lord of the flies

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Lord Of The Flies Author Admitted Attempted Underage Assault
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'Kid Nation' Might Be More Terrifying Than 'Lord Of The Flies'

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WorthingtonTiamat
08/17/09

In reply to Lord Of The Flies Author Admitted Attempted Underage Assault
No one seems to have mentioned the pitting-boys-against-each-other thing yet. The whole rape incident is awful, but teachers encouraging aggression and rivalry in students can be awfully damaging too. When my seventh-grade class read Lord of the Flies, that was EXACTLY what happened-- the teacher set it up so that students would turn on each other. She split the class into unusually large groups (~10 each) and had us elect a leader, designate a conch, and do assignments as a group. As a bunch of seventh graders, we were being set up to fight, turn on each other, and fail to complete our assignments. It was all very calculated, and the teacher didn't step in no matter how bad things got. Presumably this was so that we could learn deep lessons about the evil that lurks in the heart of man, but that doesn't seem like an excuse for breaking friendships, guaranteeing low grades, and ensuring that the weak and unpopular (me) could be bullied uninterrupted. I always thought this was just my teacher and her lousy classroom control combined with a book I never liked much, but I think it's fascinating that the author did exactly the same thing.

And on another note, based on my middle school classmates, if there had been girls on the island, they would have had the boys in a cage dangling over the rocks inside of two days, while they schemed to destroy each other using only words.
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Uncommon Whore
08/17/09

@WorthingtonTiamat: My teacher did a much more innocent version of pitting us against each other - he gave us each a balloon, had us each inflate and tie it off, and then told us that whoever still had a balloon left in five minutes would get a donut the next day.

After about 30 seconds of quietly sitting there, complete chaos gripped the classroom and every single balloon got popped. Five minutes was more than enough time to witness the amount of aggression that 14 year olds are capable of.

Your experience sounds terrifying.
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Mad May
08/17/09

In reply to Lord Of The Flies Author Admitted Attempted Underage Assault
The Guardian article is the most disturbing and strange story I've read in a long time, I couldnt understand why the girl (years later) tried to get Goldings father to watch them have sex, strange.
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formergr
08/17/09

@Mad May: Wha??? I'm going to have to read that now-- sounds like some serious pathology going on there, the poor girl.
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BlakeCaba?ero
08/17/09

In reply to Lord Of The Flies Author Admitted Attempted Underage Assault
Would you later sleep with someone who had tried to rape you years earlier? Could it be possible, do you think, that professional writer of fiction, Golding, chose to recollect the incident with embellishment that suited his (albeit twisted) agenda at the time?
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sewradical
08/17/09

@BlakeCaba?ero: My understanding from a good friend, a rape counselor, is that this sometimes occurs as a way for the victim to regain control over the situation or as a denial mechanism.

That doesn't mean that I believed it necessarily happened in this situation, but that I know it does happen. It also does NOT mitigate the rape/attempted rape that took place originally, but rather is indicative of the psychological damage that was the result of the assault (I'm looking at you pmarble).
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formergr
08/17/09

@sewradical: Right, that's what I was thinking. From the many comments I've read here on Jezebel when survivors have shared their date rape stories, it sounds like it's actually not uncommon to either date or reach out to the guy afterward.

Which makes total sense-- if you have a relationship or stay friends or whatever with the guy after the date rape, then it's much easier to convince oneself that maybe you weren't actually raped, and then you don't need to deal with it. Very sad.
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Edited by formergr at 08/17/09 12:04 PM formergr was starred formergr was unstarred

pmarble
08/17/09

In reply to Lord Of The Flies Author Admitted Attempted Underage Assault
The Guardian article says that two years later, the pair met up and had what apparently was entirely consensual sex. I think we all need to slow down and not leap to conclusions about this man who is no longer alive based on a partial recitation of the story and based on a "memoir" that he did not actually publish. Is it a disturbing incident? Yes? Does he appear to have been disturbed by it in the retelling? Yes. Is telling just this slice of the story, without more, sensationalizing and maybe even trivializing the larger point? I think so. He does not seem to be bragging about the event, but instead uses it as a meditation on human nature. Given the fact that he was married for 54 years and died at an old age without (as far as we know) becoming a serial rapist or indeed doing other horrible things, I think a more nuanced view of this story is in order.
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Anna N.
08/17/09

@pmarble: I don't think anyone's alleging that he was a serial rapist, or that his marriage was a bad one. But the fact that they later had consensual sex doesn't mean he didn't try to rape her (he admits that he did). Nor does it mean that he was right about her "wanting it" when she was 13-15. Obviously we don't know who he was as a whole from this one incident, but I think we can still condemn the incident itself, as well as some aspects of his description of it.
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BeckySharper
08/17/09

@pmarble: Uh, did you read what he said about her?
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InCahoots
08/17/09

@BeckySharper: I wonder, simply to play devil's advocate, what P.O.V. he was using when writing about the incident. Was he retelling the scene as he saw it as an adult, or was he describing it using the mindset he had at the time? That wouldn't change the nature of the event, but does change whether or not we can make claims about the person he became.
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bluebears
08/17/09

@pmarble: I think people are just relying on his own words here. It's not like this is coming from a secondary source, if that was the case I'd be more inclined to want to step back and see the big picture. He fully admits to wanting to force the woman to have sex with him against her will. Like Anna said, at the time of writing about it he seemed to be not exactly contrite as he made many references to her supposedly "wanting it" subconsciously.
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pmarble
08/17/09

@BeckySharper: Uh, did you read the whole piece in the Guardian? The point I was trying to make is that thinking you know about this man and can leap to judgments about him based on this slice of information ignores the whole story of his life and also ignores the fact that it was he who told this story -- suggesting he wasn't some neanderthal who should be condemned out of hand. My reaction is in part to the comments here about "now I'll never read his book."
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PhillyLass
08/17/09

@pmarble: Given his obviously warped views of the girl's sexual availability, it's dangerous to take him at his word that the later encounter was consensual.
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pmarble
08/17/09

@bluebears: I understand that. I just object to sensationalizing based on partial information. For example, what in his heart felt like attempted rape may not have been entirely how the young woman experienced it -- since she did have sex with him and, again according to him, said "do you want to ram it up me" or something like that when they did. This is a complicated subject and people understandably have strong feelings about it, but having read the full article, I don't see it as cut and dried as all you folks seem to.
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BeckySharper
08/17/09

@pmarble: Yes, and any man who tries to justify raping a young girl because she was "depraved by nature" and "sexual as an ape" is not someone whose point of view you should trust. I have read the whole Guardian piece and I'm very skeptical of his claims that the later sex was consensual given how he describes his first encounters with this girl.

You may feel that he's "wasn't some neanderthal who should be condemned out of hand," but I have no problem condemning the violent attempted rape of 13 year olds. I'm surprised you find so much moral ambiguity in it.
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bluebears
08/17/09

@PhillyLass: my thoughts exactly.

@pmarble: I read the whole article as well. I'm not trying to say the guy was an serial rapist or anything, but I do think this speaks pretty clearly to his views on consent and the like.
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Edited by bluebears at 08/17/09 10:43 AM bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred

Maritsa
08/17/09

@BeckySharper: Jesus Christ, really. The only time there would be moral ambiguity in a rape situation would be if the perpetrator genuinely believed there was consent, but there was not (I'm not saying this actually happens). Where he admits it would have been rape, there is no fucking grey area!
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lijakaca
08/17/09

@pmarble: Interesting how even when the (attemped) rapist admits that he tried to rape her, people find it 'amibiguous'. I don't see how it could be any clearer.
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bluebears
08/17/09

@lijakaca: did you read that article with the actress who plays Joan from Madmen? She (character) got raped last season (I don't watch the show) and she says people always come up to her and say like, "raped" with the quote marks. She was like, what? It's not ambiguous, it was rape.
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nanner36
08/17/09

@BeckySharper: If you believe his account of trying to rape a 15 year old girl, then why don't you believe his account that their sex was later consensual? Of course, consensual sex doesn't justify his attempted actions, but your picking and choosing which parts of his account to believe implies that you are predisposed to want to condemn this man who was never tried or convicted of a crime. Could something else--something personal--be going on here with you, other than the story at hand? If so, I'm sorry that happened to you, but you are not this girl, and your protestations and condemnations can do nothing to help her or yourself. It seems that Goldberg had psychological problems, as many writers do, and though that also doesn't excuse his alleged actions, I think it should be taken into consideration. This is a sad story for all involved, but I think your anger is misplaced.
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lijakaca
08/17/09

@bluebears: No, I didn't (probably good since my blood pressure is rising just thinking about it), arrrgh. No wonder it's so hard to get a rape conviction, like, anywhere.
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bluebears
08/17/09

@lijakaca: so frustrating. It just shows what an uphill battle we still have as women.
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utensil42
08/17/09

@nanner36: It's entirely possible that he admits to the early attempted rape because that's how he saw the situation AND that he interpretted the later sex as consensual even if it wasn't and thus describes it as such. You really don't think those two situations are possible together?
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BeckySharper
08/17/09

@nanner36: Because it's obvious that the first time he tried to rape her, he thought she wanted/deserved it. If he did have sex with her later, isn't it just as likely that he was thinking/doing the exact same thing as the first time?
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formergr
08/17/09

@bluebears: That was one of the most chilling rape scenes I've ever scene.
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rednrowdy
08/17/09

In reply to Lord Of The Flies Author Admitted Attempted Underage Assault
Confessing the attempted rape to his wife years after the fact, when it's likely that no restitution could be made, seems more like a selfish unburdening than a generous act of honesty.

as much as i believe in the power of telling the truth, somehow the act of confessing things like this always seems like a selfish act. it's like "okay, wow, the truth set YOU free, but now we all get to live with the knowledge of what YOU did and what YOU kept from all of us for all these years".

i have to say, as much as i cannot imagine how his wife must have felt, there are moments in my own life where i see former paramours of mine and/or friends of mine on facebook with the photos of their wives and kids and i wonder "does she know what an asshole that guy was? does she know what he did?!" i wonder if the current wives knew how they would feel about their 'perfect' families and about getting everything they ever wanted, etc.
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Edited by rednrowdy at 08/17/09 10:00 AM rednrowdy was starred rednrowdy was unstarred

Squirrel-dAway
08/17/09

@rednrowdy: I think of that in context with men who have assaulted women in the past. It makes me shudder to think about it. I know one man who has assaulted at least two women (girls at the time), and it makes me sick to think about the woman he is with now. Do you know he is a rapist? Can you sense something is off? If you can't, is it because he's a sociopath or are you dissociating? Or, is he hurting you too? *Shiver.
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rednrowdy
08/17/09

@Squirrel-dAway: as much as i believe in the whole 'when you know better, you do better' thing, i'm with you...it makes you feel like something really awful is lurking.
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Robyn Bahr
08/17/09

In reply to Lord Of The Flies Author Admitted Attempted Underage Assault
You guys realize there WAS a rape scene in "The Lord of the Flies" - it occurred between a dying boar, a stick, and some of the curious boys slaughtering her. They actual anally or vaginally penetrate her with a stick knowing full well the symbolism of their action.
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VPea
08/17/09

@Robyn Bahr: I fing hated that book and even the Simpsons parody of it
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Anna N.
08/17/09

@Robyn Bahr: I was trying to remember if there was a rape scene in the book. After I saw your comment I looked back at the pig-hunting scenes. One of them definitely has undertones of rape, though it's not quite as explicit as you describe. It's possible that I'm not looking at the right one though.
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bluebears
08/17/09

@Robyn Bahr: OH! ok, I DO remember that. Seriously that book is like one of the more disturbing works of fiction. I still think its an important book though.
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Robyn Bahr
08/17/09

@Anna N.: Hmm, maybe you're right. I don't have a copy and I haven't read it in about six years, but I was SO sure that was the implication. I'm almost positive Golding slyly but assuredly notes they do this to her, though. It was a big deal when we were talking about in in 10th grade English because our teacher then pointed out how horrid it would have been if girls had also crashed with them.
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Zombie Ms. Skittles
08/17/09

In reply to Lord Of The Flies Author Admitted Attempted Underage Assault
You know, I somehow managed to avoid reading this in school and I always meant to do it as I got older. I don't think I could now.
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bluebears
08/17/09

@Zombie Ms. Skittles: oh you should. seriously, its worth it. Its an absolutely chilling book, but its great.
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LaComtesse
08/17/09

@Zombie Ms. Skittles: Indeed you should, to echo bluebears. If you only consumed art produced by upright people, we'd be limited to Hallmark Cards.
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Zombie Ms. Skittles
08/17/09

@LaComtesse: Avoiding Man Men Spoilers Today: Yeah I know, but I know the entire time I read the book now I'll be thinking "rape rape rape rape rape" and it would totally take me out of it. If I did get into it, at some point I'd slip into a weird dissociative state where I ponder his actions. It happens to me a lot.
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iKniter
08/17/09

In reply to Lord Of The Flies Author Admitted Attempted Underage Assault
Well this just makes me want to read "Lord of the Flies" even more so. And I agree, it's very chilling to have the author admit in his own words that he has dark, carnal desires and he had acted upon them.
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BeckySharper
08/17/09

In reply to Lord Of The Flies Author Admitted Attempted Underage Assault
He sounds like an absolutely disgusting human being.
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kithkin
08/17/09

@BeckySharper: Could you imagine if that plane had had girls as well as boys on it? Reading this, I am convinced that every English department chair's favorite tenth grade required reading would have included a graphic scene in which an "ape-like" girl whose "pert, ripe, and desirable mouth" betrays her desire for "heavy sex [?]" is raped.

You know. As an exploration of human nature.
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Edited by kithkin at 08/17/09 9:45 AM kithkin was starred kithkin was unstarred

bluebears
08/17/09

@kithkin: I distinctly remember reading that book and thinking that it would have been so horrible to be on that plane as a girl. It was like I had this feeling of dread about it. Maybe thats why, sick as this is, I'm not exactly shocked. I don't know, I feel like this attitude was even more common back then as it is now, particularly in the sort of upper-class circles he ran in, where entitlement was so huge. Not to excuse it, I'm sure he was despicable.
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letitcrash
08/17/09

@bluebears: Yes! At first when reading it I was like, man, no girls? that's fucked up. and as i kept reading it i was like, wow, this really is fucked up. i'm seriously glad there are no girls.
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BeckySharper
08/17/09

@bluebears: I think one of the boys in LORD OF THE FLIES does get sodomized or something. With a stick? I seem to remember that being hushed up when I read it in 10th grade. I mean, English public school boys? Not a stretch...and after reading this I'm wondering if Golding had first hand experience attacking boys as well as girls.
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bluebears
08/17/09

@BeckySharper: Oh I don't remember the stick/sodomizing scene at all, but I read it in like 8th grade so yeah, probably wasn't discussed in class and I probably didn't pick up on it. I also wonder if he preyed on boys as well. I mean, its really about the power dynamic and if he was in an all boys school...
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lilbobbytables
08/17/09

@BeckySharper: I thought that the boys were planning on doing that to Ralph, but were rescued before they were able to catch him. But god, I remember thinking that was so effed up.
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bluebears
08/17/09

@lilbobbytables is a la-di-da feminist: right. The most chilling message of the book was, these boys get "rescued" but who is there to "rescue" all of humanity? I read once he was heavily influenced by scenes of liberated concentration camps when he wrote the book.
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Callinectes
08/17/09

@lilbobbytables is a la-di-da feminist: Yes. It refers back to the pig-slaughtering scene mentioned in one of the other threads. The quote that seals the deal is "Roger sharpened a stick at both ends." The implications are many: that they are going to kill him and place his head on a stick as an offering to "the beast," as they did with the pig's head; that they are going to subject Ralph to the same sort of sexual violence implicit in that pig-slaughtering scene, etc. (As a side note, there's also thinly-veiled masturbation in this book--look at Simon's "conversation" with the Lord of the Flies.)
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kithkin promoted this comment Edited by Callinectes at 08/17/09 10:21 AM Callinectes was starred Callinectes was unstarred

kithkin
08/17/09

@BeckySharper: Yeah, I hadn't picked up the book in a while so I googled around and found that after they killed a boar by impaling it anally with a sharpened stick and exulted in their power over the helpless, they recreated this scene with another boy.

Yikes.
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keldo
08/17/09

In reply to Lord Of The Flies Author Admitted Attempted Underage Assault
So the 15 year old girl, not Golding, was "depraved by nature". Curious reasoning.
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FrancisElla
05/06/09

In reply to Four Vacation Packages We'd Like To Take!
Oh Little House on the Prairie. As a child, I seriously tried to convince my parents to take me on a month-long, historically accurate, covered wagon trip. Instead, I had to be content with constructing my own covered wagon by pushing two couches together and covering them with a blanket. Not the same!
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boxspelunker
05/06/09

@FrancisElla: Ha! We did this, too. We also had "homesteads", which were boxes in the basement. We farmed and had long winters in which we had to make bundles of "hay" (rope - the same piece) to stay warm.

YEEEEAH. I still really love those books.
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la.donna.pietra
05/06/09

In reply to Four Vacation Packages We'd Like To Take!
I want to go to Wall, but time it right so that I can cross over into Faerie*.

* true loves and royal parentage not included
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la.donna.pietra
05/06/09

In reply to Four Vacation Packages We'd Like To Take!
I will be going on the Tony Hillerman Staycation this summer, right here in Albuquerque.
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Ipomoea
05/06/09

In reply to Four Vacation Packages We'd Like To Take!
True Blood tour of Louisiana?

Anita Blake tour of St. Louis?

Anais Nin's Paris, in which you and your partner move to Paris, then you flirt with your cousin and have an affair with a loud American?
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stealthird
05/06/09

In reply to Four Vacation Packages We'd Like To Take!
I think The Mists of Avalon would be a fun tour. Except for, you know, the incest.

Also, A Tree Grows in Brooklyn . See Willamsburg before it became the overpriced area that it is now.
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