twihards - Jezebel

posts about #twihards more →
Twilight's Hero Is Abusive, Which Makes Him All The More Romantic
Random Dude Bites Girl At New Moon Screening
Taylor Lautner Breaks Down Three Types Of Twihards
New Moon Breaks Records; Amy Proposes To Blake
Fake Your Way Into Twilight Fandom: A Guide To Surviving A Sparkly Vampire World
Taylor Lautner And His Army Of Woo Girls Blow Edward Cullen Off The Stage
Critics Say New Moon, Twihards Suck
“...I Had More Sex When I Was Reading Twilight Than In The Entire Few Months Before”
What Do People Want From Stephenie Meyer?
The Jacob Black Barbie Doll Is Here To Make Everyone Slightly Uncomfortable

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JinxyMcDeath
03:09 PM

In reply to Twilight's Hero Is Abusive, Which Makes Him All The More Romantic
Which reminds me of Glenn Howerton's tweet about how everyone is commenting about the D.E.N.N.I.S. system being applicable to Twilight - [twitter.com]
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OneTwoPunch
02:59 PM

In reply to Twilight's Hero Is Abusive, Which Makes Him All The More Romantic
Petty sulking teenagers with no sex. Yeah, great storyline.

Phhht!
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KATE!
02:55 PM

In reply to Twilight's Hero Is Abusive, Which Makes Him All The More Romantic
hey lets be fair, its not suicide if you're already dead!
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morninggloria
02:44 PM

In reply to Twilight's Hero Is Abusive, Which Makes Him All The More Romantic
I'm busy writing the next blockbuster young adult romance novel. It's about a great white shark who falls in love with a seal. And then... after four books... he eats her! Here's the first paragraph:

"I'm hungry, look at that seal. But I love that seal. I'm hungry. That seal looks delicious. But I love that seal! I'm hungry. Look at that delicious seal. OMG I LOVE THAT SEAL!"

The second book's first paragraph:
"That creepy shark has been following me around. He's sort of hot. Stop following me, handsome! Why is he following me? Is he going to eat me? I think I'm in love with him."
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Alohamaid
02:51 PM

@morninggloria: my love - my lunch -my love - my lunch- my love - my lunch
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tiredfairy
02:44 PM

In reply to Twilight's Hero Is Abusive, Which Makes Him All The More Romantic
Ugh, Pretty Woman. What a horribly paternalistic movie that is. I don't know how anyone can find it romantic. Classist? Sure. Infantilizing to women? Definitely. Creepy? Yes. Romantic? No. That and the obsessive behavior=love trope is one I understand is popular and clearly pervasive...I guess I'm just always curious about why.

I do like some overwrought romance sometimes myself, if only because real life is not really that...epic. Which is partly what I think is appealing about tragic love stories. The intensity. Normal life doesn't, and shouldn't, have that. Because we'd combust if it was like that 24/7.

I suppose young love is so appealing for that reason, too. Because it's new and full of firsts. Because the longer you spend with someone, the more that mellows. Not because you love them any less, but because you can't keep up that level of intensity all the time. And I think we miss that as we get older and try to recapture it when we can, including in our fiction.

Oddly, I'd have less of a problem with some of this if the heroine was less passive. There's a reason Buffy keeps getting brought up in these discussions, and not just for the vamp connection. I find her more appealing because she doesn't need to be rescued. I just don't find that engaging as an audience/reader now that I'm older...and didn't much when I was younger, either. I want to identify with the heroic, not the damsel in distress. But I recognize that may not be true for a lot of other women.
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AllieCaulfield
02:51 PM

@tiredfairy: "Pretty Woman" is one of the most vile films. I still marvel at its success.
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la.donna.pietra
03:10 PM

@AllieCaulfield: Personally, I still marvel at how many slumber parties I saw it at between ages 11-13.
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shoroko
02:40 PM

In reply to Twilight's Hero Is Abusive, Which Makes Him All The More Romantic
I'd again say that there's a difference between portraying unhealthy relationships in fiction, and portraying them as though they were healthy and ideal. But honestly, I'm not that into romance and so am not that familiar with... well, a lot of recent teen/youth romantic drama. But Romeo and Juliet? It was my understanding that the whole point of the play was as a critique of that kind of youthful, impulsive behavior and melodramatic 'us-against-the-world' mindset. Romeo and Juliet's relationship isn't really some idealized depiction of love at all; it's more like a cautionary tale.
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bluebears
02:42 PM

@shoroko: agreed.
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jigglyball
03:19 PM

@shoroko: Yeah, Heathcliff and Catherine definitely weren't held up as relationship role models. Emily Bronte makes sure we see the death and destruction of themselves and their family.

Meyer's like, la, la, la, it'll all be FINE.**

** I haven't actually read Twilight. But I kind of feel like I have.
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mepo - Robert Cornhole invented it
02:33 PM

In reply to Twilight's Hero Is Abusive, Which Makes Him All The More Romantic
Well he doesn't actually threaten to commit suicide. He believes that she has committed suicide by jumping off a cliff, blaming himself he then goes for the death by volturi route. It's a very poor attempt at appropriating themes of love and destruction from Romeo and Juliet.

I'd be more ashamed that I knew that if I hadn't just written an article on it.
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la.donna.pietra
02:32 PM

In reply to Twilight's Hero Is Abusive, Which Makes Him All The More Romantic
No, it's romantic because he desires her based on a purely intrinsic quality--how she smells. It's the standard romance-novel trope of "fabulously attractive hero sees something in female protagonist that nobody else does!" Meyer just gives it an explicit supernatural basis; otherwise, the whole series would be yet another badly written Harlequin romance.

Plus side: in a world that says women have to shave, pluck, dye, exfoliate, tone, scrub, perfume, tan, bleach, diet, curl, straighten, be brilliant, make tons of money, have a spotless home, have just the right number of kids at just the right time, and generally be effortlessly perfect--and even then, still be under the constant threat of being traded in for a newer model--the notion of a guy who loves you for something you just *are* and always will be is damn appealing.

Down side: By definition, that makes Bella passive as all hell. It also makes her relationship with Jacob seriously problematic--he likes her because she's funny (to him, at least), hangs out with him, and is really comfortable with him. That means he likes her because of active stuff that she's doing, thereby wrecking the fantasy of effortless love stated above.
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portia_sue
02:30 PM

In reply to Twilight's Hero Is Abusive, Which Makes Him All The More Romantic
I know I might be greyed out for being slightly off topic, but I have to ask: Is commitment phobia, taken to the extreme, abusive? It was mentioned in the post briefly, and this is something I am struggling with right now.

To be short, I have been in an abusive relationship before, with physical, emotional, and mental abuse that was extreme. So I wonder if I am excusing what is going on right now in my life as not so bad, and dismissing it, when really, it's abusive.

For the past year, I have been told over and over that we (boyfriend of over 3 years and I) are going to be getting married. We bought a ring together that is sitting in a drawer because he's never actually proposed. We've discussed the ways we will balance children and work, where we want to live, really big picture things. So I think we are moving in that direction. And yet, at the same time, every few months he has a freak out and takes it all back, says he can't do it, etc. And I cry and feel hurt and betrayed, ask why he was making plans if he was unsure, etc. And the answer is, I'm sorry, and I'll never bring it up again unless I am sure. But it keeps happening. He will bring the topic up, start making plans, and then freak out.

It happened again yesterday, and I'm so tired. I feel like my heart has been jerked around too much, and that it has crossed the line. The worst part is, he knows my history of being abused.

Am I crazy?

(Sorry to ramble. This post hit a nerve.)
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icyblonde
02:34 PM

@portia_sue: Oh, dear. I didn't go through something quite that dramatic, but maybe the junior version of your relationship. I finally dumped him and found wonderful Mr. Icyblonde, who is everything my poor conflicted ex was not. I now see my ex putting his current fiancée through the same garbage. Because I forgave him and stayed friends with him (but knew I could never date him again), I feel weird calling the behavior abusive, and yet... eesh. It sure borders on it, doesn't it?

Time was, I would've recommended an ultimatum but frankly (not knowing anything else about the situation) I think you'd be better off without him. :(
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Oleander
02:40 PM

@portia_sue: I don't think being nervous or getting cold feet about getting married is unusual or abusive. But vacillating between professing undying love and breaking your heart is NOT acceptable. I'm not sure I'd call it abusive, but it doesn't sound like a healthy dynamic. You may need to walk away; he would either be relieved that the pressure is totally off, or become terrified at the very real prospect of losing you and chase after you. I'll bet it'll be the latter. But I think taking a break or leaving him would be good for your mental health in any case.
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InABook
02:42 PM

@portia_sue: It does sound manipulative... and I know I couldn't deal with the uncertainty. I don't think being a commitment phobe in and of itself is abusive, but making plans, then breaking them, and using it as a way to control you is certainly not appropriate, regardless of what it is.
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la.donna.pietra
02:46 PM

@portia_sue: Whether it's abusive or not, it's definitely not cool. You are not crazy.
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Zombie Ms. Skittles
02:47 PM

@portia_sue: Sweetheart, the quick and dirty answer is that if you two are in different places in your lives (and it sounds like you are, you're ready to take it to the next level and he's not) then you need to call it quits. Cut your losses and move on.
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Pleasure
02:50 PM

I think it is some sort of emotional abuse. It's such an extreme lack of consideration for your feelings, it sounds like abuse. And the fact that this post triggered this in you speaks volumes. It really sounds like you'd be better off without him.
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Ri_L
02:51 PM

@portia_sue: I'm sorry, but I have to concur: DTMFA. He's had his chance, he's blown it repeatedly, and you don't need this. You're strong, you're awesome, you're better off without him. And if/when you're up for looking again, there's better out there waiting for you.
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candleflame
02:55 PM

@portia_sue: You're not crazy. And whether this on/off, hot/cold dynamic with your boyfriend meets the technical definition of abuse is beside the point. It's making you miserable. That is an excellent reason to end a relationship.
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portia_sue
02:58 PM

@Ri_L, et all: It's so frustrating! I want to be nice, and understanding, and appreciate that it is hard to commit for some people. I want to dismiss it as a typical cold feet thing, and forgive and move on. But I've been a doormat before, and I don't really like to do it again.

And, there is an ultimatum of sorts already out there: If there is no proposal before he takes a new job in a different city, which should happen around February, then he will move without me. That's the best I could do. And I said I would stay in touch, and maybe he'll miss me and see the light (ie, I was trying to be as gentle and hopeful as possible) but I just feel deflated.

I just wish it hadn't happened right before the holidays. This sucks.
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candleflame
03:10 PM

@portia_sue: I got dumped on my ass right before Christmas last year and it just about destroyed me, and it wasn't even a real relationship! Long story. But anyway, as cliche as this sounds, being on your own is MUCH better than being in a relationship that doesn't work. So, if your relationship ends, you'll be fine. Not right away, but you'll get there. And he'll "see the light" right around the time that you've completely moved on and wouldn't take him back anyway.
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subpolka
03:15 PM

@portia_sue: Last week, I broke up with my boyfriend of four years for dangerously similar reasons. J. kept fluctuating between wanting to be a grown-up in a grown-up relationship - pledging his committment to the Big Picture and such - and wanting to be a 32-year old midlife crisis. It was miserable and exhausting and, love be damned, I finally had to call it quits. It was the single hardest decision that I've ever had to make and, while I know that it's ultimately For The Best, I'm utterly and completely heartbroken. I'm an idealist who always believed that, if you loved someone hard enough, everything else would eventually fall into place, but...yeah. Maybe not so much.

Suffice to say, I'm a bit of a mess at present and ill-equipped to offer any firsthand advice. (Secondhand advice, however? As stated by one of my besties: "If he's not sure that he wants you, then he doesn't deserve you. Period." Quite a punch in the gut for such a simple statement.) Solidarity and sympathy, on the other hand, is yours for the taking.

So, no, you're not crazy. No more than I am. Be good to yourself.
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Grim Reaper of the Forest
03:17 PM

@portia_sue: It sounds like you have your head on straight. Even if it is understandable to have cold feet, it is also understandable to want to have a fiance who is dying to marry you, not one who has to be dragged kicking and screaming to the altar. Even if he is not abusive, he is certainly not appreciating you and putting you through such an emotional roller coaster is pretty selfish.
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portia_sue
03:23 PM

@subpolka: Oh, man. My guy is about to turn 32.

Is this the new mid-life crisis point?

I will try to take your advice, and I love that line.

Good luck. It hurts to be an idealist.
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portia_sue
03:24 PM

@candleflame: If it has to end, I certainly hope I can be strong enough to be the one to do it. And hopefully move on and be happy, too.
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bluebears
02:26 PM

In reply to Twilight's Hero Is Abusive, Which Makes Him All The More Romantic
Plus couldn't we make a lot of the same arguments about Buffy and Angel?
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EndangeredRed
02:31 PM

@bluebears: Or Buffy and SPIKE. Gosh. I am Team Spike all the way, but boy did they ever ruin that story line. This discussion has been going on forever at I09 , too.
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sayah
02:33 PM

@bluebears: but Buffy learns. She doesn't give up her life basicly and stop having friends of her own etc.
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mepo - Robert Cornhole invented it
02:33 PM

@bluebears: Or at least Spike!
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bluebears
02:34 PM

@EndangeredRed: see I stopped watching the show after the whole Dawn season so I never really saw the Buffy/Spike relationship dynamic.
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icyblonde
02:35 PM

@bluebears: And Buffy and Spike, too. And probably worse, really.

Buffy and Riley was not very healthy, either.
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bluebears
02:37 PM

@sayah: I guess. She gets back with him after he turns lunatic and starts trying to kill her friends because he "wasn't himself" a-hem. I'm not saying it was an allegory for an abusive relationship I just think, like Dodai noted, a lot of love stories are tortured and star-crossed and would be unhealthy if they were reality.
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bluebears
02:37 PM

@icyblonde: so true. She was always trying to be less "Buffy" with him to make him feel better about himself.
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Alohamaid
02:38 PM

@bluebears: how? angel was a pretty good BF and when he went evil she killed him. Buffy ain't playin' that shit.
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bluebears
02:39 PM

@Alohamaid: before he was evil he seemed to do a lot of creepy stalking type behavior under the guise of "protecting" her, etc
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rah29
02:41 PM

@bluebears: I may be getting wayyyy too philosophical about my beloved Buffy here, but I think the way Buffy/Angel was handled over the arc of the entire story was markedly different. That relationship was dark and stormy and terrifying, and that's why it was such a good metaphor for the teenage love described above. He literally becomes a different person after sex. She actually has to kill him. He comes back and goes away 'for her sake' and she's devastated, for a while. But I think Buffy herself took that forward and grew from it (in fact you could argue she went too far in the other direction with Riley, and when things got torrid and scary she shut down on him). After all, Angel comes back at the end, the great love of her life, and Buffy gives that awkward cookie speech, which is basically like, I don't know who I am yet and I can't be with someone while I'm trying to figure myself out, so thanks but no thanks.
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Alohamaid
02:41 PM

@bluebears: well at least Buffy was in actual danger from outside forces, Edward...just watches her and tries not to eat her. Waaaaaay creepier.
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sayah
02:41 PM

@bluebears: Totally, the second season is full of it. I got weirded out when I saw it again recently.
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EndangeredRed
02:43 PM

@bluebears: Oh, you should totally go back and finish it now that you have had some space and time to get over the Dawn issue. Season 6 can be kind of brilliant.
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rah29
02:45 PM

@bluebears: Though I have to add, I think one of the really interesting things about the season 2 arc is how the things that would seem cute are twisted to be horrible and evil. A lot of Angelus' behaviours are basically creepy stalker boyfriend--I'm thinking especially of how he draws pictures of her and her family and friends while they're asleep.
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bluebears
02:46 PM

@sayah: me too! I remember loving it when I was 19-20 and re-watching it recently all, ick.

eta: maybe I was younger actually. when was that show on?
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Edited by bluebears at 11/30/09 2:50 PM bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred

bluebears
02:48 PM

@EndangeredRed: noted :) I just run hot and cold on shows like that. I get burned out.
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vulcanized
02:48 PM

@bluebears: I think Buffy and Spike are more problematic. Buffy and Angel don't bother me so much, as even though Angel did exhibit some creepy behavior, when he became physically abusive (and killed Jenny Calendar), she killed the shit out of him and sent him to hell. It was actually a decent allegory for domestic violence - she didn't want to kill him and tried to save him because she recognized the man she loved in him, but at the same time, she wasn't going to allow herself or her friends to be victimized any further.
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rah29
02:48 PM

@bluebears: Definitely re: Riley. But isn't that why the relationship doesn't last? It's presented as a huge problem--she's too much for him, he feels resented and weak, she resents him for feeling weak, so he runs off. It's certainly not a healthy relationship once it goes sour, but unlike in Twilight, the characters realise that and the relationship ends. It's not like they get married and live unhappily ever after!
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bluebears
02:49 PM

@vulcanized: right but then he came back from hell all "good" and even if she never officially got back together with him (or did she?) she certainly let him back into her life and made it clear she still loved him.
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bluebears
02:54 PM

@rah29: yeah maybe, I have not read Twilight or seen the end of the Buffy series so I'm taking your word on it. But even if it didn't work out its still presented as uber-romantic. Even a show like Gilmore Girls had issues. I had to stop watching that show because I was a little older when that was on and the Jess character was so awful it made me sick to see the Rory character falling for his bullshit and letting him walk all over her. But that was supposed to be romantic! He was "troubled" and she could see how sensitive he was deep inside. vomit.
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vulcanized
03:02 PM

@bluebears: Well, I guess that's where the branch into willing disbelief happens. They had the plot device of soul/no soul to explain the disparity in his behavior and could make the claim that having a soul again does indeed make him "good" and he had the ability to remain good through his own choices, which he did do.

I don't excuse it, but in some ways, Angel without his soul was like a mentally ill person off his meds - the person is still in there and they do terrible things, but that isn't really "them".

That said, I don't disagree that Buffy had some troubling themes. I just don't think it was as bad as Twilight, nor do I think people were so hopelessly devoted to Buffy as they are to Twilight.
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bluebears
03:04 PM

@vulcanized: agreed but you could say similar, oh Edward is just tortured because of this and that. I don't think its a coincidence that these type of relationships predominate in the fantasy sub-genre, because you can make up all sorts of rationalizations as to why this person is acting like a psycho loon.
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rah29
03:04 PM

@bluebears: Oh my god, I HATED Jess! What an ass!

I agree that it was presented as this really uber-romantic thing, but I think it was basically an allegory of teen love rather than an ideal; the way things really do feel like life or death when you're that age. Plus, the relationship comes to an end because it's not right, which does make it different to the Edward and Bella lovefest where they all live happily ever after. When Buffy gets the chance to resurrect it, she chooses not to because she wants to focus on figuring out her own identity.
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bluebears
03:06 PM

@rah29: true, the Twilight story does seem to stand out because it has that neat, they lived happily ever after ending.
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MerryLilly
02:25 PM

In reply to Twilight's Hero Is Abusive, Which Makes Him All The More Romantic
Edward is no Romeo, that's fo sure
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icyblonde
02:35 PM

@MerryLilly: Edward makes Romeo look effing healthy, methinks.
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Zombie Ms. Skittles
02:53 PM

@icyblonde: I dunno...
"Oh Rosalin! Rosalin!!! How ever could I get over you?!?!!! My one true love!!! Snatched from my...oh hey girl! Why don't you give me a call sometime? The name's Romeo, but you can call me R-Money. How 'bouts I sneak up your trellis sometime and we get this party started! Damn, girl...why your momma gotta be hooking you up with that Paris guy? Let's get married! Then I'll finally tap that fine a...seal our commitment! Oh cheeseits, your daddy's gonna kill me! Quick, ESCAPE! Awww man she's dead? Fuck that noise, time to poison myself!"
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portia_sue
03:06 PM

@Zombie Ms. Skittles: Best summary ever!
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Zombie Ms. Skittles
03:12 PM

@portia_sue: Poison: The manly way out!
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portia_sue
03:20 PM

@Zombie Ms. Skittles: Yeah, her happy dagger was much cooler. And more gangsta.
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vulcanized
02:22 PM

In reply to Twilight's Hero Is Abusive, Which Makes Him All The More Romantic
They posted this on io9 the other day and the comments were quickly inundated by pink commentors claiming "You aren't reading the work as a whole! He only does that stuff because he loves her so much!" It's simultaneously hilarious and deeply troubling.
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Flackette Goes Retro
02:21 PM

In reply to Twilight's Hero Is Abusive, Which Makes Him All The More Romantic
You know, I was into this kind of melodrama when I was a teen, but I mostly grew out of it (a quick, intense relationship with an emotionally unstable, controlling asshat in my early 20s convinced me that brooding idiots were not really the way to go). I like to think that most people outgrow this paradigm, hopefully without getting hurt too badly along the way. Sadly, I know a lot of grown adults who still think jealousy, controlling and possessiveness are still hawt. I despair for them.
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CupcakeMonster
02:53 PM

@Flackette Goes Retro: Ok, but here's the thing. Ive only seen the first movie, but Edward is NOT ACTUALLY A TEENAGER, right? He's not a kid. He's been alive for 100 years. So, doesn't that make it all the more messed up? He's a brooding idiot adult, who should have grown out of this about 70 years ago. Of course he can manipulate an actual 17yr old.

And why is he bothering to go to school anyway?
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Flackette Goes Retro
03:02 PM

@CupcakeMonster: Honestly - this has bothered me for a while. He is clearly an ancient old man, trapped in a teen body. So that alone makes this relationship questionable. And, as my boyfriend pointed out last week, it's pretty skeezy that he is like 100+ years old and hanging out at high school (why? to pick up chicks?).
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SpicyTamale is a GA peach
02:16 PM

In reply to Twilight's Hero Is Abusive, Which Makes Him All The More Romantic
Did he really threaten to commit suicide? He thought she was dead. He said something to the effect of about not wanting to live in a world without her. But i dont recall ever saying he would die if she ever left him. He's always the one breaking up with her.
who the fuck cares? Its a vampire!

My bff talks WAY too much about this and somehow the info gets retained in my head.

Let's start our next obsession? The Werewolf with Benicio Del Toro!
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thecameralovesyou
02:23 PM

@SpicyTamale is a GA peach: This is embarassing that I know enough to explain, but he basically said that when he thought she had died, he was going to kill himself. Not if she broke up with him. Which is a bit different but still....

And now I'm going to go hang my head in shame.
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la.donna.pietra
02:15 PM

In reply to Twilight's Hero Is Abusive, Which Makes Him All The More Romantic
Obsessive teenage love isn't healthy. However, for a lot of people, it's a necessary phase to go through in order to recognize what a genuine, loving relationship actually is. It doesn't mean thinking about the other person with every waking breath. It doesn't mean calling them 78534 times a day and driving their moms bonkers. It doesn't mean the soul-sucking terror implicit in OMIGOD BEING ALONE. It takes a while--and one or two intense relationships, and approximately the Cure's entire back catalog--to figure out that really, it means being comfortable and happy with another person at least 95% of the time.

Obviously, some people don't ever get past relationships like this (paging Heathcliff!) and spend the rest of their lives convinced that true love means being bonkers and irrational. Not all of them are Twilight fans, either.
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Edited by la.donna.pietra at 11/30/09 2:16 PM la.donna.pietra was starred la.donna.pietra was unstarred

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