If the school has done its job, then they have nothing to fear by letting him attend a secular prom. That they are raising such a fuss leads me to believe that they know that they have not done a good job, that all their attempts to lock out evil influences have gone for naught because this is not the Middle Ages, and as the age-old axiom goes, the more you deny something to someone, the more they want it.
I went to a Christian school that didn't allow dances (we had "banquets" instead, haha) and listening to secular music wasn't necessarily disallowed, but deffo discouraged (I remember having pictures of Courtney Love and Hole on my clear binder and feeling like a super rebel).
The great thing about this is that I went to public school later, and you know what? There was waay more drugs and illicit sex going on at the Christian school than there was at the public school. Crazy rich kids!!
@Phyllis Nefler: Where I grew up there was even more dating amongst the religious private school kids than the public school ones. Public school kids had to face each other in the the halls every day, so there was intimidation preventing hook ups, whereas the the religious private school kids were separated by gender, so would hook up like crazy when they had social mixers.
"One wonders how England expects Frost to handle his 'lustful thoughts' once he leaves the confines of Heritage Christian and heads out into the real world"
Intolerance is a terrible thing. I don't agree with anything the school stands for but they have a right to believe in whatever they want. That's what democracy is all about. Tolerance. I think the school is being a bit foolish since Tyler seems to be one of their successes. He wasn't sneaking off to the prom; he followed the rules and did everything his school said he should. They should be so fucking proud of him instead of putting him through such an ordeal. Maybe they stop clutching the bible so tightly and read it. Jesus said a lot about compassion and judgment. A refresher course is definitely in order.
@bananastand: That's where it starts... first a hand on a shoulder... then they're holding hands... then comes the kissing... and before you know it, fornication!!!!
@dj_chick: @NefariousNewt: Yes, as you probably figured, she grew up to be an Enormous Slut. An Enormous Slut who reads Jezebel! An Enormous Slut who's probably reading Jezebel RIGHT NOW!
@brokestephenswoman: Yes. Jesus is cool, his ideas are awesome, and my form of Christianity is more Jesus and spirit driven-- which, contrary to what "Jesus freaks" display, is a pretty accepting, tolerant way of life.
@brokestephenswoman: Sadly, too many Christians/Catholics don't read the words of their own savior. It's what killed my faith in the Catholic Church, though not my faith in God.
Okay, I can understand the school being able to deny him the graduation ceremony, but can they actually deny him his high school diploma? Cause um, that shit wouldn't fly here and is messed up.
@haguenite: No, I'm pretty sure they'll just deny him the opportunity to walk with his class on g-day. I know for some, the ceremony is big deal, but I always found this to be such a LOL punishment.
@kysm: Dude, I know! I skipped mine and went to Vegas instead - never regretted it. It's really important to some people, I know, but it's not something I've ever worried about much.
Believe me, this kind of thing is nothing unusual for northwest Ohio (I live north of Finlay in Toledo). In some ways I can see his point that school rules shouldn't apply outside of school, but he did know what he was getting into when he signed up.
It seems like a lot of people on here keep saying that his parents put him there and so he has no choice. Yes, they put him there when he was like 4. I got to choose what highschool I went to and it was up to me if I wanted to stay in my K-8 school for the jhs portion. So he receives no accountability in this whatsoever? Yes the school is bonkers but what about him? I don't believe in religion and no offense to anyone but I find Catholicism to be the most questionable of them all and yet I chose to go to Catholic highschool and college, for the environment [size and education] I complete ignore the religios aspects of it. I just think that if he wants to be there, he should go with the rules...I didn't complain about not having meat for lunch every Friday for 13 years..different but yet the same.
@Interrobanging: Well, not everybody had parents that let them choose where they went to school. Does it say somewhere that he chose to attend this high school?
Uh, am I the only one who saw that movie, Saved? Macauley Culkin, Mandy Moore, Susan Surandon's daughter had a role-Eva Amurri. If only Christians would consistently exhibit more tolerant behaviors.
Good for him. Surely if they have a system in place for the kids to ask permission, then they let others go to similar events? It didn't sound to me like he was asking to go to some all night bender/orgy. It was a prom, for heaven's sake.
Also, note to Mr England (who I don't like using my country's name!) - believe me, they are all having lustful thoughts. It's thanks to those darned things we call hormones. Stop fighting the inevitable.
@SarahHeartburn: And this is me looking at you, and wondering why you think it is appropriate to be that vicious about a LARGE subset of humanity. Religion can be twisted to do bad things yes, but at its heart, religion is about love and being kind to others and religion is very often a force of good in the world.
@vamusical: How about this? Throughout history, people have used the idea of a supreme being/beings to either oppress or attack other groups. It is very convenient to cling to a set of arbitrary rules, find someone who does not subscribe to them, and then raise the alarm and claim to be persecuted. Though obviously some use their belief in high beings as a vehicle to help others and foster unity, the essence of many major religions (Christianity being the one I'm most familiar with) divides people into "us" and "other." And that spreads fear and discord. This is just one very mild example of that.
@so5minutesago: Oh for the fuck of shit. Are you honestly taking a story about a strict Baptist school in Ohio to make your personal little soap box about how evil the ENTIRE FUCKING RELIGION OF THE WORLD is? And defending someone making the questionable and offensive jump by bringing up all the bad shit that religion has done in the past? I'm normally a LOT chiller about people attacking religion around here, but this is absolutely ridiculous.
Also, your statement doesn't prove in any way that "god is a rapist", so I don't really know where you were going with that.
Religion (especially in the US) is often used to defend stupidity, intolerance, and general bad ideas. Some people will treat religion like a sacred cow (heh) and tell us we're not allowed to question the bad ideas that are defended by religion because that would be "intolerant". I'll respect religion when it gets out of my government.
Religion certainly doesn't tolerate me, so why would I tolerate religion? I don't propose getting rid of it, but I do propose telling religious people to STFU and get back in their church if they want to stupid talk.
@greengrey: You are painting all religions with the same brush. Plenty of religious people tolerate you, even your right to say stupid shit like this. There are also plenty of religious people on Jez. And many people welcome questioning of ideas, especially religious ones.
@SarahHeartburn: I'm an ELCA Lutheran. I'm a woman. I have all of the same opportunities as men in every aspect of the church and our beliefs, but if you want I'll be looking for this shit I apparently have all over me when I go to church tomorrow!
@SarahHeartburn: So, to prove your point you shit all over religion? I think religion, or a belief system of some kind, is important because I think it feeds a need in human beings. It can be twisted and manipulated to bring about unbelievable evil, but I don't think that's the majority of religious people.
You have a right to believe in whatever you want, but I think a little respect can't hurt.
Oh, and I don't know much about all religions but the Bahia faith seems pretty non-sexist. Any religion that has Earth, Wind and Fire providing the music can't be all bad.
@inabook: Look, the last few sentences may have been pretty (perhaps overmuch) broad, but I thought the beginning of gg's comment was more than fair. Religion often (note, not always) is used to support stupid ideas. Witness, among others, much of misogyny, the political situation in the middle East, that damned Creation museum and so on. In the US, religion (specifically Christianity) permeates our government, often explicitly so. It is a fact that the vast majority of Americans would refuse to vote someone into public office who is openly atheist. And religious ideals are very often privileged over non-religiously based moral standards. I can't tell you the number of times my vegetarianism (based in animal welfare and to a smaller extent climate change) has been called "picky eating", where keeping kosher or avoiding meat during Lent is considered a reasonable commitment. I'm guessing the original comment was largely exasperation spilling over from other crap rather than the actual story, but just because there are lovely religious people who use their faith for good, let's not refuse to stare the very serious problems of religion in the face.
@Laulau: The problem is not religion though, it is the people. Some people are intolerant regardless, and just because they use religion as a justification doesn't mean the fault lies in the existence of religion itself.
Should religion permeate the government? No, it shouldn't. Should religion be used to justify misogony and war? No. But some people use it for that. But if there was no religion they would find other ways to justify it. The problem here isn't religion, its ignortant, hateful, self-important people who like to judge. And yes, you can find a lot of religious people like that-- but I think that's largely because more of America is religious than non religious. Because I certainly also know ignorant, hateful self-important atheists too, who use biology to justify their internal sense of superiority and misogyny.
@vamusical: Eh, religion is a loaded topic. Anger is expected.
No, I don't believe that "God is a rapist." I don't really believe that God is anything. Her statement was hyperbolic and probably meant to be offensive. I was attempting to bring the conversation back to a more rational plane.
I did not say that ALL Christians, or ALL religious people were like anything. What I said was that it's built in to Christianity, at least, that good Christians "save" others or subject them to an eternity of torment at the hands of pure evil. The Bible, as far as I've found, does not tell its readers what to do if the unsaved refuse their "help." The results of this range from wars to witch burnings to being snubbed by former friends for coming out. There are a lot of Christians out there who thing differently. The nuns at my old college had domestic partner benefits, and were happy to count as friends anyone who was a good person, regardless of their faith or lifestyle. The church I grew up in, on the other hand, made us preach to strangers and taught us that the outside world was unclean, and we must associate with it as little as possible. I've seen both sides of the coin, and am frustrated by the continuing insistence by the 700 Club people, etc., that THEY are the victims and, in turn, use that status as victim to inflict psychological pain on a whole different group of people, just because they don't subscribe to that idea.
@SarahHeartburn: I'm pretty sure women are considered *higher* than men in Wicca?
You know, I'm a Christian, but you'd be hard-pressed to find me calling someone who doesn't subscribe to my beliefs "evil". I guess it's because I don't think my favorite sandal-wearing hippie would approve.
@inabook: You're absolutely right that part of the problem is assholes who will use whatever excuse they can to continue to be assholes. But I still think that religion is part of the problem. Religion is either parochial (like Judaism, excluding those outside the in-group), or evangelical (in the sense of thinking everyone else should join and often proselytizing to get them to do so). Either way, obvious problems result. And, frankly, I think religion is often an excuse to be morally lazy - if there's an ultimate source of justice and a hereafter, we get to take a "moral holiday", as William James put it. Whatever we can't fix on earth will be ultimately remedied in heaven or what have you. By contrast, I think we only have each other to rely upon, and that when we fail those who are suffering right now, there are no second chances.
@so5minutesago: This sounds like what I think. I'm sorry for flying off the handle, I was just stunned and thought you were actually agreeing with an intentionally hateful, ignorant comment.
@SarahHeartburn: Don't even bother saying sorry when you say things like that. It's disingenuous, at best.
You come in here and make a huge, sweeping, offensive statement and then don't even back it up. A lot of religions do beget terrible things, and they do shit on women, but there are ones that do a lot of good things, too. It's the same thing as saying, "Man, I met this guy named Jack one time, and he was a total dick, so all guys named Jack must be total assholes." Doesn't make much sense.
Not to mention, "God is a rapist and a pimp" just seems like one of those statements people make to be inflammatory, and not because they actually have anything thoughtful or supportable to say. Try again.
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Sound and fury, signifying nothing.
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"The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look! He's a glutton and a drunk, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'"
Luke 7:34
awesome.
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The great thing about this is that I went to public school later, and you know what? There was waay more drugs and illicit sex going on at the Christian school than there was at the public school. Crazy rich kids!!
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Prayer and self-hate, of course.
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(I do hope you know that I'm kidding.)
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Hi peach!
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This is what happens when Christians don't behave like Jesus.
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And I am not even a Christian anymore.
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Also, note to Mr England (who I don't like using my country's name!) - believe me, they are all having lustful thoughts. It's thanks to those darned things we call hormones. Stop fighting the inevitable.
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And this is me on a good day.
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I'm really glad you're able to jump all over this one example and take it to mean that GOD is a RAPIST??!!
What in the fuck.
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Also, your statement doesn't prove in any way that "god is a rapist", so I don't really know where you were going with that.
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Religion (especially in the US) is often used to defend stupidity, intolerance, and general bad ideas. Some people will treat religion like a sacred cow (heh) and tell us we're not allowed to question the bad ideas that are defended by religion because that would be "intolerant". I'll respect religion when it gets out of my government.
Religion certainly doesn't tolerate me, so why would I tolerate religion? I don't propose getting rid of it, but I do propose telling religious people to STFU and get back in their church if they want to stupid talk.
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You have a right to believe in whatever you want, but I think a little respect can't hurt.
Oh, and I don't know much about all religions but the Bahia faith seems pretty non-sexist. Any religion that has Earth, Wind and Fire providing the music can't be all bad.
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Should religion permeate the government? No, it shouldn't. Should religion be used to justify misogony and war? No. But some people use it for that. But if there was no religion they would find other ways to justify it. The problem here isn't religion, its ignortant, hateful, self-important people who like to judge. And yes, you can find a lot of religious people like that-- but I think that's largely because more of America is religious than non religious. Because I certainly also know ignorant, hateful self-important atheists too, who use biology to justify their internal sense of superiority and misogyny.
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No, I don't believe that "God is a rapist." I don't really believe that God is anything. Her statement was hyperbolic and probably meant to be offensive. I was attempting to bring the conversation back to a more rational plane.
I did not say that ALL Christians, or ALL religious people were like anything. What I said was that it's built in to Christianity, at least, that good Christians "save" others or subject them to an eternity of torment at the hands of pure evil. The Bible, as far as I've found, does not tell its readers what to do if the unsaved refuse their "help." The results of this range from wars to witch burnings to being snubbed by former friends for coming out. There are a lot of Christians out there who thing differently. The nuns at my old college had domestic partner benefits, and were happy to count as friends anyone who was a good person, regardless of their faith or lifestyle. The church I grew up in, on the other hand, made us preach to strangers and taught us that the outside world was unclean, and we must associate with it as little as possible. I've seen both sides of the coin, and am frustrated by the continuing insistence by the 700 Club people, etc., that THEY are the victims and, in turn, use that status as victim to inflict psychological pain on a whole different group of people, just because they don't subscribe to that idea.
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You know, I'm a Christian, but you'd be hard-pressed to find me calling someone who doesn't subscribe to my beliefs "evil". I guess it's because I don't think my favorite sandal-wearing hippie would approve.
But we're all the same, so wtf do I know??
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You come in here and make a huge, sweeping, offensive statement and then don't even back it up. A lot of religions do beget terrible things, and they do shit on women, but there are ones that do a lot of good things, too. It's the same thing as saying, "Man, I met this guy named Jack one time, and he was a total dick, so all guys named Jack must be total assholes." Doesn't make much sense.
Not to mention, "God is a rapist and a pimp" just seems like one of those statements people make to be inflammatory, and not because they actually have anything thoughtful or supportable to say. Try again.
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