Etiquette - Jezebel

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A Girl's Guide To Respectful Girlwatching
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Highsmith
09/24/09

In reply to A Girl's Guide To Respectful Girlwatching
I've often wondered if women who do that shameless & oh so obvious UP AND DOWN JUDGMENTAL LOOK (yeah, THAT one) when you walk into an elevator or into a store are either insane or retarded because I simply can't think of another reason why an adult woman would do that. I find it so offensive & rude that I've decided to call them on it. So watch it, beyatches!
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LawFairy
09/24/09

In reply to A Girl's Guide To Respectful Girlwatching
I think the problem is if it's specifically GIRL-watching versus people-watching. I have no problem with appreciating beauty/looking at people in a curious but respectful way/etc. But I HATE when people talk about how curves are beautiful etc. like there's some magical mystical special thing about "the female form." First off, for one thing, PLENTY of women don't have curves and don't have a traditional "female form," so talking about the female form can itself be used as a means of making women feel bad about themselves, even if it isn't meant to, and even if it's clear that you mean "oh, women of any shape or size" (in which case, why aren't we just talking about the HUMAN form -- since some men have more stereotypically feminine looking bodies than some women). For another, it is objectification, pure and simple, if the looking is only done AT one sex. Even if women do the looking, even if it is completely asexual, if women are looked AT but men aren't, then it's sexist. Period.
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Pantra
09/24/09

In reply to A Girl's Guide To Respectful Girlwatching
I feel bad saying this, but I actually am less bothered by men looking - even leering - than women. The reason being, that I never feel women are "admiring" me - it usually seems like a blunt assessment where they look at my face, then my boobs, then my stomach, legs, back up to the face; they're sizing me up. It's a very uncomfortable feeling. Especially when I see outright hostility in a woman's eyes. My girlfriend and I noticed that we actually got checked out by more women at a straight bar than our local girl bar, but the look in the eyes was very different, of course.

I experienced both early this week at a doctor appt - the snotty receptionist looked me up and down in my jeans and t-shirt and undone hair with a disdainful expression, and then the doctor gawked openly at my chest during the appt. They were both expressions of entitlement in the end, her to judge my looks and him to enjoy my body. While I didn't appreciate either, I didn't feel his came from a malicious place so it bothered me less.
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Valkyrie607
09/24/09

In reply to A Girl's Guide To Respectful Girlwatching
"Sometimes there are days (granted, usually when I'm in an emotional frame of mind) where everyone is so stunning and in such wholly different ways that I get tears in my eyes. (These tend to be the same days the bounty of produce at the greenmarket makes me sob.)"

GASP!

I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE!!

*stops reading, sobs happily*
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CliveProtesilaus
09/24/09

In reply to A Girl's Guide To Respectful Girlwatching
seriously, this is why I love fall. I can wear a big coat and people can't stare at my boobs. This is just ridiculous. Leave me alone. People can tell that you're "respectfully" watching them, and it gets pathetically old. Them staring, the grabbing, the weird following: they're all part of the same syndrome of objectification and dehumanization, ultimately. And besides that, can the women you're looking at tell that you're being friendly? Probably not. All they can tell is that you're staring at them.
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Agumen
09/24/09

In reply to A Girl's Guide To Respectful Girlwatching
As a man, I find this article so, so confusing. It's not a criticism of the author, because I believe it's a well-written and blatantly honest article. And anything honest is ok with me.

But as a guy, it makes me so unsure what unacceptable looking is, why looking is unacceptable, why there's a double standard between genders being allowed to scope other people's bodies etc.

Is it because of the whole 'raping with your eyes' thing? That you believe that men do do it and women don't? Is it that you think men look out of desire to put a woman in her place, as opposed to her beauty catching his eye reflexively?

You say that Bayley is paternalistic, but then you agree with him, and list off all the reasons looking at women is so great! Then you actually say it would be harder to resist with a sexual imperative, so you obviously know exactly how men feel! How can we be criticised for peeking every now and then! My mind boggles.

And yes, I am one of the intense eye-contact people. I break out in a cold sweat while thinking of the breasts just below my eyeline. I reckon my pupils must be shaking like a newly-rung bell.
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ZemarSea Urchin
09/24/09

@Agumen: Maybe the article bears reading again and perhaps a little slower. Women don't look at women with intent. The issue of breasts for example which you seem unseemingly interested in (last paragraph of your comment). Women look at other womens boobs in a "she has great boobs, wow I wish mine were that perky, and that sweater is so nice on her. Its because she has a great chest and such a flat belly, etc." Men look at the same woman and think " I want to touch her in an inappropriate way. Just one touch." Women are hardwired to tell the difference. BTW your last paragraph is totally filed under "I want to touch women inappropriatly"
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clevernamehere
09/24/09

@Agumen: Men looking at women is different than women looking at women. Even if one or both of the women are lesbians, it is just different. Maybe its because women are less blatant, maybe its because there is much less of a threat of sexual violence, maybe its something else. But it is different. I have never been creeped out by a woman looking at my body, even when she was a butch lesbian. The issue is partly gender, but its not sexual desire.

Not every man gets to the creepy level of looking, but I think you are really assuming too much of most men. I've found myself staring at a woman's body for no other reason than it caught my eye and I just look away. I get that I'm not supposed to leer. Guys often behave like they are entitled to look.
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Valkyrie607
09/24/09

@Agumen: The difference between appreciation and posessiveness. That is all.
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Agumen
09/24/09

@Valkyrie607: Don't understand this comment. What is posessiveness? The idea that you can claim ownership of something by looking at it?

As for the other comments, it does seem to be a fear of inappropriate sexual conduct that bothers women. I get that, and I'm cool with it. As I said, I don't leer. But I understand the temptation.
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Edited by Agumen at 09/24/09 5:33 PM Agumen was starred Agumen was unstarred

andBegorrah
09/24/09

@Agumen: Part of the "possessive" aspect has to do with the concept of "The Gaze" (see this, for a cursory introduction: [www.tulane.edu]) and visual harassment. Just about every woman understands that being looked at is aesthetic, natural, whatever, and that's fine; but women are always - are culturally constructed as made to be - looked at. We - our bodies, which we are constantly being reduced to (yes, even after opening our mouths and proving our three-dimensionality) - are public property, are the ever available object of visual consumption, assessment, "appreciation," judgment, and commentary. It's not just the specter of inappropriate sexual conduct, it's that being ogled and leered at is a form of inappropriate sexual conduct; it's sexualizing our bodies without our consent - and the culture tells men not only that that is okay, but that they are entitled to do so.
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Agumen
09/24/09

@andBegorrah: Thank you for enlightening me.
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Highsmith
09/24/09

@Agumen: It just gets old quickly when not one man one day but multitudes of men every single fucking day of your life do that. It's not flattering, it's annoying and often harassing.
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SarahMC
09/25/09

@Agumen: For the record, not all of us are comfortable with other women staring. Because it's not always innocent. A lot of commenters have described other women who will look you up and down with a nasty look in their eyes. I hate that. I know people aren't admiring my "female form" when they stare at me because I don't have the conventionally beautiful female form. I feel violated when men OR women leer at me, though for different reasons.

BUT, I also co-sign what andBegorrah said.
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sybann
09/24/09

In reply to A Girl's Guide To Respectful Girlwatching
One word: SUNGLASSES.

Love people watching - never leer .
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Scoithniamh
09/24/09

In reply to A Girl's Guide To Respectful Girlwatching
I have big boobs. And they're not just big, they're really...jiggly. Like, a lot. If I'm showing any skin below the collarbone, you're watching my boobs jiggle. It can't be helped, and it's not cute. So if people are staring at me when I'm in motion, men or women, I'm about 99% sure that's what they're looking at. I might be projecting, because that's what I'd be looking at- it's moving! Your eyes are drawn to movement! Juggs!

I'm very self-conscious about it.
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lavenderstain
09/24/09

In reply to A Girl's Guide To Respectful Girlwatching
I've been thinking about this alot lately. I'm in my first year of practicing law, and im pretty slender and short.

not many women in my profession look like me, and not many women are in my profession period. (criminal law).

Its a very strange feeling walking into a crowded courtroom, with 90% male lawyers. they ALL stare, from the young to the old, some look at me very paternalistically, and some I can tell are checking me out. its very uncomfortable, and while at first it was amusing its becoming tired and annoying fast....

when I do see the occasional women, I look at them hard, and they look at me hard, but I suspect its for a different reason. I look at them to see what they are wearing, often admiringly, and imagine what I'll look like when im at their age and stage of success... so i guess girl-watching is ok for me...but not for the guys...because really its making me feel uncomfortable and NOT part of the legal community...
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cand86
09/24/09

In reply to A Girl's Guide To Respectful Girlwatching
I have such a hard time reconciling my feminism with my pro-porn celebration of women sometimes . . . and I know that it's about intent and attitude, but it always feels weird to read one blog that cheers a topic and another that heavily criticizes it. And I agree with both.
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youbehim
09/24/09

In reply to A Girl's Guide To Respectful Girlwatching
I don't know which is worse, the men who stare holes into you or the girls who look you up and down then give you dirty looks.
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rednrowdy
09/24/09

@youbehim: answer! the girls AND BOYS who look you up and down then give you dirty looks.
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youbehim
09/24/09

@rednrowdy: the world is cruel!
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Hooplehead
09/24/09

@youbehim: Yes. I disagree entirely that if it's a woman looking at my boobs, it's inherently less creepy. My body is not public property. If you're staring below my neck, you're a creeper, regardless of gender. And if you then give me a dirty look, you're a creeper and an asshole.
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thesciencegirl
09/24/09

In reply to A Girl's Guide To Respectful Girlwatching
I don't mind other women looking at me, and I'm definitely a straight female girlwatcher. One of my favorite activities with my sister is people-watching. We do not body snark. We comment on clothes, lovely and horrid, and when someone is particularly beautiful, confident, has a great figure/hair/smile, we are like,"OMG! She is SO pretty!" We get really excited when we see a particularly cute pregnant lady or beautiful older woman. And we both love complimenting other women.

I definitely stared at another woman this morning. She had such a lovely, curvy figure and really nice breasts, and she was dressed very Mad Men. My thoughts ran from "Wow, she is so pretty" to "If I were that size, my breasts would be smaller, but that's ok" to "That guy with her is totally in love with her." So, while she didn't catch me staring, if she had, she would have seen only good will on my face. lol

With men, it is so much more common for me to receive icky sexual looks and comments. Very rarely, a man gets it right and manages to be complimentary and non-threatening in his glance or his words, and that usually makes me smile or chuckle.
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hamburgerhotdog
09/24/09

In reply to A Girl's Guide To Respectful Girlwatching
I have such a strange, rare body type for NYC (hourglassish veering towards pear shaped) that when I see someone else who is similarly proportioned I can't help but stare at them. It gives me a bit of relief and I like to see how they dress. I seriously creeped a girl out at the gym once on accident but I had literally never once seen anyone who had legs like mine and was totally amazed. I almost wanted to high five her but that would have been pushing it to downright creepy.
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HereComesMyBaby
09/24/09

In reply to A Girl's Guide To Respectful Girlwatching
So the thing is, in Israel EVERYONE stares, sometimes for VERY prolonged periods of time, and it's not considered rude. At first, it creeped me out, but now, I love it! I look up and down every girl whose outfit I like, and I get to stare at hot guys!

Granted, people also stare at my boobs unabashedly, but what can ya do?
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ritualtheory
09/24/09

@HereComesMyBaby: Flash them?

My very generalized experience with Israelis (not Israel, to which I've not been) is that they're much more straightforward in manner than most North Americans, from breast-ogling to casual commentary. It's cheeky for those of us who are unaccustomed, and I kind of like it.
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HereComesMyBaby
09/24/09

@ritualtheory: I don't like the comments, and have been know to just flip guys off on the street when they start talking about HAVING SEX WITH ME, but I do like staring at people!
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lavenderstain
09/24/09

@HereComesMyBaby: same in Iran and Dubai... I think its a cultural thing...
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GirlyQ is a manta ray
09/24/09

In reply to A Girl's Guide To Respectful Girlwatching
If I'm staring, there are three reasons:

1) I find you sexually attractive

2) I think your clothes/ jewelry/ hair are great, and I'm trying to figure out how to make that look work for me. (total femme)

3) You look like someone I know, but I can't quite tell and I'm trying to figure it out before I yell a name that may or may not be yours.

*this has been a girl's guide to GirlyQ's stares*
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