Asian men are portrayed in the US as being asexual, passive, and feminine. Part of the reason that this story is getting airplay here is because of the way US racism produces stereotypes of what Asian men are supposed to be like. So when you have a phenomenon like young men questioning societal expectations of masculinity, which I guarantee is reproducing itself across the spectrum of industrialized nations, it's a sure bet that part of the Japanese story's appeal to US media is because it fits right in with the stereotypes of Asian men that we see reproduced in popular culture here.
It's also part of a bigger US phenomenon of making all things Asian seem odd, mysterious and bizarre. If Korean parents are hard on kids, then they are OMG HARDER ON KIDS THAN ANY AMERICAN PARENT EVER. If young Japanese men are rejecting masculine norms, then OMG THEY ARE ALL WEARING BRAS.
Japan in particular has gotten a lot of this. Japan is seen in the US as this giant national freak show that exists purely for the delectation of US hipsters and anime nerds. I'm tired of it, and I wish Jezebel wouldn't play into it.
"Japan and America should accept a more frugal, perhaps smaller population and new definitions of success."
I'm not saying a disagree with you, but if the birth rate gets even lower that will spell even more problems for social security etc won't it?
Like I said, not saying I disagree with you, it is just a thought I had! The whole system really needs a complete overhaul with new ideas. With huge numbers of older people and fewer and fewer people on the bottom end supporting the system it is really hard to see how it will survive. #girlymen
@applejuice: One thing that's interesting unsaid and makes Japan different from the US is simply space and immigration. The US populati0n can indeed grew even with declining birth rates due to the ability to expand population via immigration. I don't know if Japan could support this. #girlymen
@applejuice: One thing that wasn't mentioned above is that Japan is so anti-immigrant. The low birth rate and replacing older workers wouldn't be quite so dire if they weren't so discriminatory against non-ethnically-Japanese residents. #girlymen
@applejuice: But how is social security a problem of young men -and women- who don't want to raise kids?
I mean, is the meaning of life -for those yet not born human beings- to be born just to support the system?
Isn't it everyone's freedom to choose if they will bring or not bring kids to this world? #girlymen
@not_kinky: I didn't say I agree with the system. In fact I said that the system is unsustainable and there is a need for new ideas. I wasn't proclaiming that peeps should have more kids just to support the olds. geesh.
I think smaller population would likely be a good thing (and it is a choice for individuals to make), just saying that (as with all social changes) it will affect things on many different levels and some things would have to be rethought. It was just a general comment... #girlymen
"I worry that herbivorous boys are the future of Japan. As young Japanese men become more timid and more averse to taking risks, it will affect the energy and vitality of the society."
first i'd argue that what these men are doing is ten times more "risky" than the traditional path expected of most japanese men. this bold self-expression seems the antithesis of timid.
second i'm fascinated with the continuing use of the word "herbivore" to describe "girly" "timid" "feminine" "risk-averse" "non-manly," etc. etc. the mythology of the masculine, meat-eating man versus the "herbivorous, grass-eating girly man" is very patriarchal. #girlymen
@kkatt: In some ways, it would be, but it is more often than not an economic issue - industries shrink, there are fewer young people to support the older population, etc. It's something that very few countries have dealt with as of yet, and is very scary for their futures.
Of course, I have a hard time parsing that out, because I want girly men to be as free as they want to be, and everyone to only have kids if they want to, and the idea otherwise, even to "save" a society, makes me bristle. #girlymen
@not_kinky: Thanks! I took a class in Chinese geography, and this was a big topic we covered - how urban development is affected by a shrinking human resource base. I find it very, very interesting, and applicable to many developed countries, many of whom only have population growth due to immigration. One cannot immigrate to Japan. You can be an expatriate, but as far as I know, there is not a system for naturalizing citizens, so they have a big problem in the future :/
Sorry, I get all excited about this kind of thing. #girlymen
@boxspelunker: Please go on, 'cause I find it interesting as well, and I am totally following your saying on jezebel (I'm not a stalker, promise) #girlymen
@boxspelunker: You're welcome everytime.
P.S.: I envy your yellow star, and by what I've seen, you earned it's five horns, comment by comment.
Congrats! #girlymen
@not_kinky: Wow, that's so nice! I am all blushing and thrilled. I totally called my friend and was like SOMEONE WAS NICE TO ME LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT IT. :D yaaaay I am so flattered! Thank you!
@boxspelunker: Now the one blushig is me! But I can't call my close friends and tell them about it 'cause they are not into sharing opinions in the webs :(
Going back to the post, I remember y commented on how I wanted to know if the picture of the japanese dude dressed as Carrie Bradshaw is the pic of an actual japanese girly dude, because the picture the times online used is the one of a real herbiborous boy, and this one looks a bit costume-y to me. And that would be kind of mean by jezebel. #girlymen
There's a lot of weird identity issues that Japan is going through, on the whole. This is just one of them, and to be honest the most unimportant of the bunch sociologically.
Really, from a culture that had the 'Girly Men' as Kabuki actors? Well this isn't anything new... is it? Let them eat their damn cake.
As young Japanese men become more timid and more averse to taking risks, it will affect the energy and vitality of the society."
Because nothing spells doom for a society like eating cake and embracing traits deemed "feminine." Wah?
I mean, this trend is about guys but the freaking out by journalists and trend watchers weirdly feels like an anti-woman, anti-"feminine" reaction. Considering that many of these guys indeed identify as heterosexual, I don't see why their embracing of femininity would be the root cause of a dwindling population. It's almost like blaming them for not man-ing up and knocking up some woman, demanding she take of her shoes, directing her to the kitchen, putting on a suit, and heading to the office.
I don't see this movement as a root cause of the population decline in Japan so much as it seems to reflect mainstream mores on what we behavior believe heterosexuals should engage in (and by behavior, I mean things completely outside of say, intercourse and being attracted to the opposite sex).
@Trulymadlyme: Just as Madonna says in one of her songs: girls can wear jeans and cut their hair short 'cause it's ok to be a boy, but for a boy to look like a girl is degrading 'cause you think to be a girl is degrading.
Gotta love it! #girlymen
One of the things I've never been able to understand is how cake can be for girls only in Japan. That's come up before on Bento box sites I've been on with no explanation and it still confuses me. LET THEM EAT CAKE! #girlymen
Baking is one thing. Men who can cook are hot. The wearing lacy bras and skirts? Er... personal deal breaker... but as these guys are supposedly not interested in sex, you go... girly.... men?
Is there a large gay population in Japan? I'm curious as to what they would make of this phenomenon. #girlymen
@Adah: There is an average-sized gay population, but being "out" is pretty unacceptable in most places. Some people believe that there are no "real" gay people in Japan, just people playing.
Most of the gay representation comes through media, where they tend to have flamboyant, flamey crossdressers. So, these guys are kinda fitting that mold, except for the wanting to sleep with men stuff. #girlymen
I've never understood why men can't bake. Why is it that men can only do traditionally female actions if they are an expert at it? Some men just want to bake, they don't want to be a pastry chef.
@CurtCole: Amen. My roommate is one of these gem men who realize that when you want fresh out of the oven PB cookies, sometimes you have to make them yourself. #girlymen
@CurtCole: Yes! I consider baking a life skill, not a feminine skill. Like cleaning, or sewing. These are things that functioning adults, regardless of gender, should be able to do at least passably well. #girlymen
@CurtCole: Funny thing is it would make sense for men to bake... I'm totally going into stereotype mode here, but if women are supposed to win over men with steak and potatoes, why shouldn't men win us over with cupcakes? #girlymen
@Kivrin: Maybe it's viewing it through American eyes, but to me being "sensitive" or "feminine" =/= bras. Boobs or a desire to actually be a woman because you are transgender, or cross-dressing on purpose = bras. Not that I care if a man wears a bra, but the idea that because these men don't enjoy traditional masculine pursuits, they all want to run around wearing bras automatically, it makes it sound like a scare piece. #girlymen
@Kivrin: Word. The only reason I wear a bra is cause it hurts not to (hello, large bosoms. please go away). No way would I wear one if I had an A cup. #girlymen
Bras are pretty! My breasts are small enough that they are really more decorative than, like, a necessity, so I think I understand where these guys are coming from. #girlymen
@Kivrin: I have nothing against crossdressers, but when I read about why they want to do it, it makes my skin crawl. Bras are functional. Girls don't want to wear them to feel "feminine", they want to wear them so that they don't swing low, sweet chariots. Girls don't want to be "sissies" or "pretty playthings" or any of the other weird jargon tossed about . It seems to speak to a bizarre distortion of what being female actually means, usually with a sexist bent. It's just very strange. #girlymen
@Ailatan: I loooooooove wearing a bra. Maybe it's because bra-less is insanely uncomfortable once you hit a magic size-age quotient, but there is nothing more awesome than a brand-new, perfect-fitting bra. #girlymen
@Kivrin: When I had an office job where I just sat at a computer for 8 hours, I would slip my bra off everyday when I got to work. I had no interaction with anyone, so I took advantage of how comfortable I could be. It was the worst job ever but my chest could breeeeeeeeeathe
@sumerfish: I have nothing against crossdressers, but when I read about why they want to do it, it makes my skin crawl.
That's mainly your opinion. Many women (and men) enjoy wearing bras despite their "functional" features. I mean, you might hate it, but to each their own. #girlymen
@sumerfish: The jargon sounds pretty typical for people who are sexually submissive. Which may or may not occur in a person who is MTF transgendered or a transvestite.
I think part of wanting to reject traditional masculine roles is rejecting the idea that men have to be the pursuers, have to be sexually dominant, etc. These guys (and others of their ilk) tend to like to be pursued and dominated - some by women, some by men, some like both.
Maybe if we didn't see sexual dominance as masculine, or men wearing women's underwear as humiliating, the picture of their gender would be clearer, but as it is sex and psychology have a lot to do with how we think about gender. #girlymen
@KLondike5: Maybe if we didn't see sexual dominance as masculine, or men wearing women's underwear as humiliating, the picture of their gender would be clearer, but as it is sex and psychology have a lot to do with how we think about gender. #girlymen
Oh, hai. The point. You found it.
It is interesting to see people denigrate femininity vis a vis clothing here.
Oh i'm so sad I missed this! Damn you Monty Python-athon. My dad's entire family made their living in the garmet district in New York. We wouldn't be where we are today without it. I'm sad that it's not providing the same opportunities to achieve the American Dream for today's immigrants anymore. #schmattafromragstorichestorags
If you live in NY, WATCH this. Fantastic history lesson of the area and industry.
The 1911 Shirtwaist fire, and the one in India were unbelievable. #schmattafromragstorichestorags
11/02/09
Asian men are portrayed in the US as being asexual, passive, and feminine. Part of the reason that this story is getting airplay here is because of the way US racism produces stereotypes of what Asian men are supposed to be like. So when you have a phenomenon like young men questioning societal expectations of masculinity, which I guarantee is reproducing itself across the spectrum of industrialized nations, it's a sure bet that part of the Japanese story's appeal to US media is because it fits right in with the stereotypes of Asian men that we see reproduced in popular culture here.
It's also part of a bigger US phenomenon of making all things Asian seem odd, mysterious and bizarre. If Korean parents are hard on kids, then they are OMG HARDER ON KIDS THAN ANY AMERICAN PARENT EVER. If young Japanese men are rejecting masculine norms, then OMG THEY ARE ALL WEARING BRAS.
Japan in particular has gotten a lot of this. Japan is seen in the US as this giant national freak show that exists purely for the delectation of US hipsters and anime nerds. I'm tired of it, and I wish Jezebel wouldn't play into it.
11/02/09
I'm not saying a disagree with you, but if the birth rate gets even lower that will spell even more problems for social security etc won't it?
Like I said, not saying I disagree with you, it is just a thought I had! The whole system really needs a complete overhaul with new ideas. With huge numbers of older people and fewer and fewer people on the bottom end supporting the system it is really hard to see how it will survive. #girlymen
11/02/09
11/02/09
11/03/09
I mean, is the meaning of life -for those yet not born human beings- to be born just to support the system?
Isn't it everyone's freedom to choose if they will bring or not bring kids to this world? #girlymen
11/03/09
I think smaller population would likely be a good thing (and it is a choice for individuals to make), just saying that (as with all social changes) it will affect things on many different levels and some things would have to be rethought. It was just a general comment... #girlymen
11/03/09
11/04/09
11/02/09
first i'd argue that what these men are doing is ten times more "risky" than the traditional path expected of most japanese men. this bold self-expression seems the antithesis of timid.
second i'm fascinated with the continuing use of the word "herbivore" to describe "girly" "timid" "feminine" "risk-averse" "non-manly," etc. etc. the mythology of the masculine, meat-eating man versus the "herbivorous, grass-eating girly man" is very patriarchal. #girlymen
11/02/09
11/02/09
Of course, I have a hard time parsing that out, because I want girly men to be as free as they want to be, and everyone to only have kids if they want to, and the idea otherwise, even to "save" a society, makes me bristle. #girlymen
11/03/09
Kudos to you! #girlymen
11/03/09
Sorry, I get all excited about this kind of thing. #girlymen
11/03/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
Yes, I'm that level of no clue sometimes.
11/04/09
11/04/09
It's just that I'm new at jezebel and didn't know PM could be done here. #girlymen
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
P.S.: I envy your yellow star, and by what I've seen, you earned it's five horns, comment by comment.
Congrats! #girlymen
11/05/09
11/05/09
Going back to the post, I remember y commented on how I wanted to know if the picture of the japanese dude dressed as Carrie Bradshaw is the pic of an actual japanese girly dude, because the picture the times online used is the one of a real herbiborous boy, and this one looks a bit costume-y to me. And that would be kind of mean by jezebel. #girlymen
11/02/09
Really, from a culture that had the 'Girly Men' as Kabuki actors? Well this isn't anything new... is it? Let them eat their damn cake.
11/02/09
Because nothing spells doom for a society like eating cake and embracing traits deemed "feminine." Wah?
I mean, this trend is about guys but the freaking out by journalists and trend watchers weirdly feels like an anti-woman, anti-"feminine" reaction. Considering that many of these guys indeed identify as heterosexual, I don't see why their embracing of femininity would be the root cause of a dwindling population. It's almost like blaming them for not man-ing up and knocking up some woman, demanding she take of her shoes, directing her to the kitchen, putting on a suit, and heading to the office.
I don't see this movement as a root cause of the population decline in Japan so much as it seems to reflect mainstream mores on what we behavior believe heterosexuals should engage in (and by behavior, I mean things completely outside of say, intercourse and being attracted to the opposite sex).
11/03/09
Gotta love it! #girlymen
11/02/09
11/02/09
11/02/09
11/02/09
(OMG he's totally a girly man!) #girlymen
11/02/09
Is there a large gay population in Japan? I'm curious as to what they would make of this phenomenon. #girlymen
11/02/09
Most of the gay representation comes through media, where they tend to have flamboyant, flamey crossdressers. So, these guys are kinda fitting that mold, except for the wanting to sleep with men stuff. #girlymen
11/02/09
11/02/09
11/02/09
11/02/09
11/02/09
11/02/09
11/02/09
11/02/09
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11/02/09
11/02/09
11/02/09
11/02/09
Bras are pretty! My breasts are small enough that they are really more decorative than, like, a necessity, so I think I understand where these guys are coming from. #girlymen
11/02/09
11/02/09
11/02/09
11/02/09
That's mainly your opinion. Many women (and men) enjoy wearing bras despite their "functional" features. I mean, you might hate it, but to each their own. #girlymen
11/02/09
I think part of wanting to reject traditional masculine roles is rejecting the idea that men have to be the pursuers, have to be sexually dominant, etc. These guys (and others of their ilk) tend to like to be pursued and dominated - some by women, some by men, some like both.
Maybe if we didn't see sexual dominance as masculine, or men wearing women's underwear as humiliating, the picture of their gender would be clearer, but as it is sex and psychology have a lot to do with how we think about gender. #girlymen
11/02/09
Oh, hai. The point. You found it.
It is interesting to see people denigrate femininity vis a vis clothing here.
11/02/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/20/09
The 1911 Shirtwaist fire, and the one in India were unbelievable. #schmattafromragstorichestorags