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BeRy51
10/05/09

In reply to Black Models Tell Teen Vogue How Hard It Is To Be Black Models
I am continually confused by this reality--it seems so counterintuitive to the supposed "artistry" and "aesthetic work" of fashion that certain shades and shapes are summarily excluded. When the haute designers (like those listed above) speak of artistry and creation, I laugh. Don't get me wrong. . .i love their dresses. But they are producing commercial items- inspired and contained by the unequal power structures present in mundane political and economic life. They cannot even innovate to the point of recognizing the aesthetic potential of anything but the conventional small-framed-big-eyed-white-lady. Blindly accepting aesthetic conventions does not an artist make.
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HeatherNumber1 promoted this comment Edited by morninggloria at 10/05/09 2:24 PM morninggloria approved this comment BeRy51 was starred BeRy51 was unstarred

Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!
10/05/09

@BeRy51: Was just about to say the same thing (in a much more mundane way). Miles of taffeta, neon yellow face paint, diamond-encrusted bodysuits, 12-inch heels... anything is possible. But you want a size-six Haitian model in the spread? Never.
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Rooo sez BISH PLZ
10/05/09

@BeRy51: Well, they probably also failed color theory in design school.

Kidding. Kind of.
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polypam
10/05/09

In reply to Black Models Tell Teen Vogue How Hard It Is To Be Black Models
I make no excuses for my love of Teen Vogue and I am in my 30's. The editorials are amazing, it costs only $2.99, and it's so small it fits into my handbag. Plus, I've never seen an article that was about how to get a boy to notice you.
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Ultraprison! promoted this comment Edited by polypam at 10/05/09 2:21 PM polypam was starred polypam was unstarred

Coup d’état
10/05/09

In reply to Black Models Tell Teen Vogue How Hard It Is To Be Black Models
Gah! What does "models of color" mean?! I hate that phrase. We are all "of color". What color are you?
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thesciencegirl promoted this comment Coup d’état was starred Coup d’état was unstarred

thesciencegirl
10/05/09

@Coup d’état: I think it's an imperfect solution to an impossible problem. We are always changing the words we use to talk about race and ethnicity.
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AfroGuapo
10/05/09

In reply to Black Models Tell Teen Vogue How Hard It Is To Be Black Models
Selina, res ipsa loquitor gurl. Res ipsa. Most blacks of the diapora (85%) have lineage other than African ancestry, hence the vast array of our look across the black spectrum.

[www.oknation.net]
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Understater
10/05/09

In reply to Black Models Tell Teen Vogue How Hard It Is To Be Black Models
Kind of beside the point, but I think Jourdan blows Chanel out of the water.
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DJDeeJay
10/05/09

@Understater: Not only besides the point, but isn't this, like, AGAINST the whole point?
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DexterHaven
10/05/09

@Understater: Exactly what a debate about competitiveness in modelling needs! More competition!
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Understater
10/05/09

@DexterHaven: You know how you think you're being funny? Yeah, no.
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DexterHaven
10/05/09

@Understater: Oh, I'm sorry, were you using irony in the Alanis Morrissette sense?
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Rooo sez BISH PLZ
10/05/09

@Understater: Well, imo that comment kind of blew yours out of the water.
I don't think I'm being funny either though.
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Edited by Rooo sez BISH PLZ at 10/05/09 3:11 PM Rooo sez BISH PLZ was starred

Rooo sez BISH PLZ
10/05/09

@DexterHaven: It's like raaaa-YEEE-YAAAAAIIIN on your wedding day.
Who would have thought it figured?
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History Major
10/05/09

In reply to Black Models Tell Teen Vogue How Hard It Is To Be Black Models
I'm totally not black. See i'm indian and creole and of african ancestry but don't you dare call be black!
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Moloko
10/05/09

@PogoStick09: No, she wouldn't be black. Point?
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MizJenkins
10/05/09

@PogoStick09: So an Indian, an Arab, a Creole woman, a Vietnamese woman and Selina Khan walk into a bar...
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AlmostDream
10/05/09

@Moloko: Seriously? "Of african ancestry" doesn't qualify her?
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Moloko
10/05/09

@AlmostDream: So that old one-drop rule is coming into play again?

I would guess by the name Khan and the fact that she looks South Asian, that she is predominately South Asian (she even says Indian!) Of course, I'm sure the blogger who called her black wasn't trying to slant the facts to cover up her mistake at all...
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thesciencegirl
10/05/09

@PogoStick09: I have to say that the reaction people are having to Selina Khan's self-identification is really annoying me. First of all, people are reacting badly mostly because of how they perceive her looks, and from a very black-white binary perspective, might I add (to me, she clearly reads as Asian). Secondly, she gave a clear description of her ancestry, the only component of which may reflect black ancestry is "creole," which often means different things to different people. In other words, at most, this young woman (17! and probably still figuring out how to identify herself) has a small amount of African ancestry along with other ethnicities, with which she clearly identifies more strongly. And people are upset that she doesn't identify as black! Why? Because she looks black to you?
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Moloko
10/05/09

@thesciencegirl: Excellent comment. I found the "swears she isn't black" text of the link very strange, especially if you click through and see she's not defensive, she's just correcting someone who made an (incorrect) assumption about her. Because black people are the only ones with brown skin, you know...!

I also raised an eyebrow at "Honey, someone lied to you" because that's pretty fucking offensive.
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thesciencegirl promoted this comment Moloko was starred Moloko was unstarred

GirlyQ is a manta ray
10/05/09

@thesciencegirl: Yep. SO co-signed. It's kind of the way I feel like biracial people are often pushed into identifying s black because that's how people want to see them. Obama? Forget that he was raised by his white family, and that is a whole half of his genetic code. We know what we see! The invisibility of biracial people is quite disconcerting to me.
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thesciencegirl
10/05/09

@Moloko: I was also rubbed the wrong way by the "swears she isn't black" comment and the blog post it linked to. She isn't black. So, why is this an issue?
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AlmostDream
10/05/09

@Moloko: I don't know this girl's full background, so I can't comment. But I had the same reaction as pogostick09 because I've encountered way too many people who would be looked at as black who go out of their way to deny that.

My problem is with that attitude, not people claiming their ethnicity. I just get angry when people are offended at being called black.

(I'm not saying that's Khan's attitude, and it honestly doesn't seem to be.)
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Edited by AlmostDream at 10/05/09 2:16 PM AlmostDream was starred AlmostDream was unstarred

Moloko
10/05/09

@thesciencegirl: Brown skin = black and obvs Selina Khan is a FILTHY LIAR for saying she is like Indian and stuff because nobody from India is brown, ever.
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Moloko
10/05/09

@AlmostDream: But she's not defensive or in denial at all. Actually, she reacted pretty graciously to a woman who practically called her a liar because of her assumptions about Khan's looks. It's kind of wrong that she felt she was entitled to know her ancestry and question her like that too.
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thesciencegirl promoted this comment Moloko was starred Moloko was unstarred

Trulymadlyme
10/05/09

@thesciencegirl: Also, if we're using physical traits, there are substantial Bangladeshi, Indian, and Aboriginal populations that for looks purposes are black.

Race is a social construct. Spending a lot of time in Brasil taught me that.
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Edited by Trulymadlyme at 10/05/09 2:23 PM Trulymadlyme was starred Trulymadlyme was unstarred

MichelinG
10/05/09

@GirlyQ is a manta ray: But doesn't Obama self- identify as a black man? I think it is pretty widely acknowledged that he is bi-racial, but if he considers himself black, I don't see a problem with other people doing the same.
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Skellatrix promoted this comment MichelinG was starred MichelinG was unstarred

Skellatrix
10/05/09

@thesciencegirl: And conversely, since I look white but I'm half-Cape Verdean*, if I said "I'm black" would the blogger laugh at me and say "someone lied to you?" Or "not black enough?" She probably wouldn't have thought to approach me, most likely assuming that I'm not black at all.

Eugh.

*I know we're mixed race, so I'm half mixed-race. If you want to get technical. But I call myself "half black" if I don't feel like explaining Cape Verdeaness.
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MizJenkins
10/05/09

@thesciencegirl: No, first of all I'm not upset I'm more...bemused. As a "person of mixed-race heritage" I am well aware that there are very few short-hand ways to accurately describe your ethnicity to people. Also, it's annoying that you even have to.

Maybe you're right and she just hasn't figured it out yet, but most people do at least try to boil it down to the quickest thing they can say to shut someone up (even if it's largely inaccurate). The only time I hear people go out of their way to recite a page-long pedigree going back to their indigenous ancestors is when they want to make sure people know they're NOT BLACK!
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thesciencegirl
10/05/09

@Trulymadlyme: Yes, and I think part of the problem here is people don't realize that (or like, you know, what South Asians look like outside of Bollywood). But if we're using "black" to mean of African ancestry (and I think we are), then this girl isn't black, and there's nothing wrong with her saying that.

And as someone else said above, she seemed to say it very graciously, and not as though she were horrified by the mistake or anything.
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AlmostDream
10/05/09

@Trulymadlyme: This is where my issue lies. Race IS a social construct and has no real meaning. So really the only thing to go by is what you are perceived as, because there is no reason to self-identify as any "race" when you can actually say your ethnic background, which is accurate and has a real meaning.
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Trulymadlyme promoted this comment Edited by AlmostDream at 10/05/09 2:37 PM AlmostDream was starred AlmostDream was unstarred

Moloko
10/05/09

@MizJenkins: Or if someone's accusing them of lying, of course.

Me: Hiimtiaiwriteforablackbeautybl.........

Beautiful Girl: Oh, I'm not black.

Me: Honey, someone lied to you.

Beautiful Girl: No, really (giggling the most refreshingly unaffected giggle). My mom's Indian, mixed with Arabic and Creole, and my dad is Vietnamese. Yep, Indian and Chinese.

And describing your parentage isn't "a page-long pedigree going back to their indigenous ancestors", so stop with the weasel words.

It's bemusing how people are so quick to defend a blogger who fucked up and tried to accuse a 17 year old girl of lying.
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thesciencegirl promoted this comment Edited by Moloko at 10/05/09 2:39 PM Moloko was starred Moloko was unstarred

thesciencegirl
10/05/09

@MizJenkins: Yeah, ok, I get that. But in this case, we're not talking about a person of mixed descent who has African ancestry and wants to downplay it; she simply isn't black. So, when someone makes assumptions about her race based on their own ignorance, she responds by rattling off the list (which, btw, is how I approached those questions when I was 17 too). I can see your point more if she were part black, but she just isn't (ok, maybe her mom has some black ancestry -- based on that creole comment). I think people are projecting other issues onto this girl, which don't really apply to her. If she's mostly Indian and Vietnamese, why should black people take offense at that? She's only being honest and accurate about her heritage.
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Skellatrix
10/05/09

@MichelinG: I feel like if you're dark-skinned you can be mixed and identify as black and people won't get upset about it.

But if you're light and you identify as white, people worry about you denouncing your heritage. When my (black) grandmother first met me as an infant she referred to me as "Imitation of Life." The woman who baby-sat me, who was black, thought of me as "that white girl" (until, apparently, she started caring for "real" white children and then she decided that I wasn't so "white" after all).

So.. I don't know what my point is. Just try not to be mixed and look white. You get identity issues and no "team" wants you. /end sad rant
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MizJenkins
10/05/09

@thesciencegirl: I hadn't read the interview...it turns out that I know the blogger and the funny thing is she and Selina Khan could be sisters. Ironically, people are always asking Tia to explain her ethnicity: she's just Black.

So I imagine it was kind of a "ZOMG you look like me! No way, we MUST be related...no? Oh ok" kind of moment. I think everyone can probably chill out about the blogger accusing her of lying and such.

I wasn't outraged by Khan or anything either. It was just a mouthful and I found it peculiar that she went into such detail. Makes more sense in context.
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Edited by MizJenkins at 10/05/09 2:53 PM MizJenkins was starred MizJenkins was unstarred

MichelinG
10/05/09

@Skellatrix: I've never personally had to deal with something like this, but I've heard a lot of people from all sides of the issue comment on it and I think it's very interesting and yeah, sometimes kind of depressing.

It's easy to speculate about why Obama (or any other bi-racial person) identifies with whatever group he identifies with, but ultimately I don't know how it feels to have to make that choice. I assume there's pressure to identify as something different depending on who you're around.

Ultimately, I think the most respectful thing I can do (or anyone can do, really), is to identify people the way they choose to be identified. Same goes for Jourdan.
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morninggloria
10/05/09

In reply to Black Models Tell Teen Vogue How Hard It Is To Be Black Models
Pregnant teenagers really can do anything!
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avec_accent
10/05/09

@morninggloria: apart from heavy lifting.
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PrisonBreakShaker
10/05/09

In reply to Black Models Tell Teen Vogue How Hard It Is To Be Black Models
I have to say though, as a multi-racial person, when I started seeing people who looked more "like me" on the runway, it was more of an afterthought, as opposed to some awesome revolutionary moment. Even when I was "model" thin (albeit never "model" tall), I never really felt like those were the people who made me feel "normal", since they were supposed ot look other-worldly, anyway. Frankly, I was always more happy when I saw some mixed girl getting print work or an acting job. I guess the more mundane exposure, the better. The more diversity I see in boring-town, everyday media, the more I feel like people are actually acknowledging we live in a multi-racial, multi-cultural world. Ikea commercials actually make me so happy I could squee.
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bellzar08
10/05/09

@PrisonBreakShaker: Biracial over here!

I agree, it resonates much more if I see people who look like me on my television screen and in the movies. I actually think that that is a fair way to measure our progress as a society in regards to issues of race.
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Rooo sez BISH PLZ promoted this comment bellzar08 was starred bellzar08 was unstarred

Rooo sez BISH PLZ
10/05/09

@bellzar08: There are hordes of people who might attempt to disagree with you on your point in future, using some warped Aristotelian logic variant usually accompanied by a misapplied data barrage.

I am not one of them.
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Edited by Rooo sez BISH PLZ at 10/05/09 3:24 PM Rooo sez BISH PLZ was starred

Sandicomm
10/05/09

In reply to Black Models Tell Teen Vogue How Hard It Is To Be Black Models
Chanel Iman, Jourdan Dunn, Sessilee Lopez and Arlenis Sosa are all on the cover of i-D this month. I am so happy that these lovely women are getting work--they deserve it! But remember, they were all in Vogue Italia. I'm happy that that issue launched so many careers, but come on: there have to be more brown-skinned models than these four young ladies, Tyra, Naomi, and a few others. Otherwise, these four young women will just become tokens and, as the above article pointed out, can't become friends because of the stiff competition.
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greengrey promoted this comment Sandicomm was starred Sandicomm was unstarred

lonewolfer: lusty trollop
10/05/09

In reply to Black Models Tell Teen Vogue How Hard It Is To Be Black Models
Naomi and Tyra: 2009. At least these young women realized hating each other isn't going to get them anywhere.
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greengrey promoted this comment

greengrey
10/05/09

@lonewolfer: I was just thinking that. The more things change, the more things stay the same.
I don't like how people will pit black models against each other.
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KATE!
10/05/09

In reply to Black Models Tell Teen Vogue How Hard It Is To Be Black Models
i actually think this is a great cover. the soft-focus and styling makes it look a little retro. these girls arent being presented as something flashy, new, or exotic, but being situated into a rather tired americana trope. there are no wild animals or jungle plants, just preppy outfits, fresh faces, red lips, and killer eyebrows.

a lot of times when models of color are presented in magazines, the styling relies heavily on racial stereotypes and imagery. this cover seems to be doing the opposite. its so americana, they could be on a freakin yacht.
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CherriSpryte
10/05/09

In reply to Black Models Tell Teen Vogue How Hard It Is To Be Black Models
Are they deliberately trying to make them look as similar as possible - same hair style, extremely similar makeup and expressions? I can understand the whole "runway models all sport the same look while on the runway" deal, but for a magazine cover?
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greengrey
10/05/09

@CherriSpryte: Not the first time a cover showed models all looking the same.
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Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!
10/05/09

@greengrey: I HATE how everyone looks so similar on this cover. Might as well re-post this in any of the 'good hair' threads, too. Long 'n wavy, everywhere you look.
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ModelLiberation
10/05/09

In reply to Black Models Tell Teen Vogue How Hard It Is To Be Black Models
I've been turned down for being black. But that's not the point. I'm glad these ladies are representing for the rest of us and telling it like it is. Black is beautiful.
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greengrey promoted this comment ModelLiberation was starred ModelLiberation was unstarred

flufffox
10/05/09

In reply to Black Models Tell Teen Vogue How Hard It Is To Be Black Models
I can't believe any designer would turn away a black model because she's black. Wow. With the nude and bright colour trend you'd expect to see more black models, don't you? I'd go so well on their delicious skin.
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PinkSoxHat
10/05/09

@flufffox: I can totally believe it (see list above). What I can't believe is that, in this day and age, they actually came out and SAID it!
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flufffox
10/05/09

@PinkSoxHat: I guess I'm just naive for believing a designer would want the best model to show off their designs. Oh what a world.
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Rooo sez BISH PLZ
10/05/09

@flufffox: What do you mean "you can't believe it"?
The commenter right above you stated deliberately and directly: "I've been turned down for being black".
How much more displacement of your disbelief do you need?
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flufffox
10/05/09

@Rooo sez BISH PLZ: I do BELIEVE it. It's just a way of uttering my astonishment. I'm honestly just completely astounded by racism, as naïve as that probably comes off...
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MizJenkins
10/05/09

In reply to Black Models Tell Teen Vogue How Hard It Is To Be Black Models
Uh oh...cue Chanel Iman reality show in 3...2...
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Aesop's Foibles. YES.
10/05/09

@MizJenkins: Hah! I do like her words, though, re: not wanting to be known as A Black Model, but as herself.
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jbrecken
10/05/09

@Aesop's Foibles. YES.: I couldn't help laughing at the irony that someone called "Chanel Iman" wants to make a name for herself in the world of fashion.
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Rooo sez BISH PLZ
10/05/09

@jbrecken: I always wondered if anyone else found that funny.
Did she change her given name to that?

(I also wonder if Iman ever rolled her eyes in private over it.)
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