You come over to my house, and you set a really nice tomato down on my table.
"Here," you say. "This is from my garden. I want you to have this. I have way too many, and many of my tomatoes are going to die before I can use them. But I think we can get some mutual pleasure from this exchange. This tomato is now yours. It's inside your house and whatever happens to it, happens to it."
"Great," I say. "Thanks."
Now, it turns out that that was a nice heirloom non-hybridized tomato, so the seeds are good for creating new tomato plants. If I decide to plant some of the seeds from the tomato, there's a chance I could get a whole new plant of my own--but then I'd have to water it and take care of it. I could just eat the damn thing, or let it rot. I'd then have to dispose of it safely somehow.
If I decide to grow my own tomato plant, you don't get to come over to my house and yell at me about OH MY GOD YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE DONE THAT, YOU'RE SO IRRESPONSIBLE. If I decide to eat the damn thing or throw it away, you don't get to come over to my house and say YOU ASSHOLE, I WANTED US TO HAVE LOTS OF TOMATO PLANTS TOGETHER.
Oh I'm sorry - do parents actually give a shit what they get for Mother's and Father's Day? I was under the impression that they were faking it and really just wanted the day in bed.
Good fathers do not get enough credit or recognition in this society, in part because we still do not acknowledge that someone other than a vagina-toting person can successfully care for children. If I ever hear one more reference to Mr. Mom....
But I would suggest that our society's obsession with the constant acquisition of new things, no matter how many old things we have, is not really the best way to express this respect! Further, forcing a woman to carry and give birth to a baby she doesn't want is an excellent way to start on a well-deserved sentence in hell. Just sayin'!
So - The Point: U R missing it.
(Also, and not for nothing, but if I hear one more whiny dad saying "hey, we change diapers!" I will slap that moron across the back of the head. What the hell do you want, asshole? A fucking cookie*? It's your job).
@ellaesther: Good fathers don't get credit? Hell, just look at all those studies that show having a penis in the house will change whether or not the kid grows up to be a convict. So I'd say they get way too much credit, and have too many excuses made for them.
@Ginmar Rienne: Come Again? Studies show that when children have good loving fathers they tend do better in life than those who don't. I call that common sense, not giving them way too much credit. Are you arguing against the facts of life?
@checkyaself: I'm arguing against mistaking money for love, seeing as how it appears to be an economic difference. It's not like there aren't decades worth of studies showing that fathers don't do the shitwork of raising kids.
Geoff Williams needs to work out his issues with his wife rather than on CNN. He gave her something she asked for, but then complains that her surprise gifts weren't good enough. Why didn't he ask for something rather than expecting her to read his mind?
I'm also really disgusted that it was the Herculean task for him to feed his daughters for two days. He claims he didn't get the good stuff because he was paying for the sins of past generations, totally missing the fact that he's not an involved father by modern standards.
My family has always treated Mother's Day and Father's Day equally. My dad (like many dads) is really hard to buy for so I usually end up getting him a dvd box set of something like Back to the Future or Lethal Weapon. This year it's a selection of James Bond dvds.
I think maybe Geoff Williams should talk to his wife about gifts. I love how he's boiled it all down to who gets the best stuff. Right, because that's what it's about: accumulating stuff.
Maybe my family was just cheap, but we've always just done homemade presents for Father's Day AND Mother's Day. Even when the kids got to be too old for our homemade prezzies to be cute anymore. It has never been about the "stuff" at all, just a day to honor the parent, write down some heartfelt and sappy words about them, and spend some time together doing something fun after brunch.
Imagine how gypped Geoff Williams would feel if I were his daughter or wife!
This guy's bitchy whining aside, I do kind of think that what he says has a point: as holidays go, Father's Day can be fairly neglected. Maybe it is because of the "sins of the fathers" type of thing, but I believe it's because mothers have generally had more of an impact, because they've had to do more of the work, and people recognize that. I mean, how many Academy Awards or Grammy acceptance speeches have thanked their mothers?!
Anyway, as my dad has become more involved in my life, after my mom left/went even crazier, I've noticed how much I HAVE neglected him. Maybe it just changes from family to family, you know? And sometimes, the stereotype that the father is supposed to be stoic and uncaring about feelings or presents persists--regardless, you should always show that you love the people you care about, especially your parents. People may complain that men do nothing, but that's not *all* men, and I don't think that any gift I could give my dad could be enough to show my gratitude.
Okay dudes, pay attention. Don't want to be a father? Here, have some condoms. Don't want to be a father but don't want to use condoms? Here, have a vasectomy. The woman trapping men in a relationship via pregnancy problem? SOLVED!
@syneblue: the same could be said about women who finds themselves with an unplanned pregnancy. so, in other words, you might want to chew on this thought a few and come back to us.
@bess marvin, girl detective: Definitely. Its much more complicated than all that. In the end its my right to choose what to do with my body, but if I were in a situation whereby the pregnancy was unplanned or unwanted, I would definitely talk to the father of the child at length and get his input. I'd owe him that much, at the very least. Unless its a case of rape or some extenuating circumstance, if the man is to be saddled with the financial responsibilities of having a child, the least you can do is hear him out on whether or not he wants it.
In the end we still get to make the decision because its our body.
@bess marvin, girl detective: Don't want to be a mom? Go on the pill! Don't want to use the pill? Use a sponge, spermicide lube, female condom, diaphram, get an IUD, use Plan B, or all of the above. If that doesn't work (for any various reason), have an abortion. Don't want to have an abortion but don't want to be a mom? Have the baby and put it up for adoption. Options: you have them.
@syneblue: life is going to smack you in the face for thinking that situations involving children and biology are so black and white. call me when it does, i might have an ointment that can get it off.
@syneblue: I want to hug you for bringing the no nonsense common sense to this whole thing. Don't want a child--use contraception. Before one has sex though, I fully and firmly believe in having the "ok, Buddy, just so you know--if I get preggo-this is what I'm doing..." talk. I've even had it while making out with one night stand. Forewarned is forearmed.
@waltzing_delilah: look, i'm the first person to criticize people when they bring up the word "complicated" when it comes to unsafe sex. there's nothing complicated about asking your partner to use a condom. it should be your responsiblity and no one else because a man does not have to carry a baby to term or deal with the choice of getting an abortion.
however, this commenter being so flippant on difficult and IRREVERSIBLE decisions such as abortion and vasectomies is ridiculous. if that's the kind of no-nonsense approach you celebrate, then stop read this, because there is just no meeting of the minds.
Neither day is a big deal in my family. My mother actually gets really annoyed if we celebrate it. My father will call me two weeks in advance to schedule his Father's Day dinner though.
@maggeimerc: These discussions are never relevant to me because in my family, we don't go all out for birthdays or holidays. I send cards and sometimes if I find something really special I'll save it and send it on that day. My parents don't give each other anything for their anniversary, either (go ahead with the "in bed" jokes).
@maggeimerc: @SarahMC: I'm doing this!: my family is the same. we'll have brunch. for my parents 35 anniversary they had a small party but otherwise no presents or anything. we do the card thing but thats about it.
I really do think that when it comes to parenting, dads have it harder than moms in some ways. (I'm not talking about the workforce and such, where obviously it's much harder to be a mother.) There's a huge stereotype against dads; look at how many more good moms there are on tv than good dads. Rarely do you see a man helping equally with the kids and the housework. They tend to be bumbling, workaholics, or abusive.
When it comes to reproductive rights, I definitely think that it's all the woman's decision ultimately, since she's the one carrying the kid for nine months, but both parents are important and hopefully will share responsibility after the child is born, so I think men should get some input when it comes to those decisions.
@Kate2.18: Don't you see how those media stereotypes end up helping rather than hurting dads? The ones they hurt most is women, 'cause we get stuck juggling all the responsibilities.
@SarahMC: I'm doing this!: I don't see how they help either sex at all. They kind of let guys off the hook when it comes to household and parenting responsibilities (while the women sighs but smiles at her incompetent husband and proceeds to do all the work herself), but I don't think that's doing any favors.
@Kate2.18: Any favors as far as what? The bar has been lowered so much that dads like our author here write articles whining about how he doesn't get better gifts for not killing his kids when he's left alone w/ them.
"The reason men don't get to decide whether women carry their fetuses to term isn't because they're "soulless contributors of DNA" - it's because they are not the ones carrying the fetus. As much as it sucks for John Stachokus, he has the privilege and limitation of not being able to bear a child. If he wants to have a kid, someone else has to carry it for him. It's not fair, but neither is the fact that women have to bear all the risks of pregnancy and the pain of childbirth. Do we want to live in a society where a man can force a woman to undertake these risks? What if tragedy struck and Stachokus's girlfriend died in childbirth?"
This is a strawmen, yeah sure the guy could have a kid with someone else. But that doesn't change the belief (or to him a fact) that one of his children were killed by another mother.
Also I think arguments about "fair" and "unfair" when it comes to anatomy really doesn't apply. Especially when there isn't an alternative to make it "fair", those two words simply should not exist.
Of course I'm weary at the idea that all women are forced to have children if the father wants them to, rape cases come to mind. But I do think there should be some power and the proper channels for a father to have his child if he wants it.
As for the last argument about what if a tragedy befell the mother during childbirth, last I check in this day of medicine that is quite the rarity. But if it is earlier determined that the mother may die trying to deliever the child, she definitely has the choice.
@Deaf Mute: Oh, it's so nice of you to let us have a choice if we MIGHT DIE in childbirth. Seriously? Who decides? Well, let's see, you're a hemophiliac who might bleed our during birth - abortion OK! But you have a bad heart and probably won't die - abortion denied!!
@greengrey (raidersofthelostSTAR): I'm only nameing a couple ideas, I'm not proposing a specific form of legislation or regulations (as I haven't pondered enough the consequences):
- Whether or not the father can support the child on his own, this is most important. No point in forcing a woman to keep the child if the father can't support it.
- Relationship of the parents (this is pretty vague honestly).
- The woman shouldn't have to pay the medical bills for the pregnancy, if she doesn't want it she shouldn't have to pay (more) for it.
And keep in mind, I believe that most importantly the health of the mother matters overall.
Not that I don't doubt you, would you mind citing some sources for me (my connection at the moment is pretty bad). I'd especially appreciate any that give age information as well.
Also I want ao add a disclaimier to my earlier point about the state of modern day medication, I'm applying this only for first world countires that actually have good practices and standards.
@Deaf Mute: I'm sorry, the concession you're willing to give is that the mom shouldn't have to pay for pregnancy-related costs? I mean, screw her bodily autonomy, but let's not make her PAY for it, cause that would be truly unfair.
And frankly if you're forcing her to be an incubator in this twisted little scenario, more than not making her pay, you should really compensate her. For the lost earnings, the physical pain, and the general inconvenience.
@Deaf Mute: All the things you mentioned are things a person could offer the other person if they're serious, but there should be no legal requirement to accept those terms. At all.
And really, it still boils down to obligating and/or forcing someone to go through pregnancy and delivery. I just can't get behind that.
If you're that emphatically anti-abortion I really think you should be having other conversations before you even engage in sex.
@greengrey (raidersofthelostSTAR): Not to mention, a giy using a condom means he doesn't want it. So sorry, I call BS on men who are using BC/sleeping with women on BC actually wanting the kid, otherwise, why are they using a condom if they want it?
If they wanted a kid, they'd go out and find a woman who wants one too. Not me.
@greengrey (raidersofthelostSTAR): Eh. I don't agree with this poster, but I am confident that there are men out there using condoms who may not want children, but want those children aborted even less. Isn't that the story of every woman who gets pregnant on birth control and chooses to keep it?
@greengrey (raidersofthelostSTAR): I don't agree with the op at all but you can be on BC, get pregnant and find out that you want THAT child. It happened to my husband and I. So while I don't believe that a man should ever be able to force a woman to carry a child she does not want, I think it is a bit ignorant to imply that a man in that situation would not be entitled to any emotions.
How would this be resolved in different situations? For example:
A woman gets pregnant and the man wants nothing do with the child. They used protection and she was on the pill. He does not and has never wanted to be a father. She decides to have the child anyway. So, does the guy have the choice to opt out of fatherhood or is he to be forced into being a father just because she decided to keep it.
I don't know but I would hate it if someone decided to strap me with a child that I did not want. Also, I described a situation that happened to my brother. Fortunately, he found a way out of it (she had a miscarriage).
@Ms. Ville Valo: Men are not "saddled" with the kid. Millions of kids live without dads. Some of them get child support, but many, many do not. It's not like the state straps the kid to it's bio dad and forces the guy to raise it.
@SarahMC: I'm doing this!: Yeah but try being the guy who is ignoring his kid because some girl said she didn't want kids and then got pregnant and changed her mind. Trust, this guy will never have sex again.
@Ms. Ville Valo: You're right, it isn't fair for the man, but it really isn't fair for the kid to not get support they deserve.
I don't think we can make reproduction fair. If a man knows he never, ever wants a child and he would hate being, he can get a vasectomy. Its not a perfect solution, but its a better one than forcing a woman to get an abortion or making the state pick up the tab for his offspring.
@SarahMC: I'm doing this!: you are right, they aren't forced to unless (in my experience with my male friends) the mother decides to pursue child support, then they are forced to pay child support by the state.
@thePrototype: OK? And? Should children not be supported financially by both people who created them? Child support is a joke that covers about 1/100th of what it takes to bring up a child.
@Ms. Ville Valo: Wow I've never seen a sentence that started in "Fortunately" and ended with "she had a miscarriage". And that certainly doesn't seem like he "found a way out of it". I truly hope her miscarriage had nothing to do with him.
Bottom line is that you choose who you have sex with, and its important to know where that person stands when it comes to unexpected pregnancy. Sometimes tough things happen in life even though you take every precaution to prevent them. Often huge responsibilities are placed on our shoulders despite our best efforts. Most importantly we certainly cannot allow a woman or child's rights to be infringed upon because we don't want those responsibilities.
@Ms. Ville Valo: Regardless of the sex, I think we need some sort of alimony / child support reform that addresses the "leech-spouse" phenomena - make child support a tax-free contribution, but tax alimony as you would any other income.
I think that for women (recipients), this would be a plus, because I believe it would reduce dead-beat dads to a degree, due to basic affordability, and a stricter delineation of the purpose of these payments. The child gets the priority and there's less motivation to constantly "twist the knife" financially by the adults. If the alimony is your sole source of income, it's still YOUR income. If it puts you in a higher tax bracket, do you really need the alimony?
@JerseyGrrrl: He sounds like a very responsible fellow. People forget that abstinence is the most responsible and healthy thing to do. Unfortunately, any degree of responsibility is difficult to instill in men or women. So, condoms it is!
@Jack_Burton: Your proposed solution to the "leech spouse" syndrome is, in fact, the law. Alimony received is taxable income. Alimony paid is deductible from your income. Child support is not taxed.
@Ms. Ville Valo: This is always the hypothetical that gets brought up, and I gotta say...
If a couple is using condoms and birth control, then they've likely had a conversation about what they'll do in case of unplanned pregnancy.
Some women are just fine with raising a child on their own if they don't want to keep ties to the biological father. No money involved.
If guys are so freaking terrified of women stealing their sperm, why are so many of them eager to have sex without a condom?
It's so odd to hear this sort of thing when pharmacists can still refuse to hand out birth control for religious reasons and abortion clinics are nonexistent in many cities. I hope all the men fighting to opt out are just as eager in making sure women have access to every option possible - including maternity leave, health care and child care.
Someone is going to end up paying for children. And unless these same men (and women) who've procreated spearhead a massive socialist overhaul of the system, it's going to be them.
@Ms. Ville Valo: Shit happens. Women ahve to deal with it. So should men. This is nothing but a return to old-fashioned abandonment, with the added bonus that we get to pay for the kids these whiners strew behind them, like used condoms---and that's if they even use condoms.
@Ginmar Rienne: Yes, and women can deal with it by having an abortion if they don't want to become a mother. Our choice (thank god, for right now anyway) does not begin and end with the sex act ourselves. We have an "out" if we don't want to be parents. Men should also have an "out", so long as they make that clear immediately in the pregnancy -- that way, the woman would understand he will not be contributing financially or emotionally to the child and she can decide if she wants to take on that burden on her own. If she does, great. If not, abortion is legal.
@moonybattyjuicey: I assume you'd say the same thing to women seeking abortions, right? If you don't want kids, don't have sex with somebody who can get you pregnant. Women have the choice, except in instances of rape, to not have penises stuck in their vaginas.
I have total womb envy when it comes to being pregnant. I would carry a kid if I could. That being said, no one should have a say in what someone else does with their body. Period. Men who complain about not having a say need to stfu.
06/19/09
"Here," you say. "This is from my garden. I want you to have this. I have way too many, and many of my tomatoes are going to die before I can use them. But I think we can get some mutual pleasure from this exchange. This tomato is now yours. It's inside your house and whatever happens to it, happens to it."
"Great," I say. "Thanks."
Now, it turns out that that was a nice heirloom non-hybridized tomato, so the seeds are good for creating new tomato plants. If I decide to plant some of the seeds from the tomato, there's a chance I could get a whole new plant of my own--but then I'd have to water it and take care of it. I could just eat the damn thing, or let it rot. I'd then have to dispose of it safely somehow.
If I decide to grow my own tomato plant, you don't get to come over to my house and yell at me about OH MY GOD YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE DONE THAT, YOU'RE SO IRRESPONSIBLE. If I decide to eat the damn thing or throw it away, you don't get to come over to my house and say YOU ASSHOLE, I WANTED US TO HAVE LOTS OF TOMATO PLANTS TOGETHER.
You see where I'm going with this.
06/19/09
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06/19/09
BOOM. Insta-over kill will be theirs.
06/19/09
But I would suggest that our society's obsession with the constant acquisition of new things, no matter how many old things we have, is not really the best way to express this respect! Further, forcing a woman to carry and give birth to a baby she doesn't want is an excellent way to start on a well-deserved sentence in hell. Just sayin'!
So - The Point: U R missing it.
(Also, and not for nothing, but if I hear one more whiny dad saying "hey, we change diapers!" I will slap that moron across the back of the head. What the hell do you want, asshole? A fucking cookie*? It's your job).
* (R) C. Rock
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I'm also really disgusted that it was the Herculean task for him to feed his daughters for two days. He claims he didn't get the good stuff because he was paying for the sins of past generations, totally missing the fact that he's not an involved father by modern standards.
06/19/09
I think maybe Geoff Williams should talk to his wife about gifts. I love how he's boiled it all down to who gets the best stuff. Right, because that's what it's about: accumulating stuff.
06/19/09
Maybe my family was just cheap, but we've always just done homemade presents for Father's Day AND Mother's Day. Even when the kids got to be too old for our homemade prezzies to be cute anymore. It has never been about the "stuff" at all, just a day to honor the parent, write down some heartfelt and sappy words about them, and spend some time together doing something fun after brunch.
Imagine how gypped Geoff Williams would feel if I were his daughter or wife!
06/19/09
Anyway, as my dad has become more involved in my life, after my mom left/went even crazier, I've noticed how much I HAVE neglected him. Maybe it just changes from family to family, you know? And sometimes, the stereotype that the father is supposed to be stoic and uncaring about feelings or presents persists--regardless, you should always show that you love the people you care about, especially your parents. People may complain that men do nothing, but that's not *all* men, and I don't think that any gift I could give my dad could be enough to show my gratitude.
06/19/09
06/19/09
The woman trapping men in a relationship via pregnancy problem? SOLVED!
06/19/09
06/19/09
In the end we still get to make the decision because its our body.
06/19/09
Options: you have them.
06/19/09
06/19/09
06/19/09
however, this commenter being so flippant on difficult and IRREVERSIBLE decisions such as abortion and vasectomies is ridiculous. if that's the kind of no-nonsense approach you celebrate, then stop read this, because there is just no meeting of the minds.
06/19/09
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06/19/09
When it comes to reproductive rights, I definitely think that it's all the woman's decision ultimately, since she's the one carrying the kid for nine months, but both parents are important and hopefully will share responsibility after the child is born, so I think men should get some input when it comes to those decisions.
06/19/09
06/19/09
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06/19/09
This is a strawmen, yeah sure the guy could have a kid with someone else. But that doesn't change the belief (or to him a fact) that one of his children were killed by another mother.
Also I think arguments about "fair" and "unfair" when it comes to anatomy really doesn't apply. Especially when there isn't an alternative to make it "fair", those two words simply should not exist.
Of course I'm weary at the idea that all women are forced to have children if the father wants them to, rape cases come to mind. But I do think there should be some power and the proper channels for a father to have his child if he wants it.
As for the last argument about what if a tragedy befell the mother during childbirth, last I check in this day of medicine that is quite the rarity. But if it is earlier determined that the mother may die trying to deliever the child, she definitely has the choice.
06/19/09
Such as?
06/19/09
Jesus. I can't even deal with people sometimes.
06/19/09
- Whether or not the father can support the child on his own, this is most important. No point in forcing a woman to keep the child if the father can't support it.
- Relationship of the parents (this is pretty vague honestly).
- The woman shouldn't have to pay the medical bills for the pregnancy, if she doesn't want it she shouldn't have to pay (more) for it.
And keep in mind, I believe that most importantly the health of the mother matters overall.
@syneblue:
Not that I don't doubt you, would you mind citing some sources for me (my connection at the moment is pretty bad). I'd especially appreciate any that give age information as well.
Also I want ao add a disclaimier to my earlier point about the state of modern day medication, I'm applying this only for first world countires that actually have good practices and standards.
06/19/09
Screw you, I'm no one's vessel.
06/19/09
And frankly if you're forcing her to be an incubator in this twisted little scenario, more than not making her pay, you should really compensate her. For the lost earnings, the physical pain, and the general inconvenience.
06/19/09
And really, it still boils down to obligating and/or forcing someone to go through pregnancy and delivery. I just can't get behind that.
If you're that emphatically anti-abortion I really think you should be having other conversations before you even engage in sex.
06/19/09
If they wanted a kid, they'd go out and find a woman who wants one too. Not me.
06/19/09
I'll be away for a while, I'll come back and join the discussion again later this evening.
06/19/09
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A woman gets pregnant and the man wants nothing do with the child. They used protection and she was on the pill. He does not and has never wanted to be a father. She decides to have the child anyway. So, does the guy have the choice to opt out of fatherhood or is he to be forced into being a father just because she decided to keep it.
I don't know but I would hate it if someone decided to strap me with a child that I did not want. Also, I described a situation that happened to my brother. Fortunately, he found a way out of it (she had a miscarriage).
06/19/09
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06/19/09
I don't think we can make reproduction fair. If a man knows he never, ever wants a child and he would hate being, he can get a vasectomy. Its not a perfect solution, but its a better one than forcing a woman to get an abortion or making the state pick up the tab for his offspring.
06/19/09
06/19/09
06/19/09
Bottom line is that you choose who you have sex with, and its important to know where that person stands when it comes to unexpected pregnancy. Sometimes tough things happen in life even though you take every precaution to prevent them. Often huge responsibilities are placed on our shoulders despite our best efforts. Most importantly we certainly cannot allow a woman or child's rights to be infringed upon because we don't want those responsibilities.
06/19/09
06/19/09
I think that for women (recipients), this would be a plus, because I believe it would reduce dead-beat dads to a degree, due to basic affordability, and a stricter delineation of the purpose of these payments. The child gets the priority and there's less motivation to constantly "twist the knife" financially by the adults. If the alimony is your sole source of income, it's still YOUR income. If it puts you in a higher tax bracket, do you really need the alimony?
@JerseyGrrrl: He sounds like a very responsible fellow. People forget that abstinence is the most responsible and healthy thing to do. Unfortunately, any degree of responsibility is difficult to instill in men or women. So, condoms it is!
06/19/09
06/19/09
If a couple is using condoms and birth control, then they've likely had a conversation about what they'll do in case of unplanned pregnancy.
Some women are just fine with raising a child on their own if they don't want to keep ties to the biological father. No money involved.
If guys are so freaking terrified of women stealing their sperm, why are so many of them eager to have sex without a condom?
It's so odd to hear this sort of thing when pharmacists can still refuse to hand out birth control for religious reasons and abortion clinics are nonexistent in many cities. I hope all the men fighting to opt out are just as eager in making sure women have access to every option possible - including maternity leave, health care and child care.
Someone is going to end up paying for children. And unless these same men (and women) who've procreated spearhead a massive socialist overhaul of the system, it's going to be them.
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06/20/09
@moonybattyjuicey: I assume you'd say the same thing to women seeking abortions, right? If you don't want kids, don't have sex with somebody who can get you pregnant. Women have the choice, except in instances of rape, to not have penises stuck in their vaginas.
Fuck double standards.
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