Jezebel 
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New York, 5:50 AM
Wed Nov 25
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11/10/09
Honest question. #masculinity
11/10/09
+They like their women strong and opinionated.
+They like to cook and clean.
And they are often mysognistic. And sexist. And defintely products of the Patriarchy. They reap the rewards of being men and, from what I can tell, have no plans to relinquish their privilege.
Just because your dad, brother, or male partner is "cool" doesn't mean he's a feminist. It means he's not a dick. There's a huuuge difference. My dad, brothers, and boyfriend are not dicks. They're very lovely, actually. But they're definitely NOT feminists or redefining masculinity in any way. Feminists have raised the bar on what it means to be a Strong Woman. We would do well to raise the bar on what it means to be a Good Man. Being nice and cool and sweet ain't good enough. #masculinity
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And then there's my boyfriend, who more than once I have told, "If more men thought like you, the world would be a better place." 1) He doesn't lust after every attractive woman he sees and he thinks it's pathetic and unhealty the way men can turn into drooling idiots over a big pair of tits. "You shouldn't let anything control your life like that." This, by the way, was his reaction to that massacre at the women's gym-- he said that guy "poisoned" himself with his mindless lust and entitlement. 2) He believes women are "better at sex" than men (because of multiple orgasms and shorter refractory periods), so men should focus on making sure their partner has the greatest amount of pleasure possible. "I know I'll come somewhere along the way, so I'd rather focus on helping my partner achieve climax rather than myself." 3) By extension, he is effectively incapable of rape. "I could never even touch a woman unless I know she would enjoy it." The idea of date rape-- drugged or drunk-- or even consensual bondage turns him off, because "I want my partner to be free to respond-- and reciprocate!" 4) He prefers sex within relationships, because it takes a some time to establish sexual compatibility, but once you do, the sex is infinitely better than it is in one-night stands. 5) He LOVES smart women. "Looks don't last forever, and it's really pathetic to meet a woman in her forties who has nothing to say." He'd much rather spend time with a "fat girl" who's developed her mind and has interests beyond fashion and make-up. 6) Nevertheless, he is unashamedly INTO fashion, men's and women's. He is undoubtedly the best-dressed man in any room he's in, and as a result, he commands attention and respect. He gleefully flips through Vogue, but he does it critically, praising the clothes that flatter a woman's unique figure ("Women are beautiful. Only the clothes are ugly.") 6) In fact, in general, he's not concerned about "seeming gay." He's not at all homophobic either. "Either you are or you aren't and just go do what you want." He acknowledges masculine attractiveness and appreciates it-- how else is he supposed to make himself look good?
I could go on, but I think you've got the point. #masculinity
11/10/09
He sounds like a really great person (and to berzi, you're a judgmental jerk, there is no reason to assume he is gay, assuming the commenter is a woman, which we are). #masculinity
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And I'm not just using 'normal people' as a stand-in for 'people I know and like'. I've known (and sometimes liked) plenty of anti-feminist assholes of varying degrees, too, and I've written about them in other posts when relevant. I've received no skepticism from the crowd that these people actually exist. It's only when somebody posits that normal, boring, not particularly offensive people exist as well that the snarky questions start. #masculinity
11/10/09
And who asked for anyone to cut anyone slack?
You don't find it the slightest bit suspicious that a lot of people on this comment thread have had good experiences with decent men worth remarking on, just as we've all had experiences with our fair share of assholes as well? #masculinity
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The unexamined gender is not worth performing. #masculinity
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I find it particularly suspicious in a dude who comes into a thread about gender expectations trying to scold women to "remember their privilege" even though it's a concept he's plainly just encountered. And yet, like many folks with privilege, you find the concept useful only insofar as you can use it, without grounding it in sociological analysis, to put the blame on someone else. #masculinity
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Also, you're missing the point -- for huge swaths of man-kind, the culture *really doesn't expect much of anything from us*, except the basic things it semi-expects of everyone in our peer groups, male and female (go to college, find a job, etc.). These 'expectations' you speak of are very media-driven, and people who aren't media-obsessive (Sort of the opposite of the Jezebel target demographic) tend not to take much heed of them. #masculinity
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And wow, each of us knows maybe at least one decent man. Amazing. You think bigotry and oppression are somebody else's problem. We get it. #masculinity
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But truthfully, it's the demands of compliance to gender norms, and the general opinion that any deviance from "masculinity" is a bad, bad thing, which is inherently due to the fact that its alternative "femininity" is simply unacceptable for males because society views it as degrading.
This thread is odd.
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I'm from California, actually. Prop 8 attracted a lot of votes. It also attracted a lot of opposition. #masculinity
11/10/09
"that this whole notion that we live in a state of gender inequality is in crazy Jezebel commenters' heads."
Now, moving on...
""I find it suspicious that anyone is insisting that there are people out there who are somehow exempt from society, that they form their ideas in isolation from it,""
Nobody's arguing this, either. It's not that we're 'exempt from society', it's that a lot of the 'pressures' you're talking about aren't pressures from 'society', per se, but pressures from specific portions of society and the media, and thus far more relevant to the portion of the society that tunes into those sources of information.
""I find it particularly suspicious in a dude who comes into a thread about gender expectations trying to scold women to "remember their privilege" even though it's a concept he's plainly just encountered. ""
Yeah, it's not like I've been reading about and debating these issues for years. Oh, wait! Fuck, I can forward you my personally annotated copy of the White Privilege checklist from an old discussion in my e-mail archives if you're going to be this bad-faith about it.
Also, scolding 'women'? I scolded one specific *person*, who happens to be a woman, because she came off in her comment sounding like a jerk.
""And yet, like many folks with privilege, you find the concept useful only insofar as you can use it,""
Funny, I'd say this last part describes you to a tee. #masculinity
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As for B-grade snark, well, as I often say 'round here, I'm not funny. Never win any besties! But I do know stupid when I see it. #masculinity
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To see which parts apply to your own particular situation, and which don't?
"" Where is this "outside" culture? What does it look like? ""
Who said anything about 'outside' culture? Are you going to offer up anything here that isn't a total straw-man? To the extent there's an actual question here at all, it's one already answered above.
""Or is it simply your assertion that some silent majority exists?""
Straw man, again. Never claimed anything about a majority. #masculinity
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As the Dalai Lama says: If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion. #masculinity
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this whole masculinity concept is interesting to me specifically. i'm 6'6" and when i was younger i was a bodybuilder with buzzed hair, goatee, etc. (this was the 80s and 90s). however i also worked in the fashion industry in nyc as a stylist, booker, art director and retail manager of a designer woman's boutique in soho. once i went to a showroom and upon seeing me, the receptionist said "deliveries need to come in through the back elevator". wait! i was there to pick out dresses!
so the whole question of what it means to be "masculine" fascinates me. i didn't "lisp, mince or cut hair" (or whatever generalizations there are) but i did frequent the gym, went dancing every weekend, went to albany and spoke to politicians about AIDS and could do a mean Tina Turner when it was called for.
of course i eventually moved on from all of that and admit i know little about what concerns young gay men have about these issues today. from what i glean on TV, etc. they seem to feel less pressured about appearance and body morphing. maybe? i don't really know. all i do know is i'm glad i took the chance to explore what i could and glad i could combat some of the stereotypes, in my own way, when i got the chance. #masculinity
11/10/09
11/10/09
Books are hardly a man's arena either. From Twilight to Oprah's book club, it is hard to see how books are marketed towards a male audience.
Let's not forget that this blog is even defined as "for women."
Am I complaining of a lack of public masculine role models? Not necessarily, but to say that all media is somehow skewed to men is becoming more and more false every day. #masculinity
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However, the male viewpoint is treated as the default viewpoint in basically any setting that isn't labeled "for women." See: the other Gawker sites. Sure, women can get something out of it, but our voices are drowned out and men tend to reign supreme.
BET exists because every other channel is de facto WET. Same applies to women/men. #masculinity
11/10/09
To deny that things are "for men by default" is actually prolonging the problem, to be quite honest with you. #masculinity
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11/10/09
A) But remember, when a man is a hapless fool, it's endearing. The day ends with a "d'aww, honey" no matter how much destruction they have wrought, and their wives are more often than not far more physically attractive than them. The man is still the breadwinner while the woman is the housewife, stuck in an effectively passive role - the man never seems to change, does he, no matter how much she calls him out?
It's a grown-up version of "boys will be boys," and the women are trapped in a characterization that is solely reactionary. In those sitcoms they serve only to react to the husbands' antics.
EG: There's an episode of According to Jim in which the title character (d'oh!) forgets to pick up the children at school. The wife shows up in her foils, mad because she had to leave the salon to pick up the kids. She's portrayed as a scary, screaming harpie in that moment, more mad about her salon appointment than the kids being left alone.
And you're telling me stuff like that doesn't play to a male audience?
B) Because it would be unmanly for a man to read any of the books suggested by Oprah, amirite? You're playing right into the point of this post, here. There's a standard of masculinity at play that necessarily excludes the feminine experience by a man. Furthermore, what makes Oprah's book club marketed towards women? Because they are books recommended by a woman?
Yeah, I got nothing more for this point because it is just so ridiculous.
C) Yes, it is defined as being 'for women'. It is a place for women in an internet worldview that is mainly geared towards men. Hence why we are often characterized so harshly as 'bitches' or 'feminazis' by our commenter counterparts over at Gawker. Often when an even remotely feminist comment is made over there, it is met with a dismissive "go back to Jezebel". Bringing the discussion of our experience as women outside of this space and ones similar to it (by which I mean websites that identify as women's issues or feminist) is met with no small level of opposition. We are effectively kept to these spaces by a process of internet ghettoisation.
Yes, it is defined as being 'for women'. Because it needs to be. It needs to be identified as that safe space for women and their issues to be brought forth and discussed. Men's spaces, I might point out, do not need to be identified in this way. Every space is, by default, a man's space. Because that is how the patriarchy manifests.
11/10/09
I agree, and I'm sure most folks here would agree with you as well. But in the meantime, we need representation and we basically have to settle for scraps. I'm not saying BET or female-focused media is good, or that it necessarily serves their audiences well. I am explaining that what you see as "neutral" is not so. #masculinity
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From what I remember reading, BET's audience is primarily white these days? Mainly white suburban kids who actually believe the crap they're selling. The closest thing to the BET of old that exists anymore is TV1. #masculinity
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(for the record, I basically agree with the main argument) #masculinity
11/10/09
As for this, "To view things as a priori racist or sexist is in itself racist and sexist." Hoo boy. [finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com] #masculinity
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I'm not arguing that feminism is sexist. I'm arguing that viewing things as sexist at first glance is sexist and that things ought to be viewed as neutral until they prove themselves to be sexist. To say that all blogs that are not "for women" are automatically "for men" is sexist because you are classifying all blogs before you have even pointed out how or why or what makes them sexist. You are saying they are sexist before they are even given a chance to prove themselves as otherwise.
It is like with law. I feel that things should be innocent until proven guilty. Not guilty until proven innocent. Likewise, a website ought to be seen as neutral until it is proven to be sexist rather than seen as sexist until it is proven to be neutral, as sexism is "guilty" in that is is morally and ethically reprehensible. #masculinity
11/10/09
Okay, let's try this. Why is it sexist to "view things as sexist at first glance?" If what you're trying to say is that assuming the dominant culture is "male" is sexist, then I think you are incorrect. No one is making a value judgment about the dominant culture in observing that it is "for men" - they are making a historical observation. And one well-grounded in fact, I might add.
The missing piece of the puzzle for you, I think, is this: feminists, or at least social constructionist feminists like the ones being discussed here, don't believe that there is a "neutral." They tend to believe that we have been soaking in the gender dichotomy for so long that "neutral" became a smokescreen for "male." See, by assuming that, say, the status quo is that all websites (just to continue your example) are "neutral" until providen "sexist," feminists think you are starting out from a problematic place. #masculinity
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This is.... um... OK. Here, I'll draw a parallel to my own experience: I am white, and code as such in my appearance. I experience a society in which whiteness has power though my whiteness. Therefore I float on this level of privilege in my entire social experience. The spaces of society that are not specifically designated as being safe for non-whites are by default white space that I have access to in a unquestioned way that POCs do not. Furthermore, I also have access to those spaces designated as minority-friendly because of my whiteness. I can transgress racial boundaries in unquestioned ways POCs cannot approach 'neutral' (read: white) spaces. I may be questioned and called out in those spaces, yes, but the fact that I can even approach those spaces speaks to my own privilege. #masculinity
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I mean, really, what does it even mean to be a man or a woman? Discussions like these always frustrate me because no one can ever seem to agree on what these premises are without resorting to tired stereotypes. I realize that many people embrace gender roles because they see it as easier somehow, but isn't it easier to just try to be a good person? You certainly have to follow fewer rules, that's for sure. #masculinity
11/10/09
Yes. See also, alcoholism, proportion of prison population, and normalization of violence. There are a lot of shitty things about the norms that many men adhere to.
But a big part of the problem is simply that the default of what's good, what's appropriate is male. Adopting "feminine" ideas or traits is a bad thing because society finds simply being a woman to be degrading. #masculinity
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I have no doubt he has privilege.
I have little doubt you're exercising your own unexamined privilege by what sounds like gleefully rubbing things in his face for no particular purpose.
The point of recognizing privilege is to recognize all the distance that society has to go before things can truly be called 'equal'.
Using it as a starting off point for a pissing contest as to which of you is the more enlightened one misses the point entirely. #masculinity
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And absolutely no mention that your privilege in the world came up as a topic of discussion... #masculinity
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(You said nothing wrong.) #masculinity
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@PilgrimSoul: I know I shouldn't even engage him and I resisted the urge on the other topics. I wish I could reply to people without bumping them. #masculinity
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I applaud young men who attempt to awaken themselves. But, honestly, if we want more feminist young men, we need more awesome feminist mothers (and fathers). #masculinity
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