I've known for many years that I might be susceptible to premature ovarian failure, as my mom ran out of eggs around the age of 32. I'm 30 now and, while I'm not really wild about the idea of having kids in general, I think that if kids *were* a priority for me, a test like this would make me miserable - because it would increase the likelihood that I would have panicked, rushed into a bad relationship just to get knocked up, and possibly be resentful of both child and partner today.
As it is, I've always taken what I view as an appropriately fatalistic view of the whole thing - *if* I find the right partner, *if* we both want kids, *if* I can biologically have them, then, well okay. If any of the factors don't line up and I still want kids, there's adoption (my dad was adopted, so it's not a foreign thing to my family). Even a generation ago, people just accepted that sometimes one's biology is not meant to reproduce itself, and they found other ways to have kids in their lives.
And yes, a "family" can consist of partners and their relatives - no biological kids necessary.
Personally, I'm much more comfortable with the idea that what is supposed to happen will just happen.
Of course, right now it looks like I'm not keen on having babies anyway, I'm in a relationship with a wonderful man who has one child and wants no more, and I've always prioritized a partner relationship over the idea of a parent-child one, so perhaps I don't understand the mindset of someone who wants parenthood above and beyond all else. #fertilitytest
God, reading over this reminds me of how, in every First Amendment case I've ever read, the person involved was almost always a Class-A douchebag - Larry Flynt, the KKK dude, the hitman-catalog people, and so on. I guess this would be another example of "hard cases make bad law." I can see the argument he's making and the space that allows for his legal innocence, but he's such a douchebag I almost want to see him punished anyway.
And yet that is the entire point of the law - to keep people like me from punishing douchebags solely because he is a douchebag.
Man, this is why I like ethics so much more. The standard for behavior is so much higher. Even though an argument could be made that he was within his legal rights, very few would say what he did was ethical. #onlinepredators
Couldn't they do something similar to this a long time ago? It wasn't the same but before I was born they did some sort of genetic testing and said that when I had children I would most likely have twins. Which was later supported by the fact that when I ovulate, I usually drop multiple eggs. #fertilitytest
Not saying he's guilty or innocent, but assuming he was just really, really stupid and actually did only want to have sex with her and then bail, you've got to admit that this is just ridiculously cringeworthy:
Deery said, "You brought three condoms, one for me and one for each of the girls."
"They come in packs of three," he told her. "You can’t buy just one."
I mean, I could imagine just screaming "Fuck fuck fuck." over in your head when you realized how that would be seen by everybody. #onlinepredators
If I could freeze my eggs and know that if I didnt want kiddies when the time came Id be able to give em away I would be the happiest XY ever. #fertilitytest
I don't know if the number is really that low. Back when I still had an AOL account, the age was set to something underage. I remember through college getting random PMs that didn't seem like they were from teens. #onlinepredators
@clevernamehere: I used to go on ICQ or whatever it was called with a friend for kicks. We said we were 15 or 16. Those were not naked pics and come ons from teenagers we were getting. #onlinepredators
@clevernamehere: I remember being on Prodigy when I was 12 and running into dudes who were trying to hook up. PRODIGY, people. This is like the Middle Ages of the Internet.
I used to hang out in chat rooms when I was 14 or so and I got propositioned a bunch. I actually tried to cyber with a dude in his 20s, but I didn't really understand it, so I was just typing really lame sexual shit into the keyboard and waiting to see what he typed back. Yeah, I was a smart one. #onlinepredators
@clevernamehere: Very few people pressure men into have kids before they're ready. Also, there seems to be some weird myth that men can have a healthy child no problem no matter what age they are. #fertilitytest
@femme-bot: Oh, man, there totally is. People ask me when I want to have kids. The answer is "never", but to avoid an argument, I say "Well, now isn't really the time for me. I'm in school, I don't have much money, I'm stressed out, blah blah blah...".
"But what does your boyfriend think? Soon, you'll be too old to have a baby."
...I'm 22. "Uh, he agrees with me."
"Well, the clock's a-ticking!" (I like to insert a LOL here, because if they were typing, I think they would add one instead of punctuation)
My "boyfriend" never gets that. He is also reminded that my "clock" is ticking. THANKS GUYS. #fertilitytest
Regarding the Fail photo: I think she's weighing whether the sperm "wasted" through oral sex will be regretted in the coming years, as his potency diminishes. Maybe they should freeze some now... #fertilitytest
There are so many factors that contribute to infertility. It's just not as cut and dry as this research tries to make it. Sure it would be wonderful if we could just plan "I'd like a girl first, in October of 2012, and then a boy next in January of 2014." But if everything was easily planned I wouldn't have baby #2. #fertilitytest
It's really difficult. On the one hand, we want to demonize rape and rapists as the awful, horrible thing it is. But on the other, overzealousness really can hurt people, and preemptive strikes are fraught with error.
It's such a difficult line to draw - where does it go, and how hard is it? When do we try to preemptively remove a dangerous person from society? When is it infringing on rights? No one wants to think someone is a child molester and then have it confirmed, but you don't want to lock up anyone who hasn't actually done something.
@boxspelunker: I've been rereading the comments on this thread and stopped on your question. Its such a difficult line to watch. How frequently do good intentions cross over into zealotry? Who do we protect when we're willing to ruin people's lives on a just in case?
The discussions here remind me so strongly of the McMartin Preschool scandal and the satanic ritual abuse hysteria. People meant well there to and were trying to protect children from being abused, but they ruined the lives of truly innocent individuals for nothing, for chasing after ghosts in the darkness. This guy is obviously a creep and an asshole and a pervert, but is he a child molester?
I'm not saying that the amount of sexual predators online is not overstated but I will say that the internet has completely skewed younger generations ideas of what it means to be a stranger. They seem to think that just b/c they have IM'ed hours worth of internet conversation w/ someone that they now know this person when the reality is you have no idea who's on the other side of the screen you're typing into. I student asst who works in my dept recently came out and started talking to a guy online. Fine, harmless enough. Then I found out the guy was going to pay for my asst to fly out of state to come and visit him and my asst saw it as no different from me asking him to meet me at my home. This idea that all it takes is a computer to know someone is making it much easier for people to end up in precarious situations. I'm not saying internet predators are more prevalent than any other but it certainly offers predators a new way to reach victims and I think law enforcement is struggling with how to handle that. #onlinepredators
@librariesare4lovers: you bring up an important issue~~ the idea that IMing somebody for hours suddenly makes them somebody you can "trust." i'm constantly amazed at the amount of trust many people put in those they meet online. i'm hoping that it's generational, and the next generation doesn't view the online world as somehow any different than the 3D world~~ strangers are strangers are strangers. although let's face it, many adults are willing to meet and pick up a stranger in a bar and go home with them because they're attractive.
by nature i've always been a suspicious person, untrusting of strangers until i really know who they are. and until you meet somebody in the real world, and spend some significant time with them in the real world, you have no idea who they are.
@librariesare4lovers: But there are all sorts of other things involved in getting to know someone online. In most cases, when people make friends online, they aren't just IMing -- they see this person on a message board every day, they read this person's blog, they friend them on Facebook, they follow them on Twitter. Yeah, it's possible to create a fake identity and use it across all these networks, but hell, it's possible to lie to people's faces, too. (Just look at the Hipster Grifter.) You get to know people online the same way you get to know people in real life -- you talk to them, you learn about their lives, you get a sense of whether or not they're genuine. Sometimes you get burned, sometimes you get lied to, but that's not exclusive to the Internet. #onlinepredators
@egg cream: @msAnthrope:
I completely agree that people are equally vulnerable to be duped in person than they are online. My main was that the internet now offers another mode of access for people to interact with potential targets and that's what has law enforcement scrambling. It's new territory.
But I cannot get on board with the idea that getting to know someone online is the same as getting to know someone in real life. There is a higher degree of anonymity available to people on the internet than in the real world. #onlinepredators
@egg cream: Agree. I've been burned by IRL people just as I have with IM friends. My good IM friends I've talked to for over 6 years. I know when they're bulshitting me. Recently a new IRL friend just came out and said she hates me and always has. WTF? Where was the signs for that? The only signs were that she unfriended me online. #onlinepredators
@BytheSea: Ha! Yeah, I've known one of my online friends for almost 10 years, and she's been there for me through all sorts of stuff this year, while my former best friend, who I knew for almost 13 years, was nowhere to be found. I found out later that we had both been bitching about each other and thinking that it was time for the friendship to end for almost a year -- but never bothered to tell each other about it, even though we were hanging out face-to-face on a regular basis. And yeah, it ended when we defriended each other online.
@Dancingfrog: Some things are gained, though -- I find it's easier to know when someone is bullshitting me online because when they say something that makes me suspicious, I can go back and look at other conversations we've had, to see if they're lying or changing their story. People should take the same precautions online that they do in real life, yes, definitely. But you can know the people you meet online just as well as the people you know in real life, and you can be duped as easily in real life as you can online -- you just need to use some common sense in both situations, and hope for the best. #onlinepredators
@egg cream: i know what you mean. Ever since college ended - I'm 28 -- it seems like you can't trust people you try to befriend as an adult. Do you remember Jerry Seinfeld's bit about how hard it is to make friends as an adult? I think the female version is that women in their 20s are too bitchy and backstabbing to make friends with as an adult. At least I know my IM friend in Canada isn't afraid I'm going to steal her job/man/other bff.
Your im friends exist in the in-between spaces. The 5 minutes before you leave for work, the down time on the train if you ahve an internet phone, 2 am when you just got home from the club and you're unwinding. You see them when you're nt "on" and you're just yourself. It's like elementary school again. It's a very valuable kind of relationship and while I try to have a good IRL social life, I would never want to give up my IM friends.
This is really, really interesting. The web is an interesting medium, because I am of the mind that fantasies cannot be censored. The question, for me, is where the line is crossed. In this particular case, I do feel like I need to know a LOT more. Is intent enough? How do you even prove intent? I've been involved with some men with seriously fucked up fantasies, and I've admittedly indulged them in talking about them, even when I was not interested. Add on the anonymity of the web... #onlinepredators
@Penny: While I'm in agreement with you that fantasies shouldn't be censored, I'm not going to lose any sleep over this guy getting arrested. First off, any idiot does know about the anonymity of the web, so anyone should be cautious about soliciting sex with someone online. You never know who they really are (or how old they are) until you meet them in real life (and then, you still don't always know). And I don't have much sympathy for a guy who agrees to have sex with underage girls. I don't care if he was going along with it to get laid by the adult woman; I don't care if he was taking steroids; I don't care if it was all talk and no action. The fact is, who hasn't at least heard about those Dateline specials? What kind of guy really thinks it's okay to agree to sex with children? And especially to agree to it with an anonymous stranger online? #onlinepredators
@Penny: It's all fun and games until someone shows up at the door with a box of wine coolers. Or in J's case, a paper bag of sex toys. (See p.6 of the article.) #onlinepredators
@Penny: Intent is never enough. Some action is required. I'm not sure what exactly they charge these men with. Maybe it is conspiracy to commit a crime? I don't think it can fall into attempt if there was no actual minor. #onlinepredators
@kansasgirl: I don't have time to read the article in its entirety right now, but I do feel that I need more information about this particular case to really answer those questions. #onlinepredators
@kansasgirl: I agree with you. The part where I actually laughed out loud was where he told her that he'd had a terrible dream that she was actually a police officer. If that's not a clear sign to you that you are acting against your better judgement and should probably stop, I don't know what is.
But I do feel there was something that wasn't entirely fair about her behavior. As a professional who talks to perverts all the time, shouldn't his repeated devolution into fantasies about just the two of them have made her think "Gee, maybe this guy isn't my biggest concern, maybe I should stop pursuing him and start pursuing someone else"? Obviously, he should never have gotten involved in the first place, and on some level it seems like he knew that, and certainly knows it now, but she has a responsibility as a public service to uphold the law, not go above and beyond to make sure that the law is just applied to someone, anyone, regardless of their guilt.
My parents were both attorneys, and they always say, "Everyone's guilty of something." But this being America, the something you're guilty of really ought to match the thing you're sent to jail for. #onlinepredators
@Penny: No disrespect intended; I see where you're going in your original comment. In this modern age of internet anonymity, role playing is a huge part of exploration of identity. If J had stuck to words, I don't think that would have been a crime at all. Sick, perhaps, but not illegal. But we can only take him at his word---for whatever that's worth---that he would have left before the kids came home.
The article is very "those poor poor pedo's" but after someone pleads guilty, they lose their ability to say they didn't do the crime. I'd probably doubt his claims of innocence even had he been tried and convicted, but he pled guilty! So I ain't buying. #onlinepredators
@Titania: I agree that this guy probably shouldn't have been the officer's biggest concern. He seems like an idiot whose willing to have sex with children (or at least agree to do so over the internet) in order to have sex with an adult, instead of a guy specifically seeking children. So on a sliding scale, he's not as bad as a pedophile targeting kids. But it does seem that for busting child predators, you ideally would bust them for itent and catch them before they molest a child, rather than busting them after the fact. #onlinepredators
@kansasgirl: Absolutely. As we can only conclude, there's no way to know what might have happened. And I don't know enough about the mind of perverts, thank god, to say whether or not he was truly interested in children. But I did think that the absence of ANY child porn at all on his computer was an interesting wrinkle--if that was his thing, or even just a thing he was curious about in passing, wouldn't it seem logical that he would have looked at some of that? It's not like it's hard to find and he seems like exactly the kind of computer-sex obsessed person who would go find it if he wanted it. I think it's probably obvious that I'm leaning towards believing his story--this guy is obviously not average in his sexual tastes or habits, but being a deviant and saying disgusting things isn't technically illegal. But then again, if he's that sex-obsessed and just wants to fuck a woman, hookers on Craigslist are just as easy to find. So, I don't know.
I DO know I'm glad that the stuff I write all day is NOT dirty talk with perverts. What a weird job. #onlinepredators
I find it funny that I spent 3 weeks in Thailand and didn't find children there to exhibit ANY of the ridiculous annoying behaviors I see everyday in the US. And there are kids EVERYWHERE there.
I could be around children there and NOT EVEN KNOW IT.
I think our society "hates kids" [as someone without and who never wants kids I find that very hard to believe] because their bad behaviors have been changed into "well he/she is just a child".
No he/she is an AMERICAN child. Screaming, crying and throwing tantrums is ok here. Even in Italy I didn't see the same sort of behavior. #children
11/05/09
As it is, I've always taken what I view as an appropriately fatalistic view of the whole thing - *if* I find the right partner, *if* we both want kids, *if* I can biologically have them, then, well okay. If any of the factors don't line up and I still want kids, there's adoption (my dad was adopted, so it's not a foreign thing to my family). Even a generation ago, people just accepted that sometimes one's biology is not meant to reproduce itself, and they found other ways to have kids in their lives.
And yes, a "family" can consist of partners and their relatives - no biological kids necessary.
Personally, I'm much more comfortable with the idea that what is supposed to happen will just happen.
Of course, right now it looks like I'm not keen on having babies anyway, I'm in a relationship with a wonderful man who has one child and wants no more, and I've always prioritized a partner relationship over the idea of a parent-child one, so perhaps I don't understand the mindset of someone who wants parenthood above and beyond all else. #fertilitytest
11/04/09
And yet that is the entire point of the law - to keep people like me from punishing douchebags solely because he is a douchebag.
Man, this is why I like ethics so much more. The standard for behavior is so much higher. Even though an argument could be made that he was within his legal rights, very few would say what he did was ethical. #onlinepredators
11/04/09
11/04/09
Deery said, "You brought three condoms, one for me and one for each of the girls."
"They come in packs of three," he told her. "You can’t buy just one."
I mean, I could imagine just screaming "Fuck fuck fuck." over in your head when you realized how that would be seen by everybody. #onlinepredators
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
I used to hang out in chat rooms when I was 14 or so and I got propositioned a bunch. I actually tried to cyber with a dude in his 20s, but I didn't really understand it, so I was just typing really lame sexual shit into the keyboard and waiting to see what he typed back. Yeah, I was a smart one. #onlinepredators
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
"But what does your boyfriend think? Soon, you'll be too old to have a baby."
...I'm 22. "Uh, he agrees with me."
"Well, the clock's a-ticking!" (I like to insert a LOL here, because if they were typing, I think they would add one instead of punctuation)
My "boyfriend" never gets that. He is also reminded that my "clock" is ticking. THANKS GUYS. #fertilitytest
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
"A gummy worm!"
No... that's not a gummy worm... #fertilitytest
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
It's such a difficult line to draw - where does it go, and how hard is it? When do we try to preemptively remove a dangerous person from society? When is it infringing on rights? No one wants to think someone is a child molester and then have it confirmed, but you don't want to lock up anyone who hasn't actually done something.
I don't really know what to think. :/ #onlinepredators
11/04/09
The discussions here remind me so strongly of the McMartin Preschool scandal and the satanic ritual abuse hysteria. People meant well there to and were trying to protect children from being abused, but they ruined the lives of truly innocent individuals for nothing, for chasing after ghosts in the darkness. This guy is obviously a creep and an asshole and a pervert, but is he a child molester?
I don't know either. #onlinepredators
11/04/09
11/04/09
by nature i've always been a suspicious person, untrusting of strangers until i really know who they are. and until you meet somebody in the real world, and spend some significant time with them in the real world, you have no idea who they are.
11/04/09
11/04/09
I completely agree that people are equally vulnerable to be duped in person than they are online. My main was that the internet now offers another mode of access for people to interact with potential targets and that's what has law enforcement scrambling. It's new territory.
But I cannot get on board with the idea that getting to know someone online is the same as getting to know someone in real life. There is a higher degree of anonymity available to people on the internet than in the real world. #onlinepredators
11/04/09
11/04/09
Maybe you just don't have our l33t friend making skilz. #onlinepredators
11/05/09
@Dancingfrog: Some things are gained, though -- I find it's easier to know when someone is bullshitting me online because when they say something that makes me suspicious, I can go back and look at other conversations we've had, to see if they're lying or changing their story. People should take the same precautions online that they do in real life, yes, definitely. But you can know the people you meet online just as well as the people you know in real life, and you can be duped as easily in real life as you can online -- you just need to use some common sense in both situations, and hope for the best. #onlinepredators
11/05/09
Your im friends exist in the in-between spaces. The 5 minutes before you leave for work, the down time on the train if you ahve an internet phone, 2 am when you just got home from the club and you're unwinding. You see them when you're nt "on" and you're just yourself. It's like elementary school again. It's a very valuable kind of relationship and while I try to have a good IRL social life, I would never want to give up my IM friends.
#onlinepredators
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
But I do feel there was something that wasn't entirely fair about her behavior. As a professional who talks to perverts all the time, shouldn't his repeated devolution into fantasies about just the two of them have made her think "Gee, maybe this guy isn't my biggest concern, maybe I should stop pursuing him and start pursuing someone else"? Obviously, he should never have gotten involved in the first place, and on some level it seems like he knew that, and certainly knows it now, but she has a responsibility as a public service to uphold the law, not go above and beyond to make sure that the law is just applied to someone, anyone, regardless of their guilt.
My parents were both attorneys, and they always say, "Everyone's guilty of something." But this being America, the something you're guilty of really ought to match the thing you're sent to jail for. #onlinepredators
11/04/09
11/04/09
The article is very "those poor poor pedo's" but after someone pleads guilty, they lose their ability to say they didn't do the crime. I'd probably doubt his claims of innocence even had he been tried and convicted, but he pled guilty! So I ain't buying. #onlinepredators
11/04/09
The emphasis was meant to be self-deprecating but probably didn't come off that way. #onlinepredators
11/04/09
11/04/09
I DO know I'm glad that the stuff I write all day is NOT dirty talk with perverts. What a weird job. #onlinepredators
11/04/09
I could be around children there and NOT EVEN KNOW IT.
I think our society "hates kids" [as someone without and who never wants kids I find that very hard to believe] because their bad behaviors have been changed into "well he/she is just a child".
No he/she is an AMERICAN child. Screaming, crying and throwing tantrums is ok here. Even in Italy I didn't see the same sort of behavior. #children
11/03/09