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New York, 8:57 AM
Sat Nov 7
62 posts in the last 24 hours
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11/04/09
I could be around children there and NOT EVEN KNOW IT.
I think our society "hates kids" [as someone without and who never wants kids I find that very hard to believe] because their bad behaviors have been changed into "well he/she is just a child".
No he/she is an AMERICAN child. Screaming, crying and throwing tantrums is ok here. Even in Italy I didn't see the same sort of behavior. #children
11/02/09
Here's the thing about our general dislike of kids (which does exist, at least compared to other countries I've lived in). And I'm going deep here, and I will definitely ramble, but what the hey.
In this society, we "like" people who are hetero, white, male, physically and mentally "able", slender, strong, healthy, rich, and within a certain age group: i.e. powerful, and in "control." I could add lots more statuses but you get the idea.
Anyone who doesn't fall into these categories gets crap. Yes, this includes children (and many elders, for that matter). True, we were all children once, but most of us have been darn glad to finally grow up and not be dependent and helpless and lacking self-control or any control...for those of us for whom that is the case. Once we get out of that status, many people forget what it was really like.
However temporary and/or illusory the state of "adult independence" may be, we really value it here, and like to pretend that that is the standard for human existence, partly because of our individualistic leanings.
We don't like to see people out of control because self-control is one of our core values. Kids practically define "lack of self-control."
I am really glad that those who don't want children now have the choice to be child-free. People who don't want kids should not have them, full stop. This is ideal for all involved. And I do know about the unfair social pressure faced by many who choose to be child-free, which includes most of my close female friends. It's wrong, and smartass retorts to those "when will you grow up and have kids" remarks are appreciated and encouraged.
Some people can and do construct daily lives that include limited contact with children--again, probably ideal for all involved. However, this society at large is child-producing, possibly by definition (unless we get a hell of a lot better about immigration!) Let me overtly state my real point:
To live in this society means to live in a society of families, a society that includes children as much as it includes any other individual or group.
I don't like having noisy, intrusive people of any kind in a place where that's not socially expected any more that most others do. But I also see a huge gap between a few socially allowable, "kid friendly" places and "normal life venues" that could be vastly improved. Children are in fact a part of "normal life" in this society.
If you don't like people who are inconvenient, demanding, or noisy, or who poop and barf unexpectedly, or who are seriously socially inept, then you may limit your contact with them to some extent. (This may include other people than children!) But other than starting a child-free commune (which I could actually see working...) you're not going to be able to completely eradicate contact with children.
We feel uncomfortable about people who do something or have some condition that we feel unpleasantly vulnerable to in ourselves. If you feel uncomfortable around children, can you be honest enough with yourself to feel what it's about underneath? (Other than something like poking you in the eye with a stick, which is of course just uncomfortable regardless!)
Is it their lack of social boundaries that feels embarrassing to you? (<--That one's mine. "Leave me alone, you complete stranger!") Is it their helplessness to help themselves that feels scary? Is it their messiness and lack of self-control that triggers anxiety and irritation? Is their lower ability in just about anything at all that feels annoying? What is it for you personally?
(Gosh, now I better actually read the linked article... :O ) #children
11/02/09
I dislike their lack of self-control, which again, I know they cannot do much about. There are many reasons why I avoid contact with kids, but when I do encounter them, I do my best to be polite and pleasant to them, because they deserve that just as much as anyone else does.
Thanks for writing this comment - I think it's a really, really good one. #children
11/02/09
If you don't want to occasionally have people in restaurants and planes roll their eyes at your children, if you never want to feel like your kids are being a nuisance, then you have a few choices. You can not have kids (because all kids get annoying sometimes, and usually at the time when it's most likely to humiliate you), or you can make every effort to go to mostly family-friendly places until your kids get older.
I don't hate kids, and I don't hate parents. But I hate shrieking and crying and obnoxious behavior from anyone. And I don't think I should have to stifle my annoyance just because being a parent is stressful. I don't think we should be kicking kids off planes all the time (although, as the uproar over this one incident indicates, we don't), but what happens if we all pretend annoying kids aren't being annoying?
The never learn how fucking annoying they're being, and they become annoying adults. #children
11/02/09
My main concern though, is teaching my child to be respectful and polite, not to ensure your comfort. However you choose to express your annoyance is none of my business.
The worst are people in the supermarket. I have gotten rude comments, dirty looks and been admonished by childless strangers. I got one yesterday because I ALMOST ran into someone with my cart. I apologized and still got the stinkeye.
I get the feeling from many of these comments (not just yours, necessarily) that parents should just stay home or employ a sitter for every outing. #children
11/02/09
If I left my kids at home and hired a sitter every time I needed to go out in public for errands and whatnot, we would not have enough money to eat. Some adults just need to suck up the fact that they have to share the planet with unpleasant people, be they adults or children. #children
11/02/09
It's just unreasonable to expect other people to respond to a toddler's tantrum with neutrality or looks/acts of sympathy. People who say rude things are taking it too far (and also likely escalating a situation that really doesn't need it), but sometimes parents are oversensitive about the nasty looks they get. People are just annoyed, and unlike the parent in question, aren't really allowed to do anything about it (I would never dare say anything to someone else's kid about his behavior, but I've certainly thought about it when his parents don't intervene quickly enough).
I just don't think we need to elevate it to the level of "Society hates kids now!" This is just one of the things you have to deal with as a parent of young kids. It passes. My eye roll is really pretty insignificant in the scheme of things, and is just my way of expressing frustration with a highly annoying situation over which I have no control. #children
11/02/09
Which is pretty much the same sentiment we have for adults.
Case in point--was just at Disneyworld with four children, all of whom were generally very well behaved. No public tantrums, no screaming, no bad behavior that was not instantly curtailed by parents.
We were in a restaurant, and a child a few tables over began shrieking in that really ear-splitting register that only young children can hit...and didn't stop. Kept going. For over a minute. The little kids at our table covered our ears and looked pained, and two generations of parents growled to each other that the parents needed to take that kid outside, damnit. And you know what? They had kids. They've raised them successfully to Not Do That. They've been in that situation, and they've taken the steps they felt were appropriate. As far as I'm concerned, they absolutely get to make that judgement call. The kid needed to be taken outside or shushed, because he or she was making life actively unpleasant for dozens of people.
If you have kids, great. But your job is not just protecting them from the world, it's also protecting the world from them.
Hell, if I get a dog, it's my job to keep it healthy, happy, and not hit by cars...but I ALSO am responsible for it not biting people, not barking all night long, and not crapping on the neighbor's lawn, even if it's inconvenient to me to do these things. If we expect that level of care over an animal, why do people get so indignant when we also expect that level of care over a human being? #children
11/02/09
I hate:
loud teenagers with curses and shoving matches hanging around the mall and who crowd out the sidewalks and won't even let little old ladies go by
groups of old men standing around talking about the tits of everyone who goes by
men with important messages on their t-shirts like FUCK THE PHILLIES
people with lots of expired coupons (that they will contest are still okay) in front of me at the supermarket
But I deal with them as best I can.
The same with a crying kid.
There was a picture posted on Metafilter not too long ago that showed a very tired-looking obese woman who was allowing her son or grandson to have a swig of Diet Coke. All the commenters went mad pointing out her terrible mothering, etc.
But when I looked at her, I thought, "I bet her child support check was probably late this month, and her kid just threw a tantrum in the shoe store, and her mother just went back in for more chemo, and her older kid is SOMEWHERE out there with that awful kid who deals drugs, and she can't leave this spot because her boyfriend is supposed to meet her here and his cellphone isn't charged, and if he comes and she's not here he might get mad and leave them without a ride and go to a bar because sometimes he does that."
That's what I thought. #children
11/02/09
11/02/09
11/02/09
I don't necessarily agree with the Benadryl (it's not good for young children), but parents definitely need to do whatever they can to occupy/entertain their kids on flights. Gum, tylenol, etc., in case it hurts their little ears, a few new books, small (non-noisy) toys, color books and crayons, maybe a portable DVD player, movie, and headphones if one can afford it.
Breastfeeding was the best pacifier I had on flights when my kids were under a year. Yes, I got dirty looks and comments from people who didn't want to see the underside of my boob while I latched the kid on, so I told them that I could stop and they could listen to my kid scream, or they can look away or put a blanket over their heads while I nurse my kid to sleep. #children
11/02/09
11/02/09
11/02/09
Boobs are for male sexual enjoyment, not for feeding babies! Duh! ;-) #children
11/02/09
And he may be a "nuisance" to you, but he's got a valid reason; He's one, and he can't reason. #children
11/02/09
Also people should be responsible for distracting themselves. bring ear plugs, Ipods, books and blankets for yourself. If you're subjected to bad kids cause of bad parenting it's one thing but if its just normal child behavior despite good parenting- keep your discomfort to yourself. #children
11/02/09
11/02/09
11/02/09
If we valued children at all, there would not be well over a million homeless kids in this country. #children
11/02/09
11/02/09
The number of 1 million has been used for some years now in homeless advocacy circles. Just like unemployment numbers (which are based on those filing for benefits) the numbers of homeless are much higher. I live in a place where there are no shelters - but people live in cars, in campgrounds, etc. No one is counting them. #children
11/02/09
11/02/09
You know what? Children are NOT a lifestyle choice. #children
11/02/09
11/02/09
I should say that I am not in favour of letting kids do whatever they like wherever they like. But the tone of most of these comments is anti-child and anti-parent. #children
11/02/09
I agree that U.S. society can be more family friendly, but not in terms of accommodating young children everywhere at every time. Parents should be focusing more on pushing for things like universal, low-cost childcare, quality education and flexible work schedules. Calling other people's annoyance with crying babies and misbehaving toddlers "discrimination" just sounds like whining.
11/02/09
Saying that kids are a lifestyle choice, and that no one else in society needs to deal with that parent's decision to have kids trivializes something that is fundamental to human existence.
I will forgive you for accusing me of whining. I don't take back the word "discrimination", however, since deciding that you have the right not to hear babies cry or toddlers scream (and acting pissed off as a result) is prejudiced and discriminatory. #children
11/02/09
And yes, it's a lifestyle. Having kids changes your life permanently. I don't see how not being able to undo that means it's not a lifestyle choice. But please don't put words into my mouth. Describing having a family as choosing a lifestyle is not to say it isn't important or doesn't have implications for the rest of us. That's what this whole thread is about.
I wasn't suggesting that "no one else...needs to deal with that parents' decision", but that the main responsibility for socializing children (not babies, of course) lies with their parents. The rest of us shouldn't be scolded as humorless child-haters who must patiently grin and bear bad behavior from anyone. #children
11/02/09
I have the right not to hear your child scream it's head off the same as I have the right not to listen to you scream your head off. There's a difference between legitimate "I'm hungry" "My diaper is dirty" "I'm teething" or "I hurt" cries, all of which can be remedied by an aware parent and "I'm gonna scream 'cause I want to scream and you're not paying attention to me so I'm gonna scream LOUDER," which is the point at which you take your child aside and teach him/her about appropriate behavior, or you leave. If an adult were displaying the same behaviour in a place of business s/he would be removed. As the child does not have the means to reason, it is up to the parent to make an attempt to control the child's behaviour. If the parent refuses to do so, yes, I do get to bitch about it. Sorry if that hurts your feelings. #children
11/02/09
11/02/09
Nothing defeats a parent's argument faster that the self-righteous "You don't have kids, you wouldn't understand." Having kids =/= good parent, and not having kids =/= no idea about parenting. I've been caregive to enough children to know a)I've no desire to handle children professionally b) how to safely and sanely make them shut the hell up. #children
11/02/09
11/02/09
My parents wouldn't allow us kids to go with them anywhere until we'd absorbed basic manners. Basic manners being: be quiet, keep your hands to yourself, stick next to mom or dad and don't annoy other people. When we were too young to assimilate those rules, either mom or dad would stay home with us while the other ran the errands. They never went out together unless they could get a sitter, because we couldn't go with them until we were old enough to behave. This was a sacrifice they understood they were supposed to make as parents, since it was their job to civilize us before unleashing us on the public.
I don't have it in for all kids, nor for all parents. The ones I have no time for are the parents who've decided parenting is too hard to bother doing, and the kids cursed with such sorry excuses for parents. #children
11/02/09
11/02/09
11/02/09
I'm in my 30s, so yes, times were different then. But I was raised by a single mom working two jobs with two kids, and we were lower middle class, with no money to spare. If I or my brother threw a tantrum in public, we left. Yes, it was often the only time my mother had to run errands, and they didn't get done, but we misbehaved- we were removed from the environment. We were not taken to nice restaurants. Big Boy (anyone remember those?) with their $2.99 buffet was a huge treat. The library was a sacred space, which we loved and enjoyed, as long as we behaved. I didn't go on an airplane until I was eight. Our vacations were to family-friendly places within driving distance. Yes, my mother missed some family occasions and even a few funerals because we didn't fly. Know what? People understood, because she had young children. She devoted a lot of time, effort, and energy into making sure we were prepared to be good citizens of the world. Did I get punished when I misbehaved? Yes. My toys or books were taken away, or I wasn't allowed to watch TV, or I couldn't have sleepovers, or I had to stay in my room with no distractions for a period of time. Also, as my mom was a teacher, damn right I would have to write "I will not ____" a hundred times. After a few incidents, I avoided the behaviors that resulted in those punishments.
Parenting is hard. It is expensive, and it requires sacrifice. When you choose to have children, you do so knowing all that. Expecting society and the common dictates of decency, courtesy, and behavior to change so that you can continue living exactly the way you did before you had children is selfish and unfair. I learned these rules in my childhood, I learned appropriate behavior, I learned about consequences; so yes, I was a child once, and occasionally a bratty one, but I was not forced on society at large before I was ready to behave, so that argument doesn't ring true.
11/02/09
11/02/09
As to whether or not I expect parents to handle or deal with their child when the child is behaving badly? Yes, I do expect that. It's called parenting.
11/02/09
I think affordable childcare, better education, making sure all children are wanted, and the de-comercialization of childhood are more worthy goals for us as a society to work towards than someone's "right" to attend an R-rated film with their kids in tow. #children
11/02/09
Yes, I understand kids are going to act up. I understand they will throw tantrums. But, it is a parent's JOB to show them (in a non-violent way) that such behavior will not be tolerated.
I threw a tantrum once in a store. My mother, though it was the only time she had to go shopping, picked me up, put me in the car, took me home and sent me to my room. When I would touch things in the store and pull them off of shelves, she would stop what she was doing and repremand me. If I was being loud she would tell me to use a quiet voice because we were indoors. There were always consequences for my actions and my mother ALWAYS followed through with her threats. I knew that if I threw a fit in the store and she said, "Sev, stop it or we're leaving" we really would leave if I didn't stop.
I don't think expecting parents to teach their children how to behave in public is "anti-child." #children
11/02/09
11/02/09
In my experience, people with normal, well behaved children feel embarrassment or at least a desire to make it stop when their kid is going ape in public, even when there's nothing they can really do. It's the crappy parents who feel like their lack of parental skills shouldn't be a reason for other people to get annoyed with them that adopt the "Kids throw tantrums!" Mantra.
Also: a lot of parents seem completely oblivious to the fact that we, as a society, divide ourselves up based on age. You can't order off the kids menu as an adult. You can't go to seventh grade when you are eight months old. You shouldn't be in an R rated horror movie when you're five. Some of these rules seem arbitrary, but many are based in sound logic (Five year olds are probably going to freak the hell out at a horror movie, you literally cannot attend seventh grade when you're two months old).
I don't hate kids. I hate bad parents. I hate parents who try to selfishly drag their child along to inappropriate places and then ignore their crappy behavior because they're otherwise occupied and/or too lazy to actually parent, then turn around and place the burden of putting up with their ill behaved children on the public. #children
11/02/09
11/02/09
If we were a sensible society, we'd have "quiet flights" where extraneous noise isn't tolerated, at all, period. We'd have "family fun flights" where cartoons are playing and tantrums can be more tolerated. And we'd have something inbetween. The problem is that the minute any airline tries to self-segregate, some parent (or some non-parent) is going to get up in arms about not being allowed onboard the special flight. The places I've seen that try to exclude children get a moralistic beatdown over it.
Equality is often translated as entitlement in the US, unfortunately. I think the result is that we all lose a bit of comfort, but, hey, at least we're all "equal". #children
11/02/09
11/02/09
11/02/09
Do chores, but make sure you get all the best ones!
Avoid nagging, pretend you like your wife!
Most of the comments are bitching about how underapprecaited men are. Here's one of my favorites:
"How about you do the shopping, take the kids to the park, dig the garden, paint the walls and I may think about giving you two minutes after Match of the Day :)"
Society has such low expectations of men, yet women can always improve. #marriage
11/02/09
11/02/09
There is a definite trend in the openness of disliking kids, and it kinda one of those cool things to do right now, but I have a hard time believing that people just started doing it. I think we're just more open about it now.
People don't hate kids, mostly. They hate inconvenience. Your child represents that. One of the things about kids that is really frustrating is that you can't do much about it when they misbehave and they aren't yours. When Jackass McGee constantly shines the light in my eye, I can lean over and ask him to stop. The only drama will come from him. When Five Year Old McChildpants does it, I have his or her parents to contend with.
And the dreaded "children do that" argument. For some things, it's completely true. Things like... crying. Or pooping. That stuff happens. That doesn't mean anyone else has to like it. At all. In so many of these situations, yeah, it's something that kids do, but that they should stop doing. "Teachable moments" and all that. When your kid is kicking the airplane seat in front of them, you do your best to stop them. If they are old enough, you explain why they can't. Traveling with kids is hard, yes, but them's the breaks, really. Don't hand me the excuse that "boys will be boys" when your son is trying to steal my textbook and jump on the table. That's the part where you should step in.
And the "that's a lot of anger and hatred to be carrying with you" shit. I am not an angry person. I do not spend my days seething about the existence of kids. When one comes up and wipes a fucking booger on my leg, I am angry. Don't be so condescending. Reacting to an article doesn't mean I spend all my time thinking about it and dreaming up situations in which I can be justifiably angry.
The end! :D #children
11/02/09
11/02/09
I don't hate children but I don't like it if they're leaning over my booth at a restaurant pulling my hair and the parents just laugh it off and do nothing to stop it. No, it's not "kids DO that!" As a parent, it's their job to say "Honey, no. We don't pull hair." #children
11/02/09
11/02/09
@Sev: Oh man, that happened to me once. I was so surprised that I shrieked, which made the kid recoil in horror. It worked, but the parents/caretakers just did nothing. Nothing!
@Rroseselavy: I know many delightful parents that do a good job helping their kids navigate the world and be considerate of others, and I feel like that's the philosophy they ascribe to. I do not mind going out to dinner with one friend couple and their three year old child, because he is very well-behaved and polite. He doesn't throw tantrums (he did all of once, and was quickly removed from the scene and that was that) and he doesn't throw things or hit. He can get cranky sometimes, but yeah, that's about it. It's always the annoying ones that seem to stand out more, since the well-behaved ones blend into the background and you hardly notice that they're there. #children