First of all, von Trier is a prankster. You can't take anything he says too seriously. Second of all, trust the tale, not the teller. Third of all, I liked Antichrist (although it's not his best), and I don't think you can dismiss his films with allegations of sexism - I think he examines and analyses sexism in his films, but doesn't perpetrate it.
As an unapologetic admirer of Von Trier's work, I believe what he's been trying to do with his Female Martyrs trilogy (Breaking the Waves, Dancer in the Dark and Dogville)--and now with Antichrist--is much more interesting and complicated than being a misogynist.
His female protagonists are complex and multi-layered, and I always got the sense that his loyalty lies with them, not with the men who surrounded them. It's a bit counterintuitive and I won't get too film theory-geeky about it, but I find Ms. Gainsbourg read on it correct.
However, I will say this much: There's this book of interviews called "Trier on Von Trier," in which he talks at length about each movie he made, his upbringing, philosophy, etc. There is a riveting chapter describing his relationship with his mother. She was apparently a very dominating presence and he says he felt very stifled by her personality and her ideas. When his mother passed away (not before letting him know, on the death bed, that "Oh, by the way, your dad was not your ACTUAL dad. It was some other guy!"), he moved back into her house--the house where he grew up in.
And the first thing he did was grab a vase that had been his mother's favorite keepsake and smashed it to bits. He said in the book, "It felt really good when I did that." It gave me chills to read about this episode--but I think I understand the emotion.
@esshud: But remember that amazing final shot--after we learn that Emily (Bette? Bess? What the heck was her character's name?!) died and the evil churchy villagers decide that she can't be granted a proper Christian burial because she had prostituted herself? They all step out of the church and the sunny skies explode with the peals of a thousand church bells. That shot tied the whole film together for me--Bess was an angel who suffered on earth at the hands of flawed humans, and now she's gone back to heaven. I thought it was such a gorgeous and moving conclusion.
And yeah, "The Kingdom" is a complete fucking masterpiece. Stephen King is such a fan that he tried to remake it as TV series in the US--it bombed, I think.
I saw this fully prepared to tear it apart afterward, but when I sat and thought about it for a few hours (and had some long conversations with others who had seen it), I realized the clearest interpretation of the film I could come up with was a very feminist one. I'm so bummed I missed the peak of this post, because I'd be happy to argue it. I haven't seen any of Von Trier's other movies, so I can't really see it as part of his whole body of work. I wouldn't say I enjoyed watching it, but it was beautiful to look at and, again, I think very open to reading all kinds of lovely feminist things in it. The explanation from the Times above is very simplistic and even bordering on inaccurate. And that's as coherent as I get at the end of the day.
@SylvanSylph: Thank you. This post struck me as remarkably dismissive, especially from someone who hasn't seen the film. The review sounds completely different from what I've read elsewhere. I remember reading Ebert's blog posts about it, and coming away with the conclusion that while the film may have a dark view of humanity in general, it isn't especially misogynistic, nor is its hatred targeted at the women especially. It sounds like something that, disturbing as it is, is genuinely thought-provoking and worthwhile, and has some deeper meaning. It isn't just torture porn.
I hate horror films. I think they are bullshit pieces of junk made by the privleged upper class of the world. If these people are so obsessed with violence why don't they go to Darfur or volunteer with an anti-trafficking organization?
Plus, seriously, I think ANYONE could make a horror film. It takes NO creativity. I bet each of us could come up with some really awful scenarios right now... make a film out of it... and then some son of a bitch would beat is meat to it and think it was some profound artsy thing when it is really just pornography.
Violence is fine if it has a point (Hotel Rwanda, Schindler's List, etc), but violence to make us 'feel' is wrong.
He abstracts violence into little fairy tales about women with disorders bordering on developmental problems. I feel like putting each and everyone of his female protagonists under specialist care. Watching their struggles, I feel like I'm witnessing violence and sexual abuse of minors -- the women don't seem mentally mature for their bodies (the plots don't seem mentally mature for presentation).
In that way, I feel, von Trier belittles actual violence and suggests that there is something underneath it that is more worthy of the viewer's attention. "Evil itself"?
Well, he loses me when I feel that the acts of violence are being discarded for the benefit of a murky and shallow "symbolic core." It misses the point every time.
And his key scene is Dancer in the Dark is snatched from Kieslowski's A Short Film about Killing. Only Kieslowski's movie doesn't distort the execution into caricature.
@Misiula:
I find this director pretentious & always trying too hard. "Ooh next up, I'll bring Home Depot into the boudoir, make the audience sick & call it deep"
Everytime I see Charlotte Gainsbourg I think it's Patti Smith w/ an English accent. I kept waiting for her to belt out "Because the Night" in this trailer but no dice.
Yeah, the female symbol on "anti-christ" at the end of the trailer put me off from wanting to ever see this movie. Also, I'm afraid of William Dafoe's ass...
No one likes seeing ladies suffer quite like Von Trier does. I'm not sure who his audience is, exactly, as I'm pressed to imagine who would find his films enjoyable or enlightening. I'm not sure he really cares,since he shows such contempt for whoever may be watching. I look forward to Antichrist flopping as hard as most of his other works have.
@Hooplehead: Maybe he shows female struggles and suffering to underline that kind of thing? The pressures society puts on women and what it can drive them to, the expectations that society has of women to, in fact, sacrifice themselves for everyone around them. It doesn't mean he agrees with it.
@FashionIntel: It always does look beautiful - it really is too bad he's such a sick twisted puppy. I saw three of his that disturbed me to no end - Dancer in the Dark, the one about the "working girl" and then the Nicole Kidman vehicle - the latter was the one that decided it - never going to be sucked in again.
@sybann: I'm actually intrigued by Von Trier's work and eagerly await his projects. Violence and pornography combined in an art house film always pulls me in.
Catherine Breillat does it best as an existential feminist film maker. She's my favorite of all time. She's in a league of her own. Brilliant!
It's interesting also to note, that it isn't so much a Mysoginistic film (it is that in a way, but it toes a line) but it is also a film that is Against Relationships, and surprisingly enough against men. And male made fields of psychology. Both individuals are violent.
The Male - the therapist - is passive aggressive and forces his thoughts and ideas on SHE. HE, further uses mental violence on SHE. And SHE, with the chaos of the forest and her own mind, go after HE with physical violence to counteract HE's mental.
It's a woman who is grieving. Isn't allowed to grieve. Works in a field about the history of Female Gynocide (I can't remember the word, if it's not that). And her husband, HE, is at the center of it. It's just a touch empowering within the whole morass of misgony that she goes after the passive aggressive asshole. Because he stole her right to grieve her own way.
Interesting that he seems to think misogyny is less offensive if it makes the bearer look stupid.
Or is that it's ok as long as it's funny? Domestic violence is the new pie in the face.
09/15/09
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09/15/09
His female protagonists are complex and multi-layered, and I always got the sense that his loyalty lies with them, not with the men who surrounded them. It's a bit counterintuitive and I won't get too film theory-geeky about it, but I find Ms. Gainsbourg read on it correct.
However, I will say this much: There's this book of interviews called "Trier on Von Trier," in which he talks at length about each movie he made, his upbringing, philosophy, etc. There is a riveting chapter describing his relationship with his mother. She was apparently a very dominating presence and he says he felt very stifled by her personality and her ideas. When his mother passed away (not before letting him know, on the death bed, that "Oh, by the way, your dad was not your ACTUAL dad. It was some other guy!"), he moved back into her house--the house where he grew up in.
And the first thing he did was grab a vase that had been his mother's favorite keepsake and smashed it to bits. He said in the book, "It felt really good when I did that." It gave me chills to read about this episode--but I think I understand the emotion.
09/15/09
Which is a shame because The Kingdom is some of the best and freakiest (in a good way) TV I have ever seen!!
09/15/09
And yeah, "The Kingdom" is a complete fucking masterpiece. Stephen King is such a fan that he tried to remake it as TV series in the US--it bombed, I think.
09/17/09
Stephen King remade the Kingdom - oh good lord. Was it terrible?
09/14/09
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Plus, seriously, I think ANYONE could make a horror film. It takes NO creativity. I bet each of us could come up with some really awful scenarios right now... make a film out of it... and then some son of a bitch would beat is meat to it and think it was some profound artsy thing when it is really just pornography.
Violence is fine if it has a point (Hotel Rwanda, Schindler's List, etc), but violence to make us 'feel' is wrong.
09/15/09
09/14/09
Somewhere over the rainbow ~ There's another rainbow ~
09/14/09
09/15/09
09/14/09
He abstracts violence into little fairy tales about women with disorders bordering on developmental problems. I feel like putting each and everyone of his female protagonists under specialist care. Watching their struggles, I feel like I'm witnessing violence and sexual abuse of minors -- the women don't seem mentally mature for their bodies (the plots don't seem mentally mature for presentation).
In that way, I feel, von Trier belittles actual violence and suggests that there is something underneath it that is more worthy of the viewer's attention. "Evil itself"?
Well, he loses me when I feel that the acts of violence are being discarded for the benefit of a murky and shallow "symbolic core." It misses the point every time.
And his key scene is Dancer in the Dark is snatched from Kieslowski's A Short Film about Killing. Only Kieslowski's movie doesn't distort the execution into caricature.
09/14/09
I find this director pretentious & always trying too hard. "Ooh next up, I'll bring Home Depot into the boudoir, make the audience sick & call it deep"
Everytime I see Charlotte Gainsbourg I think it's Patti Smith w/ an English accent. I kept waiting for her to belt out "Because the Night" in this trailer but no dice.
09/14/09
09/14/09
Dammit.
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09/14/09
Catherine Breillat does it best as an existential feminist film maker. She's my favorite of all time. She's in a league of her own. Brilliant!
09/14/09
The Male - the therapist - is passive aggressive and forces his thoughts and ideas on SHE. HE, further uses mental violence on SHE. And SHE, with the chaos of the forest and her own mind, go after HE with physical violence to counteract HE's mental.
It's a woman who is grieving. Isn't allowed to grieve. Works in a field about the history of Female Gynocide (I can't remember the word, if it's not that). And her husband, HE, is at the center of it. It's just a touch empowering within the whole morass of misgony that she goes after the passive aggressive asshole. Because he stole her right to grieve her own way.
09/14/09
Yeah, thanks. Thanks a lot. I feel so very respected.
09/14/09
Or is that it's ok as long as it's funny? Domestic violence is the new pie in the face.