/09

@PilgrimSoul: I would really be interested in seeing this "employment contract". I can see the advantage of such a thing for liability purposes. Obviously there's all the photographic evidence of her in this role and it can be construed in all kinds of way and this is the employer's way of saying "yeah this was consensual, we're both adults, for serious" in case an outside party wants to call authorities or something to that effect.

However, for her role in this to be under such a thing is dubious as fuck. That's why I'd be interested in seeing this "contract". Is it just something that clears him of liability under very circumstances (not injury), or is it something with a standard non-compete clause, or is this some fucked up indentured servitude kind of shit? I think there's a lot up in the air.

I do understand though that if there are repercussions for the submissive of any kind, even standard ones like a non-compete clause, in this "employment contract" it's going into abuse territory. I would understand how a contract might protect both parties in such a situation (I mean maybe, I don't know enough about contract law) but repercussions for the sub in any kind of contract is going way too far.

I hope this isn't coming across as victim-blaming in any way, I think this whole situation has so much potential for abuse and it would be beneficial if the law provided some guidance on how to protect all parties. #soniasotomayor
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wtfox?!
10/15/09

In reply to SCOTUS To Decide The Fate Of "S&M Svengali"
Who else is looking forward to the breathtakingly insensitive remarks that are just bound to come out of Scalia and Thomas's mouths? I know I am! #soniasotomayor
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JessickerFletcher
10/15/09

@wtfox?!: Ugh. Don't get me started on Scalia. #soniasotomayor
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Sputnik_Sweetheart
10/15/09

@wtfox?!: If by "looking forward" you mean sharpening knives in anticipation of having to stab my ears and eyes , then me! #soniasotomayor
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ritualtheory
10/15/09

@wtfox?!: Yesss...that's why I'm looking at this case with a squint between my fingers. Then again, the prospect of listening to either of those bullying fuckbags discuss the legal intricacies of "knife play" is too gruesomely promising to ignore. #soniasotomayor
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Lymed
10/15/09

In reply to SCOTUS To Decide The Fate Of "S&M Svengali"
While she may have signed an employment contract, if she later changed her mind, he could not force her to perform to the contract. If somebody breaks an employment contract, courts never force the person to fulfill personal services aspects of a contract (meaning personally doing the job) because they consider it akin to slavery to force somebody to perform a personal service. #soniasotomayor
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ritualtheory
10/15/09

In reply to SCOTUS To Decide The Fate Of "S&M Svengali"
Wow. Aside from what probably seems to most of us like a grotesque power trip to the nth degree, this brings up fascinating and extremely tricky questions about consent and responsibility. Of course it's entirely plausible that someone could willingly deign to be a "sex slave," could sign a contract to that effect, could even find it sexually and/or psychologically gratifying to be the submissive person in that power dynamic. But what if this individual has a history of being abused? What if s/he has a mental illness that interferes with her or his ability to negotiate such dynamics in a knowledgeable, agentive way? And so on, and so forth...I look forward (with trepidation) to the Court's responses. #soniasotomayor
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Where The Mild Things Are
10/15/09

@ritualtheory: Yeah - I feel like this is one of those situations that's almost impossible to comment on without knowing more details. I'd be interested to know what positions/thoughts the other women who worked for him have.

Also, I don't know much about S&M sex play, but actually carving someone's skin with a knife seems excessively extreme. #soniasotomayor
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Lymed
10/15/09

@ritualtheory: I think this is very different from a typical S&M relationship because of the employment contract. It adds a different power dynamic. My understanding is that even the submissive person holds some power over the dominant person in an S&M relationship - even if that power is basically attraction. Of course, at the same time, we allow people to sign employment contracts where they go into a ring and get punched. Or where they are a stunt double putting themselves at great risk. Or even sign a contract to take experimental medication that can have adverse reactions. #soniasotomayor
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ritualtheory
10/15/09

@Lymed: Exactly. Maybe (in my dreams) this particular case will shake the foundations whereby it's usually presumed that just because a contract is signed, a situation is legitimate and reasonably equitable. At the very least, it's worth a thousand discussions... #soniasotomayor
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Kali Mama
10/15/09

@Lymed: Any decent S&M person will tell you it's the sub that holds all the power in the first place.

If she stops the scene, the scene is stopped. No contract will force her to participate further. #soniasotomayor
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