Murder - Jezebel

posts about #murder more →
Woman Studied Bobbitt Case Before Castrating Father
Suspect Arrested For Murder Of Annie Le
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Guardian Writer: No Justice For Women Who Retaliate Against Their Abusers
The Tracks Of Her Tears
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"Neda Is My Daughter, I Have One Just Like Her"

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theonlybirdleftintheaviary
09/22/09

In reply to Woman Studied Bobbitt Case Before Castrating Father
I am TOTALLY playing devil's advocate here, but, would the concensus still be the same (no feelings of sadness for the abusive parent) if the genders were switched?

If this was a young man who murdered his abusive mother, would it elicit the same feelings?
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whynotshesaid
09/22/09

@theonlybirdleftintheaviary: If a man killed his mom after she'd sexually abused him since the age of 3? Yes, I would still feel sympathetic toward him.

Sexual abuse will fuck a person up, regardless of the genders involved.
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bitchyspice
09/22/09

In reply to Woman Studied Bobbitt Case Before Castrating Father
My only concern is that an acquittal could have disastrous results for criminals or shady lawyers who see a get-out-of-jail-free-card. Kill a parent? He abused me! Look at all this evidence! I do sympathize with her circumstances, though; this just isn't a cut-and-dry issue of guilt or innocence, no matter how many fancy statutes or rules you apply to it.
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Hana Maru promoted this comment Edited by bitchyspice at 09/22/09 12:16 PM bitchyspice was starred bitchyspice was unstarred

Hana Maru
09/22/09

@bitchyspice: oh, come on. This is a very hard thing to prove in court, and even then, it's usually only a mitigating factor in sentencing.
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bitchyspice
09/22/09

@Hana Maru: And this is why I said could. I'm not entirely aware of all the ramifications, but if this did happen to work, it could be used by anyone who had been abused in any manner. A lot of it can be chalked up to worst-case-scenario, but sometimes, worst-case is the appropriate scenario.
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cirocco
09/22/09

@bitchyspice: You make it sound as though an abuse defense has never been used before in criminal law. The so-called "battered-women's defense" has been attempted in court, without much success, for almost two decades.
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bitchyspice
09/22/09

@cirocco: No, I get that, but the facts are a bit different than the battered-women cases I have read. I've actually been trying to do a little research on it, lol.
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CurtCole
09/22/09

In reply to Woman Studied Bobbitt Case Before Castrating Father

Bobbitt trumps hobbit any day.
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Edited by CurtCole at 09/22/09 11:55 AM CurtCole was starred CurtCole was unstarred

Penny
09/22/09

In reply to Woman Studied Bobbitt Case Before Castrating Father
The moral of this story? Fathers, don't abuse your daughters.
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marshmallory
09/22/09

@Penny: That sounds like a bad John Mayer parody just waiting to happen.
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Penny
09/22/09

@marshmallory: Ha! You're right. Oh god.....
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EdnasEdibles
09/22/09

In reply to Woman Studied Bobbitt Case Before Castrating Father
Yes, because it makes no sense to punish someone if they will just wind up all douchey and star in low-budget porn.
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LaComtesse
09/22/09

In reply to Woman Studied Bobbitt Case Before Castrating Father
I could never be on this woman's jury, because I recognize she's absolutely guilty in the eyes of the law: I would never in a million years bring that verdict upon her. EVER.

Then again, I'm against our current jury system and laws concerning the rights of abuse victims, so I don't see what system I'm really trying to protect. On second thought, how can I get on that jury...?
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Edited by LaComtesse at 09/22/09 11:50 AM LaComtesse was starred LaComtesse was unstarred

colormeroutine
09/22/09

@LaComtesse: I was thinking that, until I clicked over to the article and found out she did it in her own apartment, which he did not live in (or so it sounds according to the article), and had ordered the scalpal online specifically for the purpose. That made me reconsider....now I'm just perplexed
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queenjulie
09/22/09

@LaComtesse: I'm so with you. I know she's guilty, but I don't think I could punish her. I'd have the same problem ever punishing someone who killed their rapist, even if it was years after the rape had occurred. Of course, I might feel differently if our justice system actually ever punished rapists itself.
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GirlFailer
09/22/09

@colormeroutine: Well, he abused her since she was 3 years old. I'm sure he thought that out pretty carefully too. I still feel so sorry for her, no matter what she did. Bottom line, if he hadn't abused her since she was a child she would not have killed him. I can't place judgment on her.
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LaComtesse
09/22/09

@colormeroutine: Exactly. It was premediated--I don't care. I'm usually vehemently anti-vigilantism, but in a case like this or even more so in the Bobbit case my emotions get the better of me and I just think "The fucker had it coming."

Did the woman in question perform a monstrous act? Yes, but he created the monster. I can't imagine how badly your mind is fucked up when your own father does something so terrible to you since you were a BABY. How can we truly expect her to function rationally in any interpersonal relationship let alone where he is concerned?
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bitchyspice
09/22/09

@LaComtesse: That gets into some rough territory, though. How can we okay it for that particular person and situation and not okay it for someone else?

That being said, I don't think prison is the right option for her; I don't think she's a monster as much as she's victim of terrible circumstance. Rehabilitation for her could be some sort of in-house therapy/hospital program so she can heal to be a productive member of society; she won't get that in prison.
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colormeroutine
09/22/09

@GirlFailer: I of course still feel sorry for her, and I don't think she deserves to go to prison (perhaps a mental health facility) I'm just not exactly ready to applaud her either, given those details
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TryScience
09/22/09

@LaComtesse: Isn't that why we have a jury system? So that the people currently living in the society set the level of punishment for the crime? It was meant to be flexible since the founding fathers were smart enough to realize that the crimes of 1776 might not be the crimes of 2009. Mores change.
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GirlFailer
09/22/09

@colormeroutine: I agree, I don't think she should be applauded, but she doesn't deserve prison. She needs help dealing with years of abuse, not a trial for the murder of a man who tortured he for years.
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NefariousNewt
09/22/09

@LaComtesse: He was, ultimately, the victim of his own abuse. It does not excuse what she did -- she could have taken the matter to the police, or sued him in civil court. But, as it says, "what you have you sown, you shall also reap." He reaped a bitter harvest, indeed.
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LaComtesse
09/22/09

@bitchyspice: As I said, it's not logical. It's how I feel. I depart from logic so infrequently, don't begrudge me this!

@eclare09: Fingers crossed.

@colormeroutine: Oh. Definitely not applauding her. I just don't feel horror over her crime.
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LaComtesse
09/22/09

@TryScience: Don't get me started on the jury system, we'll be here all day...
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bitchyspice
09/22/09

@LaComtesse: I don't begrudge you! I agree with how you feel because I feel similarly, but the law school, it makes the compassionate feelings go away, which is a bummer.
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Edited by bitchyspice at 09/22/09 12:15 PM bitchyspice was starred bitchyspice was unstarred

LaComtesse
09/22/09

@bitchyspice: I come from a family chock full of criminal defense attorneys: I feel you, girl.
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Cerridwen
09/22/09

@LaComtesse: I'm right there with you. This is the (very tragic) definition of chickens coming home to roost. I'm having trouble mustering much sympathy for the father but my heart hurts for that woman and what she must be going through.
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Red-headed bookworm
09/22/09

@colormeroutine: Still, I have a friend who was abused, not by her father but by a family friend. I love her dearly and the amount it messed her up, I would hurt the person if I ever met them and she hasn't been around them in years.
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Freddie DeBoer
09/22/09

In reply to Woman Studied Bobbitt Case Before Castrating Father
I thought castration meant cutting off the balls, not the wang doodle.
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o-line
09/22/09

@Freddie DeBoer: Correct. According to Wikipedia, penectomy is the proper term for removal of the penis. Which just sounds silly.
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Never_Nude
09/22/09

@o-line: "Penectomy" sounds like when someone steals a writing instrument from you.
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whynotshesaid
09/22/09

@Freddie DeBoer: Damn you for making me laugh about this.
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utensil42
09/17/09

In reply to Suspect Arrested For Murder Of Annie Le
So, here's a question. If her cause of death was asphyxiation (as is being reported), then why are they allegedly focusing on bloody clothes that were found stuffed in the ceiling?
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LoSpaz
09/17/09

@utensil42: I had assumed that the bloody clothes were the killer's, and bloody because Annie Le fought back - scratching or biting or something. I think that's what they tested for DNA prior to making this arrest - I suppose the blood could also have been an animal's, considering the tech's job, and that's what they were ruling out.
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utensil42
09/17/09

@LoSpaz: Yeah, I just don't see there being a whole lot of blood created by defensive wounds. Maybe this is just my bias, but when I hear "bloody clothes" I'm thinking more than a few spots.

I assumed the DNA was to test for fingernail scrapings under her nails or hair found on her clothes or body.

Also, no way in hell the DNA is back already, no matter how much they rushed the order. It's been, what, 24 hours? No way.
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moonwalking
09/17/09

In reply to Suspect Arrested For Murder Of Annie Le
The fact that he was covered in bruises and scratches is really upsetting. While they could have come from anywhere, it is likely they are the result of the victim trying to defend herself. The poor woman fought for her life but he still overpowered her. I cannot imagine the terror she must have felt. R.I.P. Ms. Le.
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kentuckienne
09/17/09

@moonwalking: They found a bead from her necklace on the lab floor. She clearly did what you're supposed to do, which is fight like hell. That makes this all the more sad, in my opinion.
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dirtdevilabortion
09/17/09

In reply to Suspect Arrested For Murder Of Annie Le
I don't live very far from New Haven, so this whole thing has been kind of scary and depressing. When I found out that they found her body on the day she was to be married, that freaked me out. I went to a wedding on Friday and was still feeling especially lovey towards the bf, so I didn't take that bit of news well.

I'm glad they arrested someone, and I hope more comes to light about why he might have done this. Other than, you know, owning mean, scary, BAD animals like pit bulls...
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Dictator for Life promoted this comment dirtdevilabortion was starred

Dictator for Life
09/17/09

@dirtdevilabortion: Pit bulls are only scary if they're trained to be. My half pit/half lab has never gone at an animal or a person on his own. When dogs bark at him, he'll bark back, and sometimes strain at his leash, but even when other dogs have physically gone at him, he hasn't fought back. When small dogs bark at him and he barks back, he's the one who gets the dirty looks, of course, since he's the big one. Pit bulls can have all sorts of personalities, just like other dogs. As long as they haven't been trained to be fighters, they won't fight. We rescued ours from a fighting facility, right before they were going to kill him -- his mom, a breeder, wasn't supposed to have done it with a lab, so that litter was going to be killed. Luckily the place was raided and all the puppies were given up for adoption.
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dirtdevilabortion
09/17/09

@Dictator for Life: Oh, I'm well aware of that. My last statement was meant to be more sarcastic. I actually really like pit bulls, I kind of hope to get one when I'm in my own place. PEOPLE are the ones who are bad, and can make animals bad and make them do things for their own purposes/(sick) "entertainment". His owning pit bulls obviously does not make him a murderer, and the fact that this was deemed indicative of murderous tendencies by the neighbor is kind of laughably ridiculous.
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Penny
09/17/09

In reply to Suspect Arrested For Murder Of Annie Le
Also, the pit bull thing. Now, I am scared shitless of pit bulls, but just because someone owns them does not mean.....anything, really. Also, the caging.....people cage-train their dogs, it's pretty commonplace.
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BAngieB
09/17/09

@Penny: I know a hot corporate lawyer who has a pit bull, and she is SCARY.

And, yeah, crating (caging) is perfectly normal, pups like having their own den.
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Edited by BAngieB at 09/17/09 10:53 AM BAngieB was starred BAngieB was unstarred

Never_Nude
09/17/09

@BAngieB: Who's scary? The hot lawyer or the dog? I generally like all animals, but I encountered one neighbor's pit bull that scared the shit out of me. I think they used him for fighting. His name was Two-Face and he looked at you with murder in his eyes.
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lilbobbytables
09/17/09

@Penny: Aww. I have a pit mix who is cage trained. I like to think that neither Buddy nor I are bad mammals! He likes his house!
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BAngieB
09/17/09

@Never_Nude: The lawyer.
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SarahMC
09/17/09

@Never_Nude: Could you (all of you) please stop spreading the myth that pit bull = scary? If your neighbors were using their pit bull for fighting they are BAD PEOPLE, the dogs are not bad dogs. For chrissakes.
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Dictator for Life
09/17/09

@Penny: Yeah, see my comment above. Also, our half pit/half lab is kept in a crate whenever we can't watch him super-closely. The last time we had him out and left the room, he ate half a pull-toy, which required $4K in surgery 3 months later, after it had blocked his intestines completely. He gets long walks and time outside of the crate, but if we can't watch him to make sure he's not eating anything, he's in there.
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Penny
09/17/09

@all: Yeah, to be clear, I am not a pit pull fan. I saw one maul a cat when I was young and my good friend and his husband (a gay couple owning a pit....imagine that) have one that attacked our dog. It's taken me a year to even be around her, and she's VERY sweet. They are just a very protective breed. But, I did talk to my friend a few weeks back and he says he won't get another one, because they can never let her off her leash (whereas my boyfriend and I walk our dog all the time unleashed) and he doesn't even want her around kids.

In the end, I have come to appreciate the breed and respect that they need special care, but they still scare me. I'm a wuss.
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Penny
09/17/09

@Penny: And, most importantly, I won't judge someone's character based on what kind of damn dog they own, nor should anyone else.
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Penny
09/17/09

In reply to Suspect Arrested For Murder Of Annie Le
I have to say, "workplace violence" was one of the last things I thought this was, and if I did consider it at all, it was because of the security of the building. This guy must have been seriously on the verge....I can't imagine she could have done anything that horrible to set him off.
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lalaland13
09/17/09

In reply to Suspect Arrested For Murder Of Annie Le
I'm still creeped out by the neighbors freakin' applauding when he was taken away the first time for DNA sampling. God, people. You can stand there and quietly nod your approval if you really want to. But don't clap or cheer or play "Hit the Road Jack." Because if you do think this guy is a murderer, why would you want to get his attention?
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MuleCat
09/17/09

In reply to Suspect Arrested For Murder Of Annie Le
Is there any media coverage of the groom or is he staying private? I can't help but think the media would make this story all about the widowed bride if it had been the other way around.
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EdnasEdibles
09/17/09

@MuleCat: I admit I'm curious about him too but I also completely understand how he must be totally devestated that his fiance is dead and the media isn't too kind to spouses involved in news stories like this. So he is being very smart.
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Ms Meghan
09/17/09

In reply to Suspect Arrested For Murder Of Annie Le
I find the whole thing unsettling. Why did he do it? That's what I want to know.
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SarahMC
09/17/09

@Ms Meghan: He had pit bulls. Pit bulls! You know what that means.
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