So we do know.

Secondly, I'm not sure why it doesn't seem clear cut. If your roommate (a man) took a woman home, and you opened the door to his room and saw them having sex, would you and your ten friends assume that you were suddenly invited? i doubt it. Why is it somehow reasonable that Firman and Johns' teammates suddenly decided that they were invited?

If you and your ten (male in this scenario) friends entered through the window and surrounded this naked woman who had previously just been with your flatmate, would you interpret her tears or look of terror as consent? i doubt it.

would you wait for to say specifically "i do not consent!" or would you think hmm. i was not invited to this little menage a deux in the first place. there is no indication that i am wanted. there is no evidence that sex with me is something that she had initiated, asked for, or indicated an interest in. however, rather than assuming the burden is on me to figure all this out, i'll put the burden on her to say "no" while she's in the middle of being gang-raped by me and my nine friends!

i doubt it. i don't know (or hope i don't know) anyone who would make the above assumptions. i find them unreasonable. i think most people would. but suddenly, with the NZ rugby team, these assumptions are reasonable?

 Reply

Men are not incapable of looking at their partner's face and seeing terror. Men are not incapable of reading signs of arousal and enjoyment.

 Reply

How do you feel about women that fantasize/enjoy the same events??

 Reply

There is a big difference between a rape fantasy game and actually raping someone.

I don't think the majority of men fantasize about sex with an actual unwilling partner and sex with an actual unwilling partner is a crime no matter what fantasies you have. I wonder if some men don't even stop to consider if a woman is willing in a situation like this or if they're just thinking about their teammates and notches on their bedposts.

But considering the only other post I've seen from you is one saying how Playboy is serious journalism and the fact that your avatar is an ass, I have a feeling you're just trying to stir up trouble.

 Reply

I have a feeling that your views of sexuality are skewed by your own experiences which is fine and I would don't judge your sexuality, but I would strongly recommend you have conversations with consenting adults that are outside of the vanilla lifestyle.

It is very easy for someone to assume that a woman getting ganbanged is into it, especially if she entered the situation willingly. I don't know if you have ever a. been involved in a gangbang, or b. witnessed a woman involved in one in real life, but it is very hard to tell if it is consenting because quite often submission and humiliation is part of the act. I for one know can think of at least 5 women off the top of my head that if presented by a group of Rugby players would take them all on in a heartbeat.

If she was forcibly dragged into the situation that is a whole other ball of wax, but my point is that it is very possible for the male participants to be part of something unbeknown to them.

oh, and I have commented on other articles, on all of the gawker sites, and my avatar is a pic of me, should i jump to conclusions that you choose to hide behind the image of venus??

 Reply

From what we know, she didn't sign up for a gangbang. So I don't think what people want in a gangbang is really relevant, someone should have checked with her. It isn't enough to say "Well the girls the rugby team previously gangbanged liked the humiliation aspect, that's part of the whole gangbang thing." To walk in on a woman and a man (according to the reporter who interviewed her upthread) and assume she's up for a gangbang isn't reasonable.

I think you're the one who is assuming based on your own lifestyle. Just because you know people who would be totally fine with 10 guys joining in doesn't change the fact that its pretty basic etiquette to check in with a woman you don't know having sex with one man before jerking off on her face for some sign that she's down. This wasn't a sex club, they didn't know she was into group sex. The default position isn't yes.

 Reply

I would imagine that Clare is not alone in this. There are many women who for whatever reason are unable to verbally or physically ward off their attackers, I don't see how this correlates at all to prior consent.

As for the question "How were they supposed to know?" Well, since they were not in the room or party to the initiation of the consensual sex, then maybe they should have thought to at very least ask first. Although how valuable that would be is up to debate as I am sure a half dozen burly rugby players looking for sex might be a tad intimidating. The actions of her rapists suggest to me that they presumed themselves entitled to that which their teammates were participating in without asking, if not as Ginmar Rienne has suggested, following through on a premeditated sexual assault.

 Reply

Hope that helps.

 Reply

But until you have been in that situation, until you have been physically and mentally overpowered, until you fear for your very life unless you submit, until you have been betrayed to the core by someone you were supposed to trust, maybe even love? Shut up, please. I say this with a lot of love, but honestly, I am so sick of hearing how survivors of sexual assault could have done things differently.

Yeah, we could all do things differently. Some people get harsher lessons than others. I got a really, really harsh lesson once upon a time, and I am paying the price. So I'm taking your comment really personally, and I apologize if I'm out of line.

Also, getting consent--real, conscious, consenting consent--is actually easy. Make it a part of foreplay. "Do you like that? Does that feel good? I want to [X] now, how do you feel about that?" Sexy and simple.

 Reply

It's been stated already that consent is not the absence of no, it's the presence of yes. But I'm bothered by your statement that if you hadn't made some kind of fuss, you wouldn't be comfortable saying you were raped. What you're saying is that "If you engage in Behavior X, there may be people who want to do criminal things to you, and if and only if you engage in Behavior Y can you say that those things are actually criminal." Sub in whatever you want for Behaviors X and Y, but what you're saying is that non-consentual sex is only criminal under certain circumstances.

Personally, I can only think of one situation in which this is okay--consentual BDSM relationships. So, you can consent to be assaulted, you can consent to have sex sprung on you at any time.

Let's back it up one step further and say this instead: "If you are in a situation in which you are about the be the victim of a crime, and you do not engage in Behavior Z, you are personally responsible for the criminal actions of other autonomous human beings." In what situations does that apply?

 Reply

Furthermore, it's totally reasonable to expect people to get consent. No one's suggesting you stop and ask for consent in those words. But good sex involves communication. It's totally reasonable to expect men to say, "What do you want me to do? Do you like that?" or to not go forward if a woman isn't saying, "Oh, I like that, yeah, put your hands there."

Also, you should read this: [iamnotacake.wordpress.com]

 Reply

In this case, no I don't think there was much she could have done. But if she didn't TRY to say no because she was afraid, if she didn't try to phrase it in a way that would keep them from getting violent, if she didn't give ANY cues whatsoever that she was not OK with what has happening, how are they supposed to know that she wasn't OK with it? Good sex might be about good communication, but sometimes people just have bad drunken sex for the sake of having sex and, trust me, there's a lot of sex that goes on without much communication whatsoever.

I just think this is the type of situation where nobody wins. I mean, I get both sides and I agree that both of them made mistakes. If these rugby guys did this with intent, I hope they get put away for life. But this could be a simple case of lack of communication on either side and I hate to just call that cut-and-dry rape just because the woman was afraid for her life, on no other grounds other than the fact that they were large men. Especially because I didn't see where she says she was afraid for her life. She said she was in shock and felt worthless.

I don't know - I think this isn't the place or the time or the topic for an easy discussion. I have too many thoughts on the subject, some of them controversial and some of them completely in line with the rest of you, and some of them even a little bit contradictory to some of the other thoughts I'm having. But I'm not an asshole and I'm not a victim-blamer...I'm just trying to see both sides. Maybe that makes me a wishy-washy fence sitter but so be it. I guess there's a reason why it's innocent until proven guilty.

 Reply

Furthermore, there are no choices that a woman can make that will save her from being raped! Women are raped in their homes and on the street, by men they know and by strangers, while sober and while drunk, in a hijab and in a miniskirt. What do you suggest women do to avoid being raped, exactly? I'd love to know what this secret is that we've all been missing for ALL OF HISTORY.

You keep saying you're not an asshole and you're not a victim-blamer. But you know, by saying that this woman's rape was "a simple case of lack of communication on either side" and that "both of them made mistakes", you ARE blaming the victim, and you're also being an asshole. And with that, I am done with you.

 Reply

I don't know about you but I don't come from a society that teaches that it is 100% a woman's responsibility to avoid rape and men have no choice in the matter. I come from a society where, if a man rapes a woman, it is completely and wholly his responsibility. I grew up in two households, one consisting of a single mother and a sister and the other consisting of an asshole father (we're now estranged), a stepmother, and another sister. I completely understood, from the time I was a small boy, that you do not force yourself on somebody without their consent.

BUT I also think that the world is a complex place and that things happen sometimes, like in this case, where things aren't entirely simple and all the facts aren't clear from one or two news articles. And I think it's unfair to both genders to automatically label men as the rapists and women as innocent victims without incontrovertible fact. Rape may ruin a woman's life but being accused of rape, even if he's not convicted, can ruin a man's life too. And I think, judging SOLELY on what I've read on Jezebel, that this NOT black and white situation tells me that both sides made mistakes. That doesn't mean I think the victim deserved to be raped, or even that she could've stopped them from raping her. But I do think she made mistakes. And why is it not OK to say that? Why am I an asshole for saying that this woman ignored red flags (as @limber stated previously), seemingly (based on jezebel's articles) did not express her lack of consent and that maybe (MAYBE...not definitely) this happened because both parties were drunk and stupid and they didn't communicate properly? Why is it automatically Evil Men vs. Poor Innocent Woman? Why can't it be Poor Woman (who maybe could've said something, anything, to indicate she wasn't down with that) vs Poor Stupid Men (who probably should've been more attentive - a simple "how you doing, sweetheart?" might've been all she needed to make her feel comfortable saying stop)

I'm sorry you were a victim and I'm sorry there are any victims out there in the world. Rape is a horrid thing. But the world is not made up of absolutes.

 Reply

Your logic here is faulty.

Although I like your desire to talk about what consent is and how meaningful consent can be given/received, some of the comments you're making clearly show that you have never been, nor will you ever be, in such a situation as this girl. Her life has been changed, forever. Post-traumatic stress disorder is forever. It's a chronic condition. I can tell you horror stories of kicking loving boyfriends in the guts, of weeks upon weeks of insomnia, or hallucinations in my own apartment.

To say that her life has been ruined is an argument in and of itself, but to compare the effects on her to the effects on the men is laughable.

 Reply

I know exactly where you're coming from, I hear it all the time. You're coming from a place of rape apology. And that is why it is not worth presenting arguments to you, because you have ignored them all already in favor of continuing to try to pin responsibility on this woman for her vicious attack by ten men, which makes you a rape apologist, plain and simple.

 Reply