@Rooo sez BISH PLZ: my boyfriend is always nice enough to warn me when he is about to have a fit of MES (male explanatory syndrome) about something i already know. this allows me to daydream at will for the explanation. if only all men were as considerate. but honestly, when one of them writes a book, i'm pretty sure that's your warning screaming MES! all over the place. #marcusbuckingham
@Isoperla: But if he knows it's coming on enough to warn you, why couldn't he just ... refrain?
And do something else?
Like, the dishes? #marcusbuckingham
I'm currently pregnant and constantly searching for challenging assignments at work only nobody will give them to me. (This is not a change from times when I am not pregnant, I should note.)
FFS, with my first pregnancy I worked full time, went to grad school full time, and tried to keep the house clean. I CAN multitask. Why won't anyone believe me? #marcusbuckingham
I love it when people pull out that wage thing about how women usually "interrupt their careers" and so are perceived to have less experience.
They have to be implying that this is due to maternity leave. Even though maternity leave is usually only about, what, 3 months? And most women can't afford to take off more time even if they wanted to.
That hardly seems like enough time for that kind of wage gap to still exist if that's what it's supposedly based on. And I think it's telling that we think that taking time off for motherhood somehow means you shouldn't get the same pay for the same work. It's not about different levels of experience, it's about literally not being paid the same when you have the same qualifications.
I do understand that someone who takes off 5 years of working in an office can't just come back in at a higher level than they left. But that's often not what happens. It's like women have to start over completely. As though motherhood doesn't count, and I find that odd. And it shows a very ingrained sexism and hierarchy of what we deem "important". We're all supposed to want to be mothers, but if we take the time to do it, we're financially screwed. Yay? #marcusbuckingham
@tiredfairy: "I think it's telling that we think that taking time off for motherhood somehow means you shouldn't get the same pay for the same work."
And it makes you wonder, do those people really:
A) think that women should be solely responsible for bearing the costs of keeping the population of Amurricans replenished, even though it benefits us all (including women like me, who don't really want kids), or;
B) think that the American population should just come to an end, or thinks more lax immigration policies could keep our population growth steady, so that Americans don't have to do the actual reproducing.
C) Oh, and of course, I can't forget the near-eugenics argument-- only women who are wealthy enough to afford to take a financial and career hit should be reproducing anyway. Aka not poor single moms, or poor people. #marcusbuckingham
@tiredfairy: I just can't believe that the entire ~30% pay descrepency is entirely due to bigotry on the part of the people signing the paychecks. Maybe I'm just naive. It's just that, that's such a huge gap; how does that happen!?
If the answer is maternity leave (probably among other things, including sexism), then would more men taking paternity leave level the gap? I can understand a company giving fewer raises to people who don't work for three months, so in my mind the solution would be for more men to take time off to raise children, have a more active role in parenting, etc. This is of course assuming that men would face the same negative career consequences for taking such leaves. #marcusbuckingham
@tiredfairy: Hmm, I think you're right about the 3-month thing, but isn't that a fairly recent/urban/professional thing?
I don't have any data about this, but it I still have lots of friends in rural areas who take a few years off (until the kids go to school), and my sense anecdotally is that taking 1-2 years off was pretty common even 5 years ago... if so, that could really be skewing both statistics and perceptions of older men in the workforce.
@Asmo: Well, ingrained sexism is funny like that. It's not always obvious. No one has to say, hey, we hate women we don't think they work as well as men do. But it's part of our culture, the idea that women just...shouldn't get the same level of pay as men. We come with all kinds of reasons/excuses, but to me at least, it seems to come down to the same old sexism. #marcusbuckingham
@shantidevi: Depends on what you mean by recent. I think women have been working outside the home, and doing so while having kids, for a long time. I grew up in the suburbs in the 80's and 90's and most of the women worked. They weren't taking 5 years off to raise their kids.
I nannied a few years ago and found this to be true for the most part now. Most women couldn't really afford to take more than that small allotted maternity leave without seriously effecting their income.
I think what bothers me is the assumption that motherhood doesn't involve any practical skills that can be applied to the professional work force. #marcusbuckingham
@Rooo sez BISH PLZ: You're right. :} It really bothers me, too. I'm not a mom but the idea that one is "real" work and the other isn't...and that there aren't plenty of applied skills involved in mothering seems off to me. And seems to be at the root at some of the discussion and opinions from folks like that. It's not like taking time to be a mom means you went on a vacation.
@tiredfairy: I think you're right about that in the end, it does come down to sexism. I just think that along the way, there's a lot of other stuff going on. It's systemic and complicated. It blows my mind and, as a guy, I feel bad about it. It makes me wonder if I make more than my female peers and why. And I don't know what I can even do about it. It's seriously alarming to me. #marcusbuckingham
I think my problem is that I love to cook, garden, even clean (sometimes). I want to have kids and be super mom. Oh, and I'm working on my doctorate so I can be a professor. Maybe something has to give, but I don't want it to. So, juggling I will. Even outside financial restraints (which other commenters have noted), to some women, the idea of having someone else cook for them is appalling (to have hired help take away my beloved hobby?!).
So, I'm thinking of instituting more hours in the day. #marcusbuckingham
Based on my mom's experience, I'd say he has a point. In her mid-forties, she decided to hire a bi-monthly housekeeper and convince me to do most of the cooking. (I became a vegetarian when I was 13 in an effort to annoy her. It backfired when she cheerfully told I could do all the cooking if I didn't want to eat meat.) She'd unilaterally decided that she didn't have time to put me in any sporting events (and there weren't very many in our town) at an early age. If it didn't HAVE to be done, she didn't do it. Period.
She mostly did this because the demands of family and work had gotten to the point where it was seriously impacting her health. She went on a horrible cycle of sinus infection - bladder infection - sinus infection - bladder infection for about a year and a half, mostly stress-related. (I now realize that the early stages of menopause were causing issues too.) My dad and I helped out around the house, but we were busy too (with school and work) and couldn't keep things exactly the way she wanted them. The housekeeper was more than happy to dust just so. It cost about $60/month, which was a small price to pay in comparison to doctor's visits. (I realize this figure is probably way different than what many people would be paying now, in a different area.) #marcusbuckingham
This advice about being "mindful" is really just some corporate Buddhism, which, is not bad, I don't think. I find I am happier if I can stay engaged in the moment, and not let my mind wander off into worries, lists, etc. It's a difficult skill, but worth it. I also don't think that this is the same as "making people feel artificially happy about their circumstances discourages them from trying to change them. " I think it's about being authentically engaged in what you are doing at the time.
I dunno, I'm trying to Zen out, maybe too much. ;) #marcusbuckingham
I have said before, jokingly, that I wish I had a wife at home to cook, clean, run errands and do all that stuff. You can pay someone to do those things for you but you don't have to pay your wife. I don't think he's joking though. #marcusbuckingham
@linnyt is a walking cliché: I tell my boyfriend that he needs a mom to live with him and take care of him. Not me, not a wife - a mom. Who will do his laundry and clean the house but still make him cook dinner a couple times a week and take out the trash and pick up his dirty socks. #marcusbuckingham
I call bullshit on the idea that women are thinking about domestic responsibilities while men are completely focused on professional tasks. For every woman planning what they'll put on the dinner table, there's a man thinking about either a) fantasy football b) fantasy baseball c) his Facebook mafia game.
But this Buckingham has a point about delegation. Anybody notice how quick men are to delegate in an office environment? #marcusbuckingham
Men: not as good with the multi-tasking, but equally as distractible.
And, y'know, what if the presentation is just really boring? What if you'd have to be a dimwit to get something out of it? Then who's the fool - the person giving it rapt attention or the one making productive use of their time?
The Thanksgiving example pisses me off, though. It's probably true that not very many men plan their holiday chores during meetings. But I bet that's because men don't take on half as many holiday chores as women do. Gee, maybe it's the unequal work load at home that's the problem. #marcusbuckingham
@KLondike5: The holiday chores that women (including myself) take on require extensive planning. We need to shop, decorate, prepare meals. My husband and the other men in the family wash dishes and take out the trash. So of course they're not sitting in their offices writing checklists and brain storming. They know from the get go what they'll be doing and when. #marcusbuckingham
@Bitingpika: Men shamelessly claim incompetency to get out of "menial" tasks. "I'm not good with Excel. Can you update this spreadsheet?" I'd adopt that tactic, but it'd get me fired really quickly because of my vagina. #marcusbuckingham
@Gumbina80: Yep, yep, yep. My hubs is pretty competent but he doesn't plan ahead for shit. Washing dishes, taking out trash, paying bills are his bailiwick, everything else is managed by me. Even if he does something more, it's because I delegated to him.
And holidays, birthday parties, vacations - where lots of planning and staging is involved? Forget about it. #marcusbuckingham
Women have more roles in society--roles whose expectations directly clash with one another. Women are not worse jugglers: We have more balls (insert pun here) and those balls are magnetically repellent to each other. #marcusbuckingham
I remember seeing a speaker - a woman, can't remember her name - on public television years ago, long before the whole Strengthsfinder idea, making Buckingham's points and then some.
She didn't advocate outsourcing your whole life per se but she said to figure out what tasks you hate to do the most and delegate/outsource/eliminate as many of them as possible, so you can focus on the things you like to do, thereby maximizing your happiness and feelings of success.
She also said that it's important to do things you love, and it's important to make a living. If you can do them both at the same time, you're very lucky. If you can't, do something you at least like for a living and make time for the stuff you love in your personal life.
I think that's pretty practical advice, not Pollyanna-ish, or shaming people for not being happy enough, and doesn't assume that feminism has made women dissatisfied. #marcusbuckingham
@KLondike5: She didn't advocate outsourcing your whole life per se but she said to figure out what tasks you hate to do the most and delegate/outsource/eliminate as many of them as possible, so you can focus on the things you like to do, thereby maximizing your happiness and feelings of success.
Which is a nice idea if the tasks you hate to do the most are optional (as opposed to, say, washing dishes) or if you have someone to whom to delegate the tasks, which many people do not. #marcusbuckingham
I'm hardly middle-class at this point: underemployed, no paid benefits...etc. I have eddumacation and some ambition and would like to go back to school. Even under these admittedly tight financial circumstances I outsource some of my personal and professional tasks so that I focus on my goals and responsibilities. Cleaning my home takes way more time than I have and I get easily distracted doing it - so I hire someone to do the deep cleaning once a month. I'd rather live without a new item of clothing for a season than live in a messy place. Also I have a collective of like minded women associates that I can hire to handle some of my other tasks and vice-versa (I do marketing). It's great to have this group of resourceful women in my network because they get "it". I grew up in a home where success was being able to manage everything around you. Eventually I refused that way of thinking because it led to a breakdown and therapy. I am all the more happier to pay someone capable the little extra I have so I can peace of mind to focus on things that really matter to me. #marcusbuckingham
@doodley is not amused: Well, if you don't live alone you can have someone else in the household do the dishes, in exchange for a job you find less odious. It seems obvious, but I think a lot of people, especially women, take on work they could ask someone else to do just because they have it in their heads that it's their responsibility as the wife/mother/lady of the house.
And getting outside help isn't necessarily a full-time thing. Lots of average-income people use services like tax preparers, movers, or carpet cleaners when they could probably do the jobs themselves, if they had the time or inclination.
And most people use hairdressers, mechanics, and dry cleaners nowadays, but it wasn't always that way. We just got acclimated to it.
But I get what you're saying completely. I would love to have a once-a-week housekeeper. It would really improve my quality of life. But I can't swing it financially at this point. #marcusbuckingham
@doodley is not amused: or if you have the money to outsource it in the first place. plus, people in general are too controlling, and when you outsource it, you let go of the control and trust someone else, and that doesn't always work for some people.
case in point: my parents outsourced lots of chores they didn't want to do to the kids, only for them to discover that we didn't do it their way. #marcusbuckingham
House cleaning, grocery shopping, kid's birthday parties, all outsourced. You can't do everything, so don't fall into the trap of trying. Instead, find the moments in each aspect of your life that invigorate you, and imbalance your life toward those.
Really? Is this woman serious? Not everyone is a senior partner at Ernst & Young. Not everyone can afford to outsource all the unpleasant tasks in their lives. It's not about whether we choose to forego scrapbooking our children's lives (and, as an aside -- for many women, scrapbooking is not an obligation, it's something they enjoy that relieves the stress of all the other crap). It's about the basic things that have to happen on a day-to-day basis to keep our lives vaguely functional -- grocery store, dry cleaners, laundry, whatever. For many of us, if we do not do these things, they do not get done because there is no one else to do them and we can't afford to hire someone to do it for us.
I'd love to do only the invigorating things. Does anyone know a housekeeper/errand runner/personal assistant who wants to work for me for free? #marcusbuckingham
It's only really realistic if you're wealthy or if labor is abnormally cheap, as it was when people last commonly had that much household help. Heck, we can't even afford a babysitter for an evening out. Teenagers expect $10 an hour, and forget getting someone for daytime; nannies want more. Frankly, I'd love a housekeeper, but the amount of money we could afford to pay is nothing anyone in her right mind would work for, even if there weren't so many employment-related legal hassles to manage. #marcusbuckingham
@DontFearTheReaper: You know what else, too, I think it reinforces the disconnect between the work and the person doing it. When corporations "outsource," they usually mean that they hire people in third-world countries to work for a pittance. They don't have to see the problems that causes, so it seems like a simple solution. If this man suggests outsourcing, he may have in mind that women could "just" hire someone to work for a pittance, ignoring the fact that certain tasks have to be done in person, by Americans subject to labor laws, and that unless you have a great deal of money, you simply can't "just" deal with things that way. #marcusbuckingham
I don't think turning down a big assignment/promotion because you're thinking about having kids is the worst thing in the world. OK, you aren't pregnant yet, but if it's a really long-term thing, it stands to reason that you could be out of commission when they really need you. #marcusbuckingham
@Ultraprison!: How about the notion that, being that the species itself will not continue without the participation of women, making pregnancy not a deal-breaker for promotions.
@SomeAuthorGirl: Very true, but the Facebook exec was talking about women turning down promotions, not being passed over for them. I guess I was thinking more about women who are not planning on continuing at their jobs after they have kids. #marcusbuckingham
@Ultraprison!: I meant more that women turn them down because they know perfectly well that if they're open about a desire to have children, it 9 times out of 10 won't go well for them.
(Sorry about that, wasn't totally clear, mustn't Jezebel at work, SomeAuthorGirl.... oh, who are we kidding?) #marcusbuckingham
10/23/09
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And do something else?
Like, the dishes? #marcusbuckingham
10/23/09
I'm currently pregnant and constantly searching for challenging assignments at work only nobody will give them to me. (This is not a change from times when I am not pregnant, I should note.)
FFS, with my first pregnancy I worked full time, went to grad school full time, and tried to keep the house clean. I CAN multitask. Why won't anyone believe me? #marcusbuckingham
10/23/09
They have to be implying that this is due to maternity leave. Even though maternity leave is usually only about, what, 3 months? And most women can't afford to take off more time even if they wanted to.
That hardly seems like enough time for that kind of wage gap to still exist if that's what it's supposedly based on. And I think it's telling that we think that taking time off for motherhood somehow means you shouldn't get the same pay for the same work. It's not about different levels of experience, it's about literally not being paid the same when you have the same qualifications.
I do understand that someone who takes off 5 years of working in an office can't just come back in at a higher level than they left. But that's often not what happens. It's like women have to start over completely. As though motherhood doesn't count, and I find that odd. And it shows a very ingrained sexism and hierarchy of what we deem "important". We're all supposed to want to be mothers, but if we take the time to do it, we're financially screwed. Yay? #marcusbuckingham
10/23/09
Actually, I don't think you do.
I think you wish you did. #marcusbuckingham
10/23/09
And it makes you wonder, do those people really:
A) think that women should be solely responsible for bearing the costs of keeping the population of Amurricans replenished, even though it benefits us all (including women like me, who don't really want kids), or;
B) think that the American population should just come to an end, or thinks more lax immigration policies could keep our population growth steady, so that Americans don't have to do the actual reproducing.
C) Oh, and of course, I can't forget the near-eugenics argument-- only women who are wealthy enough to afford to take a financial and career hit should be reproducing anyway. Aka not poor single moms, or poor people. #marcusbuckingham
10/23/09
If the answer is maternity leave (probably among other things, including sexism), then would more men taking paternity leave level the gap? I can understand a company giving fewer raises to people who don't work for three months, so in my mind the solution would be for more men to take time off to raise children, have a more active role in parenting, etc. This is of course assuming that men would face the same negative career consequences for taking such leaves. #marcusbuckingham
10/23/09
I don't have any data about this, but it I still have lots of friends in rural areas who take a few years off (until the kids go to school), and my sense anecdotally is that taking 1-2 years off was pretty common even 5 years ago... if so, that could really be skewing both statistics and perceptions of older men in the workforce.
Again, no data here, so I'm genuinely curious. #marcusbuckingham
10/23/09
10/23/09
I nannied a few years ago and found this to be true for the most part now. Most women couldn't really afford to take more than that small allotted maternity leave without seriously effecting their income.
I think what bothers me is the assumption that motherhood doesn't involve any practical skills that can be applied to the professional work force. #marcusbuckingham
10/23/09
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So, I'm thinking of instituting more hours in the day. #marcusbuckingham
10/23/09
She mostly did this because the demands of family and work had gotten to the point where it was seriously impacting her health. She went on a horrible cycle of sinus infection - bladder infection - sinus infection - bladder infection for about a year and a half, mostly stress-related. (I now realize that the early stages of menopause were causing issues too.) My dad and I helped out around the house, but we were busy too (with school and work) and couldn't keep things exactly the way she wanted them. The housekeeper was more than happy to dust just so. It cost about $60/month, which was a small price to pay in comparison to doctor's visits. (I realize this figure is probably way different than what many people would be paying now, in a different area.) #marcusbuckingham
10/23/09
I dunno, I'm trying to Zen out, maybe too much. ;) #marcusbuckingham
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But this Buckingham has a point about delegation. Anybody notice how quick men are to delegate in an office environment? #marcusbuckingham
10/23/09
Men: not as good with the multi-tasking, but equally as distractible.
And, y'know, what if the presentation is just really boring? What if you'd have to be a dimwit to get something out of it? Then who's the fool - the person giving it rapt attention or the one making productive use of their time?
The Thanksgiving example pisses me off, though. It's probably true that not very many men plan their holiday chores during meetings. But I bet that's because men don't take on half as many holiday chores as women do. Gee, maybe it's the unequal work load at home that's the problem. #marcusbuckingham
10/23/09
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And holidays, birthday parties, vacations - where lots of planning and staging is involved? Forget about it. #marcusbuckingham
10/23/09
10/23/09
10/23/09
She didn't advocate outsourcing your whole life per se but she said to figure out what tasks you hate to do the most and delegate/outsource/eliminate as many of them as possible, so you can focus on the things you like to do, thereby maximizing your happiness and feelings of success.
She also said that it's important to do things you love, and it's important to make a living. If you can do them both at the same time, you're very lucky. If you can't, do something you at least like for a living and make time for the stuff you love in your personal life.
I think that's pretty practical advice, not Pollyanna-ish, or shaming people for not being happy enough, and doesn't assume that feminism has made women dissatisfied. #marcusbuckingham
10/23/09
Which is a nice idea if the tasks you hate to do the most are optional (as opposed to, say, washing dishes) or if you have someone to whom to delegate the tasks, which many people do not. #marcusbuckingham
10/23/09
I'm hardly middle-class at this point: underemployed, no paid benefits...etc. I have eddumacation and some ambition and would like to go back to school. Even under these admittedly tight financial circumstances I outsource some of my personal and professional tasks so that I focus on my goals and responsibilities. Cleaning my home takes way more time than I have and I get easily distracted doing it - so I hire someone to do the deep cleaning once a month. I'd rather live without a new item of clothing for a season than live in a messy place. Also I have a collective of like minded women associates that I can hire to handle some of my other tasks and vice-versa (I do marketing). It's great to have this group of resourceful women in my network because they get "it". I grew up in a home where success was being able to manage everything around you. Eventually I refused that way of thinking because it led to a breakdown and therapy. I am all the more happier to pay someone capable the little extra I have so I can peace of mind to focus on things that really matter to me. #marcusbuckingham
10/23/09
And getting outside help isn't necessarily a full-time thing. Lots of average-income people use services like tax preparers, movers, or carpet cleaners when they could probably do the jobs themselves, if they had the time or inclination.
And most people use hairdressers, mechanics, and dry cleaners nowadays, but it wasn't always that way. We just got acclimated to it.
But I get what you're saying completely. I would love to have a once-a-week housekeeper. It would really improve my quality of life. But I can't swing it financially at this point. #marcusbuckingham
10/23/09
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10/23/09
Oh, do I know how that goes. #marcusbuckingham
10/23/09
case in point: my parents outsourced lots of chores they didn't want to do to the kids, only for them to discover that we didn't do it their way. #marcusbuckingham
10/23/09
Really? Is this woman serious? Not everyone is a senior partner at Ernst & Young. Not everyone can afford to outsource all the unpleasant tasks in their lives. It's not about whether we choose to forego scrapbooking our children's lives (and, as an aside -- for many women, scrapbooking is not an obligation, it's something they enjoy that relieves the stress of all the other crap). It's about the basic things that have to happen on a day-to-day basis to keep our lives vaguely functional -- grocery store, dry cleaners, laundry, whatever. For many of us, if we do not do these things, they do not get done because there is no one else to do them and we can't afford to hire someone to do it for us.
I'd love to do only the invigorating things. Does anyone know a housekeeper/errand runner/personal assistant who wants to work for me for free? #marcusbuckingham
10/23/09
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Obviously, I just fell off the crazy train. ;) #marcusbuckingham
10/23/09
10/23/09
(Sorry about that, wasn't totally clear, mustn't Jezebel at work, SomeAuthorGirl.... oh, who are we kidding?) #marcusbuckingham