Jezebel 
Enter your username and password.
New York, 11:41 PM
Sun Nov 8
22 posts in the last 24 hours
Tip your editors:
tips@jezebel.com
Editor-in-Chief:
Anna Holmes
Email | Twitter
Deputy Editor:
Dodai Stewart
Email | Twitter
Senior Contributing Editor:
Tracie Egan
Email | Twitter
Contributing Editors:
Anna North
Email | Twitter
Sadie Stein
Email | Twitter
Editorial Assistant:
Margaret Hartmann
Email | Twitter
Contributors:
Jenna Sauers
Email
Rich Juzwiak
Email | Twitter
Lizzie Skurnick
Email
Interns:
Katy Kelleher
Twitter
Original material is licensed under a Creative Commons License permitting non-commercial sharing with attribution.
10/20/09
Moms who had c-sections and are happy about them and happy to have healthy babies, good for you. There is no reason to be defensive, no one is attacking you for how you gave birth!
The woman in AZ did not say that a c-section was rape, she said that not giving permission to have surgery, but being forced to have it anyway 'felt like rape to her'. She is entitled to feel that way IMO.
She is grateful for the c-section she had that was necessary, but was not willing to take the risk to have another when it isn't necessary. (the mortality rate for c-sections is DOUBLE the mortality rate for vaginal births, so obviously she has a legitimate concern)
The part of this puzzle that people don't see to understand is that a VBAC, especially for a woman who has already has one is VERY LOW RISK. Her risk of needing emergency services isn't any higher than any other laboring woman, so if this hospital can't provide emergency services for a VBAC then they really can't provide it for any laboring woman and probably shouldn't even offer L&D services. Why even go to the hospital if it isn't for the 'safety net' they provide in case of emergency?
This is about ass-covering, plain and simple. The risks of this birth going badly are not any higher than any other birth, but what is higher is the risk of the hospital being sued. They are willing to assault this woman to protect their bottom line. They are putting money over her life and bodily integrity - THAT IS NOT OKAY.
10/19/09
Anyway, speaking from my own experience--the most upsetting thing for me is that I was basically duped into having my surgery. That may not be every woman's experience, but maybe you can understand how that might be upsetting. And unfortunately this is NOT always the kind of thing you can know ahead of time about your provider. One thing that I always tell people is that I never wanted to be the type of person who distrusted the medical establishment. When I was growing up, in my family the doctor's word was as good as gold. Now, after some experiences I have had and some research that I've done, I have learned that doctors are only human. I actually don't think the doctor who called for my unnecessary section was doing anything nefarious. She was acting on something besides medical evidence, but she was also perhaps tired, maybe a little jaded, perhaps influenced by the fact that she had performed so many cesareans in the past and herself minimized the complications. In any case, life is a lot more complicated now that I am called to question. I kind of hate it, but that's what personal responsibility is all about. I don't think that pointing fingers helps, but I do think as women it's important to petition our doctors (and not just our individual doctors, but the medical establishment in the greater sense) to practice evidence-based medicine.
10/19/09
Don't get me wrong. In an ideal situation, all women would be able to make their own health care decisions (up to the point where a birth becomes dangerous), but this isn't an ideal situation. Too many hospitals are understaffed and underfunded, making tough decisions necessary. #reproductiverights
10/19/09
10/20/09
10/20/09
10/20/09
10/19/09
But the majority of women can give birth vaginally just fine, given the resources (support, doula, good midwife/doctor, pain medication as needed), and the TIME to labor and deliver as needed. Pregnancy is different for everyone, labor and delivery is different for everyone.
I don't agree with her calling it "rape" but dammit, if someone is touching or doing ANYTHING to my lady parts without my consent, then it's at least sexual assault. And to threaten women with a court order to do surgery just makes me so upset I could cry. #reproductiverights
10/19/09
I was able to deliver my second child vaginally. I refused drugs. I had no epidural. The nurse thought I was nuts. She told me how normal it was for women to schedule C-sections & drug cocktails and go home happy. My vaginal birth was the most wonderful thing. I felt incredible afterward. I told the nurse, "Hell, let's do it again!" I did howl a bit through the process. I guess the nurse thought that was not dignified for a lady. #reproductiverights
10/19/09
10/20/09
10/20/09
10/20/09
Years later she has bad feelings about having her reproductive freedom taken away from her, and the resulting drug withdrawal at a critical time in her and her baby's life. It's a reasonable way to feel.
The bigger picture you're not seeing is that a lot of women in this country are disempowered at the time of labor. If you think we should stfu about it and be grateful if our babies are even alive, there's something wrong with you. #reproductiverights
10/20/09
10/20/09
Also, are you comparing being disagreed with on the internet with being raped? For serious? #reproductiverights
10/20/09
10/20/09
10/20/09
Have you had a C-section yourself? #reproductiverights
10/19/09
what's even more irritating is when hospitals make women go through painful labor for days and days and end up just doing a c-section, which could have saved the mother all of that pain and unnecessary cost of drugs, hospital stay, et cetera. #reproductiverights
10/19/09
I don't think it's accurate to say that a forced cesarean is the same thing as rape, but that doesn't mean it can't be similar. Many women who have been victims of sexual assault are forced to re-live the lack of bodily integrity and control in their birth experience. I heard a poem once a woman wrote that was simultaneously about her gang rape at 15 and her birth nearly a decade later. In both cases men held her legs down and snapped at her to be quiet.
Outright abuse is the end of a spectrum that begins with unkindness and disrespect. Both rape and forced, unnecessary cesareans fall, albeit distinctly, on this spectrum
10/20/09
10/19/09
Giving birth is a 9 month process and how we end up crossing the finish line is not a big deal to me as long as we are safe and healthy. My worth as a woman or mother has nothing to do with how my baby comes out. #reproductiverights
10/19/09
10/20/09
I felt exactly the same way last year when I gave birth to my son.
The thing is, you can plan and plan and write a 450-page wish list/birth plan and at the end of the day you just DON'T KNOW what's going to happen.
That's what's so fantastic about the whole process. Every minute is a surprise.
I wish more women would be at peace with either outcome.
You still get a baby at the end.
10/19/09
When her water broke two weeks early, she arrived at the hospital where her wishes for a natural birth (even if it wasn't in the pool) were ignored, even though she had a plan with the staff there-- her doctor wasn't in that night, and she had no recourse. Instead of allowing a natural birth, she was put under and I was born via C-section.
Twenty-some years later, we heard a story on NPR about children born via vaginal birth to women with herpes having three times' higher risk for schizophrenia, and that it'd been talked about in the medical community for years but never actively publicized. My mom turned to me and said "maybe that's why they wouldn't let me give birth to you the way I wanted. I just don't understand why I wasn't told earlier." I don't know how true this statistic is, but if it's true and had been known for a while, it seems to tie into the whole "pregnant ladies have no higher thought process because they're all wrapped up in THE BABY, so we'll do their thinking for them" mindset that is so terribly dismaying, and one of the reasons so many of my friends have eschewed "traditional" medical system births and worked with doulas and midwives instead. #reproductiverights
10/19/09
I had new mothers who cried because they didn't have a "natural" birth due to an unplanned C-section or they felt they had to explain why they opted for a last minute epidural.
It doesn't matter if they yanked the kid out through your nose...IT'S STILL A "NATURAL" BIRTH. #reproductiverights
10/19/09
10/19/09
I find it so sad that women beat themselves up for not having the birth they had imagined they'd have for months. I personally fear another medicated birth, but that's only because the one I had with my son was such a miserable experience for me, but I'm not going to beat myself up for years if during my next birth experience I become too exhausted and decide I want that epidural or end up needing an emergency procedure.
I see the same thing happen with women who want to breastfeed but find it too painful or frustrating and switch to formula. Lots of mama guilt. :-( #reproductiverights
10/19/09
I felt bad for my friend because she has a little bit of low self-esteem and she actually questioned herself. #reproductiverights
10/19/09
Now there's a reason to avoid painkillers during/after birth...staying mentally sharp for verbal warfare. #reproductiverights
10/19/09
10/19/09
Of course that could just be because I just had to call my OB/GYN and request they fax me two permission slips... one for a dental cleaning (not even X-ray!) and one for a flu shot (which is RECOMMENDED for pregnant women), neither of which I can get on my own say-so because I have no brain because I am pregnant. #reproductiverights
10/19/09
Wow, seriously? I can't imagine having to get permission slips for stuff like that. I'm sorry. :-/
I'm pregnant as well, and I know my midwife doesn't believe in vaccinating against ANYTHING; thankfully the clinic I went to didn't force me to get a permission slip from her. #reproductiverights
10/19/09
I finally got one though that season and I am trying to get all my ducks in a row this season as well to protect myself, Baby Bean, my young son, and all the old and/or fragile people in my family. #reproductiverights
10/19/09
Seriously. They would not even FLOSS my TEETH without a permission slip.
If I could not get a permission slip for either I was going to wrap my midsection in a few towels and just pretend I was overweight. Most people cannot tell I am pregnant right now anyway; they just think I'm way off my diet. #reproductiverights
10/19/09
Still, I can't believe any dentist would refuse to just clean your teeth. #reproductiverights
10/19/09
10/19/09
10/19/09
You can't make this stuff up; all you can do is make the best of it! #reproductiverights
10/19/09
It's not so much to protect the woman from herself as it is to protect the doctor from the woman. #reproductiverights
10/19/09
As an example I had someone call me selfish because I complained about having to take off time from work when my child's daycare was closed. Apparently I was supposed to just be overjoyed to spend more time with my child, and I wasn't supposed to worry about how it would affect a project I was working on. #reproductiverights
10/19/09
I think it is a combination of you're-pregnant-so-I-can-treat-you-like-..., cowardice, and laziness.
But I'm a mean person. :) #reproductiverights
10/19/09
Damn. With attitudes like this, I'm surprised we're "allowed" to continue driving or doing other "dangerous" things while pregnant. *sigh* #reproductiverights
10/19/09
They didn't. So it can't just be fear of malpractice. Hence, utter laziness and the knowledge that a pregnant woman is likely to be too exhausted to fight, will pay her copay, and go home with the work undone. #reproductiverights
10/19/09
I'm my family's sole financial support as well and I have found my career at a standstill post-baby. #reproductiverights
10/19/09
10/19/09
Which reminds me I should probably get a note for driving two hours away for Thanksgiving in case we are pulled over. #reproductiverights
10/19/09
10/19/09
though I do feel obliged to warn you not to click because it's anger-inducing and that's bad for the baby...
*removes tongue from cheek* #reproductiverights
10/19/09
No such thing in medicine. You can't waive your right to sue even if its a decision you made against the written advice of a physician that you signed in front of a judge.
You can certainly have someone sign a paper that says they are refusing an offered treatment against the advice of a doctor (though even that isn't 100% protection). But if I offered you a drug or treatment that was not indicated and not (in my best medical opinion) in your best interests and you had a bad outcome, you could sign all the waivers in the universe and the only good they would be for me is scratch paper while I was being deposed.
However, I think its probably good that such waivers don't exist, even though they would make my life a lot easier. If they did, you'd probably be forced to sign one before any interaction you ever had with a health care provider in the US with our litigious environment. ("Sorry, but I can't fix your hernia unless you sign this waiver...") #reproductiverights
10/20/09
The amount of bacteria in your blood stream goes up after you brush or floss, and even more after you do dental work. If you have gingivitis, flossing will cause bleeding in the gums, and the bacteria which caused the gingivitis in the first place will get into your blood stream. For a healthy person, this does not pose an immediate risk, the body will kill the bacteria in a few hours, but ppl at risk should be careful. Just because you may have never heard about this, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Bacteria from periodontitis is know to cause, among other things, pericarditis, i.e. infected gums cause heart infections. Not in everyone with inflammed gums of course, but it happens often enough. That is why ppl with heart problems are adviced to tell their dentists because they should have preventive anti-biotics before any major dental procedures. Especially those with artifical heart valves or pacemakers because the bacteria likes to attach itself to the valves and pacemakers.
You might think teeth are just teeth and nothing to do with the rest of the body, but this is not so. The few lines I've written here are a molecule of water in the ocean, compared to everything there is to know about health and disease. If you want to know just how complicated this is, you could go to any university's webpage and browse through the doctoral dissertations, many universities publish them online. A dissertation is the starting point in a researcher's career, it gets more complicated after that.
You could have just googled this if you really cared to know. #reproductiverights
10/20/09
10/20/09
10/20/09
What I really want to know, and that no one can tell me, is why the dentist, when made aware of my condition when I made the appointment, could not tell me I needed a permission slip.
What part of protecting my health (or Googling for that matter--hey, what's that? I've never heard of it!) says that they needed to wait till I was in the chair? #reproductiverights
10/20/09
10/20/09
And binding arbitration agreements are actually being challenged already. They aren't far on this world in medicine. This is largely because people feel that a single genuine mistake on the part of their physician entitles them to 250% of what she will make in her entire professional lifetime. (Because unlike all other human, physicians are never actually allowed to make a single mistake. Ever.) #reproductiverights
10/19/09
10/19/09
10/19/09
10/19/09
10/19/09
10/19/09
10/19/09
I'm uncomfortable framing this as 'rape' or demonizing doctors and nurses too much. We often have to make split second decisions based on the information we have at the time - which admittedly are colored by not only the fear of getting sued, but by the fear of killing our patients. The latter being significantly worse. #reproductiverights
10/19/09
i'm guessing the malpractice angle is the reason Csections have increased, especially with patients who have prior Csections. i can see why especially a smaller and probably understaffed hospital wouldn't consent to a vaginal birth in this instance. who knows if health insurance now won't even pay for a vaginal birth if a patient's had a previous Csection? i wouldn't be shocked. #reproductiverights
10/19/09
Physicians' intuitive knowledge gained through experience in multiple deliveries is literally disappearing, as doctors are finding it easier and more efficient to train residents to handle even slightly difficult pregnancies with surgery rather than account for all the nuances and specialized skills of dealing with problems in vaginal deliveries. This has then filtered into the general practice, regardless of difficulties; C-sections are often just what doctors are more comfortable doing now.
This is partially a product of all industrialized Western medicine and all sexes and ages are effected by this. But it also seems to be a specific concern for women; it just doesn't seem to be a priority to deal with treatment and procedures for those crazy and confusing lady parts (don't even get me started on gynecological cancers!) and so streamlined procedures (you will have an C-section for your own good! ) take the place of thoughtful and particular application of procedures. #reproductiverights