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Boy-Cott: Male Lingerie Salesmen Not Helping Modesty, Say Saudi Women
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Betty Bea Getty McClanahan
03/26/09

In reply to Boy-Cott: Male Lingerie Salesmen Not Helping Modesty, Say Saudi Women
What really gets me about Saudi Arabia is that your dude relatives have to accompany you everywhere. I would NEVER get to go anywhere because my brother...he is a dick.
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ellaesther
03/26/09

In reply to Boy-Cott: Male Lingerie Salesmen Not Helping Modesty, Say Saudi Women
Here's a thing that I think we (and "we," in this case = people like me) choose to not think about: For Saudi women, this is their life.

They were raised in this system, and for many of them it makes sense -- seems right, seems godly. I imagine that for many, it serves a need that is served by religion and faith all over the world.

Many Saudis are calling for change (to the extent that they can) and I know that the King just named a woman as deputy Minister of Education and is apparently working to "equalize" the education prospects of men and women (thank you Newsweek: [www.newsweek.com]), but if someone were to suggest that they could throw off the veil tomorrow and hang out with the boys at the coffee shop, it seems pretty clear to me that the answer would be "no." Or, more likely, "God forbid!" Whether or not I like or understand that, I have to take it into consideration when I think about this place and the treatment it affords its women.
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Snowbunny
03/26/09

In reply to Boy-Cott: Male Lingerie Salesmen Not Helping Modesty, Say Saudi Women
I'm actually quite tickled by the fact that Saudi women wear slutty underwear. Like finding out your catholic, virginal best friend wears lace thongs, "for the pantie-lines!"
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bowleserised
03/26/09

In reply to Boy-Cott: Male Lingerie Salesmen Not Helping Modesty, Say Saudi Women
Having been stuck behind Saudi women in queues at British lingerie shops, I can say they love their smalls, and they like them sexy and colourful.
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Gingerlime
03/26/09

In reply to Boy-Cott: Male Lingerie Salesmen Not Helping Modesty, Say Saudi Women
I had a half-Spanish, half-Saudi girlfriend who visited her Saudi family for a while a few years back. Before leaving America, she proudly wore a head covering, although she didn't cover her face; she covered to express pride in her ethnic background.

After she got back from Saudi Arabia, she never covered her head again.

Apparently, there are modesty police officers over there who can grab you off the street and jail you for showing an ankle. One time my friend's wrist came out from under her burqua and a man leaned in and said, 'Whore.'

She had some good times with family over there, but sadly now has very ambivalent feelings about half of her heritage.
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kelsium
03/26/09

@Gingerlime: Ugh that is so incredibly sad. This is what inequality does, not only oppress women, but alienate them from their own heritage.
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SarahMC
03/26/09

In reply to Boy-Cott: Male Lingerie Salesmen Not Helping Modesty, Say Saudi Women
Cultural relativism is a moot point when you're talking about HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES. You can be a cultural relativist about cuisine, or musical styles, or length of the official work-day. When it comes to downright oppression, you're either good or bad.
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Ionic
03/26/09

In reply to Boy-Cott: Male Lingerie Salesmen Not Helping Modesty, Say Saudi Women
What really got me was the comment at the very end of the article:

At the Riyadh lingerie shop on Wednesday, one woman-only her eyes visible through the black veil covering her face-said she is suspicious of women-only lingerie shops.

"Bad things happen there," she said.

What might that be?

Women can sneak a picture of you changing with their mobile phones, she replied and refused to give her name.

What the hell kind of paranoid mindset does that indicate? I would go bat-shit crazy in less than three months if I had to put up with so much suspicion.
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SarahMC
03/26/09

@Ionic: Yeah, it's their fellow women they have to fear. Jesus.
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exelizabeth
03/26/09

@Ionic: God, it just goes to show it doesn't matter how "modest" you dress (can't get more modest than head to toe veils), you feel just as vulnerable to victimization based on your sex.

The only way to combat this shit is with MORE gender euqality, not less.
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westvillagegirl (exiled in chicago)
03/26/09

@SarahMC: They must have some INDUSTRIAL-STRENGTH kool-aid out there, because that is some MAJOR brainwashing.
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argle-bargle? or fou-ferraw?
03/26/09

@SarahMC: i threw up in my mouth a little when i read that.

i hate the patriarchy.
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SarahMC
03/26/09

@westvillagegirl (exiled in chicago): Check your PMs.
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kelsium
03/26/09

@Ionic: Oh god. That makes me want to die just thinking about living in that kind of fear.
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vamusical
03/26/09

In reply to Boy-Cott: Male Lingerie Salesmen Not Helping Modesty, Say Saudi Women
I would feel awkward enough buying a thong from a guy at an American Victoria's Secret. I cannot imagine how much worse I'd feel about it in a restrictive/conservative/patriachal culture such as this. geeeez.
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megnificent
03/26/09

In reply to Boy-Cott: Male Lingerie Salesmen Not Helping Modesty, Say Saudi Women
any purchase of said intimate apparel requires prolonged and in-depth discussion of fit with a salesperson.

Ugh. How is describing the size and shape of your breasts to a man not considered an intimate act? Just thinking about it makes me cringe.
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SarahMC
03/26/09

In reply to Boy-Cott: Male Lingerie Salesmen Not Helping Modesty, Say Saudi Women
In a country where mingling between the sexes is strictly forbidden, how could they possibly allow men to work in a store selling WOMEN'S UNDIES?
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megnificent
03/26/09

@SarahMC: It makes your head hurt, doesn't it? Women aren't allowed to work, because they might have to sell something to a strange man, but they are *forced* to purchase undies from other strange men.
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Hana Maru
03/26/09

@megnificent: AND they have to have a male relative chaperone them for the shopping.
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saythatscool
03/26/09

In reply to Boy-Cott: Male Lingerie Salesmen Not Helping Modesty, Say Saudi Women
I bet Palestinian women request a "Gaza Strip" when they go to the waxer.
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Majrhoulihan
03/26/09

@saythatscool: Dude, bad joke.
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Faster.Pussycat
03/26/09

@saythatscool: I am going to exercise my right to have express opinions and say that I think that statement is unfunny and tasteless. Gaza is the site of massive human suffering, and I find it inappropriate to base jokes on human suffering. Plus, Saudi is the subject of the article. Saudi, not Gaza. Equating all Arabic countries and cultures is colonial. Take some time to learn the difference.
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saythatscool
03/26/09

@Faster.Pussycat: I apologize for my insensitivity. I hope you're not turning Riyadh with rage.
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Mount_Prion
03/26/09

@Faster.Pussycat: @saythatscool: I know STC, and I can assure you he's genuinely sari.
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CaptainFantastic
03/26/09

@saythatscool: Muslim women must shave their pubic hair into the shape of the city limits of Mecca. Take some time to read the Qur'an, jerk.
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TableNine
03/26/09

@saythatscool: @Mount_Prion: I've haj it up to here with allah you.
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TableNine
03/26/09

@TableNine: Cut them some slack-- we all mecca mistake from time to time.
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rd2uk
03/26/09

@CaptainFantastic: @saythatscool: @TableNine: wow, really? we do cultural and religious insensitivity here?
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CaptainFantastic
03/26/09

@rd2uk: We do.
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Hana Maru
03/26/09

@rd2uk: Um, this is what happens when Jezebel crossposts. Yikes.
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CaptainFantastic
03/26/09

@HanaMaru: Let's get back on topic. Panty raid!
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TheHonJudgeSmails
03/27/09

@saythatscool: What is this? Al-Jezeerabel?
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Rare Affinity
03/26/09

In reply to Boy-Cott: Male Lingerie Salesmen Not Helping Modesty, Say Saudi Women
I doubt of internet shopping is the answer. In a country as oppressive as Saudia Arabia, I imagine they would not allow lingerie to be posted to women. Moreover, I also suspect the censors would try to ban sites conatinging images of women's underwear especially if modelled on a living woman as opposed to a mannequin.
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pear.shaped.Sara
03/26/09

In reply to Boy-Cott: Male Lingerie Salesmen Not Helping Modesty, Say Saudi Women
I'm all for a no-windows (I guess) ladies only underwear shopping experience with changing rooms. I don't feel bad for any men who really wanted to be underwear salesmen; IMO men enforce the laws that make this scenario the most sensible choice, they can deal.
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Annabellie
03/26/09

In reply to Boy-Cott: Male Lingerie Salesmen Not Helping Modesty, Say Saudi Women
I'd be interested to see what types of men are applying to work at women's lingerie stores...
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stealthird
03/26/09

In reply to Boy-Cott: Male Lingerie Salesmen Not Helping Modesty, Say Saudi Women
Wouldn't it make more sense to ban men from entering lingerie stores, so that they could be run and patronized exclusively by women? That way neither the women shopping nor the women working would have to encounter strange men?

Man, I wish I spoke Arabic. I would totally set up a site like that.
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pear.shaped.Sara
03/26/09

@stealthird: Would make sense, but ladies can't go out in public without a male relative escort. And they can't drive. So how would they get to the store? I doubt the dudes would be OK with standing around on the sidewalk waiting.
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argle-bargle? or fou-ferraw?
03/26/09

@stealthird: it would make sense. but they don't want their ladies running anything, let alone profitable commercial enterprises. and therein lies the problem...
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stealthird
03/26/09

@argle-bargle? or fou-ferraw?: @pear.shaped.Sara: Sigh. I give up.
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argle-bargle? or fou-ferraw?
03/26/09

@stealthird: it really sucks. i kind of view saudi arabia as a cautionary example. THIS is what happens when you let uber-conservative, fundamentalist yahoos take control!
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ellaesther
03/26/09

@argle-bargle? or fou-ferraw?: Well, not entirely. I mean, just over the border in Qatar (which is probably where a lot of these women go to shop) they follow the same kind of Islam, but aren't nearly as restrictive. Not that I would want to live there, but it's really an entirely different ball of wax. Women can own businesses, at certain universities they study in de-segregated classrooms, and efforts are being made to deal with domestic violence. Again, not the way I would do it, but also not like in Saudi.

Which, I will be honest, surprised the shit out of me when I learned it in recent weeks!
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