The assumption that Fiqah wouldn't have felt uncomfortable or harassed if she'd found the police officer attractive is interesting, and I think it merits some discussion.
Literally within the last hour I told a friend of mine, only semi-jokingly, that I tolerate more creepster-level flirtation from guys I find hot than from guys I don't.
And I wonder if in some ways that makes me complicit in our societal acceptance of this kind of behavior toward women.
On the other hand, no one seems cute when he's intimidating me and using his power to assert his control over me and my body. So it's also possible that perception of a guy as attractive hinges on my feeling okay being around him, and not being threatened by it.
On the other other hand, sometimes the element of danger is itself attractive. So what are our responsibilities, as individuals and as a society, to solve these problems and to address these problematic (but complicated and possibly not always completely untrue) assumptions?
@sequined: Well, wanted attention is wanted attention, you know? If a guy won't accept your negative body language or words(which creeps tend not to do) that's scary. If you're into him, it's an entirely different thing.
I don't know exactly what you mean by "creepster-level flirtation from [hot] guys" Isn't it the part where they try to push past our discomfort what makes their behavior creepy?
At any rate, I think the responsibility rests on men to respect and not objectify or attack us since they have more physical and social power. I don't think you're at fault for perpetuating rapey behaviors.
First of all, thanks for the really thoughtful analysis, Latoya.
I watched all the videos, and the hip hop stuff really struck a chord with me. I've been a fan since I was a teenager, and will remain a fan, but this really reminds me how important it is to pay attention to the attitudes reflected in the music I listen to. When I was in high school, everyone was listening to Snoop. The girls I knew (myself included) liked it as much as the boys, but I remember feeling really uncomfortable hearing my boyfriend and male friends singing along to things like "Bitches ain't shit but hos and tricks." You can like the beats and the style, but you can't ignore the message. And that message is really insidious to young women.
This is not an indictment of all the positive hip hop out there, which gives you beats and style without a heavy dose of misogyny. But it does remind me to listen a little harder.
I work at the University of Kentucky, and Green Dot has been an amazing success story. The Violence Intervention and Prevention Center, which runs the program on campus, does some great work. They even brought in Michael Kimmel to talk about the shared responsibility of both genders in stopping violence (e.g. just because a man isn't *personally* raping someone doesn't mean he can abdicate all responsibility for creating a safe climate on campus). The program is in 20 states and on 35 campuses so far.
If you'd like to read more, the program is going into high schools next year, with a $2 million CDC grant to back it. The grant will allow investigators to actually establish the efficacy of the program in creating attitude change and reducing acts of violence:
@madeofawesome: I'm just a desk jockey, and not directly involved with Green Dot except through the university administration angle (I'm just a big fan of the program who has had a chance to do some work with them). But do feel free to private message me if you'd like to establish whether we've met :-)
As much as I appreciate this article, rather read a piece that actually looks at how programs are defining "high risk" and "rape" than one that just questions how they are defining these terms.
A quick google scholar search of John D. Foubert brought up 950 articles. This one seems to give a pretty good overview of what these programs aim to do and why they focus on some groups more than others. [publications.naspa.org]
These are programs people make money off of, but them seem pretty solid. Most college speakers make money anyway.
I can't find a link to his program, but I did find this one [www.jacksonkatz.com] for people who want to check out the training.
We had a quick seminar on rape when I went for college orientation. The two things that I remember most are the (female) officer telling us that if we report rape to a female officer she will be less sympathetic and more judgemental than a man and that even if you have a lot of evidence there is only a small chance of the rapist getting into trouble. There was a lot of "Watch your drink and don't be a whore" and absolutely no "Hey guys, don't rape people".
@IBleedGlitter: The High Priestess of Tinsel: ...I don't know any female officers who would not be sympathetic to a rape victim. She had separate issues and it's unfair that she pushed them on young women and men.
Back when I was an RA, I can't tell you how many hours I spent banging my head against the wall over the sexual assault prevention programs. So often the whole thing would end up sounding like, "You're gonna get raped; don't wear a skirt." Sort of like, "It's gonna rain, don't wear sandals." Like assault was just inevitable. No one ever said, "Hey, dudes, don't roofie your dates!"
In fact, the woman who did the assault talk spent fifteen minutes talking about which over the counter medications could be used like a roofie (she specifically talked about NyQuil). Then the next presenter was from the health center, and he handed out a baggie of sample medications... including NyQuil. ...and the whole back row of frat boys high fived.
@rodmanstreet: ugh, that's pretty much how my experience went, too. and i tried so hard to get the administration to change their system and actually teach men how to not rape people.
of course women should take measures to protect their own safety, but this type of approach seems like victim blaming before the woman is made to be a victim.
@rodmanstreet: My stomach dropped at the last sentence you wrote. I kinda want to cry. That's really scary. They were probably just doing it as a joke, but... I don't know. I'm all wigged out now.
1. These are cases that would be covered in civil court, therefore the parties can agree by contract to arbitrate instead of using the judicial system.
2. There's no criminal aspect that can be prosecuted by the US courts because these actions are taking place in foreign countries so there's no US jurisdiction and no military court jurisdiction (since these are contractors).
@sportz.star: ok, so there's no US jurisdiction and no military court jurisdiction. I hate to ask this question, but is rape not illegal in Iraq? Are Iraqi courts functional at all? Or would that be such a shitshow of failure that its not even worth trying?
@CherriSpryte: Don't know details, but if I had to guess, the political implications of the Iraqi courts bringing actions against American contractors, who are ostensibly there to rebuild their country, are probably a not insignificant part of why there aren't trials in Iraq. Also, depending on the legal system and interpretations of Sharia (sp?) law, there can be very different views on rape than what we may have in the US.
@sportz.star: Most of the difference in arbitration comes down to lack of a jury and lack of an open record - the judges are usually the same people formerly employed by regular courts. The panel judges must approved by both parties prior to initiation of proceedings.
Arbitration can be appealed to a proper court as well, but only for gross procedural errors.
*IANAL - but I asked a litigator friend about this who has very recent experience in arbitration, after decades in court. Also - I am not "pro-arbitration" - just kicking a little info out there.
@CherriSpryte: It's written into the Iraqi constitution that US contractors are not subject to Iraqi law. Which is not surprising, since US contractors probably wrote that constitution.
@somnambulance: So if US contractors are not subject to Iraqi criminal law, and also not subject to US criminal law, does that mean no one can prosecute their employees for crimes?
This is single-handedly the most frustrating/horrible situation ever. The silver lining is that now everyone can see the major flaws of binding arbitration (it's unconstitutional - arbitration is a good idea for petty disputes but not cases like this one). Tracy Barker is truly a hero. To go through something like that and continue fighting no matter how terrible/unjust the situation may be is the definition of heroic.
What's really ironic and unfortunate is that although Beck lost in court his fight to shut down "GlennBeckRapedAndMurderedAYoun... . com" - the site's owner felt that he had made his point and voluntarily turned over control of the site to Beck. Now it is Beck who is using the word rape casually and without satire, but effectively, in furtherance of his agenda; The man has no shame whatsoever.
The "GlennBeckRaped.... .com" resolution story is actually a great read, and includes the WIPO filings and the personal letter to Beck from the domain-holder: [techdirt.com]
I got banned from our old sister site consumerist.com for daring to question the journalistic integrity of an author that would claim they were being "raped by credit cards."
I'm not sure if you all know this, but apparently feminists take everything to seriously, and have no understanding of the definition of the word. Well, that's what I gleaned from the conversation at least.
@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: Yeah, I was totally oppressing the guy who lived down the hall from me in college when I suggested he had not, in fact, been raped by a chemistry exam.
It's so silly to get hung up on the meaning of words, isn't it? Sigh.
@bluebears: It's also weird that every single feminist is totally unaware that apparently "rape" has a meaning other than unwanted sexual violation. Actually no, we do know there is another definition but A. YOU assholes aren't using the word correctly even by that definition and B. it doesn't fucking matter. Find another word. It's always the people that don't give a shit about vocabulary in any other situation that are suddenly up in arms about me trying to CENSOR their word choice.
@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: I know. Like all the fuckers that are suddenly passionate defenders of the Bill of Rights when you try to take their rape-simulation video games away.
Ugh, I had to stop half way through. They think they are all so above being raped themselves that they can use the word as it pleases them, no matter how uncomfortable it makes the rest of us.
05:38 PM
Literally within the last hour I told a friend of mine, only semi-jokingly, that I tolerate more creepster-level flirtation from guys I find hot than from guys I don't.
And I wonder if in some ways that makes me complicit in our societal acceptance of this kind of behavior toward women.
On the other hand, no one seems cute when he's intimidating me and using his power to assert his control over me and my body. So it's also possible that perception of a guy as attractive hinges on my feeling okay being around him, and not being threatened by it.
On the other other hand, sometimes the element of danger is itself attractive. So what are our responsibilities, as individuals and as a society, to solve these problems and to address these problematic (but complicated and possibly not always completely untrue) assumptions?
07:00 PM
I don't know exactly what you mean by "creepster-level flirtation from [hot] guys" Isn't it the part where they try to push past our discomfort what makes their behavior creepy?
At any rate, I think the responsibility rests on men to respect and not objectify or attack us since they have more physical and social power. I don't think you're at fault for perpetuating rapey behaviors.
05:37 PM
I watched all the videos, and the hip hop stuff really struck a chord with me. I've been a fan since I was a teenager, and will remain a fan, but this really reminds me how important it is to pay attention to the attitudes reflected in the music I listen to. When I was in high school, everyone was listening to Snoop. The girls I knew (myself included) liked it as much as the boys, but I remember feeling really uncomfortable hearing my boyfriend and male friends singing along to things like "Bitches ain't shit but hos and tricks." You can like the beats and the style, but you can't ignore the message. And that message is really insidious to young women.
This is not an indictment of all the positive hip hop out there, which gives you beats and style without a heavy dose of misogyny. But it does remind me to listen a little harder.
05:07 PM
If you'd like to read more, the program is going into high schools next year, with a $2 million CDC grant to back it. The grant will allow investigators to actually establish the efficacy of the program in creating attitude change and reducing acts of violence:
[uknow.uky.edu]
and
[www.newswise.com]
05:11 PM
/creeper
05:15 PM
04:59 PM
04:44 PM
A quick google scholar search of John D. Foubert brought up 950 articles. This one seems to give a pretty good overview of what these programs aim to do and why they focus on some groups more than others. [publications.naspa.org]
These are programs people make money off of, but them seem pretty solid. Most college speakers make money anyway.
I can't find a link to his program, but I did find this one [www.jacksonkatz.com] for people who want to check out the training.
04:39 PM
04:58 PM
04:38 PM
In fact, the woman who did the assault talk spent fifteen minutes talking about which over the counter medications could be used like a roofie (she specifically talked about NyQuil). Then the next presenter was from the health center, and he handed out a baggie of sample medications... including NyQuil. ...and the whole back row of frat boys high fived.
04:48 PM
of course women should take measures to protect their own safety, but this type of approach seems like victim blaming before the woman is made to be a victim.
04:51 PM
05:31 PM
04:34 PM
03:28 PM
03:31 PM
1. These are cases that would be covered in civil court, therefore the parties can agree by contract to arbitrate instead of using the judicial system.
2. There's no criminal aspect that can be prosecuted by the US courts because these actions are taking place in foreign countries so there's no US jurisdiction and no military court jurisdiction (since these are contractors).
That's how I understand it.
03:40 PM
03:50 PM
03:53 PM
Arbitration can be appealed to a proper court as well, but only for gross procedural errors.
*IANAL - but I asked a litigator friend about this who has very recent experience in arbitration, after decades in court. Also - I am not "pro-arbitration" - just kicking a little info out there.
04:48 PM
05:41 PM
07:28 PM
Why do these things still suprise me?
03:27 PM
12:47 PM
The "GlennBeckRaped.... .com" resolution story is actually a great read, and includes the WIPO filings and the personal letter to Beck from the domain-holder:
[techdirt.com]
11:55 AM
I'm not sure if you all know this, but apparently feminists take everything to seriously, and have no understanding of the definition of the word. Well, that's what I gleaned from the conversation at least.
12:14 PM
It's so silly to get hung up on the meaning of words, isn't it? Sigh.
12:40 PM
Oh, wait ...
12:55 PM
01:00 PM
#tips
01:02 PM
01:35 PM
11:33 AM
11:31 AM
11:29 AM