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New York, 4:14 PM
Sat Nov 7
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08/20/09
Some little girls -- a pair of Jewish girls and a black girl -- started going at each other. It reached a fever pitch when Certain Words were thrown about in a very frightening Lord of the Flies playground race riot.
Our principal, the gentle post-hippie Dr. Milgrim, took those three girls into her office and talked to them, and made them talk to each other. for like an hour. When other names came up -- deputies and witnesses -- those girls were called in, too. Concessions were made. Apologies were given. Dr. Milgrim taught us the term "we don't have to like each other but we do have to get along at school." The woman was goddamn Dumbledore except she did her job.
The bullying stopped. Race and religion stopped being interesting. the girls grew up rather nice and friendly, tho not with each other. It worked because Dr. Milgrim didn't treat us like a bunch of little girls, she asked us our problems and taught us how to work through them, like adults. Stopping bullying can work, but administrators have to get to the root of the problem and they have to LISTEN. Children's world is not your world. It is an alien place and for a grownup to come in and settle things, he can't stick a bandaid on a problem with some rhetoric. There are no bullies, there's just relationships. Some are good, some are bad.
08/20/09
Your principal knew this and treated these children like people. Perhaps their problems are small, but that doesn't mean they aren't important. And better to resolve small problems now than be unable to solve big ones later on in life.
Final note, it is vitally important to listen and respect a child's pain. After all, it may be small to us, but it is very big to them. And the girl in the article is the tragic evidence of that fact.
08/19/09
I know I sound cynical, which is why I got out of the game when I did. Childhood is like a giant internet flame war with standardized tests.
Did bullying cause this girl's disorder? I don't know, but it certainly didn't help.
08/19/09
2) Bullies are jerks, yes. They do horrible things, yes. But there is something to be learned from bullies: they are everywhere, and they don't end at school. There are bullies everywhere in life. Even if you made it through school without being bullied, somewhere, someone eventually will bully you. Some people are just jerks. It's a good thing to learn. Jerk Idenification, Jerk Avoidance, and How to Not Be a Jerk are important things to learn. But jerks will never go away altogether. To some extents, your kid has to learn to deal with it eventually.
08/19/09
1. Yes. And part of school is learning social skills along with math and reading and science. They are not mutually exclusive. The fact that bullying goes on in classrooms says that A. overcrowding is an issue and B. it's allowing destructive behavior to go unchecked.
2. ::sigh:: There are a lot of threads addressing this, but you can learn lots of life lessons about how tough it is in the "real" world without bullying. If people physically threaten or harm you as an adult, they can be charged with assault. There are consequences in the adult world for bullying behavior (like harassment laws, sexual and otherwise). And yet we seem completely comfortable with not addressing these behaviors when people are younger and at their most susceptible to learning consequences.
The burden of dealing with bullying seems to be laid entirely at the feet of those victimized by it, and that seems troubling to me. Why aren't those who perpetuate this behavior held accountable, or even expected to be held accountable?
Kids who are bullied and don't have it addressed don't learn that sometimes people are jerks. They learn that abuse is okay, and tolerated, and something they have to put up with. That's not the same lesson. Because you do have ways to address it as an adult. Another adult can't just harass you on a daily basis, or hit you, or call you names in the work place.
Plus, there are levels of bullying. It sucks to be called a name a few times, but it's not the same as systematic abuse. Like being targeted, physically assaulted, sexually harassed, or verbally assaulted on a daily basis. I don't know anyone who would come out of that unscathed and there's no reason not to deal with it, or to just shrug our shoulders and say "oh, well, sometimes people suck". That's how you end up teaching kids that it's okay to abuse other people.
08/19/09
08/19/09
08/19/09
Bullying is aggressively targeting someone, and then repetitively verbally or physically intimidating/insulting/assaulting them. It's quite different than someone who just isn't very nice. It's a systematic way of tearing someone down, consistently. Though someone can be bullied once, or multiple times, I'd say it's rarely a one-time occurrence.
Lots of kids learn that life isn't perfect but aren't subjected to daily bullying. I think we're looking at this like, if kids don't get a lot of hard knocks, they won't get "tough". i think kids get plenty of hard knocks just by virtue of being a kid. And bullying will happen. But we can do a lot to prevent it.
I mean, unless they're taught otherwise, bullies as children grown up to be adult bullies. And they're generally the ones I see starting fights, or abusing partners. It's a bad cycle.
08/19/09
I'm still fat, but I have issues with food, like not liking to eat in front of people. I am fat, and therefore do not deserve food.
I also went on a self-designed diet in high school where I would eat nothing but Dexatrim -- the OLD Dexatrim -- during the day and only eat dinner at night.
And all those teachers and guidence counselers said -- oh, it's just what kids do. You need to toughen up.
One of my most vivid memories is having gotten what I thought was a beautiful red leather jacket in third grade from my grandmother. The class conspired to hide it behind an extremely dusty filing cabinet in the coatroom. And the nun had me stand up in front of the class with her while she told the class they should be ashamed and that I was a good, beautiful girl.
Sister Eileen, you meant well.
08/19/09
Having been bullied, I am astounded at how simple it is to get them to back down now, and I really wish I'd known more about it at the time.
08/19/09
Having been bullied myself, I honestly don't think teaching empathy and niceness to a bunch of 15 year olds does anything. 15 year olds can be vicious bastards, which is why I also reject the concept that bullying of that kind happens in the 'real world' so you should just suck it up. Nothing is as awful as high school, not least because when you're that age you feel everything so much more acutely. But the benefit of a school environment is that there are authorities who really have the ability to punish bullies, and to get them hard. If bullies really believe they're going to be in serious trouble, it doesn't stop everything, but it sure helps--if only by giving bullied students the confidence to feel like they have the upper hand.
08/19/09
08/19/09
As for the parents, they were very rarely involved in school goings-on, which kind of left it up to teachers. At least when I was in school, it was a culture in which teachers were generally assumed to be in the right (this is changing, thankfully, as we now know how generations of parental non-involvement in schooling enabled priests all over the country to do whatever the hell they wanted with their students). I don't think my parents ever once backed me against a teacher--if I got in trouble they assumed the teacher was right. Even when my principal blatantly hated me, my parents' approach was basically, deal with it.
08/19/09
08/19/09
08/19/09
Expulsion? The bully goes to another school and finds someone new to pick on.
Suspension? The kid comes back and the bullying resumes.
Mediation, counseling, and anti-bullying programs? Rarely have much of a long-term effect.
Sent to the principal's office? The bully just hides their bullying better the next time.
Also, because a lot of bullying has no evidence, just a he said/she said thing, it's often hard for the schools to do anything at all.
Unfortunately, no matter what the punishment, it doesn't usually address the root causes of bullying. There's only so much that a school can be held accountable for.
08/19/09
08/20/09
And frankly, the root cause of bullying is...bullying. Many child bullies are abused by parents or older siblings, and their victims may find more victims. Administrative inaction emboldens them and speeds the cycle along.
One notorious bully from my middle school was allowed to escalate her behavior, in full view of teachers, until she stabbed another child with a dull pair of scissors. She was suspended and put into counseling sessions afterward. Whether it solved the "root cause" of her behavior or not, she learned that her behavior was not to be tolerated and she cut it out. The school got a little nicer, a little safer. So often, adults deliberately let bullying slide because they simply don't think it's serious, or they think it's good for kids. They would never tolerate the same in their own work environment.
08/20/09
08/20/09
08/19/09
Why do so many of us consider this good practice for children, but not for us? You don't stop learning social lessons, stop "toughening up" when you become an adult.
How many of you, who defend bullying as "survival of the fittest" or something bullied kids bring on themselves, would stick it out in a workplace where your colleagues and superiors either bullied you or stood by and watched? How many of you would be grateful for the life lessons it provided?
I'm dying to know.
08/19/09
I don't think it's usually fair to hold schools responsible for the acts that occur within their halls. Sure, if a gross lapse in attention or judgment occurs, then it's fair. But even when kids are being bullied, there's only so much intervening the school can do. You can't have some adult's eyes on every single victim of bullying every single minute of the day. Kids are sneaky, and eventually the would-be bullies will find some moment or method to act out, even when they are being supervised.
Plus, my gut feeling is that she would have developed the eating disorder anyway. You don't develop an eating disorder because someone tells you you're fat; you develop it as a reaction to the stresses in your life. If she hadn't been bullied, there would have been other types of stress that would have likely sent her down the same road.
08/19/09
I was bullied in full view of teachers for 2 years of my life. I was verbally and physically abused...I was sexually harassed, spit on, groped. On a daily basis. In every class. My teachers did nothing. My parents did nothing. The school did nothing, even when they were told, even when it was right in front of them.
I developed anxiety and depression, and years later, an ED. Largely because people had told me I was fat, every day. That I was fat and disgusting and worthless. That was a huge contributor to how I viewed myself, and why I though starvation might "solve" that problem. I don't blame my ED on anyone, but at the same time, the actions of others contributed to the problem.
The school, just like the bullies, are responsible for their actions and inactions. If I'm responsible for my reaction to it, why aren't they for putting me in that position? If they aren't, who is? How are the bullies not responsible for what they chose to say and do? How is the school not responsible for not stepping in?
I'm not trying to attack you, I know what you mean. But we don't know why each person develops an ED. Some people develop them from sexual abuse, others from not wanting to develop sexually, some from family control issues, others from social pressure etc. We don't know if she would have developed an ED anyway, and that's not really a good excuse for the school not to be held accountable for doing nothing in this situation.
If a grown up were being sexually harassed in the workplace, we'd expect the law to do something about it. Why don't we expect schools and teachers and parents?
In this case, the bullies aren't being held accountable. The school is. I think it's shaky on the ED front, but not on the bullying front. If they have an anti-bullying policy they're liable for what happens during school hours.
And I actually think we should definitely be holding kids accountable for the consequences of their actions. We except those subjected to them to do so, why not those perpetrating the problem?
08/19/09
08/19/09
But, just wanted to say to Nora Charles, not upset with you...just the general lack of bullying procedures most schools seem to have. The expectation of dealing with it seems to rest entirely on those victimized, and it's frustrating to see so little emphasis put on those who do the bullying.
08/19/09
In cases where school administrators and educators witness bullying and ignore it, of course they should be held responsible. But I think that people, and parents of those who are being bullied especially, jump to the conclusions that that's what's going on when there's no serious evidence that there is. In order to hold a school responsible for the bullying, I think that two things need to be proven:
a) That they witnessed it, and
b) That they did nothing about it.
In terms of the first case, a huge amount of bullying takes place outside of the teachers' eyes. This is especially true after the bullying has been reported and some sort of "punishment" has been handed down. In the teacher's eyes, the bullying has stopped, but in reality, the bully has just learned to do it elsewhere.
Also, as a kid, you feel like you're the only one being bullied, but in reality, there are plenty of others going through the same thing. When there's one teacher and her class has six bullies, there's no way she can stop each and every incident even if she does witness them, which is unlikely in and of itself.
In terms of point B, things get even tougher. Unfortunately, the teachers can't address the root causes of bullying (which almost always come from the parents or older siblings or the child's family life in general). That means that no matter what punishment the child receives for the bullying--suspension, a chat with the principal, an anti-bullying program--the bullying is still likely to continue. People seem to be assuming that because the bullying continues, the administrators ignored it--but that's simply not true. The teachers and other school officials can punish the child however they like, but without the help of the parents, the behavior is unlikely to change.
Of course I would love to see schools being a bully-free zone. But it just doesn't seem feasible. I see a lot of people saying, "Oh, the schools need to put an end to this," but not any realistic suggestions as to how that's going to happen. The obvious answers have already been done, and they aren't making a difference. So how do we do it?
As for why the bullies themselves can't be held responsible? They're children. They don't understand what effect their words can have. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be punished, but they absolutely cannot be held morally responsible for the eating disorders or suicide attempts or depression or whatever results from their bullying, because their brains are not developed enough to understand that bullying could lead to that. One of my friends tells me about a boy in her third grade class who was widely bullied for a whole host of reasons . . . and he ended up killing himself by setting himself on fire. (Obviously he also had issues at home that led to this.) This story is heartbreaking, but obviously no child in that class had the cognitive ability to recognize what effect their bullying would have. Probably the child himself did not make the connection between the bullying and the suicide when he chose to do it. As adults, we can make those connections, but children can't. The idea that someday, those children may be held legally responsible for that child's death is terrifying to me. People seem to be forgetting that bullying is largely a "natural," involuntary social interaction that needs to be socialized out of us. I'm not saying that that makes it right; I'm saying that that means that children will resort to it until they mature emotionally enough to make better decisions. They can't voluntarily make the decision to become more mature, and there is only so much a teacher can do to push them along if the other adult figures in their lives aren't modeling the correct behaviors.
08/19/09
I don't actually think the school or the kids are responsible for this girls ED. I think they're responsible for their contributing to bullying. I think that, like abuse, situations like this can contribute to whatever outlet a person seeks to deal with it...whether it's depression or an ED. Without the bullying, they may not have developed such alienation and depression, for instance. Those are consequences of the bullying. I don't know too many kids who would react to being ostracized and picked on with bubbly self esteem. It's like any other abuse. We would never say a woman who has been verbally or physically abused by a partner who then became depressed was to blame, and we'd hold the partner accountable for having caused that situation. Just because kids don't always understand the consequences of their actions, doesn't mean they aren't responsible for what they do. It's a pretty important life lesson, learning that what you say and do can effect other people.
It's like any abuse, no matter the age of the abuser. I'm not saying lock kids up, but it has to be treated as more serious than it is. Because as you said, they're still developing, and if that behavior goes unchecked it gets worse in adolescence, and then adulthood.
Like most things, this stuff has to be taught earlier on. We can't police what people are teaching their kids at home, but we can make sure that anti-bullying social skills are started much younger and that school policies are consistent about consequences. They should start the second kids enter daycare, or at the very least pre-school. My niece had a program like that and at 5 she actively stopped the bullying behaviors of other classmates because she knew it was wrong. The pressure has to come from adults as well as other children.
I think the reason most people feel as though it's being ignored is that many people here have clearly had that experience, and that seems to be the case above. It's anecdotal, but I know my school system did nothing about bullying until Columbine happened. No policies, other than blaming victims. Even when it happened right in front of them. Mainly because they shared the attitude that it was just how things are.
The bullying I experienced was primarily in adolescence. By that point, it was too late to do much to correct the behavior. Because no one had bothered to try when they were younger.
08/19/09
The school did nothing even when I complained and I never told my parents because I figure the school would not listen to them either *I know, kids can be kinda dumb) and the girls would just get worse.
Daily bullying wears you down, ruins your self-worth and makes you, the victim, begin to wonder if what they are saying is right.
Kids kill themselves because of bullying.
There is NOTHING good about bullying and schools that know it is going on and do nothing should be held accountable.
Even at 46 I still can remember how it felt and know that some of the self-worth issues of my teen and twenties are rooted in the daily emotional abuse I recived at the hands of those girls.
08/19/09
So the kids who bullied her would be liable for causing her to develop anorexia, even if they didn't know she was predisposed to it and only intended to embarrass her for an afternoon. To the extent that the school is vicariously liable for its students, then, the school could be liable for her anorexia.
ETA: annnnnnd I see someone else beat me to it downthread....
08/19/09
I feel like part of the educational experience of schools is to give kids a taste of what the real world is honestly like. I wonder how much the stress of living with an overbearing parent or other family situation contributed.
In my personal experience, ED is just a way to express feeling some sort of stress.
08/19/09
No one thing causes an ED, but many things contribute to it. Including abuse, by the way, which bullying can be.
I find your idea that "survival of the fittest" is what this is about troubling, though. Bullying can be mild to severe. And just because the real world is tough doesn't mean we should tolerate it when children abuse other children.
Bullying makes you feel helpless, alone, afraid, and untrusting. It destroys self worth and can lead to depression, anxiety, and other problems. Some people may be able to get past that on their own, but many aren't. Because when you're a child you're just starting to form your idea of who you are. And some of that comes from how you're treated by others. Acting as though the victim is the person at fault just leads to excusing the behavior.
And just for the record, bullying is a form of systematic abuse. Being called a name once is painful, but it's not the same as being relentlessly targeted every day.
08/19/09
08/19/09
Anyway, I feel really bad for that girl, but I'm not sure a lawsuit is the right solution. But then, maybe it will have a good effect in bringing these issues to light in that school.
08/19/09
08/19/09
I still think what happened to him was absolutely wrong and he did not deserve it. I know that bullying can turn people into bullies, and I definitely think that was part of the reason he was aggressive himself. It was just frustrating to see absolutely none of this mentioned in the coverage of this.
The school officials do try to stop bullying and if there was any blaming the victim here it was from the students (which I do not agree with and which all our teachers tried to stop). I personally never experienced or witnessed any bullying at the school, which doesn't mean it didn't happen, but all the reports from the media made it sound like a hellhole. Most of the events actually happened outside of the school or in the school he had just moved up from, anyway.
Sorry, that was long. I really don't blame him and I think what happened to him was wrong. It was just frustrating for everyone involved.
08/19/09
08/19/09
08/19/09