I have this argument with my roommate all the time.
He reads superhero comics (side note: I dislike Uncanny X-Men and was so disappointed in the lack of race, gender ANYTHING nuances. I had heard so many good things about X-Men and it just didn't stack up). I get annoyed with people who draw all the women with the same bodies. Granted, they draw men all the same, too. But this is what's frustrating! People look different! Give them different proportions and faces!
He argues that it's an escape fantasy, and that people want to read about what are essentially wet dreams about what they wish they were - beautiful, strong, superpowered, adventurous, whathaveyou people. I think that's bull. I want to play lots of different people when I game. I always choose a race other than human (or its equivalent), because I find that more fun. I make characters that I wouldn't really ever want to be, but I want to explore what it might be like to be a princess, or an assassin, or have giant-ass horns. He always picks someone who is more or less him.
I don't want a fantasy world full of idealized characters. I want flaws, I want scars and missing limbs, different races, different genders, sexualities, abilities and all of that. It's so much more of an escape fantasy that way, I feel. I don't want to be me, I want to be someone else, to try to figure out what that might be like. I'm wrong, of course, but it helps me relate to people better. I remember playing a deaf woman, and how challenging it was to know that she couldn't hear anything (it was D&D and she was a bard. That was a roleplaying challenge). It made me think about my own abilities, my own prejudices, and my privilege to be able to hear in a way that I probably never would have experienced in any other way. Do I know what it's like to be deaf? Of course not. But it made me think more about what life would be like and made me a little more sympathetic to my own privilege.
I don't think this is necessarily a dangerous thing, but I think it's like erosion. A little is not that big of a deal. But over time, it starts to matter. We start to see this as "normal" - I know too many people who already do. They see this as what men/women should strive to be, and those who don't are strange and uneducated. This is the picture of health and beauty, and they won't settle for less. Sometimes for themselves, but most often for partners. I don't think video games will like, bring down society or anything, but I think it can exacerbate problems that already exist. It doesn't happen overnight, but over years and years of escaping into this fantasy, so many of my friends seem to have trouble breaking out of it. #videogames
@boxspelunker: Yeah, I also disagree with him. People like to identify with characters, but what they want most of all are good stories.
Tell him to read Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol. The three main characters are a woman with multiple personalities, a man who had his brain put in a metal body, and a male/female amalgamation. #videogames
@TheUptightMidwesterner: They want to make the panda people a race! But in China, you can't show a panda getting hurt or dying. That's why it's the $10 non-combat pet - they never die.
Blame China! I would be a panda person too! #videogames
My mom’s gotten really into Facebook (weird – I know), but she likes the games on there, farmingtown or whatever the kids are playing these days. But recently she tried out this Sims-like game, and she just used a standard avatar, which was of course ‘sexy’ – halter, mini, whatever. And some guy started hitting on her avatar. My mom, being a married mother of 7 who hasn’t flirted in over 30 years, just shot him down and walked into her pretend apartment. Somehow – I’m not sure how these games work – he forced his way behind her and followed her in and stood in her room asking her to have sex (?!). Anyway, she logged off and reported him (what a creep), and then went to make her avatar as dowdy as possible.
My point, I guess, is that people already feel like they have permission to be total tools when they’re online, and I think the hypersexualization of female avatars exacerbates that. That dick would have been unlikely to treat my mom like that in real life. These creations don’t look like women, who should be respected, they look like blow-up dolls, which exist purely for the gratification of men. So the men who are already douchebags are even more likely to objectify and mistreat the female avatars. #videogames
@sympathyforthebasementcat: "These creations don’t look like women, who should be respected, they look like blow-up dolls, which exist purely for the gratification of men."
I take issue with the idea that they do not look like women "who should be respected."
All women, even those who "look like blow-up dolls" and are dressed in a sexual manner, deserve respect. Those creations may not look like the majority of women, and their body types should not be the only ones to represent women as a whole, but women who look or dress like them still deserve respect.
@Commentista: I think the point was that women, regardless of what they look like, should be respected, but plastic blowup dolls, who have giant heads, eyes, and perma pouty lips are not women. The comma matters. #videogames
@InABook: Thanks for clarifying my point. That's exactly what I meant. The commas were important. Obviously, women, and human beings in general, should be respected, regardless of what they're wearing or look like. #videogames
@Zombie Ms. Skittles: I'm so glad you made me remember Sims! I'm feeling a little down. Maybe the best way to cope is to get a male werewolf pregnant with alien babies, stat. #videogames
@LovelyHue: I just rediscovered the game! I am running a Legacy family and man o man, nothing makes life feel more manageable than being the petty, vindictive god of my own little world. Someone got disinherited for not doing her homework as a child and almost getting the social worker to come steal away all my babies. #videogames
@Zombie Ms. Skittles: I used to scoff at people who get sucked into gaming for hours. Get a life! Read a book! Then I went home last year for the holiday break and became completely obsessed with SimAnimals, staying up way too late to tend "my" forest, and it still bothers me that I could never figure out how to make the beavers happy. #videogames
@Zombie Ms. Skittles: I used to be somewhat amused by my inability to intentionally construct an unattractive -- not just unconventially attractive -- Sim. I even made several attempts to construct a scaled down representation of the world, with all of its groups included... except everyone had the faces of supermodels. And pretty much everyone was making out. :) If only I had the CPU stats to get Sims3, and the accompanying assload of user-created objects and hacks... I'd probably end up like Cartman in that WOW episode. #videogames
@Zombie Ms. Skittles: I definitely downloaded a more awesome set of defaults... as well as every other thing.
I stopped playing much because well.. I do have other things to do... and also, the amazing sculpture-like hairstyles with realistic movements were ruining my graphics card... #videogames
@Zombie Ms. Skittles: I did replace them, and it was great. I think it was at MTS2 and the Pirate Forum (no piracy involved in this particular situation) the woman "traced" the default faces back to their intended ethnicities, looked for photo examples of each phenotype and incorporated it into the redo.
@Raised-byHeathens: I don't always agree with the gender politics in the plotline, but it's a decent story, given that it's told in 8 minute increments. #videogames
Also, how much of a disaster is it for a declining population? A lowered GDP is bad, okay, but if the population is declining, doesn't that mean that the per capita domestic product is actually higher? #capcom
@braak: Yes but that higher GDP per capita is an artifact of the decline in population. The GDP itself has not grown(stagnation) and may actually be declining(deflation).
Also, declining population translates to increased burden on individuals (due to a decreasing tax base). #capcom
@Cynicalbard: But it also translates to a higher share of the GDP per individual. I mean, I'm not concerned why it's happening. Does it matter what the country's gross product is, or does it matter how much money there is per person? Yes, the tax burden increases, but if the relative share of the GDP increases, it doesn't necessarily matter because it's a proportional change.
@arginusae: That's a good point, and a problem that we're likely to run into here, too; I suppose there are valid reasons to be concerned about a declining population (and a higher proportion of older citizenry), I'm just suspicious of arguments that present a declining population--or even a drop in GDP, as implicitly bad. #capcom
Japan has...well, okay, I don't know really about Japan, this is just something I remember from English class, so don't take me too seriously...Japan also has a cultural "re-enchanment" issue going on. Unlike a lot of Western cultures, Japan's past and present are so sharply contrasted, and its samurai history so strongly fetishized, that there ends up being a strong cultural movement to re-capture that stuff. #capcom
Just so we're clear, the whole 'grass eating men' thing in Japan is basically media bullshit hype along the lines of the NYT trend pieces we've all grown to love. I've lived in Japan, I live in Asia currently, I've got plenty of contacts in Japan, and the uniform reaction is amusement that this fake trend (fauxnomenon?) is getting serious play in the West.
There are broader trends in Japanese society toward a more suitable work/life balance for men, but it's not some big trend-piece movement. #capcom
@CrapCommentFromADude: I didn't want to comment on this thread precisely because I'm always wary of these articles that claim to identify significant societal tendencies in a foreign country. I grew up in West Africa, I live in France, and I cringe every time I read these generally very reductive articles about, I don't know, aid in Africa, or immigration in France, or the hijab issue and its conflict with the way we see and live secularism here, because they show a stunning ignorance of the general context of the society they're speaking of. (It's sometimes deliberate, because the articles are generally fairly short and it would take too much time to explain the complexities inherent in the way such things play in France, or Senegal, or in this case, Japan.)
So when I read this, despite the fact that I've never been to Japan (and in large part because I've never been), I decided to take it with a huge spoonful of salt. #capcom
Since we're both in greyed-out comment land and hopefully it's not too much of a comment thread derail, could I trouble you for your quick two cents on the hijab issue?
My basic, only-quasi-informed take on the matter is that there's often a higher degree of support for a ban among immigrant women from the cultures that push the range of coverings than Western feminists would expect, because having the 'free choice' in practice too often means 'the choice of the brothers and fathers' who enforce a certain standard at the micro level.
Am I completely off base? I'd love to be filled in by someone with more perspective. #capcom
So all these women get are guys who don't care about fast cars or objectifying women and instead treat them like friends, friends they might like to shop with at boutiques before having a nice bit of cake? Oh the poor darlings! #capcom
@Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!: I wonder if there'll be any sort of marriage-of-convenience trend, where the herbivore men and their cake-eating galpals end up forming families? Because if anything can make the impossible seem probable, that thing is cake. #capcom
actually, it's funny that this article is posted.
i haven't played this game, but am intrigued by it.
one of the dramas of the season i am watching is called Samurai Highschool.
it stars a popular young actor who is a herbivore type, but transforms into an ancient samurai when in danger.
so, yes, i would say this is definitely a trend. (and i enjoy it)
interestingly enough, japanese female fashion is changing from a cuter pastel style to a more rock'n'roll aesthetic. #capcom
Re: "meat as a stand-in for manliness"
I read about these guys before in a CNN.com article. The Japanese woman (!) who coined the term said, "In Japan, sex is translated as 'relationship in flesh,' so I named those boys 'herbivorous boys' since they are not interested in flesh." #capcom
@MondayMorningGlow: Most people say "sexxu o suru" which is "to do sex". I have never heard of another term. I'm sure there is one, since "sex" is taken from English, but it seems that no one uses any other term.
@boxspelunker: She's referring to the term "nikutai kankei" which literally means "relationship in/of the flesh," which I'm assuming is a more literary/scholarly term than a colloquial loan-word expression. The term used to refer to the body in Japanese uses the same character and pronunciation as that of "meat." (and to nitpick, the romanization you're looking for is "sekkusu")
See also: nikutai literature, or "carnal literature"/"literature of the flesh" in the immediate postwar period, stories of very, erm, physical and sexual experiences after living under censors and sensory deprivation during the war years. #capcom
I remember asking my friends about it - as I said in my first comment, because "sekkusu" (duh, self) is obviously an English-based loanword, but none of them knew anything. They just shrugged and said, "It's always 'sekkusu'."
And narf, yes, you are totally right on the spelling. A+, self, for spelling with letters that don't exist! :D #capcom
*sigh*
With this, I also see Japanese culture succeeding near as spectacularly as Americans -- both South and North -- at that other widespread and transnational game, "Blame the Women".
@Rooo sez BISH PLZ: I think in this case it's a game of "Blame the Young". The young men have are being criticized for not being manly enough. They're being told the Japanese equivalent of "Sack Up".
Um no. I like this game and various incarnations because of the gameplay, artwork (check out the detail in the character's costumes), characters and humour.
I do admit samurais are cool - real life ones, historically. But as hotties? No.
I don't think many women actually admire or fantasize about historically inaccurate video game characters. Have you actually seen what Sanada Yukimura or Date Masumane actually look like in real life?
11/06/09
He reads superhero comics (side note: I dislike Uncanny X-Men and was so disappointed in the lack of race, gender ANYTHING nuances. I had heard so many good things about X-Men and it just didn't stack up). I get annoyed with people who draw all the women with the same bodies. Granted, they draw men all the same, too. But this is what's frustrating! People look different! Give them different proportions and faces!
He argues that it's an escape fantasy, and that people want to read about what are essentially wet dreams about what they wish they were - beautiful, strong, superpowered, adventurous, whathaveyou people. I think that's bull. I want to play lots of different people when I game. I always choose a race other than human (or its equivalent), because I find that more fun. I make characters that I wouldn't really ever want to be, but I want to explore what it might be like to be a princess, or an assassin, or have giant-ass horns. He always picks someone who is more or less him.
I don't want a fantasy world full of idealized characters. I want flaws, I want scars and missing limbs, different races, different genders, sexualities, abilities and all of that. It's so much more of an escape fantasy that way, I feel. I don't want to be me, I want to be someone else, to try to figure out what that might be like. I'm wrong, of course, but it helps me relate to people better. I remember playing a deaf woman, and how challenging it was to know that she couldn't hear anything (it was D&D and she was a bard. That was a roleplaying challenge). It made me think about my own abilities, my own prejudices, and my privilege to be able to hear in a way that I probably never would have experienced in any other way. Do I know what it's like to be deaf? Of course not. But it made me think more about what life would be like and made me a little more sympathetic to my own privilege.
I don't think this is necessarily a dangerous thing, but I think it's like erosion. A little is not that big of a deal. But over time, it starts to matter. We start to see this as "normal" - I know too many people who already do. They see this as what men/women should strive to be, and those who don't are strange and uneducated. This is the picture of health and beauty, and they won't settle for less. Sometimes for themselves, but most often for partners. I don't think video games will like, bring down society or anything, but I think it can exacerbate problems that already exist. It doesn't happen overnight, but over years and years of escaping into this fantasy, so many of my friends seem to have trouble breaking out of it. #videogames
11/06/09
Tell him to read Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol. The three main characters are a woman with multiple personalities, a man who had his brain put in a metal body, and a male/female amalgamation. #videogames
11/06/09
I just really want to be a Panda. #videogames
11/06/09
11/06/09
Blame China! I would be a panda person too! #videogames
11/07/09
11/06/09
My point, I guess, is that people already feel like they have permission to be total tools when they’re online, and I think the hypersexualization of female avatars exacerbates that. That dick would have been unlikely to treat my mom like that in real life. These creations don’t look like women, who should be respected, they look like blow-up dolls, which exist purely for the gratification of men. So the men who are already douchebags are even more likely to objectify and mistreat the female avatars. #videogames
11/06/09
I take issue with the idea that they do not look like women "who should be respected."
All women, even those who "look like blow-up dolls" and are dressed in a sexual manner, deserve respect. Those creations may not look like the majority of women, and their body types should not be the only ones to represent women as a whole, but women who look or dress like them still deserve respect.
11/06/09
11/06/09
11/06/09
That said, most of my Sims are incredibly pretty. #videogames
11/06/09
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11/06/09
I stopped playing much because well.. I do have other things to do... and also, the amazing sculpture-like hairstyles with realistic movements were ruining my graphics card... #videogames
11/06/09
I too am incapable of making a truly ugly Sim. Even the one I made to be the "village idiot" is kind of handsome. #videogames
11/06/09
@purpleshoes reminds everyone to take typing breaks and stretch, ow: OMG, if you have Sims 2, at Mod the Sims 2, they have a ton of ethnic garb from all over, including salwaar khameezes. I even had 3 burkhas from Sims Resource. Damn, I miss that game. #videogames
11/06/09
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11/03/09
11/03/09
Also, declining population translates to increased burden on individuals (due to a decreasing tax base). #capcom
11/03/09
@arginusae: That's a good point, and a problem that we're likely to run into here, too; I suppose there are valid reasons to be concerned about a declining population (and a higher proportion of older citizenry), I'm just suspicious of arguments that present a declining population--or even a drop in GDP, as implicitly bad. #capcom
11/03/09
11/03/09
There are broader trends in Japanese society toward a more suitable work/life balance for men, but it's not some big trend-piece movement. #capcom
11/03/09
So when I read this, despite the fact that I've never been to Japan (and in large part because I've never been), I decided to take it with a huge spoonful of salt. #capcom
11/03/09
Since we're both in greyed-out comment land and hopefully it's not too much of a comment thread derail, could I trouble you for your quick two cents on the hijab issue?
My basic, only-quasi-informed take on the matter is that there's often a higher degree of support for a ban among immigrant women from the cultures that push the range of coverings than Western feminists would expect, because having the 'free choice' in practice too often means 'the choice of the brothers and fathers' who enforce a certain standard at the micro level.
Am I completely off base? I'd love to be filled in by someone with more perspective. #capcom
11/02/09
And I love me some quality yaoi.
11/02/09
11/02/09
11/02/09
i haven't played this game, but am intrigued by it.
one of the dramas of the season i am watching is called Samurai Highschool.
it stars a popular young actor who is a herbivore type, but transforms into an ancient samurai when in danger.
so, yes, i would say this is definitely a trend. (and i enjoy it)
interestingly enough, japanese female fashion is changing from a cuter pastel style to a more rock'n'roll aesthetic. #capcom
11/03/09
11/02/09
I read about these guys before in a CNN.com article. The Japanese woman (!) who coined the term said, "In Japan, sex is translated as 'relationship in flesh,' so I named those boys 'herbivorous boys' since they are not interested in flesh." #capcom
11/02/09
Did she happen to say what it was? #capcom
11/02/09
See also: nikutai literature, or "carnal literature"/"literature of the flesh" in the immediate postwar period, stories of very, erm, physical and sexual experiences after living under censors and sensory deprivation during the war years. #capcom
11/03/09
I remember asking my friends about it - as I said in my first comment, because "sekkusu" (duh, self) is obviously an English-based loanword, but none of them knew anything. They just shrugged and said, "It's always 'sekkusu'."
And narf, yes, you are totally right on the spelling. A+, self, for spelling with letters that don't exist! :D #capcom
11/02/09
With this, I also see Japanese culture succeeding near as spectacularly as Americans -- both South and North -- at that other widespread and transnational game, "Blame the Women".
11/02/09
11/02/09
I do admit samurais are cool - real life ones, historically. But as hotties? No.
I don't think many women actually admire or fantasize about historically inaccurate video game characters. Have you actually seen what Sanada Yukimura or Date Masumane actually look like in real life?
11/02/09