OK, here's my take, as a budding mental health professional...
In addition to what you fabulous ladies have mentioned, I think positive self-talk gets a bad rap because of the way it has been portrayed in the media (as do most things, huh?).
I really think it's less important to do affirmations than it is to learn about and be able to identify the NEGATIVE thought patterns and self-talk you use. Beck has a great list of cognitive distortions that are extremely common; here's a link (can we link?):
For example, I know that I tend to be a catastrophizer. No matter what the likelihood, my mind tends to jump to the worst case scenario. It's not that my boyfriend forgot to text me back, it's that he must be dead on the street somewhere!
So in that situation, because I have identified my distorted thinking, I don't replace it with a positive BS affirmation that I know isn't true; instead I replace it with a dose of reality.
Positive self-talk alone does zilch for your self-esteem. But hey, no one aspect of therapy or mental health will work for everyone. It's a process.
@WantToTouchtheWahine: BINGO! People should definitely emphasize challenging thoughts and replacing thought patterns. I'm a catastrophizer too and challenging my thoughts (whether it is internal or someone is externally helping me) works 300 times more than someone telling me that I'm awesome and that nothing will ever happen to me because I'm too cool/awesome/self-assured/great/confident etc. etc.
I hate to admit this, but I've always thought that positive self talk, as a stand-alone therapy, was for the stupid. If you have internal resources at all, you probably already know to a greater degree than empty affirmations can state, what's happening with you. And without some kind of external validation, you can come dangerously close to just lying to yourself. I'm not against giving myself pep talks, but I'm also not telling myself anything that isn't to some degree empirically true. No, I'm not the planet's most successful person. I don't know everything. I'm not friends with everyone. I'm not universally lovable. But I will say to myself, "I've handled situations like this before and been okay," "I have failed before and it wasn't the end of the world," "This too shall pass," and "People will care if I'm gone."
I found that a lot of things got easier when I stopped wanting people to like me and instead started wanting them to respect me, particularly if I knew I'd done my best for them and was satisfied with the quality of my work. It enables me to walk away from certain situations if I know I've done my best and the other person refuses to be pleased or communicate better what they want or need. If I needed them to like me, it'd throw me into a funk for sure. I know someone who is constantly on the verge of suicide because of how much people around her do or don't love her. She seems to have no mechanism for loving herself based on what she does and how she feels about it. It is a terribly difficult and volatile way to live.
@TheFormerJuneBronson: Anyone who bases their self-worth on who they see reflected back from someone else's' eyes is mentally unstable, in my experience. Having no sense of sense in adulthood is a sign that someone is suffering from a serious psychosis. That's a very dangerous person to be around.
I feel for you, and hope you don't get entangled into enabling someone who has no core. They are "black holes" of need, and whatever yo give or provide for them will never be enough, because no human can exist functionally without be self-sustaining. I hope you referred your friend to a mental health care professional immediately, if they are not currently under a doctors' care.
@OneTwoPunch: Whoa, that's quite the logical leap. Yes, someone who is suicidal does need the help of mental health professionals. However, this doesn't mean that they are psychotic, or dangerous.
Associating suicidality with dangerousness to others and psychotic symptoms is not only wrong, it's reinforcing of the stigma around mental health.
I get what you were getting at, but that's quite the strong wording.
@WantToTouchtheWahine: Suicide is a strong word. Ever know someone who lost someone to mental illness and suicide? Ask them if my words are "too strong". The damage done to people who love and/or are related to suicides is life-long and scarring. It is very selfish and a dangerous situation that should be acted on immediately.
I could give a hoot about being seen as politically correct. "Reinforcing a stigma" is code for "I don't agree so I will hurl an accusation at you to shut you down". It's up there with "You're judgemental!" It's ineffective and only serves to stop a dialogue or conversation.
@OneTwoPunch: She's an internet acquaintance of some years' standing, and has long since refused mental health care. I expect to hear of her suicide just about every day, and do my best not to enable her, since I suspect she enjoys her misery and wouldn't know how else to be. Fortunately, beyond LJ posts and Facebook updates, I never have to interact with her. We have no IRL ties.
I'm glad you don't want me to get entangled, but bristle a little that you assume I'm that naive. Not everyone who knows someone unstable is either naive or an enabler. She just has not been sufficiently toxic to me to cut her off. I'm okay with her existing in my life. When I'm not, she'll go. I've done it before, with people who were closer to me. Don't fret; I'm fine.
@WantToTouchtheWahine: There have been a few comments here that I felt really tread the line between healthy and uncaring. I'm reluctant to state just what that line is, since I think it's more of an art than a science, but I've also been disliked for being insufficiently positive, and am sensitive to the distinction between being a psychotic vortex of need and being realistic about oneself. It seems that a lot of people would prefer to see others as worthy or unworthy, rather than fellow travelers who require x or y amount of involvement, depending on one's relationship with them. Kindness is not synonymous with weakness or enabling.
@OneTwoPunch: In no way was I inferring you were being judgmental. And yes, I work with people who are suicidal and their loved ones, as well as have experienced it in my own life. I was actually pointing out the fact that a person can be suicidal without being psychotic, and a person can be psychotic without being suicidal. It's the overlapping of terms that bothers me.
Yes, suicidality is extremely selfish. But for many people, it's the only option because of the extreme depression they experience on a daily basis. It's not something they can "snap out of", and they often feel intense guilt based on the pain they know they are causing their loved ones. You and I agree that it is a dangerous situation that should be acted upon immediately.
I wasn't calling you out for being politically incorrect in the slightest, nor would I want to shut you down, as I think it's a completely valid response to TheFormerJuneBronson. I just think it's worthwhile to also point out that, as someone working constantly to reduce the idea that mentally ill = crazy, psychotic, easily curable, intentionally selfish, etc., that it's a multifaceted issue and not every suicidal person will share the experience of every other.
@TheFormerJuneBronson: I am fully, 100% in agreement with you. The idea that someone would not warrant my help because he/she was too needy goes against my grain as well. Kudos for your realism.
I think that only works if you negate your negative thought with something positive, that you actually believe . When I fuck something up I don't go all like 'oh but I'm smart and wonderful and this will all work out.' I say 'fucking up is intrinsic to science and I'm better at things I've done a lot.'
@ablative: I wouldn't call it "fishing" so much as "Big Game Hunting." There is little ambiguity in my goal. I don't feel accomplished until I see fear in their eyes as they stutter out "A-A, you're just swell!"
My mom's side of the family is totally into excessive praise. It weirds me out. No, I do NOT look stunningly fabulous in my Christmas-at-Grandma's sweater, and you do not have to swoon with pride when I, say, get a job.
@clairedeloony: My husband's family is like this. He's terribly spoiled because of it. If I suggest that he is in any way not perfect, they act like I just killed their dog.
@toastandlove: Here in the UK we are much more nuanced. We drink so we can feel feelings. See, we can't feel feelings in normal life because that would be vulgar. But at 4am after a bottle of whiskey it's ok to have a brief, restrained conversation about feelings which must never be mentioned again.
@greengrey (raidersofthelostSTAR):You can always drink until you uncover some latent alcoholism gene and have the negative talk get louder and more slurred.
"Positive" talk makes me feel like a doof, because it's fake. I've found it's much better to put myself in perspective. Like, "hey, you hate your job, but at least you have one."
@Penny: Oh, Lord. I repeat that exact sentence to myself daily. Followed by, "And there are thousands of unemployed people who would kill to have your job. Plus, you only have to do it for one more year before you get to go back to graduate school" Welcome to my personal pep talk.
This is similar to why I've always thought the "you get a trophy just for showing up" theory of instilling good self-esteem in kids was troublesome. Getting something - be it excessive praise, a generic compliment, or a token trophy - that you sense you haven't really earned doesn't feel good and, if this study is sound, may actually be counterproductive.
@tallgirl-in-heels: My parents raised me with the idea that "you WILL NOT get rewarded for doing what you're supposed to do". If something was bad? My fault. Something was good? Nothing was said.
@greengrey (raidersofthelostSTAR): We had similar parents. What always surprised me was how my cousin got paid for good grades. In chez Maybe, it was expected: you're capable of good grades, therefore you will work to earn them. End of story.
@greengrey (raidersofthelostSTAR): @maybeimamazed02: My parents were the same way. And now? I do not fall the fuck apart anytime someone criticizes me or I discover I am not great at something
@tallgirl-in-heels: When I was a kid, sometimes those were given out for giving it your best effort. I think there's a big difference between just showing up and getting a trophy, and getting one because even though you aren't the best, you really gave it your all--and sometimes that effort means a lot more than natural ability or talent.
Or at least that's what I tell my horrible-at-gym former self. I knew I wasn't the fastest runner, but sometimes it was nice to have someone notice that I was still doing my best. Yeah, it's supposed to be fun in and of itself, and it was--but sometimes getting that trophy was nice, and I always felt like I earned it.
@HuggaWugga: I think that's a little different--and you're right, having real effort recognized can be a good thing. My ninth-grade gym teacher gave A's if he could tell you were trying. If you just showed up and stood there, forget it, but I liked that he understood not everyone was a natural athlete.
07/08/09
Actually, kind of shockingly effective.
07/08/09
Because let's be honest, we all know we're downright unlovable sometimes. For instance, whenever I have imbibed Jack Daniels.
07/08/09
In addition to what you fabulous ladies have mentioned, I think positive self-talk gets a bad rap because of the way it has been portrayed in the media (as do most things, huh?).
I really think it's less important to do affirmations than it is to learn about and be able to identify the NEGATIVE thought patterns and self-talk you use. Beck has a great list of cognitive distortions that are extremely common; here's a link (can we link?):
[panicdisorder.about.com]
For example, I know that I tend to be a catastrophizer. No matter what the likelihood, my mind tends to jump to the worst case scenario. It's not that my boyfriend forgot to text me back, it's that he must be dead on the street somewhere!
So in that situation, because I have identified my distorted thinking, I don't replace it with a positive BS affirmation that I know isn't true; instead I replace it with a dose of reality.
Positive self-talk alone does zilch for your self-esteem. But hey, no one aspect of therapy or mental health will work for everyone. It's a process.
/end soapboxy moment
07/08/09
07/08/09
I found that a lot of things got easier when I stopped wanting people to like me and instead started wanting them to respect me, particularly if I knew I'd done my best for them and was satisfied with the quality of my work. It enables me to walk away from certain situations if I know I've done my best and the other person refuses to be pleased or communicate better what they want or need. If I needed them to like me, it'd throw me into a funk for sure. I know someone who is constantly on the verge of suicide because of how much people around her do or don't love her. She seems to have no mechanism for loving herself based on what she does and how she feels about it. It is a terribly difficult and volatile way to live.
07/08/09
I feel for you, and hope you don't get entangled into enabling someone who has no core. They are "black holes" of need, and whatever yo give or provide for them will never be enough, because no human can exist functionally without be self-sustaining. I hope you referred your friend to a mental health care professional immediately, if they are not currently under a doctors' care.
07/08/09
Associating suicidality with dangerousness to others and psychotic symptoms is not only wrong, it's reinforcing of the stigma around mental health.
I get what you were getting at, but that's quite the strong wording.
07/08/09
I could give a hoot about being seen as politically correct. "Reinforcing a stigma" is code for "I don't agree so I will hurl an accusation at you to shut you down". It's up there with "You're judgemental!" It's ineffective and only serves to stop a dialogue or conversation.
Doesn't work on this old bird ;)
07/08/09
I'm glad you don't want me to get entangled, but bristle a little that you assume I'm that naive. Not everyone who knows someone unstable is either naive or an enabler. She just has not been sufficiently toxic to me to cut her off. I'm okay with her existing in my life. When I'm not, she'll go. I've done it before, with people who were closer to me. Don't fret; I'm fine.
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Yes, suicidality is extremely selfish. But for many people, it's the only option because of the extreme depression they experience on a daily basis. It's not something they can "snap out of", and they often feel intense guilt based on the pain they know they are causing their loved ones. You and I agree that it is a dangerous situation that should be acted upon immediately.
I wasn't calling you out for being politically incorrect in the slightest, nor would I want to shut you down, as I think it's a completely valid response to TheFormerJuneBronson. I just think it's worthwhile to also point out that, as someone working constantly to reduce the idea that mentally ill = crazy, psychotic, easily curable, intentionally selfish, etc., that it's a multifaceted issue and not every suicidal person will share the experience of every other.
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Count me in the manipulative bitch group.
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/Debbie Downer
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+ Watch video
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It's why I'm such a sympathetic person.
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Or at least that's what I tell my horrible-at-gym former self. I knew I wasn't the fastest runner, but sometimes it was nice to have someone notice that I was still doing my best. Yeah, it's supposed to be fun in and of itself, and it was--but sometimes getting that trophy was nice, and I always felt like I earned it.
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Netflix streaming through the Xbox is a beautiful, beautiful thing!