"I think people, including the prosecutors in this case, understand Ramkissoon was a victim of this as well."
I don't know how comfortable I am with a statement like this. I don't necessarily disagree, but I also get kinda squicky when a murdered baby and the mom complicit in his death are given the same descriptor. Thoughts?
Keep trying, lady. The last time someone used "But he's going to resurrect!!!" as an excuse, dude took more than 2,000 years (and counting) to come back.
all i can say about this is that i saw a lot of this going on when the 'Family International' (Children of God cult) came to croatia to 'help' refugees after the yugo war in the 90s. there was so much WRONG going on there it's disgusting. they really know how to grab the vulnerable.
Family may be "involuntary" by virtue of blood, but family relationships do not preclude other ones. And it's not like you have to choose suffocating closeness with your family members or having other healthy relationships outside family, with friends, partners etc, as if the two are mutually exclusive. That is much too extreme an assumption. For instance, I am close with my family by virtue of the fact that I do not live with them. When I became an adult, I moved out and onward with my life and we actually became closer. It seems like some deeply flawed logic is at work with this site.
I am a firm believer that family bonds are important and even if the relationship isn't perfect, it is worth trying to maintain. There are those where you might have to cut ties because the relationship is too toxic or genuinely abusive but I think that, generally speaking, shouldn't be your default option if you're not getting along with your parents. Most 18 year-olds have a hard time with their parental relationships. Does that mean they should cut them out entirely (which is a terribly selfish thing to do)? I don't think so. And working to maintain important relationships doesn't impinge on your personal freedom. It makes you a more empathetic, compassionate individual.
In my experience with my boyfriend, his relationship with his sister and his mother have become very trying for him and even detrimental to his well-being. He briefly considered cutting them out of his life before realizing that those relationships were important to him. They were not abusing him or being so poisonous to him that he needed to relinquish them for life. We talked a lot about it and I encouraged him to really think deeply about this before burning those bridges. He is now working to reconnect with both his sister and his mother, despite the fact that it takes work.
@Cerridwen: I should hasten to add, it's not really "selfish" to cut people out, family or otherwise, you are genuinely being abused. Sometimes, you do have to put yourself first. But I generally think that for someone who is just having typical teenager problems with Mom and Dad, it is pretty selfish to up and cut them out of your life. But that is just opinion...
Does this mean that blaming "games" for renegade nerd behavior is done? Cause I was all set to start spinning my WoW disc backwards to look for secret messages. Now what do I have to do, decrypt facebook?
I truly believe there are people who would benefit from cutting off contact with their families, either long or short term, and hope that those who need to do so can find the genuine support they need to do so in whatever combination of real life and online works for them.
*However* the Freedomain Radio stuff *is* scarily cult-like. [freedomainradio.com] Check it out. Whole lot of groupthink going on over there, and that Molyneaux guy comes across as a sinister, controlling crackpot. Red flags everywhere.
@Isi: I just spent an hour or so poking around their website. I can't believe no one on here has said this, but the FDR group sounds cow-suit crazy.
I am not going to judge Mr. Weed's decision or his family life. But, even if it was in his best interest to extricate himself from the family, that does not make FDR not a cult. Most of the discussions on here seem to think that it is a one or the other situation--either he needed to get out or FDR is a cult. It can be both!
I am curious to see what kind of people are involved in this website the most. Are they people with genuine abuse and anguish or are they people whose parents weren't perfect and as soon as they realized that, freaked out and began blaming them for all the woes in their life? I'm leaning towards the latter.
Most of us are focusing on whether Tom has done the right thing for himself and whether this FDR is or is not a cult. But I also think it's worth engaging one of Hortense's original questions-- what does the internet have to do with any of this?
I think the internet is merely a tool for communication, not unlike the printing press or telegraph before it. It's people's INTENTION when putting the mode of communication into practice that needs to be blamed. By displacing blame onto the internet instead of placing it where it really belongs (with Molyneux and her own son) Mrs. Weed is missing the opportunity to get to the root of the problem-- real-world relationships.
@PhillyLass: Without statistics it's hard to say whether the internet is incidental in this story. I mean, sure, young people have always been prey to cults; but I think the alarming thing for parents is that the internet makes it so much easier to find and get drawn into by some angst-ridden teen.
But then, even if you had stats that showed, say, an increase in young cult members mirroring an increase in computer ownership/internet use, you still could not say for sure there was a connection - too many variables, like social/economic trends etc etc.
I guess it all comes down to communicating with your kids. There was one telling detail in the Guardian story when Tom's mum related how family mealtimes had devolved into them all eating separately because of differing work/life timetables, and that the only time she saw her teenage sons was when they ventured out of their rooms to get something from the fridge. I actually think this is huge.
@amowls: Cults are composed of people with minds of their own, that joined of their own free will. It's not about being kidnapped and forced into something; it's about being coaxed in a way that your own mind is what leads you there.
Sort of on-topic - Chuck Palahniuk wrote a brilliant novel about the last remaining member of a cult, called The Survivor. It was before he got boring and formulaic.
@attilathehoney: I think you're right. Although Fight Club is awesome, too. Invisible Monsters was interesting, but I got bored with his schtick (sp?) halfway through Choke. I keep meaning to give his other stuff a try, but I'm not that motivated. He is hilarious and very cool in person, though.
When I saw the question about whether the FDR is a cult, I was like, "Wait, isn't he dead? How can one person be a cult?" I'm still half-asleep.
That said, it sounds very cult-y. A form letter? That's just weird. However, as someone with social anxiety, I find it a lot easier to meet and maintain online relationships than ones in real life, because I'm a thousand times better at written communication than verbal. The Asperger's doesn't help me make friends in real life much, either. I'm online the majority of the day, but I don't really feel like there's any community that consumes my being. This is really the only site that I'm active in.
I grew up in and around a cult. (Not one of the big ones - you've never heard of it.) So I have some experience with these situations, and this sounds pretty cultish.
I've seen firsthand when people (especially in their mid-late teens) are convinced by someone else that their parents are evil and the only way to become free is to break off all ties with them. I wouldn't say that there was exactly a form letter, but I know that these kids were assisted in writing letters to their family explaining why they wouldn't see them anymore.
So, first off, this is nothing specific to the internet but has been happening for ages. Second, although he says he doesn't ask for money, one of the top navigation buttons on the website is "Donate!" I clicked on this and discovered that you HAVE to donate in order to gain access to the private discussion boards. Third, he says that cults don't encourage their members to go to therapy, but in fact there is a whole genre of therapy-based cults. (That's what the one I grew up in was.) I would ask who is doing the therapy here - if it's someone who belongs to FDR, like a guide or mentor or some such, then this is definitely another textbook cult practice, and is probably one of the main ways members are indoctrinated.
Nothing ever changes. This week CNN is all-Jonestown-all-the-time, and although nothing like that ever happened with our little cult, Jonestown both fascinates me and completely freaks me out; I know from personal experience how something can go so much farther than you would have ever thought, so much more quickly, and yet seem completely reasonable (and inevitable) to those on the inside.
@theysaidwhat: It totally can be. That it is state mandated in so many cases really pisses me off. I'm not saying it hasn't helped a lot of people, but it's not the ultimate and only key to overcoming addiction like some would have you believe. SOME people involved get very culty and self righteous about the whole thing.
I needed to be rid of my family a few years back. They were not letting me control or live my life. They were also abusing me and keeping me down. Thanks to my Fiance, she was able to release me of them. I know it sounds bad but sometimes your "family" isn't always the best thing for you.
Now this kid may have something similar going on, so in all honesty who is anybody to judge. Just like nobody would know the hardships I went through, nobody really knows what kind of shitty people his family are/is.
I'm sure though that this Molyneux, might have good intentions. I mean the guy advocates animal rights, anyone who is an advocate to take care of something that can't defend itself from people fucking shooting at it from helicopters, is my hero.
"I'm sure though that this Molyneux, might have good intentions. I mean guy advocates animal rights, anyone who is an advocate to take care of something that can't defend itself from people fucking shooting at it from helicopters, is my hero."
You ARE joking, right?
In Hitler's head, he was doing the right thing, the best thing for the German people - he had good intentions. Good intentions are besides the point. I urge you to spend some time on the FDR website and see for yourself what an idiot he is.
@Diziet_Sma: Hitler was not a vegetarian, though he occasionally said he was. Common misconception, like the idea that Einstein was a theist.
But yeah, treating animals well alone doesn't make someone a good person, and plenty of people have good intentions without actually doing good. Presumably the parents at the Yearning for Zion Ranch who married little girls off to grown men thought they were saving their children's souls when in fact they were committing child abuse.
@Diziet_Sma: ooooh, the hilter was a vegetarian comeback. like i haven't heard that one. hey you know who wasn't a vegetarian? Stalin, and many, many others.
I swear you people and your bullshit hilter comments, he wasn't the only evil person in the world I hope you know. Shit loads of others did bad in the history of the world.
@Diziet_Sma: Well, ALL JOKES ASIDE, I'm not 12. Though I am a vegetarian. So I tend to get a little ticked off when people like you, who love to get off by comparing me with Hitler.
@Monster Chalk: It doesn't offend me, hon. I only used the Hitler example because he is always the first person I think of when anyone talks about 'good intentions' being a defence for outrageous behaviour.
The idea you put forward that someone who is an animal lover cannot also be an asshole was too much of a neat coincidence for me to ignore. I guess I should have realized it's a sore point for vegetarians. I'm not having a go at vegetarians. I was one for years. I respect your choice.
BUT to defend this guy when it appears you have not even read or listened to the kind of crap he's coming out with, does offend me.
This is pretty eerie because I was just reading a story on CNN about a couple who met in Second Life got married and then recently divorced because the woman figured out the man was cheating in Second Life. I hate Second Life; why do you have to live our your dreams on a computer? Why can't you improve your real life?
@LateNightQuesadilla: Oooh that was weird cause the couple MET on second life, moved intogether, got married, then he had an affair in second life, and the wife set a second life detective on him to trial him, then she divorced him in real life (first life?).
@beastybeatsy: Wow. I'm so confused by this summary of the story. But I guess Law and Order SVU will turn it into an episode and catch me up soon enough.
@PhillyLass: They most definitely already did. It concerned Locke's dad from Lost as a really creepy old dude who kidnapped this chick because he was obsessed with her Second Life character, which was a stripper or something. I remember the character's name was Vixy Platinum. It was even more disturbing than those episodes usually are for some reason.
04/01/09
I don't know how comfortable I am with a statement like this. I don't necessarily disagree, but I also get kinda squicky when a murdered baby and the mom complicit in his death are given the same descriptor. Thoughts?
04/01/09
04/01/09
04/01/09
11/15/08
I am a firm believer that family bonds are important and even if the relationship isn't perfect, it is worth trying to maintain. There are those where you might have to cut ties because the relationship is too toxic or genuinely abusive but I think that, generally speaking, shouldn't be your default option if you're not getting along with your parents. Most 18 year-olds have a hard time with their parental relationships. Does that mean they should cut them out entirely (which is a terribly selfish thing to do)? I don't think so. And working to maintain important relationships doesn't impinge on your personal freedom. It makes you a more empathetic, compassionate individual.
In my experience with my boyfriend, his relationship with his sister and his mother have become very trying for him and even detrimental to his well-being. He briefly considered cutting them out of his life before realizing that those relationships were important to him. They were not abusing him or being so poisonous to him that he needed to relinquish them for life. We talked a lot about it and I encouraged him to really think deeply about this before burning those bridges. He is now working to reconnect with both his sister and his mother, despite the fact that it takes work.
11/15/08
11/15/08
11/15/08
*However* the Freedomain Radio stuff *is* scarily cult-like. [freedomainradio.com] Check it out. Whole lot of groupthink going on over there, and that Molyneaux guy comes across as a sinister, controlling crackpot. Red flags everywhere.
11/15/08
I am not going to judge Mr. Weed's decision or his family life. But, even if it was in his best interest to extricate himself from the family, that does not make FDR not a cult. Most of the discussions on here seem to think that it is a one or the other situation--either he needed to get out or FDR is a cult. It can be both!
11/15/08
11/15/08
11/15/08
11/15/08
I think the internet is merely a tool for communication, not unlike the printing press or telegraph before it. It's people's INTENTION when putting the mode of communication into practice that needs to be blamed. By displacing blame onto the internet instead of placing it where it really belongs (with Molyneux and her own son) Mrs. Weed is missing the opportunity to get to the root of the problem-- real-world relationships.
11/15/08
But then, even if you had stats that showed, say, an increase in young cult members mirroring an increase in computer ownership/internet use, you still could not say for sure there was a connection - too many variables, like social/economic trends etc etc.
I guess it all comes down to communicating with your kids. There was one telling detail in the Guardian story when Tom's mum related how family mealtimes had devolved into them all eating separately because of differing work/life timetables, and that the only time she saw her teenage sons was when they ventured out of their rooms to get something from the fridge. I actually think this is huge.
11/15/08
I doubt that this is a serious or dangerous "cult", considering that Tom has a mind of his own, and they DID NOT take him against his will.
Tom is the problem here, not the website.
11/15/08
11/15/08
11/15/08
11/15/08
11/15/08
11/15/08
That said, it sounds very cult-y. A form letter? That's just weird. However, as someone with social anxiety, I find it a lot easier to meet and maintain online relationships than ones in real life, because I'm a thousand times better at written communication than verbal. The Asperger's doesn't help me make friends in real life much, either. I'm online the majority of the day, but I don't really feel like there's any community that consumes my being. This is really the only site that I'm active in.
11/15/08
I've seen firsthand when people (especially in their mid-late teens) are convinced by someone else that their parents are evil and the only way to become free is to break off all ties with them. I wouldn't say that there was exactly a form letter, but I know that these kids were assisted in writing letters to their family explaining why they wouldn't see them anymore.
So, first off, this is nothing specific to the internet but has been happening for ages. Second, although he says he doesn't ask for money, one of the top navigation buttons on the website is "Donate!" I clicked on this and discovered that you HAVE to donate in order to gain access to the private discussion boards. Third, he says that cults don't encourage their members to go to therapy, but in fact there is a whole genre of therapy-based cults. (That's what the one I grew up in was.) I would ask who is doing the therapy here - if it's someone who belongs to FDR, like a guide or mentor or some such, then this is definitely another textbook cult practice, and is probably one of the main ways members are indoctrinated.
Nothing ever changes. This week CNN is all-Jonestown-all-the-time, and although nothing like that ever happened with our little cult, Jonestown both fascinates me and completely freaks me out; I know from personal experience how something can go so much farther than you would have ever thought, so much more quickly, and yet seem completely reasonable (and inevitable) to those on the inside.
11/15/08
11/15/08
11/15/08
I needed to be rid of my family a few years back. They were not letting me control or live my life. They were also abusing me and keeping me down. Thanks to my Fiance, she was able to release me of them. I know it sounds bad but sometimes your "family" isn't always the best thing for you.
Now this kid may have something similar going on, so in all honesty who is anybody to judge. Just like nobody would know the hardships I went through, nobody really knows what kind of shitty people his family are/is.
I'm sure though that this Molyneux, might have good intentions. I mean the guy advocates animal rights, anyone who is an advocate to take care of something that can't defend itself from people fucking shooting at it from helicopters, is my hero.
11/15/08
"I'm sure though that this Molyneux, might have good intentions. I mean guy advocates animal rights, anyone who is an advocate to take care of something that can't defend itself from people fucking shooting at it from helicopters, is my hero."
You ARE joking, right?
In Hitler's head, he was doing the right thing, the best thing for the German people - he had good intentions. Good intentions are besides the point. I urge you to spend some time on the FDR website and see for yourself what an idiot he is.
Also, Hitler was a vegetarian.
11/15/08
But yeah, treating animals well alone doesn't make someone a good person, and plenty of people have good intentions without actually doing good. Presumably the parents at the Yearning for Zion Ranch who married little girls off to grown men thought they were saving their children's souls when in fact they were committing child abuse.
11/15/08
11/15/08
I swear you people and your bullshit hilter comments, he wasn't the only evil person in the world I hope you know. Shit loads of others did bad in the history of the world.
11/15/08
11/15/08
Sorry if my compassion offends you. :`(
11/15/08
The idea you put forward that someone who is an animal lover cannot also be an asshole was too much of a neat coincidence for me to ignore. I guess I should have realized it's a sore point for vegetarians. I'm not having a go at vegetarians. I was one for years. I respect your choice.
BUT to defend this guy when it appears you have not even read or listened to the kind of crap he's coming out with, does offend me.
11/15/08
11/15/08
I had to read the story twice in the paper.
11/15/08
11/15/08
11/15/08
11/16/08