Thank you very much. Like I said, it is wonderful that Jez is so awesomely supportive of the trans community.

For me, my dysphoria was very much physical. I never had a huge urge for pink things, or dolls, or dresses. Though to be honest, except for skirts/dresses, none of the rest was 'taboo' for me anyway. My family has always been very lukewarm on gender stereotypes, though had I come out as trans when I knew (IE, from about age 3) they would have freaked out.

For me, though, it was all about physicality. The closest thing I can find to describing it would be something like phantom limb syndrome. I had sensations, feelings, and needs that were stemming from body parts that just /were not/ there.

And, at the risk of being crude, no, anal didn't ease it, lol. Not even in the slightest.

But now that I have had my surgery, I feel whole in ways I never have in my life. Even with some of the (very minor!) complications I have, I wouldn't go back for anything in the world.

Jamie

I really hope that Bradley's parents will get their heads out of their asses and at least take a middle ground approach by letting the kid have the toys and colors that make him happy (even if they refuse to acknowledge him as female). Hell, pink is normal for guys these days. Go to any college bar where 'popped collars' congregate and count the pink shirts.

IndiraFallen

I think it's awesome that Jona's parents are down with her being whomever she is. If that means she continues to transition through puberty and live as a woman, or if she decides that she wishes to transition back to male, I think she will be well-supported and self-confident enough to do so. I really fear for Bradley's life, frankly.

Her Grace

Her Grace

Uglyshoe

glitteryzo

"At one point pink was considered more of a boy's color, (as a
watered-down red, which is a fierce color) and blue was more for
girls. The associate of pink with bold, dramatic red clearly affected
its use for boys. An American newspaper in 1914 advised mothers, "If
you like the color note on the little one's garments, use pink for the
boy and blue for the girl, if you are a follower of convention." [The
Sunday Sentinal, March 29, 1914.]

"There has been a great diversity of opinion on the subject, but the
generally accepted rule is pink for the boy and blue for the girl. The
reason is that pink being a more decided and stronger color is more
suitable for the boy, while blue, which is more delicate and dainty,
is prettier for the girl." [Ladies Home Journal, June, 1918]

Jill7

neitherherenorthere

asorenson470

I wanted my little cousin to be brown, as I said. I feel like false promises were made, cause I was told I was gonna have a "real baby to play with" "just like my doll". This doll I had in the little doll trolley was a brown doll. I expected my cousin to look like her, then.

So they finally bring the pasty white baby and I get disappointed. All was ok until a woman in the street told me she had a baby "just like mine", cause hers was brown and I had to point out how it was therefore a lot better than mine.

Jan74

I don't mean "butch" and "femme" playfully. I mean an actual feeling of masculinity and femininity-and all the states that are in between.

I highly recommend Fausto-Sterling's studies on gender. Her studies suggest that there are a multitude of genders, or rather a gender continuum. Great stuff.

And I can't stress enough that I do not mean for my argument to suggest that the very real experience of feeling as though you are in the "wrong" body is not valid.

sublimelazy

sublimelazy

Transgender is a defined medical disorder. It's not an opinion, a philosophical point, or a "thing."

I mean, is it someone who has permanently adopted the gender opposite the one that he/she was assigned from birth?

No, it's someone who, during gestation, underwent a genetic and/or hormonal mishap and developed the wrong body for their brain.

Can someone be a woman sometimes and a man sometimes and still be transgendered?

No.

Even if they don't identify as girls later on, they are currently.

They are or they aren't. It's not something you get over or change, nor something you pick. It isn't, as many posters seem to think, the same as play acting being a dinosaur. There is no medical condition where an animal brain is placed inside a human body.

nardo218

You can think that, until you are the butch lesbian who doesn't want to wear makeup or dresses, and see how easy it is to get a job or hell, make a friend in suburbia. It's also a fallacy that women are more accepting of gays than men are; more accepting of gay men, maybe, but not gay women. Women think their world is fluid and accepting, but it isn't; cattiness and girl-on-girl crime persists well into adulthood.

nardo218

nardo218

I eventually got over my tranny dreams and my mom confessed that she never cared that I acted and dressed up as a girl, but that she was just terrified of what would happen to me in the outside world (which was SOOO Lifetime with us crying and holding each other).

xbaddaxboomx

sublimelazy

I too agree that both sets of parents are trying to do what's right by their children. If I were the parent I would let my child identify as anything they wished to identify as, but I would stress to them the lack of importance of gender in general. In other words, I would teach my children that they don't have to be a certain gender to enjoy certain things. I would tell my son, for example, that he can be a boy and still do all the "girl" things he wants. Again, I know the thin ice on which I walk, and I do so with respect and empathy.

But I think the high number of incidents like this indicates that gender has become not only obsolete, but damaging.

My understanding of the process of changing one's gender is that one must first be diagnosed with gender identity disorder and undergo much psychotherapy (I could be wrong about this, feel free to correct me). I think that if gender identity did not exist in the first place, then the pain many people go through could be avoided. And the idea that children are trans-it seems to me that we should be careful to label them trans, when maybe they just want to be a different kind of person than that which has been proscribed by a binary (I like the term bi-polar) view of genders.

I think there is immense homophobia and heterosexism at the heart of this. And I would like to also say that wouldn't our men be better men if they were allowed to learn the lessons that are learned by playing with dolls and such? I don't know if anything I've said makes much sense, but I hope that I have said it with sensitivity and respect.

sublimelazy

Jezebabe

i am continuously impressed by people who appreciate the fluidity of gender, and by the people who ignore the names they are given for doing so.

lauralk3

I'm transgender, and this was a hearbreaking story.

What's even worse is that Zucker has been tapped to head the committee that is writing the Gender Identity Disorder section of the DSM-V, which is likely to codify his viewpoints as the standard practice for how to handle transgender people of all ages for at least the next decade.

Also on the committee is Ray Blanchard, who's theory of autogynephilia is both offensive, and completely denies the existence of either male-to-female transsexuals who identify as lesbians (me!), or female-to-male transsexuals /at all/.

These people heading up this group is simply ludicrous. It's like having Concerned Women for America of Family First heading up a committee to determine how to 'treat' homosexuality, focusing on the oh-so-effection conversion therapy.

For a good article on this situation, see Bileroco, there is also a good post on Pam's House Blend

This has gotten vitrually no coverage, it would be great to see a site like Jezebel cover this injustice.

Jamie

I (who am white) wanted to be black as a kid.

To the extent that when my mom was pregnant, when I was about 4, I repeatedly asked whether our new baby could possibly be black, and why not, and what we could possibly do to obtain a black baby instead of the boring white one apparently cooking in my mom's womb.

I also wanted an afro and used to paint myself with markers, though I was more prone to picking purple or green.

This was the rural deep south, by the way, back in the day when white politicians wouldn't even admit that MLK warranted a holiday. Rock!

kakinston

When I was little, on the outside I 'wanted' to be a boy. On the inside, I really wanted to be a girl. I think this is because from early on I was taught that "girly is wrong." My mother despised anything that had a fruity scent, was pink, or remotely screamed girl (My little pony for example). When I went to my uncle's house they would only pay attention to my brother, and all activities usually revolved around sports and cars. I really did believe being a girl was the worst, so I pretended that I wanted to be a boy. I cut my hair short, and looked on enviously at the little girls with lip gloss rings and long shiny hair. I truly despised myself, but didn't want to be abanonded by those who loved me. It wasn't until high school when I stopped pretended and finally started acting like a 'girl.'

Truth be told, (despite the arguments about whether a color can be gender-specific) I do love pink.

standardissuelemon

15 years later she is your typical sorority-rushing cosmo-drinking Manolo-worshipping girly girl.

I'm not saying these little boys aren't transgendered, but come on. Can't we just let kids be kids? While I would have liked to grow up in a more queer-friendly environment, I'm glad my parents didn't ship me off to a shrink or encourage me to change my name the first time I expressed an affinity for short haircuts and practical shoes.

kakinston

I think it has to do with the environment you raise kids in. If you raise children in mainstream America in 2008 and they watch television, they will see pink associated with girls and blue associated with boys. If they are at all connected with popular culture, these things will start to seep in.

I wonder what our children would be like if they weren't constantly bombarded with gendered images. What happens to gender when you keep a kid reaaaallly sheltered?

whoadreambig

Jezebabe

As usual, I noticed Dr. Zucker's comparison of gender identity with racial identity:"Suppose you were a clinician and a 4-year-old black kid came into your office and said he wanted to be white. Would you go with that? ". I lived for a year in college with a dark skinned biracial woman who was raised by her white mother in a white neighborhood. She did not consider herself African American or Black and definitely did not relate to African American women, but she did look very Black. She did

Jezebabe

stuntfrau

laddibugg

Moreover it seems that the people who are commenting about wanting to be a little mermaid or dinosaur aren't really negating the idea of identity mutability in children but illustrating the point that "children's play is children's work" (a Piagetian concept).

And thus maybe we should be looking at what this type of play is actually an expression of. Like if being a dinosaur is a way to be in control of your world (empowerment). Or if a boy playing with Barbie dolls is expressing his desire to actually BE a girl or rather that there is some quality of "female identity" that he is drawn to.

It seems more like there should be a focus of "gender literacy" (improvised term) in which expression, whether it be type of toys, preferred colors, imaginative play, should be viewed as an coping strategy reflecting developmental processes.

Moreover I think that gender issues are difficult because of society's tendency to place this social problem on the burden of the individual. Thus ubiquitous constructs such as gendered bathrooms reinforce a universal gender binary and consequently transfer this "problem" to the individual.

Freshprincess50

Xavoc

So maybe these kids should be allowed to use whatever pronoun feels right to them, even if that changes as they grow older.

CloudsInMyCoffee

loubatie

you can read about it at this link: [insideindonesia.org]

I think the implications are incredible. All of these genders are socially acceptable. It's heartbreaking to read about a society with such a healthy gender attitude when compared to American society.

hnpeace

loubatie

dr.funke

freestylewalker

I have a 2.5 y/o boy who is obsessed yes obsessed w/cars, trucks, construction vehicles, etc. -- not b/c we encouraged it, but b/c that's the stuff he noticed. (Now, of course, it also gets reinforced w/people buying him that as toys, which he loves.) He loves playing w/imaginative toys like blocks and Legos too -- but tends to build trucks and bridges for trucks to go under. From other moms of boys, I know his behavior is far more typical of little boys than little boys who want to be girls.

That said, not every child expresses the norm, nor should they be compelled to. This story makes me feel SO SAD for the little guy who's not being allowed to do what he loves! Whether he turns out to be transgendered for life or not. It really says a lot more about his parents than it does about him... and that stupid doctor, thinking gender = race. Hopefully the parents will hear the NPR report and reconsider.

vixenatrix

solaana

I babysit for a family with two young sons. The older son loves pink, Dora the Explorer, and the Little Mermaid. The younger son loves Bob the Builder, trucks, and dinosaurs. And the mom tells me just to go with it, and I do. Her kids don't have anxieties, they're not weird in anyway. They're normal, and happy, they just have different interests (they both love to wrestle). The parents don't try to make them be one way, associate with one kind of people, or draw one kind of picture. They embrace and love everything about their child's identity, and that's to be commended I think.

govgurl2009

Cuntlovin

Cuntlovin

I am kind of confused with your logic... you say you want Jona to embrace herself for exactly who she is... but is determining who she is; you as an individual knowing only her birth gender, or her parents who interact with her everyday, or Jona herself who is probably the best judge of how she feels. When she gets olders there are no garuntees one way or the other she will look anyway. We have a conception that many Trans individuals pass poorly...they do not, its just some as passing so well we don't know it and thus don't see them as Trans. Jona may be like some trans women and have fine enough features passing is never an issue...and if Jona does not pass well the bullying and insecurity isn't coming from her being Trans, its coming from people being intolerent of Trans. What we should be concerned about is why other parents are letting the children harass and attack those who are gender varient.

Cuntlovin

The issue of a transgendered kid is very tangly. As great as Jona may feel right now, I can't help but think his (kid's still a dude - should embrace himself for exactly who he is) parents are doing him a bit of a disservice. What happens when he gets older and can no longer pass as a cute little girl? Will he just "grow out of it", as apparently happens sometimes, or will he just be really conflicted and confused? It seems like he's being built up for an adolescence of discomfort, and very likely bullying and insecurity. I mean, if it all works out, that's awesome, but the world isn't that simple or that understanding.

If he were my kid, I think I'd try to meet him somewhere in the middle. I wouldn't care if he wanted to do ballet or play with Barbies. He could wear a dress and change the spelling of his name. But I'd never, ever start referring to him as "she", because I wouldn't want him to try and forget a very important part of who he is simply as a, well, human.

Doriane

Cuntlovin

Sorry I try to use Transgender when I am talking about the people and community in reality...I apply Transgendered when talking about the medical world because thats the language they emply which is offensive suggesting that being transgender is a condition rather than an identity...and in my frantic typing I may have swapped the two at points and I thank you for bringing this to my (our)attention, we can never be to critical of our own assumptions

Cuntlovin

Bravo to Jona's parents. And hopefully Bradley's realize that they cannot force their child to be what they want him to be.

And for real, comparing race to gender? Ugh.

ElleL

I back up Jona's parents and think that they are doing a great job. Pushing down a very core part of oneself is a recipe to depression, suicide, etc.

Also, attn all: Transgendered is an outdated term and is semi-offensive, I believe. Trangender is correct. (Transgendered seems to convey the idea that being trangender is a disease of some sort.)

juliannasays

jermom

C_Spot

elizabethgrace

dr.funke

stealthird

J.D.Regent

Shoehorning a personality into a child never works (Just ask my father trying to get my obvs homosexual brother to play baseball. He sat in the outfield and played with flowers. Pussywillows, specifically).

Behavior can be forced, but personalities are either nourished or destroyed.

mama_t

brassinpocket

I think the great thing about Jona(h)'s parents is they are letting their child be what feels the best to Jona -- and that safe space will still be there if Jona hits puberty and decides "hey I don't want to live as a girl anymore" or if Jona really is transgendered. Whereas I feel so bad for Bradley, and feel like he's getting all these messages of feeling shame that I think could permeate many aspects of his life and self-esteem going forward, and not just w/r/t gender issues.

AvantGardenia

wigglepuppy

That book was fascinating though.

theysaidwhat

jemandtheholograms

And that attitude is why I refuse to leave the Bay Area, even though it's so expensive I may soon have to move into a cardboard box.

louveciennes

blushingflower

curiousk

Noah D

Cuntlovin

Cuntlovin

dr.funke

These young people, if we're deciding that they are transgender (I think they can say who they are), are transgender girls, not boys.

laurajanine

Cuntlovin

Cuntlovin

I worked on a Zucker study doing some follow-up with GID kids he's been working with for the past 20 years. From the beginning I felt very uncomfortable with the way he and some of his fellow researchers conceptualize sex and gender. It was as if all the years of scholarship on gender theory (Butler et al.) never existed--part of the problem is the territorial nature of academics and the lack of real interdisciplinary work.

Psychiatry and psychology would benefit from some serious exploration of which constructs and behaviors get normalized and which are pathologized, but I don't see that work getting funded.

dr.funke

MissPeacock

jemandtheholograms

JDBauchery

janna

Cuntlovin

And this is to say nothing of the internalized attitudes that they may learn from people in their own families and communities.

Whereas male children are not socialized to feel lesser, unequal, abnormal, or weird in comparison to female children. Quite the opposite.

TeenageGangDeb

chanticorae

Cuntlovin

I say let the kid do what they feel is right for them. Yes they are only children, but this is part of their identity and if you can not allow a person to develop their own identity they will have issues all of their lives.

delicatedisarray

Cuntlovin

jemandtheholograms

I am thrilled Jona's parents are allowing her to just be the kid she wants to be.

The HZA

Cuntlovin

My brother, on the other hand, was a quiet, soft, and sweet little boy who often dressed up in our mom's clothes and loved dolls.

This was the early '80s, and my parents, who never went to college and lived in the sticks, handled the situation with surprising grace. They never tried to tell us "what" we were, but just let us grow up to be who we were.

I think that's all that anyone can ask of their parents - understanding, compassion, and a lack of judgment. However a child decides to identify himself, it should be accepted, and room should be given for that identity to change, whether it's a change in gender identity or a change in favorite game of make believe.

My brother and I both grew up to be mostly heterosexual, boring, married people, by the way. You can never tell.

enkyenky

wigglepuppy

...What's it like?!

treschic

And I'm talking about the negative aspects of it--where people are surprised that he's sensitive, and a good listener, and still interested in fashion. It's like people almost want to say "HA! We caught you in a lie! You must be a lousy male if you like listening and fashion. You're not a good trans at all. You're a phony!"

I think that points to something wrong with greater society's perceptions of gender as a whole. I mean, it's hard enough to struggle with your identity even if you do fit society's expectations regarding your chromosomes and gender.

tscheese

RosietheRatcheter

CorporateTool

Cuntlovin

youareasleep

janna

RomanaTwo

AnnaWintwhore

TruculentandUnreliable

..okay, it sounds like I'm trying to belittle the situation, but I am completely serious. I want a penis. For one day. ...Just to see what it's like.

treschic

Cuntlovin

LookMaNoConscience

Cuntlovin

If they're transsexuals, what happens to these kids during puberty? Does that just not happen to them?

C_Spot

TruculentandUnreliable

LookMaNoConscience

Cuntlovin

Cuntlovin

(I assume that is true. I mean, I never really wanted to be a boy. I knew I was a girl, I was female, etc. I may have enjoyed boy things, but at the end of the day, I had a strong sense of myself as a GIRL. If that's how Jona feels, then more power to her.)

snarkhunting

Why can't they tell him that he is a male, but let him play with whatever he wants? The whole having him draw a boy thing is fucked up.

CorporateTool

jenalicious

lolacat(ΩΜ)

During her senior year, she got up the nerve to ask the school if she could change in the girls locker room for gym and at first the school told her no. Then she asked the school to poll the girls and find out if they'd be comfortable with it. She won.

treschic

The most heartbreaking part was Bradley's mom. Her voice, she was so sad. She thought she was trying the right thing for her son. But it was breaking her heart. You could hear the pain and the confusion. It's just tragic bc Bradley is now pulling away from them and .. well everything. She even said he is "living a double life." So young and already hiding...

theunicorn

By describing their gender awareness with only superficial things, this article does these kids a bit of a disservice. But since they are under the care of professionals who recognize gender dysphoria for what it is (even if that one doctor is a quack who may be hurting Bradley), I think it's safe to say it's far deeper than just "I like Barbies better than GI Joes."

On a totally different note, is that Jona in the picture? She's a DOLL. I just want to snuggle her right up.

snarkhunting

Cuntlovin

TruculentandUnreliable

ArtfulSlinger

chanticorae

I know! I still have conflicted feelings about the way I left. I'm one of four kids, and my parents are both in medicine. So the whole time they were saying "it's normal, don't worry." But when I told them the bit about self-mutilation, they said "once a child verbalizes self-harm, you have to take it seriously." And since they knew that the little boy's parents didn't see eye-to-eye with me, my mom just said "Get out of there before something bad happens, and you get blamed for it."

I wonder all the time what happened, whether he'll grow up and be really screwed up from his parents' pressures to be "a boy".

gingerkidboston

SarahMC

jemandtheholograms

ineffable.me

Cuntlovin

brilliantlypromiscuous

TruculentandUnreliable

SadSam

Door

Gender issues like this occur before children really have a chance to learn racial structure, and though gender can be a societal construct too, these kids feel like they are born in the wrongly sexed body, not just that they'd like to wear dresses. They feel as female as we do, or in the reverse case, as male as men do.

HeliosHyperion

Cuntlovin

makes me proud.

jenalicious