Our Lady of the Massacre

loubatie

loubatie

thwarted

Charlotte Corday

I'm really not okay with calling anyone's system of belief "shit" or "poo"

clevernamehere

KurticusMaximus

If you're an American, you might be fine when someone simply criticizes your country's government. You might even criticize it yourself. But, if someone else just came along and started calling the entire nation a pile of worthless, hypocritical shit, you'd be justified in being offended by that.

It's one thing to recognize the failings of institutions you belong to, and to accept valid criticisms of those institutions. But it's quite another to have someone come along and declare those institutions to be worthless shit, especially when they concurrently fail to present a very well-thought out argument as to why it's "shit."

KurticusMaximus

This is not the case. Abortion and euthanasia are total no-nos no matter what the situation. Although the Pope has spoken out against capital punishment, the Catholic Church believes that the death penalty is acceptable in certain situations. Furthermore, the Pope has said one can be for the death penalty and remain a good Catholic. No such compromise was made for pro-choicers.

Rusty

sanibelly

JustZoot

A sin is only a sin if you know it's a sin and do it anyway. So it would depend on whether or not the 12 year-old you knew that you shouldn't receive Communion. Even then, if you weren't Catholic, it's likely that you weren't entirely aware of the gravity and nature of the sin, even if someone had previously told you that non-Catholics shouldn't receive Communion.

KurticusMaximus

Yes, according to the Church, that was a sin. But, believe it or not, even the Church acknowledges that nobody on Earth knows who's going to Hell and who's going to Heaven.

Cardinal Ratzinger even acknowledged possibility of universal salvation. So maybe everyone goes to Heaven. There's no way to know.

KurticusMaximus

1. The key phrase is "If bloodless means are sufficient." The Church acknowledges that there are conditions under which the state would be justified in executing an "aggressor." That isn't to say the death penalty isn't wrong- if it is unnecessary, and today it is, then it is wrong. But there are degrees to evil, according to the Church, so some things are just worse than others.

2. You are right. But even in the year with the most executions on that list, there were only 199 executions. Even if we recognize the absence of reliable statistics, I think we can still agree that there were probably a lot more than 200 abortions in America last year, regardless of why we don't have the exact number.

We don't know the exact number of executions China performed last year, either, but that doesn't mean we can't reasonably claim it was probably a lot.

3. The Church does teach that everyone should receive Reconciliation before they receive Communion, which is why most churches have Reconciliation services on Saturday. Furthermore, the Church only teaches that all humans are, on most days, living in a state of venial sin. Mortal sins are, theoretically, more rare, and therefore not everyone is always living in a state of mortal sin.

Venial sins are absolved during the Mass (if you're a Catholic, that happens during the "I confess to Almighty God..." part, fyi), so even if you miss Reconciliation, you're pretty much taken care of.

People who know that they are living in a state of mortal sin, however, are supposed to refrain from receiving, and priests are generally supposed to refrain from giving them Communion if the priest knows of their un-confessed sin.

There are practical restrictions to this, though. Most priests don't know about every sin on a person's conscience. And in a lot of cases, if a priest does know that a parishioner is living with mortal sin, he will still provide Communion but may privately encourage the person to go to Reconciliation next week, rather than publicly embarrass them during the Mass.

Which leaves the thing with the politicians. There are a couple aspects to that argument. First, it's not a single act, it's an ongoing state. A politician doesn't support abortion in one act, he does it constantly. As a public figure, he is basically always, if passively, maintaining the legality of abortion.

So even if he did go to Confession, if he came out of the confessional and maintained his public support for abortion, the state of sin would remain. Plus, Reconciliation only works in the first place if you intend to avoid that sin in the future.

Which is also why politicians are held to be more culpable than normal people (like the people who "provide or have them"). A politician has a greater effect on the issue- he isn't simply providing or obtaining one abortion at a time, he's facilitating the legality of abortion as a whole.

Ultimately, the Church teaches that abortion is simply worse than the death penalty- both fundamentally and because it is more common. So it only makes sense that the Church would focus more attention on abortion than on the death penalty.

KurticusMaximus

shavethatsoulpatch

Atheism makes me happy.

Doomsday

remedios

Also, "hundreds of thousands" of abortions every year isn't a legit number, either. There aren't good numbers because medical records are private

The US executed 41 people last year because some states don't have a death penalty statute, some have a semi-permanent moratorium and, until the recent Supreme Court decision upholding the use of lethal injection as a method, there was a 7-month nationwide moratorium. The number has been, in recent years significantly higher.

While you are correct in your assertion that one is not supposed to take Communion while in a "state of sin," it is also the position of the Church tat we are all in a state of sin until we participate in the sacrament of Reconciliation. However, I have yet to attend (or to know of almost anyone attending) a church that enforces the teaching that one must confess before taking Communion, so that argument is a little disingenuous.

So, while you are not completely incorrect in your defense of Catholicism, my opinion that they are hypocrites for threatening to refuse Communion to politicians who support abortion rights (yet, notably, don't actually provide abortions or have them) and don't do so for politicians that not only support the death penalty as a matter of policy but have the power to do something about it on an individual level stands. But I feel this way about a lot of religions.

Megan

@sanibelly: but the Church isn't the majority everywhere. In the last century, clergy in Latin America had to go into hiding or risk immediate execution. Romero was shot down in the middle of MASS holding the consecrated body of Christ. The Church - the institution - is an institution of considerable power and freedom in some places in the world - and in other places its hard to be a Catholic. Just like everything else. Also - and it may be because, in conjunction with some pretty liberal beliefs I consider myself a faithful Catholic - I can't really see how insulting the Church as a whole wouldn't insult its members.

@Zlevee: absolutely. Mark me firmly in that camp.

cellybelly

The pope ≠ Catholicism for most people.

speaksoapcube

bria

Zlevee

Polka.Your.Eyes.Out

in the words of linda richman-
"i'll give you a topic: the holy roman empire was neither holy, nor roman, nor an empire. discuss."

Polka.Your.Eyes.Out

sanibelly

nothanks

This is an opinion from someone who grew up close to the church.

I'm not picking on catholicism, major flaws exist in all world religions but as this is a post about catholicism thats what im commenting on - the behavior of the church dosent in any way reflect on catholics or the faith - but continuing to support a corrupt overbearing institution does

Its the economic situation that pisses me off the most - don't preach to me about sacrifice and helping the poor when you have the GDP of a small country sitting in the vaults of the Vatican that could be put to incredible use but you're just too greedy to do that.

nothanks

Thanks from this corner as well - although i do not agree with everything that the Church does by a long shot, its an institution of over a billion individuals. In any group of a billion individuals, there are going to be some crazies, some fanatics, some angels, some conservatives, some liberals, etc. No one is doing newsstory on the run of the mill folks at my parish who are just trying to get by like every other human being on the planet. The Church is, ultimately, a human institution, and humans are decidedly fallible.

Not to get all Gandhi, but if I want to see the Church change (as opposed to fall down around our heads) I have to be a part of that change. So I get involved in my Church, teach religious ed.

One question, if anyone is still reading this thread - do you think the way the Church is handled in the media and sweepingly regarded as conniving assholes would be tolerated if people were talking about Jews, or Sunni Muslims, or Hindus,etc.?

I mean, if someone called Judaism a bunch of poop, wouldn't there be an uproar? Why is it ok because its the Church? I AM the Church, and I'm prochoice, and I oppose the death penalty, and I have problems with leadership on a local and global level, and I wouldn't have chosen Ratzinger if anyone had asked me, but...is it ok to be racist? elitist? condescending? rude? because it just Catholicism?

cellybelly

Thanks very much. Very informed response.

bria

Her_royal_Highness

First off, 41 people were executed in America last year. Now, while there aren't really readily available statistics on the number of abortions performed in America (that don't come from biased sources), it's safe to say that the number is in the high hundreds of thousands.

So, if a person or group believes that both abortion and the death penalty are wrong, clearly one is significantly more prevalent than the other.

Second, the Catholic Church does not believe the death penalty is wrong in principle. There are situations where a government would conceivably be just in executing someone, such as if that person could not be incarcerated safely. However, modern technology makes such situations extremely rare, and perhaps impossible, hence the belief that the death penalty is now wrong.

Abortion, on the other hand, is never okay according to the Church, but that is clearly not an argument that needs/should be made here.

The point is, in the Church's eyes, abortion and the death penalty simply aren't similar cases. To be blunt, according to the Church, abortion is much worse because it is inherently wrong and, on top of that, it is significantly more common.

And as for the whole Communion thing, the arguments behind banning politicians from receiving are theological, not political. Some Catholic theologians argue that, since Communion is God, it is wrong to receive it when one is in a "state of sin."

It's not just a publicity stunt, nor is it really something that can be criticized without some sort of theology to back your case up. There are legitimate theological arguments to be made against that view- for example, many believe that Communion is a healing event, and that those "living in sin" are in as much or more of a need of such healing than those who aren't.

There are a lot of legitimate cases to be made against a lot of the Church's views, but to make those cases, you actually have to admit that there are arguments behind the Church's views, and in order to have a reasonable position you have to address those arguments.

@PennyArcadia: And, for the love of God, Papal Infallibility doesn't mean everything he says is infallible. It means he has the capacity to declare certain teachings infallible. It's only been used once, and that was to define the Assumption of Mary. It's not exactly the huge ego trip everyone makes it out to be.

KurticusMaximus

Cfredl54

whyknot

Sounds so progressive. What a wonderful priest.

I was raised Catholic. I don't think anyone in this thread has mentioned that Catholicism is very sexist. I do take a bit of offense as saying "Catholicism is shit." It's like saying democracy is shit, or Buddhism is shit, or the military is shit... just too broad and sweeping to be accurate.

bria

meatisthenewbread

I will always love the priest for that reminder!!!!!

BeachLover

PennyArcadia

Oh if I did believe I'd be in the Church, trying to change it. But I'm a godless heathen, always been one. At age 3 I looked at my aunt and just went "You know, I don't believe in god. I don't believe in something I can't see". So I didn't choose to be a Catholic because I'm an all-or-nothing type of person; I'd never do confirmation and first communion and all that stuff like my husband did, and then never set foot in a church again. He says he is Catholic, but he doesn't practice it.

That said, I support the work that some of the Church does. I'm down with the Theology of Freedom, Theology of Hope, and Social Gospel cause I'm a commie pinko at heart.

Jan74

*It may sound a bit ironic that I'm still a Catholic even though I hate the church sometimes but I still go to church because I believe in the basics of the faith. I disagree on a lot of the church's views on social and current issues though.

Bohoinparadise

the memorexe

As for Kennedy, his Catholicism has always seemed like a shtick anyway. Whether you agree or not, if you were invited to a major event like this you should respect the rules of your hosts.

And technically you're not supposed to take communion if you missed even one Sunday mass without going to Confession.

cessair

Her_royal_Highness

kwyjibeau

it really pissed me off when el popo came to town and the catholic church in NYC was on the local news explaining how they had to flog crappy popemobillia to the flock in order to pay for padre's security costs - i thought ... hold on dont these guys own half of downtown? cheap gits

nothanks

I love how they leave war and indifference to other matters in the "culture of life" to the "discretion" of worldly leaders, but this--nope.

George Bush the morally incompetent piece of shit is blessed for his idiotic views on all family planning (even in countries where AIDS and patriarchal abuse of women are rampant--good idea!), and given a free pass for playing fast and loose with finite blood and treasure.

Makes me sick in a way words can't express because I have to correlate THAT--and impotent rage at moral hypocrites in the here-and-now--with the fear that THEY'LL be rewarded in the afterlife too (or at least, that I'll be punished for not voting the way my mother does--for the anti-abortion guy!). Even with my sneaking inescapable belief that I'm going to be damned somehow--how can I pledge my loyalty or waste my tears and frustration for this organization?

marie123

TeeEmEff

Blargh...

TeeEmEff

@Glaven: i took her statement to mean the scenario of running him the wafer. it looks like a statement taken way out of context which is par for the course for the Times.

Sweet Mother of Jesus, WHAT am I doing defending the Archdiocese of Washington? I need a fourth glass of wine.

J.D.Regent

At first, on April 30, archdiocese spokeswoman Susan Gibbs denied that Mr. Kennedy had partaken, saying such a scenario "wouldn't be possible."

Glaven

I really REALLY don't love the church's stance on condom usage. I guess one of the priests issued a recent statement saying it was okay to use condoms in a marriage where one partner has AIDS because couples shouldn't necessarily have to abstain from marital relations. But, in general, it's still discouraged, AIDS or no. I guess getting AIDS is God's punishment for sex outside marriage?

goldengirl11

Its called respect...it should be applied in any/all circumstances

Her_royal_Highness

govgurl2009

That being said, I always thought that htis "denying communion" business was f*ed up. For one thing, as the article points out, it's not consistently applied to death penalty supporters. And for another, the church just shouldn't reach its arm in like that, it's not their place anymore. I'm pro-life, Catholic, and I take communion every sunday and if that means I'm violating Roman policy or going to hell, well, so be it.

govgurl2009

gerbilsoutofexile

briardahl

Erie

Jamie Sommers

Jamie Sommers

Notes from the underwhelmed

jenalicious

Her_royal_Highness

arodriguez.romero speaks java

Notes from the underwhelmed

Her_royal_Highness

Yeah, I feel conflicted about her as well for many reasons, but I respect her for the fact that she was unabashedly human with her (many) faults. She didn't try to portray herself as a saint (haha, cause now people want to make her one).

That said, the boozy socialist feminist abortion-getting Dorothy would have made an awesome Jezebel.

BabyfaceStanwyck

Notes from the underwhelmed

J.D.Regent

I am accusing you of doing that btw...just making a statement.

Her_royal_Highness

andBegorrah

arodriguez.romero speaks java

mepo

J.D.Regent

J.D.Regent

TrixieBelden

Seriously, we need some more outspoken upstarts like Dorothy Day (I have mad admiration for her and I'm agnostic).

BabyfaceStanwyck

I refuse to take communion. I go as far as getting up and sitting down when the priest tells me to at a wedding, but that is where I draw the line. I don't repeat "in the name of the father, the son, and the holy ghost" or "amen" or raise my hand all Hitler-like either (seriously, what is it with the hand that only some priests do that?)

I was baptized but that was it. Never set foot in a Catholic church, or any church, again unless they got some baroque alfrescos I wanna check out.

Jan74

J.D.Regent

this is some moonie bullshit. the pope didn't like decree that pro choice people/politicians can't take communion under penalty of death or something. it's a little more complicated than that (NOT DEFENDING the pope, please understand. just clarifying)[www.time.com]
In a totally unofficial statement in response to a media question he was like yeah politicians who vote for pro abortion policy aren't in communion with the church. but the actual teachings leave it up to the individual conscience of the politician. Every word out of the mouth of whomever happens to occupy the office of the Bishop of Rome is not infallible; most of it is not even very important.

The guy they quote in that article made a point to say Teddy Kennedy was TOO FAT to get up for communion so they had to bring it to him. ONLY this right wing rag would get away with that as "journalism." Nancy Pelosi and a million other catholic pro choicers get public communion all the time. Not news!

J.D.Regent

briardahl

PinkSoxHat

nodoubt9203 [אִיזָבֶל]

Lymed in Cali

PinkSoxHat

Being a pro-choice Catholic is my own personal little way of telling them to shove it. What are they going to do, excommunicate me? Bah. They're going to have to face it: people aren't scared of them anymore.

TheFormerJuneBronson

Notes from the underwhelmed

Khrushchev