When my ex quits expecting a Nobel Prize in Parenting for putting a goddamned bandaid on our child, I'll be the first in line to help repaint pink walls. #dads
What if Dad IS incompetent, does give advice or make demands that screw the kids up (instead of helping them , or attempting to), and IS wrong? Maybe because of some bullshit or something nasty he learned from his own upbringing?
And by the same token--what if that describes Mom? (It describes MY mom half the time, who rants, raves, threatens, makes a big deal of things my father doesn't, like whether or not my 21 year-old brother's friends could drink a few beers at our house, so long as they didn't get hammered. Never did.)
My parents have different parenting styles. To be fair, my father is more lenient when it comes to everything but school-related safe. None of us have dangerous friends or other dangerous habits, none of us are law-breaking tendencies. My mother makes unilateral decisions, and when my father questions them, she loses her shit. If one or both the parents don't know how to handle things, who gives a shit if they agree? That's the least of the family's problems.
Going back to the idea of at least ONE parent balancing understanding/authority with their kid--who will help the kids when the difference isn't simply one parent "micromanaging" a different-but-legitimate style, but micromanaging because one parent's way of doing things neglect the problem, worsen it, create conflict where there shouldn't be any, or effectively blow that kid off (i.e , when a kid has problems with bullies at school and brings it up to parents, the parent fails to sympathize and simply demands kids meet every challenge to fight that bully at school, shaming them if they seek adults out for help in the future or if they lose a fight?)
Different article, I guess.
Sometimes parental conflict (or even absence) isn't the only thing amiss here....
My dad ties to be more of a friend than a parent which is somewhat effective, but there are times where there is trouble with discipline.
Even with that we (still) get in to all sorts of shenanigans together and its fun. #dads
I do believe that SOME women muscle their male partners out of childrearing a bit--I'm realizing, as I get older, that my mom definitely did that to my dad. But I don't think that's just the woman's fault, as you say--a large part of the problem is the concept of motherhood as the most primal, natural instinct a woman could, or SHOULD, have. I think that women who aren't the primary parent are made to feel like failures, like Unwomen, and a lot of people internalize that. Just look at politicians: it was objectionable to some that Palin was campaigning despite having young children, which would've been irrelevant for a man. Obama Homme spent so much time away from his family due to his jobs in politics, which would've been unthinkable for Obama Femme--she would've seemed cold and monstrous to most people for even being able to do it.
My mom's a hard-core feminist, a high-powered lawyer, the whole shebang, but she was raised by a suburban housewife. And while she has a low opinion of housewifery (overly so, I feel), I think she has such powerful memories of her mother that she identifies with that role. You read/hear sometimes about women who get anxious or hurt if their children look to Dad when they're sick or sad or whatever, which I think is natural given societal expectations. So we DEFINITELY need to give dads more credit--and we also need to value women as anything other than mothers. #dads
One thing this article leaves out is that it is often very difficult to get dads involved in parenting programs.
I used to work on a parenting study. We saw the mom and kid in the lab, but dad only filled out surveys at home. Once a father called me to yell at me- why wasn't he being included in the study?
I had to explain to him that of the 100+ families I'd recruited into the study, this was the first time a father had asked to be involved. Another lab on the same floor did fathering research and they had a horrible time getting dads to come. So the lead researcher on my study had choosen to focus on mothers.
I think we do need to emphasize more that both parents are important, but I don't think it is just pink walls keeping dads out of these programs. #dads
@clevernamehere: But they're BUSY working people doncha know - and can you shut those kids up! I had a hard day at the office and I'm tryin to watch the game. And bring me a beer. #dads
@clevernamehere: I think some men exclude themselves from the parenting equation. I think men find certain tasks to be in the mother's realm, such as doctor's visits and remembering who got what innoculation or measles and when. Certain men still categorize the parenting duties in stereotypical terms. #dads
@ZemarSea Urchin: Exactly. It isn't just men being pushed out. I think a man who wants to be an equal participant can feel discriminated againist, but I think the bigger problem is how many men don't want to be involved. #dads
@clevernamehere: Right, while some men are active particpants as fathers and have a right to feel discrimation. The others (majority in my mind) just hop into the discussion for various reasons but mostly to camaflouge their lack of interest and action. Did that sound jaded? #dads
@ZemarSea Urchin: This is kind of how I feel about this issue. There are men who are primary caregivers, and there are men who show up often enough and consistently enough to encounter systematic discrimination like this, so the issue is important and should be addressed. But bringing it up so publicly also provides cover for the one-weekend-a-month or one-holiday-a-year dads, so they can jump in and say, "Yeah, that's why I don't parent my kids more! I get funny looks!" Intellectually I know I should ignore them in favor of supporting involved parents, but emotionally I get so frustrated by "men's rights" blowhards that I'm loathe to give them any ammo. I'll get over it, I'm sure. #dads
"...but these are pretty sweeping generalizations. I know my dad..."
I knew that would happen. This is innacurate because MY dad wasn't like this.
He was hardly saying that every single father on the planet acted a certain way, but considering he is a doctor who wrote a book on the subject, can't we give him the benefit of the doubt that he has maybe noticed patterns among the behavior of both genders? Sure, it won't apply to every single mom and dad out there, but discounting it because it doesn't apply to your individual father doesn't really help, either. #dads
@DJDeeJay: Yeah this is starting to get on my nerves too. In general, not just on this site. Somewhere else they posted a graph re: white men's voting patterns and how they are not progressive and naturally the comments were full of "I'm white and I voted for Obama so there!" comments. That doesn't disprove anything. #dads
@DJDeeJay: Ugh, I have pointed this out so many times, here and elsewhere. I call it the "this one time at band camp" argument. "I am going to disprove every kind of science ever with my own sense of special-ness! I did one thing this one time!" #dads
@SarahMC: Yeah. I don't know. Part of me is thinks it's important to point out the limits of generalizations. But part of me is thinks, we're all adults, we get that generalizations don't apply to everyone, let's move on.
Like you said, the exceptions to the rule don't disprove the rule.
But isn't this the kind of place to open up the discussion to our own experiences?
It's important to explore why the generalizations hold true (hint: it's usually not coded in the DNA but results from conditioning, inequalities, etc.).
Refuting the generalization doesn't prove the generalization wrong. #dads
@SarahMC: Good point. I feel like it's such a knee-jerk reaction, on this site and elsewhere, to automatically discredit any generalizations made about either gender.
It's like, "OMG, someone generalized about men but didn't state the obvious that this doesn't apply to ALL MEN! Sound the alarms! Release the dogs!" #dads
My mom micro-managed my father very much the way this article describes it. However, this was because my dad actually WAS as ridiculously incompetent as any sitcom dad stereotype we bemoan all the time. Offenses included things like losing my 1 and a half year old self in a mall while my mom was in a store, and not even noticing til she came back, letting me use the big-kid playground when I was several years below the posted age, resulting in me smashing up my face, and not realizing a 2 year old me had dragged a chair to the counter and climbed up on it until I had burned myself on the iron.
Sometimes I think I would just like to have a kid by myself because all of this resulted in my growing up with some major control issues and I know it is going to kill me to let my partner do anything on their own when it comes to any potential future children #dads
@colormeroutine: I feel similarly. If my future performance mirrored my father's parenting skills, I'd probably use my children as doorstops. I don't think I am brave enough to go it alone, like you, so I'll probably opt out all together. #dads
@voteforme: I think so, too. @Gavagirl has a really good point - safety is a woman's prerogative, men don't have pain receptors! We train girls from an early age how to care for and love babies. We do not do the same for boys. Girls play with dolls and play "house", are encouraged to play "wedding" or other domestic-type games, and boys are more likely to be encouraged to play imagination hero or space pilot or some career-oriented game.
Of course, those are also sweeping generalizations, but the cultural pressure is there, no matter what parents do. #dads
@boxspelunker: I definitely read "play wedding" as "play welding." I would rather play "welding" any day. I was trying to explain my beef with gendered toys to my mother in law the other day, and she seemed completely bewildered. *sigh* #dads
@Torra: A welding wedding! That sounds like fun, indeed.
I think that a lot of people who were raised in a gendered way, identify in that way, and have fond memories of it, have a hard time understanding how it might be limiting or harmful to others. My mom has somewhat of an understanding, but always insists that I need to be more "feminine". Her original worry was that I'd never get a boyfriend. Nothing has changed about me, yet I have one. Now, it's "don't you want to look your best? Take better care of yourself?". Because it's fun for her, she can't seem to understand why it's not fun for me. :/ #dads
I have seen the stereotypical, "Oh, he just doesn't know what he's doing!" reaction to fathers attempting to parent (mom does all the changing, feeding, burping, etc.), especially with newborns. And I think part of it comes from the fact that babies are so freaking breakable that some moms get nervous when anybody else holds them. That said, it's by no means universal. #dads
@yvanehtnioj: I've noticed this with mothers I've been around, too. They freak out about leaving their babies with their husbands. I know that it's your baby and you don't want anything to happen to it, but (having never been a mother and not knowing a damn thing about the scary post-pregnancy hormones) it seems like if you figured out how to do this, unless he is TOTALLY incompetent and might mistake the baby for a turkey which he then bastes and sticks in the oven, he should be able to figure out how to take care of a child by himself for a couple hours while you take a bath or see a movie or something. #dads
A kid at my daughter's school showed up yesterday dressed as a geisha, complete with yellowface makeup. While I think some of these bans may go over the top, I do believe there are some parents who don't have the sense to come in out of the rain and may occasionally need a gentle reminder of basic common sense. #halloweencostumes
I'm surprised kids are still allowed to dress up for school at all. Where I live, it's a practice long abandoned because it takes up too much time according to the schedules set up by No Child Left Behind. My mom's class has a little room-parents Halloween party and they do some Halloween arts and crafts leading up to the day, but other than that, no more Halloween in school. #halloweencostumes
Today I'm at my office dressed as the one thing that scares adults the most: a Tween girl. Hannah Montana shirt and all.
I remember masks being banned in elementary school, but not "scary costumes". Seriously, what the hell? Now kids who didn't go costume shopping until the last minute can't just cut two holes in a sheet and go as a ghost? Ridiculous. #halloweencostumes
Halloween was originally about scaring away demons and other baddies, yes? So the whole idea is to be scarier than the things that scare you.
To me, Halloween has always been about having fun with the things are a bit darker about life. Things that scare or horrify you...death, the undead, etc.
I think the quote about some people thinking it's "satanic" is telling...there has always been a superstitious element that objects to Halloween's pagan roots, even if they don't always know that's what they're doing.
Also, I don't know if anyone has noticed this but...childhood is scary sometimes. Kids should be allowed to explore that if they want to, especially in a such harmless way as a Halloween costume. To me, it's like people freaking out about their kids dyeing their hair pink or blue. Kids need outlets and ways to express themselves. Better than drugs or actually self-destructive behavior. #halloweencostumes
@tiredfairy: I think, though, that part of it - at least in elementary schools - is that older kids (5th-6th grade) were wearing costumes that went beyond obviously fake blood and zombies and scaring the crap out of younger kids (think Pre-K or K). My mom works at an elementary school and I've helped out there for various things. I can remember older kids coming as surprisingly realistic things like car accident victims or serial killers and going out of their way to seriously terrify the youngest kids in the hall. Part of that is a behavior issue, but I don't think there is a problem with these rules. I think the scary costume rule applies to issues like these, not classics like vampires, ghosts, etc. #halloweencostumes
@SparklyTempest: Kids that young were always in separate schools where I grew up, so they weren't around any older students. I can see some of it, masks make sense because then you can't tell who kids are...but I'm not sure this is being limited to just "realistically" gruesome.
But then, kids go trick or treating, yes? One would think they'd see that then, too. And it's important for kids to learn about what's real and what isn't.
It sounds like it's any scary or "non wholesome" costume. I just personally think that's ridiculous. And I think there's an odd, superstitiousness, underpinning this. Plus a lot of the weird sanitizing of everything. It's not the worst thing in the world for a kid to get scared, and if you prepare kids ahead of time, it should be fine. #halloweencostumes
@tiredfairy: I agree. I mean, who is it harming when a kid has neon hair? That kind of thing is impermanent. It'll go away soon enough. Frankly, most people just grow out of it and no longer desire to have purple liberty spikes after a certain time period.
I think that if we want to promote equality and tolerance, we should help break down stereotypes of "person with piercings = murderer", too. Besides, if you can't do it before you have to get a job, when can you do it? #halloweencostumes
@tiredfairy: True. I think, though, it is easier for parents to prevent young kids from the scariest of the scary when supervising trick-or-treating. At the schools I went to everyone intermingled at various points in the halls, the lunchroom, etc. (sometimes even with much older kids - I went to some schools that were pre-K through 8th or pre-K through 10th). I think parents do need to prepare kids to be scared, but I guess I can think of enough really scary stuff in the world they'll have to deal with without freaking them out on what should be a fun holiday for them.
I think the "non-wholesome" side of this is ridiculous too - my high school had all sorts of rules about what color you could dye your hair, piercings, etc. that were out of hand. That being said, I don't really have as much of a problem with the really scary stuff being restricted in elementary schools. It is a bit much in middle or high school, but I think about 3-year-old pre-K at some schools and think those kids may be a bit young for some things. #halloweencostumes
But I thought the whole point is to be scary and evil? Or is this just my Catholic education talking? Our principal dressed up as the Wicked Witch every Halloween... and once for Christmas, as a matter of fact.
I can't help feeling like we're so sanitized and removed from gore and superstition and darkness all the time, that it's nice to take time out to revel in it. #halloweencostumes
The rules should really be age appropriate. For instance, when I was in kindergarten I was so frightened by a kid dressed as a vampire on my bus, I refused to ride it home. The principal had to call my parents. But older kids....why not? #halloweencostumes
11/03/09
11/03/09
And by the same token--what if that describes Mom? (It describes MY mom half the time, who rants, raves, threatens, makes a big deal of things my father doesn't, like whether or not my 21 year-old brother's friends could drink a few beers at our house, so long as they didn't get hammered. Never did.)
My parents have different parenting styles. To be fair, my father is more lenient when it comes to everything but school-related safe. None of us have dangerous friends or other dangerous habits, none of us are law-breaking tendencies. My mother makes unilateral decisions, and when my father questions them, she loses her shit. If one or both the parents don't know how to handle things, who gives a shit if they agree? That's the least of the family's problems.
Going back to the idea of at least ONE parent balancing understanding/authority with their kid--who will help the kids when the difference isn't simply one parent "micromanaging" a different-but-legitimate style, but micromanaging because one parent's way of doing things neglect the problem, worsen it, create conflict where there shouldn't be any, or effectively blow that kid off (i.e , when a kid has problems with bullies at school and brings it up to parents, the parent fails to sympathize and simply demands kids meet every challenge to fight that bully at school, shaming them if they seek adults out for help in the future or if they lose a fight?)
Different article, I guess.
Sometimes parental conflict (or even absence) isn't the only thing amiss here....
11/03/09
Even with that we (still) get in to all sorts of shenanigans together and its fun. #dads
11/03/09
My mom's a hard-core feminist, a high-powered lawyer, the whole shebang, but she was raised by a suburban housewife. And while she has a low opinion of housewifery (overly so, I feel), I think she has such powerful memories of her mother that she identifies with that role. You read/hear sometimes about women who get anxious or hurt if their children look to Dad when they're sick or sad or whatever, which I think is natural given societal expectations. So we DEFINITELY need to give dads more credit--and we also need to value women as anything other than mothers. #dads
11/03/09
I used to work on a parenting study. We saw the mom and kid in the lab, but dad only filled out surveys at home. Once a father called me to yell at me- why wasn't he being included in the study?
I had to explain to him that of the 100+ families I'd recruited into the study, this was the first time a father had asked to be involved. Another lab on the same floor did fathering research and they had a horrible time getting dads to come. So the lead researcher on my study had choosen to focus on mothers.
I think we do need to emphasize more that both parents are important, but I don't think it is just pink walls keeping dads out of these programs. #dads
11/03/09
11/03/09
11/03/09
11/03/09
11/04/09
11/03/09
I knew that would happen. This is innacurate because MY dad wasn't like this.
He was hardly saying that every single father on the planet acted a certain way, but considering he is a doctor who wrote a book on the subject, can't we give him the benefit of the doubt that he has maybe noticed patterns among the behavior of both genders? Sure, it won't apply to every single mom and dad out there, but discounting it because it doesn't apply to your individual father doesn't really help, either. #dads
11/03/09
11/03/09
11/03/09
Like you said, the exceptions to the rule don't disprove the rule.
But isn't this the kind of place to open up the discussion to our own experiences?
Ugh, yeah. Color me torn. #dads
11/03/09
It's important to explore why the generalizations hold true (hint: it's usually not coded in the DNA but results from conditioning, inequalities, etc.).
Refuting the generalization doesn't prove the generalization wrong. #dads
11/04/09
It's like, "OMG, someone generalized about men but didn't state the obvious that this doesn't apply to ALL MEN! Sound the alarms! Release the dogs!" #dads
11/03/09
Sometimes I think I would just like to have a kid by myself because all of this resulted in my growing up with some major control issues and I know it is going to kill me to let my partner do anything on their own when it comes to any potential future children #dads
11/03/09
11/03/09
11/03/09
Of course, those are also sweeping generalizations, but the cultural pressure is there, no matter what parents do. #dads
11/03/09
11/03/09
I think that a lot of people who were raised in a gendered way, identify in that way, and have fond memories of it, have a hard time understanding how it might be limiting or harmful to others. My mom has somewhat of an understanding, but always insists that I need to be more "feminine". Her original worry was that I'd never get a boyfriend. Nothing has changed about me, yet I have one. Now, it's "don't you want to look your best? Take better care of yourself?". Because it's fun for her, she can't seem to understand why it's not fun for me. :/ #dads
11/03/09
11/03/09
10/30/09
10/30/09
So no Lindsay Lohan costume then?
(I'M KIDDING. BAngieB's gonna take a hit out on me.) #halloweencostumes
10/30/09
10/30/09
I remember masks being banned in elementary school, but not "scary costumes". Seriously, what the hell? Now kids who didn't go costume shopping until the last minute can't just cut two holes in a sheet and go as a ghost? Ridiculous. #halloweencostumes
10/30/09
To me, Halloween has always been about having fun with the things are a bit darker about life. Things that scare or horrify you...death, the undead, etc.
I think the quote about some people thinking it's "satanic" is telling...there has always been a superstitious element that objects to Halloween's pagan roots, even if they don't always know that's what they're doing.
Also, I don't know if anyone has noticed this but...childhood is scary sometimes. Kids should be allowed to explore that if they want to, especially in a such harmless way as a Halloween costume. To me, it's like people freaking out about their kids dyeing their hair pink or blue. Kids need outlets and ways to express themselves. Better than drugs or actually self-destructive behavior. #halloweencostumes
10/30/09
10/30/09
But then, kids go trick or treating, yes? One would think they'd see that then, too. And it's important for kids to learn about what's real and what isn't.
It sounds like it's any scary or "non wholesome" costume. I just personally think that's ridiculous. And I think there's an odd, superstitiousness, underpinning this. Plus a lot of the weird sanitizing of everything. It's not the worst thing in the world for a kid to get scared, and if you prepare kids ahead of time, it should be fine. #halloweencostumes
10/30/09
I think that if we want to promote equality and tolerance, we should help break down stereotypes of "person with piercings = murderer", too. Besides, if you can't do it before you have to get a job, when can you do it? #halloweencostumes
10/30/09
I think the "non-wholesome" side of this is ridiculous too - my high school had all sorts of rules about what color you could dye your hair, piercings, etc. that were out of hand. That being said, I don't really have as much of a problem with the really scary stuff being restricted in elementary schools. It is a bit much in middle or high school, but I think about 3-year-old pre-K at some schools and think those kids may be a bit young for some things. #halloweencostumes
10/30/09
I can't help feeling like we're so sanitized and removed from gore and superstition and darkness all the time, that it's nice to take time out to revel in it. #halloweencostumes
10/30/09