The key in this, though, is that the treatments are seperate. The treatment to keep puberty from setting in does /not/ result in sterility, and has few known side effects (And certainly no more than the antidepressants that would probably be needed without it!)

The decision to start on puberty-inducing hormones comes /much/ later, usually around 15-16, if not later.

I had SRS almost a year ago (June 19, 2007) and while I was there, a girl who was only just barely of age had her surgery. I'd kill to have her body, and it was clear that it was very much the right choice for her.

So, in short, remember not to tie the two treatments together! The puberty-blocker, hormones, and surgery are all seperate and distinct steps in the overall process.

Jamie

yup.

super late to this party, just wanted to pop back and say that we do things that alter our hormones all the time, including putting pretty young kids on birth control or hormones (sometimes to treat problems, sometimes because young kids are fertile and sexually active).

i think people who responded to this with fear should re-examine why, exactly, it sounds wrong to them. suspending puberty is a lot more reversible than testosterone injections or estrogen in meats.

and it could save lives or at least drastically improve them.

inchworm

If I had a child who was transgendered, I would be very open to letting them live in the gender that makes them feel the most comfortable. But I have to say, I cringed when listening to this story, only because the doctor says point blank that the combination of hormones to prevent puberty and then the synthetic hormones later will cause sterility.

I don't think it would be my role as a parent to take that option away from my child, nor do I think that a prepubescent (or even pubescent) child can fully grasp what that means. When I found out when I was 16 that I might have trouble conceiving someday, I thought that I would never want to have children at all. But now, I want to have children and I want to have them myself. Adoption is a fine option, but I would hate to limit my children's possibility to have that experience.

katevsmothra

bria

missything

littlemoose

To those who question if this is a good idea, I have to disagree. I would kill to be able to go back and have done this.

I, like Jennifer Boylan, knew from pretty much birth that I was born into the wrong body. I've finally had this corrected, as much as possible, at 32.

What many people forget is that, especially in male-to-female transsexuals, the secondary sexual characteristics that represent puberty are irreversible.

This includes some things that will plague most transsexuals for life, like body hair, bone structure, and body shape.

By suppressing puberty, this can be avoided. Introducing feminising hormones, even years after this point, has /far/ more impact if it is not fighting against the initial puberty.

I'm 32. I have had 10 laser sessions to remove facial hair, and I was /not/, by any stretch, a hairy person. As it is, I still have to shave every 3 days or so, because I just can't afford more treatments.

So, yes. This is a good thing. There is no established long-term harm, even for people who later decide to let their physical birth gender take over; you might be surprised, though, how few people that is. The vast majority of people who undergo this treatment DO go on to full transition (if they aren't already by this point), and to surgery as soon as they can (There are no reputable surgeons who will operate on someone under 18).

Jamie

GoodMorningAngels (makes me Charlie)

i'll just say that i spent a semester last year studying sexuality and gender in Amsterdam, and that this treatment has gone on with exceptionally positive results for several years now. trans children don't generally change their minds, and are given a chance to mature while more comfortable with their identity. one dutch transboy we studied already had a girlfriend and was his school's soccer star. what we should be teaching our children is that gender is fluid, and doesn't necessarily conform to our physical bodies.

saintestella

alliebean

If I could've started transitioning before puberty, though, I would've done it in a heartbeat.

alliebean

So time is good, slow adaption is good. Science allowing the dutch kids to take pause, and to take time to understand is good. Gender is close to the core of our identities, and going in and waving tons of hormones around like a magic wand, is asking for trouble...

haptotrope

Altho actually come to think of it, I think the show used male pronouns... Cuz maybe Lisa identified as a lesbian dude rather than as MTF? I'll have to go check.

As for "confirms"... I meant it specifically in the case of the woman-identified person (Aretha) singing "You make me feel like a natural woman." Here, there's a belief in a prior gender, which is confirmed by the sexual encounter.

But as for whether "we start with ourselves and move outward," I don't think I would agree. The idea of a distinct self is always relational, no? "Distinctness" wouldn't come up as an issue if there weren't people to differentiate from... in which case, the definition of the "self" depends on these other selves for its boundaries...

Sorry to get all abstract, for those of you who aren't into this kind of thing.

GoodMorningAngels (makes me Charlie)

Reading the comments, I'm not sure how many people really understand this stuff. Not transgenderism-- I know a lot of y'all don't understand that stuff from having read most of the comments on yesterday's post, tearing my hair out all the way through. In brief, being transgendered and knowing that you've been assigned the wrong gender is completely unlike thinking you'll grow up to be a dinosaur or a mermaid or a motherfucking horse. What's it like? Well, it's like being transgendered, and the difficulty transpeople often have explaining it is because the feelings are unlike those that cisgendered people feel. That's why it's not something you have to deal with. Feel lucky.

But this method of delaying puberty is really, really good for trans youth, to my understanding. It's just a method of giving the child in question and their parents more time to consider everything. I've known-ish some people who've done it. In one instance, the kid decided she'd like to go ahead and have puberty because she just wasn't sure. No problem! She was taken off of the inhibitors and went on her merry way, playing baseball and having girlfriends and thinking. Eventually she decided she may have been right from the start, and she started back on the inhibitors and, as far as I know, transitioned in the following years when it was appropriate.

The medications don't handicap your body from ever being able to produce the hormones it would without intervention, it just halts them for a time. You can always go ahead and have puberty as scheduled if you decide to, but once you have puberty, you can't easily go back, and for some that means never being able to navigate the world as the gender they feel they are. And that's shitty.

Neutralize

clairek

BritneyCanadaWhore

this is an interesting analysis. i think sarah mick was responding to what, on a surface level, appeared to be heterosexism, and i also read the comment that way initially. it's just such a common attitude and is tiresome.
i disagree, however, with your statement that "It's the sexual encounter that confirms the gender (or even, the biological sex, in this case)." rather than "confirms," i'd be more inclined to say "is informed by," (except that that's passive voice - fail) instead of the other way around, if only because i think we start with ourselves and move outward. meaning, how i understand myself is going to inform how i react to you sexually, and ditto for you. and that's something that's fluid, imo.

BritneyCanadaWhore

1. I'm saying sex is an ASPECT of gender identification, for SOME people, at SOME times. (But moreover I definitely do not agree that gender necessarily precedes sexuality. As someone pointed out earlier--lots of small children, even infants have sexual experiences. Toddlers masturbating=hilarious but real phenomenon.)

2. The comment that "these kids are not only having to fight anatomy, but they're also having to fight those very social constructs..." actually proves my point. Everyone is always interpreting their experience in relation the socially available meanings--whether fitting in or, as you say, fighting against. I am NOT questioning the authenticity of their experience (since my main activist background is in trans issues, that would be a pretty strange stance for me to take), which is what I think you suspect? I'm saying actually just exactly what you're saying: that the set of social possibilities filter the possibilities for making meaning out of their bodily experience.

GoodMorningAngels (makes me Charlie)

lermanzo

lermanzo

BritneyCanadaWhore

librariesare4lovers

Saying that gender identification and sexual experience may be related only points to the idea that some people experience desire _as_a_man_ or _as_a_woman_ (or as, not either). Hence the famous line: "You make me feel like a natural woman." (A favorite of gender theorists, I admit.) It's the sexual encounter that confirms the gender (or even, the biological sex, in this case). People absolutely read sexual desire back onto their gender: dating a Manly Man makes some female identified people feel more Feminine... meanwhile there are also folks who experience desiring another person as something that contradicts their born-sex: cf, for a lamely executed but thought-provoking example, the character of Lisa on the L Word, a male-bodied lesbian. Lisa could have been thought of as a straight dude (male body, likes chicks)--but understood his desire for Alice as a female-for-female desire.

Sooo...to me none of that is necessarily hetero... It can be hetero, but it's far from hetero-presumptive.

GoodMorningAngels (makes me Charlie)

takebackthenightie

@alliebean: Sorry I missed your comment the first time. I'm glad you chimed in.

TruculentandUnreliable

BritneyCanadaWhore

librariesare4lovers

SarahMC

SarahMC

Anyway. As others have said, it's not inherently deterministic, and women who KNOW they are women despite contradictory anatomy -- well, they could be deluded, but, because my gender ID adheres to the basic model, so could I. No matter what, trans adults will never be 100% accepted as either gender, so why not facilitate their entrance into the "correct" one (i.e., their own identification) by delaying the biological one for a year or two. You know, if it was possible to "degender" as well, I'd be all for that. Minnie Mouse voice, begone! So long, irritating reproductive system! And it goes.

sventurata

I know that as a young child I knew I was bisexual.

And really, I doubt this is going to be a "required" treatment of kids who identify as transgendered, nor could I really see parents of doctors pushing this. Usually before they even get here they've been dealing with the disorder for years and have seen therapists to identify it as truly the kids' feelings or just they way they like to play "pretend". I also like that it only delays at first specifically to allow the kids to sort out their feelings.

This is an example of how parents can't win - if they're supportive, someone says that they are letting the kid run the show and that the kid will regret it when they "grow out of it". If they're unsupportive, then they risk trauma because omgWHY didn't you listen to the kid?

gluecake

GoodMorningAngels (makes me Charlie)

For me, it wasn't so much knowing exactly what gender/sex I felt like, just
that I've always felt wrong in my body. As I grew older, I was able to
identify what it was, but hid it from others and myself in the hopes that
it would go away because I was afraid of what it would entail for myself
and my loved ones. I'd imagine as a child, the latter doesn't really
matter as much, because you aren't aware of all those preconceived notions,
the sense of shame for being different, etc., until people try to force you
into the role that matches your factory installed equipment. I had a
number of other emotional and psychological problems due to my refusal to
admit who I was, and once I was able to come to terms with it and come out,
things have been much better and I think I'm better as a result.

I'm not done with my transition yet, and likely still have a long way to
go. A lot of it is really scary, and there's a lot of uncertainty with how
others will treat me. But, I have to be me! Most of the problems aren't
because I'm pursuing the transition to a gender opposite my birth sex, but
that I've built a life around a false identity, and I have history to go
with that. The sooner you start, the younger you are, the less of that
you'd have to worry about, not to mention the physical benefits of halting
puberty until you make the decision to start HRT.

I'm lucky I have an incredibly supportive significant other, and she
encourages me and helps me to just be myself. These children only have
their parents, and I'd hope their parents can see and understand that their
children need their love and support. They need to be themselves. They
don't need to be forced into some preconceived idea of "normal".

alliebean

BritneyCanadaWhore

However, it does make me nervous to make such a big decision on such a young body...while puberty can be a time of great trauma for trans people, to shield them from it doesn't seem to be the right choice. If a family is open enough to accept that their child is probably trans, what about using therapy as a way to deal with the trauma before they turn 18?

QueensGal

Some societies have three sex/gender categories, like men, women and eunuchs. The American context is not one of them. Does that mean some people still don't authentically feel like the male/female binary doesn't work for them? They might. But they might lack a way to make meaning out of their experience, so they do nothing. Or, they say, "Male/female doesn't work for me...what else could I be?" And they make up the word "genderqueer" because the words "gender" and "queer" are available possibilities. Is that quite the same as "eunuch"? I'd argue no, because "genderqueer" is specifically a a kind of bodily experience when you only have two options, not when you have three. (Likewise there could easily be another category that people who didn't fit into the male/female/eunuch category made...I just don't know what it is.)

But all of these comprehensions of what one's bodies _mean_ are done in the context of the available possibilities: whether choosing them or choosing against them, the possibilities for meaning (ie, the context) are inextricable from bodily experience.

GoodMorningAngels (makes me Charlie)

In yesterday's story, one psychiatrist stressed that she didn't encourage transition for everyone (though she did encourage transition for the little girl featured on the story). One child told her, "Sometimes I feel like a girl and sometimes I feel like a boy. If I can't grow up to be a woman, I could be a man, too." And she did not encourage transition. This is not something that's taken lightly. I doubt this is happening to every boy who likes Barbies.

sacapuntas

racism! now more palatable than ever!

BritneyCanadaWhore

I am so glad to be/want to be/see myself as the biological sex I was born into.

I am also glad I spent most of my time before the age 12 just seeing myself as a "kid" rather than a "girl" (or a "boy").

thenewmasses

GoodMorningAngels (makes me Charlie)

TruculentandUnreliable

lermanzo

Plus, as mentioned yesterday, sex is not necessarily easily determined and can be shaped by society (medicine) as much as gender.

Blahdy blah blah blah blah...

TruculentandUnreliable

sanibelly

ineffable.me

BritneyCanadaWhore

I mean, I sincerely doubt these men and women want to identify specifically as transgendered. It's certainly possible that some do and perhaps enjoy a more androgynous look. On the other hand, I'm sure there are plenty more that would rather just be a "she" or a "he" and not have to face reminders that nature maybe got it really wrong for them.

meli

HOLY SHIT. Okay, this has nothing to do with this post, but some woman at work just walked by and said, "Want to see what the Chinaman did to my toes?" and showed off her pedicure.

TruculentandUnreliable

And that, frankly, is not a terribly off-the-wall suggestion. It's not actually true that gender and sexuality are perfectly distinct, at least in the American context.

GoodMorningAngels (makes me Charlie)

gender is not a social construct. women has a vagina and men have a penis.

okay yes, not disputing biology, but the main idea behind social constructionism re: gender is that gender and sex are not the same thing. there's this phrase that floats around, "biology is not destiny." while i agree that in the case of transfolk there is very much a dissonance between their gender identity and their biological sex, and that this dissonance could be described as a mind/body split (another annoying dichotomy), the notion of "gender as a social construct" seeks to identify ways in which gender (let's say "masculinity" and "femininity") is assigned/determined through different behaviours, signs, signifiers (like dress, mannerisms, etc.) and how these determinations are assumed to be inextricably linked to sex. holy convoluted, batman. all this is to say, penis =/= masculinity just as vagina =/= femininity. social constructionism is interested in all the non-biological things that go into how gender is assigned and understood, as well as the assumptions we make about how much of a role biology plays in the whole mess. holy crap am i making no sense today.

BritneyCanadaWhore

But I also understand that I have no right to speak for them and I don't know what the hell they deal with since no matter how "au naturel" I present myself to the world no one would think of me as anything but an acceptable female.

nellicat

@sanibelly: this is off-topic but your comment made me think of it - did you know that they use lithium as an anesthetic in children but not adults, because the kids still have active imaginations and don't freak out when they hallucinate pink elephants and shit? i learned that from inchworm; fascinating stuff!

@TruculentandUnreliable: agreed. but isn't this method being described as a way of easing children into their own decision? when does GID diagnosis occur with this treatment? it seems a little chicken-egg, no? i think i'm gonna do some more research.

BritneyCanadaWhore

Um, I think a lot of great points are being made on the board. Again, it is REALLY tricky territory. We don't give chidren many rights in the first place, no voting, drinking, etc etc to allow them to start preparing the gender switch at 13 via hormone therapies is pretty intense. But again, I imagine its reserved for the kids who really KNOW. Not just the mildly confused lets don a dress/tuxedo for fun on the weekends.

BTW, yesterday I JUST learned that my building manager of three years Ed used to be a woman. I would NEVER guess that in a million years, granted I thought he was a slightly overstressed late 20's gay hipster. Not a late 30's FTM.

booksnotboys

meli

nellicat

@megania: I'm sure most of these kids began exhibiting "symptoms" very early. As in the previous article on the subject, the two boys in question were still toddlers when they first knew. Plus, you have to also imagine the kind of parents these kids have. I mean, it's easy to be confused about your gender when everyone around you is telling you that what you're doing is wrong - but it sounds like these parents probably full accept their children either way, making it much easier for them to choose which route is actually more comfortable for them.

@rednrowdy: It's definitely surprising, but I'm way more shocked thatthe AFA hasn't gotten hold of this and started screaming bloody murder.

meli

LatinaMasFina

TruculentandUnreliable

sanibelly

nellicat

nellicat

Lymed

buggeroff

librariesare4lovers

I can say, as a mother of a small child, sexuality is extremely important to kids and the only thing that mucks things up are the grown ups' B.S.

& I don't mean sex, I mean as part of your identity.

rosasparks

misapostrophe

kimsama

His parents are only trying to do the right thing for their kid, I know.

misapostrophe

Hey, totally off topic (don't yell at me Hortense) but is your lime-green ribbon for lymphoma, or lyme disease? I'm guessing lyme disease.

Go lime green awareness ribbons!

AmericanSplendor

Ditto to that, sisterfriend!

I think this avoids the issue of 10 year olds wanting to be horses because it delays the decision point.

I was totally into math and science as a kid, and although I'm sure my mom was worried I would become a tomboy (only because no one wants to see her kid get beat up or marginalized, we lived in a white-bread Kansa suburb after all), she never told me to do anything than what I wanted to do. I see no difference between allowing your kids to do ballet/science/sports or whatever they want and giving them time to decide what gender they want to be if they're confused.

Moral of story: give 'em time, and my mom is the shizz.

AmericanSplendor

buggeroff

has anyone read the blog by megan wallent (formerly michael)? her story of transition is amazing and interesting and really educational.

[meganwallent.com]

read about her story from the beginning. she's amazing.

lermanzo

i'm glad that alliebean is here to weigh in. she probably knows way more about it than i ever will.

lermanzo

In any case, bravo for anyone who can withstand the pressure to do what is socially acceptable when it doesn't make them happy. I can only imagine how hard they have it (god, I thought it was hard to be picked on for not being sufficiently boy-crazy when I was a teen!).

kimsama

TruculentandUnreliable

Lymed

kimsama

mbprice

sanibelly

LaMorena

imagine that you, as a woman, woke up one morning and realized that, while you thought you were a woman, that your body was expressed as male.

going through puberty for these kids can be hell, and some psychologists think it contributes to teen suicide. especially in areas without access to care or supportive parents or peers.

lermanzo

sanibelly

lermanzo

and @collen1983: the ugly middle age comment.. so not cool...

bostonpoet

mbprice

Sarasvati49

lermanzo

ineffable.me

Crazy Broad

mbprice

(I was hoping you and/or inchworm would show up!)

cate3710

Lady Skittlehattington

I don't think this is a decision that should be taken lightly by anyone, child or adult, but if delaying puberty is possible, I think that provides ample time for the child to make up their mind. Once hormones have taken hold, there's no going back, and you can't undo puberty. You can surgically alter yourself to an extent, and hormone replacement therapy often helps to feminize or masculinze you, but there are some things you can never change once puberty has run its course.

I fully support this method, and would encourage parents with transgender children (or children who may be but aren't diagnosed as such) to please consider it and listen to their children. If you can delay puberty by a few years to let them avoid decades of suffering, how could you not help them?

Also, to those who are getting gender identity confused with sexuality, the two are different. Your gender identity does not determine your sexuality, and your sexuality does not determine your gender identity. If that was the case, all lesbians would be men, and all gay men would be women. While I'd imagine this treatment does stave off some (or all) of the sexual feelings, those of us who are transsexual do not base our sexuality on whether we felt male or female. I suspect these children won't either.

alliebean

BAngieB

kimsama

cate3710

unicornplanet

tell Dolly Parton again

What if the society's idea of gender didn't exist?

vmarsismyhero

rednrowdy

mbprice

BritneyCanadaWhore

ineffable.me

coisepants

sanibelly

TruculentandUnreliable

Some say gender is largely socially constructed but I do believe there is something inherent there as well. From a very young age, I identified as female and then realized my attraction to males. If I was still the same "person" but happened to be born male, there's no doubt that I would be transgendered. This issue is very complex to those who haven't experienced it first hand.

Elevendy

The story about how her gender change was 'outed' to the extended family made me cry (in a good way).

They are planning on the hormone treatment. She's already terrified of growing into a body that doesn't reflect who she is. Think about it - puberty is stressful enough - now imagine you're developing into a man instead of the woman you KNOW you are. Yes, fucking with hormones is scary, and the second part of the treatment means that if the new gender is chosen then the child will be sterile, but if you'd heard the story you'd understand why parents of these children would choose this path.

LittleBlackFly

It sounds (at least the speaker had this impression) like some activists want parents to skip this hormone treatment and go straight to gender re-assignment procedures. Since there do seem to be people who said they were the opposite gender when they were young but then identified with their biological gender, I think parents and the medical field need to be cautious.

SVreader

"The hormone blockers are the first stage of the treatment, but there's a second stage that's possible. Once children have postponed puberty for three or four years, at around age 16 they can choose to begin maturing sexually into the opposite gender, the gender they want to become. To do this, they begin taking the hormones of the opposite sex. For males, taking estrogen at this point will bring on breast and hip growth - and all the attributes physical and emotional of females. The reverse will happen for girls who take testosterone. Spack says this treatment can help make an adult transgender male almost indistinguishable from a biological male in terms of physical appearance.

"We can make it possible that they can fit in in the way they want to. It is really quite amazing," he says.

If, however, puberty is not blocked - if it is allowed to happen naturally and sexual maturity takes place on time - fitting in as a transgender adult is more difficult. An adult man who chooses to become a woman by taking estrogen will still tower over other women. He'll have larger hands and feet, a pronounced brow, and facial and body hair that will need to be removed. These are physical attributes that can set a transgender person apart and make day-to-day life more difficult."
--NPR

bluelola

I'm conflicted about this, too, but it has more to do with the medical policing and understanding of gender going awry than anything else. I think that this is right for some children in some circumstances. My concern is trusting physicians to determine which circumstances those are.

TruculentandUnreliable

babzie

I don't want to claim any gender confusion and I know I'm probably simplifying the issue ... but I feel like I can relate to Boylan's shirt story. I went through a small phase, when I was probably ten or eleven, where I was convinced that men had it better and women's lives were horrible. I wanted to grow up to be just like my dad. I think I even told my mom that, if I ever had kids, I would be their dad and someone else could be their mom. My dad, after all, got to take us hiking and exploring while my mom stayed behind and made sandwiches. His life looked a lot more fun. I think I was just really immature at the time, but if you had asked me back then, I would have chosen to be a boy ... but I LOVE my life as a woman now.

Like I said, I know I'm oversimplifying it. I'm glad there are psychologists involved, but it still makes me very uncomfortable. I don't think most kids are equipped to make that kind of decision.

megania

But yes, I can't imagine being a teenager without the raging hormones and discovery of your sexuality.

LaMorena

Emee

i think its almost impossible to understand unless you're actually going through it. i cant imagine what it must be like.

jenalicious

"a worrying. Maybe I'm just intolerant/close-minded/etc, but I don't think it's a good idea to sign up every little kid who says he or she feels like the opposite gender for surgery."

People that are going to use this hormone therapy for their children are NOT just signing up kids that are saying they feel like the opposite gender. It is much more complicated than that and the families/children go through a lot more than just a stint of confusion.

spekkle

beatrice3000

boring diatribes

SarahMC

BioCookie

there was a show on oprah about trans kids/teens.. there was a 16 year old who was a transgendered female to male, who's parents allowed her to have surgery to have her breasts removed at age 14 i believe.. must take a lot of courage on behalf of everyone involved to take such steps at such a young age.

but im someone who thinks this is something they must know/feel from birth, and won't change as they get older. so maybe an early start isnt a bad one?

jenalicious

nyobserver

I was alone.

I am 19.

Sunbunny

AlannaBanana

Personally, I found "Some trans activists feel that the Dutch protocol stands between the child and an early, complete, and more efficient transition" a worrying. Maybe I'm just intolerant/close-minded/etc, but I don't think it's a good idea to sign up every little kid who says he or she feels like the opposite gender for surgery.

SVreader

AlannaBanana