My grandparents actually DO fit into the 50s stereotypes. Not that they are 2-dimensional, which a lot of people on here refute, but that they behaved in the way that they were conditioned to, acting out the roles that they were taught were normal and appropriate.
My grandfather suffered from PTSD, but of course because of his generation he went his whole life without being treated. He was a tough-love, gruff sort of man who clearly loved my mom and my sister and I (and my grandmother!), but just simply didn't express his feelings very openly. My grandmother, similarly, behaves very 'ladylike' and is shocked about how women act these days.
the problem is that the baby boomers remember the 50's as being stricter because they were kids then, and since everything in society seems to be aimed for the baby boomers (insert sigh here). the 60's was their coming of age, hence the comparison.
ask anyone who is in their early to mid 70's now about what the 50's were really like and you'll get a completely different story. folks in their 70's now came of age in the 50's in high school and college. teens could drink legally then. in bars. in public. all the early beatniks of the 50's? baby boomers didn't invent smoking weed or doing drugs...the jazz cats of the 50's did. most if not all of the ideals of the 60's had their roots in the 50's. but, y'know, it's easy to paint the entire decade it as strict and reserved when the kids at woodstock were running around with little red wagons watching howdy doody in the 50's.
I had something like this reaction when I finally actually sat down and saw all 234 episodes of Leave It To Beaver (it was shortly before I named myself JB, if that helps you). Ward Cleaver, cold? He was the planet's biggest softie, and Hugh Beaumont's influence as a minister on the character was evident. I never expected to find that much nuance and humor in it. It was right about then that I knew that in a way, movies like Pleasantville were doing us a disservice (even though I loved it). People were not, and never have been, two-dimensional. They certainly weren't just like us, which is the other mistake people make about history, but they weren't thin and wooden and drawn to order as some sort of methodology for thinking about ourselves in the future.
Moreover, my grandfathers both came of age in the fifties, and one of them was so affected by his war experiences and the tragic death of his first child that he drank himself to death--took longer than he planned, I'm sure--and the other, in his dotage, is prone to telling my husband only stories of the Pacific theater, still so fresh and disturbing that he thinks I should be shielded from them. It's possible that only now that we have large numbers of young people coming back from the Middle East with similar experiences will we really understand what it's like to go on with life in these United States after spending five, six, seven years at war. They deserve better from us than assumptions, and so do our forebears.
God, i love love letters (writing and receiving). And not just the mushy intimate ones also funny and sexy kind. Shame it's a dying mode of communication (no emails and texts don't count).
I mean think about it save for thank you letters and maybe cover letters, when in this day and age do you really need to handwrite a letter (no email, no microsoft word).
This is actually one of my major problems with Mad Men, and the reason I haven't been able to get in to it. I feel like they DO portray men as one dimensional. Don Draper has feelings, but they aren't about the fact that he's constantly cheating on his wife. Everyone is so "good old boy, women wine and cigars, etc." that you don't get the feeling that any of them have a problem with it. Everything is just such a caricature. Granted, I've only seen the first season, since I wasn't impressed I didn't move on. But my main problem with it is that it seems to be a show of stereotypes.
@laureltreedaphne: Hmm, I disagree. Even Roger, whom I LOATHE, was vulnerable when he had the heart attack. Momentarily, anyway. Harry felt real remorse for cheating on his wife. Pete's main "feeling" seems to be inadequacy (which he unsuccessfully he tries to cover up).
As to Don, there's the last ep of the first season where he fantasizes that his family is home waiting for him and he goes to Thanksgiving with them. Normally I find him fascinating but not particularly sympathetic, but that scene made me feel for him.
I don't know - I think about the shows I really love, like Homicide, or even How I Met Your Mother - and I see more nuance in those characters than I do in the Mad Men characters. But I see what you're saying.
That scene made me feel for him BUT (spoiler below)
All sympathy I had for him was ruined by the fact that he had been willing to abandon his children a few hours earlier. So at that point, I didn't care that he was alone in his big empty house. I guess you are supposed to feel that his family is what he really wants, deep down, but I don't see any real evidence of that.
They all have contradictions and feelings that are not expected. I hate to love Pete, he wants to be loved by his Dad, so he's insecure and an asshole to other people. He seems to have made a connection with Peggy yet he refused to commit to this relationship and focused on the "safe" marriage.
@Maritsa: The scene where he went to see his brother and finally cracked and hugged him was so great to me. And it felt very much like two grown men trying to hide the fact they were overcome by emotion.
@Penny: That's actually one reason I love Numbers. It's really fair to men, and un-smarmily explores masculinity in an all-male household, but never drifts into acceptance of misogyny or sitcom stereotypes. In fact. I find it very self-corrective that way. They don't pretend the issues aren't there, and they don't pretend they can solve them all, but they keep trying.
@laureltreedaphne: I wouldn't say Mad Men was a show of stereotypes. Sure, the characters are recognizable, but hardly flat. If anything, it's the characters themselves who are each trying to fit into what they deem the appropriate archetypes, to achieve perfection... and we, the viewers, get to watch them each fail a little more each week, and rebel against the parameters they set for themselves.
@laureltreedaphne: I feel like he wants to want the perfect family life. As it is I think he only wants the appearance of it, because of what it symbolizes, but he doesn't really want it. If that makes sense!
@laureltreedaphne: there's an aspect of that 'good old boy' thing that masks the fact that a lot of the men were veterans from the korean war and world war 2. plus, men didn't talk about their feelings with other men...that is what bartenders and sometimes wives are for.
One only needs to read Regan's letters to know that men could have feelings in the 50's. Say what you will about the man, he was a good letter writer.
I have a pile of letters from my first serious boyfriend. He even told me he loved me for the first time in a letter that I received the day after he left for school. We dated between the end of high school through our first year of college. He was in TN, I was in CA. I seriously cherish those letters, even though he turned out to be a douche. I've never written letters with a boy again....
My dad was a fifties male and he was so sensitive he actually won my hardass mom over - and to this day she still says no one else would have managed to get through her defenses. But he could also shut her out if she was angry and he didn't want to deal. Wish I could find the first without the latter.
"I sometimes think the word love is inadequate to express all the tender and stirring emotions I feel – it's the little things – the sound of your voice – the way you walk – your eyes. I can't stand being alone."
@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.:
Private, Sidwell Friends I believe. Doesn't matter though, my daughters have been through private and public schools and the lunches are bad universally. So I don't know how fair this ad is.
@BreeDMN: When the girls first started going to the school they were posting the school's menu on the news. It's pretty well known for having fancy pants organic food.
I'm always so confused by studies like "food stamps linked to weight gain in women." Could it not be that poverty is stressful, and stress causes weight gain?
Also, my husband and I each identify looks and personality with one of our dogs. I'm the skinny, bouncy, slightly crazy one. He's the slightly chubby (his words, not mine), laid back, loyal one. (You can see them in my avatar, red one=hubs, black one=me.)
@funnyface: or, you know, the fact that a. inexpensive food is usually less healthful and b. the food programs, mostly run by the USDA, are inherently tied to corn subsidies, and thus to foods high in corn and corn byproduct?
Yes, those things, too.
@CurtCole: Yeah yeah, you're not the one with the uterus who has to try and con a vaccination out of these people sometime in the next 3 years while not having health insurance!
@CurtCole: It is my Texas too brother. And Perry is an idiot, except when he tried to mandate that all eligible females get the shot. I swear his wife came up with that idea. She is a former nurse.
Hunh. Interesting to try to think around those definitions.
Weirdly, when I think of feeling "masculine", I think of wearing pencil skirts, walking in heels that click against tile, and using biting or clever sarcasm. When I think of feeling "feminine", it's wearing a full skirt that moves with the wind, walking with an easy sway to my hips, and listening a lot more. But I also enjoy both of those states, and don't see either of them as preferable to the other.
I think I'm framing "masculinity" and "femininity" according to the audience -- I'm more likely to be on offense verbally with a roomful of guys, and I like being dressed a particular way when playing power games with men.
The only times I regard myself as masculine or feminine is in comparison to others. For instance, when I am around girls who are stereotypically feminine - really into shoes, pay a lot of attention to their appearances, love relationship porn - then I become conscious of how little I fit into the commonly accepted definition of "feminine."
The opposite is true when I am around me who are stereotypically masculine - I am suddenly very aware of myself as a woman.
But when I am on my own, or when I am with a close friend or my husband, I no longer think about such things. I am just me.
I hardly ever think of myself in terms of feminine or masculine, I don't often think of others that way either, unless a man is making a gratuitous display of his "manliness" (catcalls, revving his big trucks engine, pounding back beers, etc.). When I notice these displays I do not see "true" masculinity (whatever that means) but a mask, an act, an attempt to be seen and noticed and approved of. It never seems genuine to me, even if they feel natural doing it...
These things are fascinating to think about but I can never quite get my head around it. Because I don't buy it... any of it. I know I've felt the same way as these men at various times- self-reliant, dominating, etc. I never think of it as a masculine experience. It's part of being a competent grown up.
Is that something only men can be?
08/27/09
My grandfather suffered from PTSD, but of course because of his generation he went his whole life without being treated. He was a tough-love, gruff sort of man who clearly loved my mom and my sister and I (and my grandmother!), but just simply didn't express his feelings very openly. My grandmother, similarly, behaves very 'ladylike' and is shocked about how women act these days.
I don't know, maybe they are the anomalies...
08/26/09
ask anyone who is in their early to mid 70's now about what the 50's were really like and you'll get a completely different story. folks in their 70's now came of age in the 50's in high school and college. teens could drink legally then. in bars. in public. all the early beatniks of the 50's? baby boomers didn't invent smoking weed or doing drugs...the jazz cats of the 50's did. most if not all of the ideals of the 60's had their roots in the 50's. but, y'know, it's easy to paint the entire decade it as strict and reserved when the kids at woodstock were running around with little red wagons watching howdy doody in the 50's.
08/27/09
08/27/09
08/26/09
Moreover, my grandfathers both came of age in the fifties, and one of them was so affected by his war experiences and the tragic death of his first child that he drank himself to death--took longer than he planned, I'm sure--and the other, in his dotage, is prone to telling my husband only stories of the Pacific theater, still so fresh and disturbing that he thinks I should be shielded from them. It's possible that only now that we have large numbers of young people coming back from the Middle East with similar experiences will we really understand what it's like to go on with life in these United States after spending five, six, seven years at war. They deserve better from us than assumptions, and so do our forebears.
08/26/09
I mean think about it save for thank you letters and maybe cover letters, when in this day and age do you really need to handwrite a letter (no email, no microsoft word).
08/26/09
08/26/09
08/26/09
As to Don, there's the last ep of the first season where he fantasizes that his family is home waiting for him and he goes to Thanksgiving with them. Normally I find him fascinating but not particularly sympathetic, but that scene made me feel for him.
08/26/09
I don't know - I think about the shows I really love, like Homicide, or even How I Met Your Mother - and I see more nuance in those characters than I do in the Mad Men characters. But I see what you're saying.
08/26/09
That scene made me feel for him BUT (spoiler below)
All sympathy I had for him was ruined by the fact that he had been willing to abandon his children a few hours earlier. So at that point, I didn't care that he was alone in his big empty house. I guess you are supposed to feel that his family is what he really wants, deep down, but I don't see any real evidence of that.
08/26/09
They all have contradictions and feelings that are not expected. I hate to love Pete, he wants to be loved by his Dad, so he's insecure and an asshole to other people. He seems to have made a connection with Peggy yet he refused to commit to this relationship and focused on the "safe" marriage.
08/26/09
08/26/09
08/26/09
I love the show.
08/26/09
08/26/09
08/26/09
I have a pile of letters from my first serious boyfriend. He even told me he loved me for the first time in a letter that I received the day after he left for school. We dated between the end of high school through our first year of college. He was in TN, I was in CA. I seriously cherish those letters, even though he turned out to be a douche. I've never written letters with a boy again....
08/26/09
08/26/09
08/26/09
Can you imagine getting this in a text?
08/26/09
"can i put it in u 2nite?"
08/26/09
08/11/09
08/11/09
Private, Sidwell Friends I believe. Doesn't matter though, my daughters have been through private and public schools and the lunches are bad universally. So I don't know how fair this ad is.
08/11/09
08/11/09
Also, my husband and I each identify looks and personality with one of our dogs. I'm the skinny, bouncy, slightly crazy one. He's the slightly chubby (his words, not mine), laid back, loyal one. (You can see them in my avatar, red one=hubs, black one=me.)
08/11/09
Yes, those things, too.
08/11/09
08/11/09
08/11/09
08/11/09
08/11/09
08/11/09
08/11/09
08/11/09
08/11/09
08/11/09
08/10/09
Weirdly, when I think of feeling "masculine", I think of wearing pencil skirts, walking in heels that click against tile, and using biting or clever sarcasm. When I think of feeling "feminine", it's wearing a full skirt that moves with the wind, walking with an easy sway to my hips, and listening a lot more. But I also enjoy both of those states, and don't see either of them as preferable to the other.
I think I'm framing "masculinity" and "femininity" according to the audience -- I'm more likely to be on offense verbally with a roomful of guys, and I like being dressed a particular way when playing power games with men.
08/10/09
The opposite is true when I am around me who are stereotypically masculine - I am suddenly very aware of myself as a woman.
But when I am on my own, or when I am with a close friend or my husband, I no longer think about such things. I am just me.
08/10/09
No thank you.
08/10/09
These things are fascinating to think about but I can never quite get my head around it. Because I don't buy it... any of it. I know I've felt the same way as these men at various times- self-reliant, dominating, etc. I never think of it as a masculine experience. It's part of being a competent grown up.
Is that something only men can be?