I wonder whether the economy affects our perceptions of ethics. In hard times, success is even more crucial. Cheating on a test may get you into a better school, giving you better options in life (at least according to conventional wisdom, not real life wisdom, of course!) Backstabbing a co-worker to get ahead may save you from the layoff-ax, I could go on...
I absolutely despite this darwinist, life-is-a-jungle rhetoric. We are still a civilized society and we should aim for morality rather than ME-first instinct.
Crap, now I should go become a communist or something. #ethics
I could get all upset about this, but I know from experience that even generally honest people can be provoked to at least lie. It just isn't always about school. I have never cheated in school, and will never. Never shared answers to a test or homework, never plagiarized on a paper. I've failed legitimately for not being prepared, and I like to think my successes are legitimate also. It's one of the few things I take an absolute hard line about as a teacher, too. It's too bad institutions don't feel the same way. I think a lot of kids cheat because the consequences are nonexistent, from kindergarten up.
But I freely admit to being less than honest in my personal life, particularly when people are poking at me beyond my comfort level. I don't feel the need to do it as much as I get older; I think for a lot of people, it's a function of insecurity and I'm not that insecure anymore. Of course, it hurts absolutely no one if my pre-dinner drinks stories are distorted in some way, and I hardly pretend to have a fascinating life myself (I'm more prone to elide or obfuscate for the sake of a better story--like any fiction writer!), but it didn't exactly please my parents when I'd tell them what they wanted to hear about where I was going. My parents would freak about the most normal things, like my dating. To this day, the most common lie told in my parents' house, by me or my siblings, is that so-and-so isn't a bf/gf but "just a friend." My folks are relaxing a little, though, possibly seeing that their position on these things has led to three of their four children crossing into thirty without marrying or having kids. Things apparently change when you start to worry you won't have more than one grandkid. #ethics
You say more readily admit to cheating, I say more readily proud of getting away with cheating (and lying in general).That being said, I think there are different tiers of lying. I have been, since birth, a professional bullshitter. It helps in my storytelling and it helps in the Industry. I actually think that's why people like me gravitate towards this line of work.
There are big lies and little lies. I'm curious if that was taken into account or if they just use the, "cheating is a gateway drug" line of reasoning. I know, I know, moral relativism is a great thing.
But ever since my last tea with the Queen where she gave me one of her Corgis who I then trained to speak french, my IQ has made me a more thoughtful person.
My ex is in business and has cheated and lied his way through life - at school, at home, with friends. Now he's an "adult" and cheats in his business. His lying was always so pathetic, too. Like a child with crumbs all over him, insisting he never ever ever ate the cookies. But that's what his mom taught him to do this from a young age, directly. Cheat on a test. Lie about fighting. Blame it on someone else. He's already spent some time in jail, and he's going to spend more. His mom did him a major disservice. #ethics
Interesting. I would have rather slit my wrists than cheated on a test in high school, yet I cheated on my ex-husband. Clearly I am so immoral the ethicists don't know what to do with me.
(To make it really funky, I have been known to give back extra change and to also turn in five dollar bills that I found on the floor in the lobby of my workplace. ZOMG COMPLEXITY.) #ethics
@whynotshesaid: Hey sister. I couldn't stand the thought of cheating on anything and have always given back wrong change, but I also cheated on my ex-husband. He was (and probably still is) an abusive asshole and part of me has always thought he had it coming. The rest of me says two wrongs don't make a right.
I cheated on him with Mr. G. We've been together for 22 years, so how complex does that make things? #ethics
My ex-husband was also an abusive asshole, and there is a part of me that also says he had it coming. (Even my best friend has said he's lucky that's all I did to him.) But then I also think, like you said, that his being an asshole does not negate my being an asshole.
And like you, I cheated with my current husband, who I've been with for three years now.
I have to ask, though - do you ever feel guilty? If so, did the guilt subside over time? Because sometimes I feel like such a huge dickhead for what I did, and I would like to know if that feeling will eventually go away.
BTW - congratulations on becoming a kitten mom! #ethics
Of course teens will think cheating gets you ahead in life. Adults get away with cheating all the time. Look at professional sports, politics, celebrities, anything. Look at how many people cheat on their taxes and how few get caught.
As Cartman/Mr. Escalante told his students to get away with cheating like white people do, in a glorious South Park episode--"I did not lie. I misinterpreted the rules." #ethics
I certainly don't have the answers to why kids cheat, or cheat more often, but this post somehow brought to mind the valedictorian and 3rd-ranked student of my high school class. Both of them were legitimately very intelligent, but both of them had a cheating problem. Specifically, they would plagiarize. This was the mid-late '90s, when teachers were less internet-savvy. These same teachers really liked both girls. Ultimately, the girls were not held responsible for their actions. In retrospect, I kind of wish I had been vocal about their shenanigans. It was incredibly frustrating to do honest work and get lower grades for it. Ultimately, I got into my Ivy (so my hyper-competitive teenage self was satisfied), they got into their Seven Sisters, the world kept turning and the sun continued to rise and set.
The most egregious instance of their cheating was when the 3rd-ranked student turned in a plagiarized essay for a final paper in English. She loved the teacher and he loved her. He had, however, assigned the paper with the words, "If I find out anyone plagiarized, I will give them a zero on the paper." Miss 3rd plagiarized and got caught, so what did he do? He turned her A+ into an A-.
So maybe what I'm trying to say is, if people thought there were real consequences for cheating that applied across the board, they wouldn't do it, because they'd be less likely to believe they'd get away with it in the first place. #ethics
It's one thing to say something and actually do it--we're really not entirely sure if these teens are just, well, being bigmouth teens. Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I know that even though, when I worked as a cashier at a cafe when I was 17 and I told myself that I'd keep change that was mistakenly given to me, I could never do it. Just like sneaking tips that were meant to be pooled together and then divided equally. Maybe I'm also just a nice person, but I've totally attempted to cheat on exams--although I have before, and successfully, I quickly learned it wasn't worth the hassle.
I don't know. But I get tired of the "X generation is going to the dogs! What is our world coming to!" crap. People aren't fully formed at 17, or 18, or even 20. Hopefully I'll be less of a shitty 20 year old when I'm 50 (and if I'm not, than...well...I suck). #ethics
The other day my husband said he felt like there were almost no good people in the world. It broke my heart. We do live in LA, death place of all that is good and right, but still. His feeling that an honest, nice man can't get ahead was very sobering. When he encounters a person who is just nice to him in the course of his work, it's actually something to come home and tell me about. #ethics
@BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit): I have to admit there are times that I feel that way too. As a recruiter and an agent, I meet so many people. I also tell my partner whenever I meet someone genuine, polite and forthright - it is a rare occurance these days. Good people come to LA and they either change or they leave. #ethics
@BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit): Well, if you ever pull out the secret Jezebel handshake at the Arclight or some other LA venue, I will totally let you and hubs cut me in line. I would like to keep the balance in the LA force (it's a full time job). #ethics
@echoparkgal: My sister said the same thing about LA. She said she thought it was great until she moved there and couldn't find anyone to connect with on an honest level. She's lasted longer than most people I know who started out in New England. My BIL's job is moving out there soon; I wonder how he'll fare. #ethics
@BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit): Mr. G has said the same thing in the last year. He's also tired of people praising him to the skies just for being a decent person. Why is that necessary? Shouldn't we all just be polite and helpful to others?
LA doesn't have the corner on the bad people market - we have our share in Lower Crapovia too. #ethics
At least in my experience, sometimes you have to cheat in order to even keep up, let alone get ahead.
When your quizzes are online and all of your peers are going to be looking at the book or taking them jointly or opening an old answer sheet - and messing up the curve - are you really going to put yourself at a disadvantage just to stay honest?
In high school we copied just to be able to handle the workload along with extracurriculars expected from us.
Our education system has fostered an environment of somewhat unrealistic expectations. Are we supposed to be surprised kids are willing to compromise their morals to keep up?
And, unfortunately, the attitude this environment creates may extend beyond the years of schooling. #ethics
@lalie (apologetic mess): Agreed--I think when professors give closed-book take home tests, closed book online quizzes, etc., they set up a system that rewards cheaters and punishes honest people and it bothers me. #ethics
@pantsless economist...access RESTORED: Come to think of it, honor codes just get on my nerves. My undergrad school was all serious business about the honor code, and expelled some students for some really absurd violations (e.g., a guy was kicked out for plagiarism when he made a small and completely honest mistake)--and meanwhile, actual cheating is going on left and right. #ethics
I think that it goes beyond "confessional journalism."
This may have to do with the canonization of the celebrity "Mea Culpa" and the ensuing cascade of "But he's sorry!" or "He admitted that he was wrong!"s. In the public eye, somehow admitting you're an asshole makes you seem like less of an asshole, because you choose to live your life as an out of the closet asshole rather than a secret asshole. But often times, the public admitting of wrongdoing is an even more assholey behavior, because the asshole in question admitted to the behavior with the intent of garnering sympathy and support rather than actually apologizing. #ethics
@morninggloria: I thought that was what Christianity was for (I mean, besides land-grabbing). Like, couldn't Michael Richards just find Christ and shut the fuck up? #ethics
@BearDownCBears: Christianity is the ultimate Trump card.
"Yeah, I kick puppies and cheat on my wife but Jesus Christ is my Personal Lord and Savior so that means that I'm going to heaven no matter what so NYAH NYAH NYAH!" #ethics
@morninggloria: like my very wise high school english teacher said when I apologized every other day for coming into class late -- don't apologize, change the behavior! #ethics
"Don't say 'I'm sorry.'" He'd say. "Tell me 'it won't happen again.'"
I like to think it was really helpful and formative, considering women often apologize for things even when they haven't done wrong, just because they've been socialized to.
I was a serious "good" girl in high school (and still), but I remember cheating one time on a US History test my junior year of high school. I felt SO guilty and ashamed that I had not been keeping up on my studies enough to be tempted to cheat that I made myself read each chapter and take notes so I never had to cheat again. Like, it took around 2 hours for each chapter. I did end up raising my grade from a C to a B+, so it worked.
Now I work in a high school and wish Icould teach kids how to feel guilt over decisions they make. #ethics
To be fair, maybe school is also becoming more and more bullshit?
I cheated on the odd test in school and I certainly copied off friends' homework assignments a few times. I also aided and abetted; my friend and I used to have to leave our French assignments open on our desks over break, so all the others could copy. But I never would have cheated when it mattered, like on a state exam or end of year exam. It's just, the vast majority of the time, it didn't matter, because most of the time you spend in school is time wasted.
And come on, what teenager doesn't lie to their parents? Some things parents just didn't need to know. Nothing horrific, just a few bits of info, bad teenage experimentations, that are best kept between me, the dog I talked to for an hour thinking we were having a conversation, and my friend's bottle of home made absinthe. Ahh youth. #ethics
@rah29: Maybe this is it: children/young adults think that cheating in ANY context, and don't make the distinction you make. And perhaps adults have a different take on what cheating is. #ethics
@rah29: Sounds like a rationale for tracking in high schools. I vacillate on that out of privilege guilt, I guess. But holy shit I wasted so much time in high school just because some students wouldn't have been able to keep up in a decent college prep curriculum. #ethics
@BearDownCBears: Hah. I cheated in honours classes too, mostly because honours maths was just really bloody hard, and my best friend was really good at it. So not a recipe for success in exams; of course I got like a C- in the end!
@doingtheunstuck: I like that! Teamwork and trust. I never really understood why people got upset about letting others copy their work, but that might be because in the country where I grew up, you live or die by the state exams. Even if there had been an element of competition--which there isn't, because it's just not how the system works, no ranking or anything--it was still like, if you need to copy my assignment you're clearly not going to be the person who skews the whole country's curve and denies me my grade! #ethics
Also, ha, props to criminal mastermind Intern Katy for writing a post that gets everybody to squirmily rationalize their childhood misdeeds. Nobody is a clockwork orange, etc.
10/29/09
I absolutely despite this darwinist, life-is-a-jungle rhetoric. We are still a civilized society and we should aim for morality rather than ME-first instinct.
Crap, now I should go become a communist or something. #ethics
10/29/09
But I freely admit to being less than honest in my personal life, particularly when people are poking at me beyond my comfort level. I don't feel the need to do it as much as I get older; I think for a lot of people, it's a function of insecurity and I'm not that insecure anymore. Of course, it hurts absolutely no one if my pre-dinner drinks stories are distorted in some way, and I hardly pretend to have a fascinating life myself (I'm more prone to elide or obfuscate for the sake of a better story--like any fiction writer!), but it didn't exactly please my parents when I'd tell them what they wanted to hear about where I was going. My parents would freak about the most normal things, like my dating. To this day, the most common lie told in my parents' house, by me or my siblings, is that so-and-so isn't a bf/gf but "just a friend." My folks are relaxing a little, though, possibly seeing that their position on these things has led to three of their four children crossing into thirty without marrying or having kids. Things apparently change when you start to worry you won't have more than one grandkid. #ethics
10/29/09
There are big lies and little lies. I'm curious if that was taken into account or if they just use the, "cheating is a gateway drug" line of reasoning. I know, I know, moral relativism is a great thing.
But ever since my last tea with the Queen where she gave me one of her Corgis who I then trained to speak french, my IQ has made me a more thoughtful person.
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(To make it really funky, I have been known to give back extra change and to also turn in five dollar bills that I found on the floor in the lobby of my workplace. ZOMG COMPLEXITY.) #ethics
10/29/09
I cheated on him with Mr. G. We've been together for 22 years, so how complex does that make things? #ethics
10/29/09
My ex-husband was also an abusive asshole, and there is a part of me that also says he had it coming. (Even my best friend has said he's lucky that's all I did to him.) But then I also think, like you said, that his being an asshole does not negate my being an asshole.
And like you, I cheated with my current husband, who I've been with for three years now.
I have to ask, though - do you ever feel guilty? If so, did the guilt subside over time? Because sometimes I feel like such a huge dickhead for what I did, and I would like to know if that feeling will eventually go away.
BTW - congratulations on becoming a kitten mom! #ethics
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10/29/09
As Cartman/Mr. Escalante told his students to get away with cheating like white people do, in a glorious South Park episode--"I did not lie. I misinterpreted the rules." #ethics
10/29/09
The most egregious instance of their cheating was when the 3rd-ranked student turned in a plagiarized essay for a final paper in English. She loved the teacher and he loved her. He had, however, assigned the paper with the words, "If I find out anyone plagiarized, I will give them a zero on the paper." Miss 3rd plagiarized and got caught, so what did he do? He turned her A+ into an A-.
So maybe what I'm trying to say is, if people thought there were real consequences for cheating that applied across the board, they wouldn't do it, because they'd be less likely to believe they'd get away with it in the first place. #ethics
10/29/09
I don't know. But I get tired of the "X generation is going to the dogs! What is our world coming to!" crap. People aren't fully formed at 17, or 18, or even 20. Hopefully I'll be less of a shitty 20 year old when I'm 50 (and if I'm not, than...well...I suck). #ethics
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LA doesn't have the corner on the bad people market - we have our share in Lower Crapovia too. #ethics
10/29/09
When your quizzes are online and all of your peers are going to be looking at the book or taking them jointly or opening an old answer sheet - and messing up the curve - are you really going to put yourself at a disadvantage just to stay honest?
In high school we copied just to be able to handle the workload along with extracurriculars expected from us.
Our education system has fostered an environment of somewhat unrealistic expectations. Are we supposed to be surprised kids are willing to compromise their morals to keep up?
And, unfortunately, the attitude this environment creates may extend beyond the years of schooling. #ethics
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This may have to do with the canonization of the celebrity "Mea Culpa" and the ensuing cascade of "But he's sorry!" or "He admitted that he was wrong!"s. In the public eye, somehow admitting you're an asshole makes you seem like less of an asshole, because you choose to live your life as an out of the closet asshole rather than a secret asshole. But often times, the public admitting of wrongdoing is an even more assholey behavior, because the asshole in question admitted to the behavior with the intent of garnering sympathy and support rather than actually apologizing. #ethics
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"Yeah, I kick puppies and cheat on my wife but Jesus Christ is my Personal Lord and Savior so that means that I'm going to heaven no matter what so NYAH NYAH NYAH!" #ethics
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"Don't say 'I'm sorry.'" He'd say. "Tell me 'it won't happen again.'"
I like to think it was really helpful and formative, considering women often apologize for things even when they haven't done wrong, just because they've been socialized to.
Thanks, Dad! You're the awesomest. #ethics
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(And gosh darn I wish he'd been around when I was growing up, 'cause I would have used that with about ten thousand people by now, including an ex and my own parents.) #ethics
10/29/09
Now I work in a high school and wish Icould teach kids how to feel guilt over decisions they make. #ethics
10/29/09
I cheated on the odd test in school and I certainly copied off friends' homework assignments a few times. I also aided and abetted; my friend and I used to have to leave our French assignments open on our desks over break, so all the others could copy. But I never would have cheated when it mattered, like on a state exam or end of year exam. It's just, the vast majority of the time, it didn't matter, because most of the time you spend in school is time wasted.
And come on, what teenager doesn't lie to their parents? Some things parents just didn't need to know. Nothing horrific, just a few bits of info, bad teenage experimentations, that are best kept between me, the dog I talked to for an hour thinking we were having a conversation, and my friend's bottle of home made absinthe. Ahh youth. #ethics
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I completely agree with your first statement. #ethics
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@doingtheunstuck: I like that! Teamwork and trust. I never really understood why people got upset about letting others copy their work, but that might be because in the country where I grew up, you live or die by the state exams. Even if there had been an element of competition--which there isn't, because it's just not how the system works, no ranking or anything--it was still like, if you need to copy my assignment you're clearly not going to be the person who skews the whole country's curve and denies me my grade! #ethics
10/29/09
Also, ha, props to criminal mastermind Intern Katy for writing a post that gets everybody to squirmily rationalize their childhood misdeeds. Nobody is a clockwork orange, etc.