Its ridiculous that if you buy a collared shirt, you need to wear something under it. My breasts aren't THAT large, but it is a struggle for me every morning to make sure that I am not inappropriately dressed.

mallikor

burgervixen

I don't understand...Boobs are masses of fat used after childbirth for feeding. I don't see why men's views of a woman's body dictate what we can and cannot wear to work. Perhaps if men were a little more evolved, it wouldn't be a problem.

Hell, in some cultures women don't wear shirts at all. Leave the tits to the babes!!!

amie sinn

But what does it mean that this culture is obsessed with big breasts and yet the women with them (by birth or surgery) can't find basic work clothes?

What are they for?

Are women just "pleasure model[s]"?*

Put this together with the shoe thing and it's hard not to suspect that someone thinks women don't belong in offices -- it's at the very level of the clothes.

*From Blade Runner, one of my favorite Sci Fi movies, describing a female android played by Darryl Hannah.

Seeräuber Jenny

Marseeah

BiBiVirtue

mincepie

Is it really that unusual that I was taught as a child that staring was rude?

clevernamehere

ruedebuci

Mental illness is slightly different- if someone is actively screaming, it can be hard to ignore or you could be worried about safety, but personally I try to avoid staring in general.

I don't wear revealing things to work, but I don't think that is a license to stare. And really, it is possible to not realize something is revealing or suggestive until after you leave the house, particularly if you are large breasted. Not everyone has the money or inclination to have major surgery to avoid rude behavior.

clevernamehere

I don't get it. Why would women wear something revealing to the workplace if not for the attention they expect to get?

The word is cocktease, and it's an old unfeminist idea.

ruedebuci

ruedebuci

@Milstar: You "questioned the whole objectification and lableling [sic] of women on there"? Like, there? Or in your blog? Or on Gawker? What?
Actually, many Jezebelles aren't opposed to porn, as long as it's the actor's own choice to be in the industry (and not a economy-based choice) and he or she is treated respectfully.
Posting a random porn link is still in bad taste though. If you discussed the merits of porn discussion board (really, that word group does not compute) somewhere, then you should've posted a link to that.

haguenite

People disagree with you on where the blame lies when someone stares and that makes you feel persecuted? Can you seriously not handle someone disagreeing with your words or behavior?

I know there are people on Gawker who hate Jezebel. I really don't know what their problem is but I rarely venture over there because when I do I find Gawker commentators much meaner than Jezzies. But more than one random male poster has come on here to say how Gawker was right, everyone here is evil when they are disagreed with. Jezebel does seem to attract a lot of like minded women, but I don't think anyone is attacking you for disagreeing with an alpha cat, people are just disagreeing with your viewpoint.

Alpha cats? Is that because Jezzies are mostly girls? Seriously?

clevernamehere

None of that is me. Maybe my writing isn't isn't so perfect but that does not earn me a label I should I have wear around this blog as a scarlet letter.

I'm a person with my own sense of views and opinions and to be honest I'm sorry that may or may not conform to the norms on here.

I didn't see it until now but I'll say it again: gawker was in a sense right. there are alpha cats on here and going against them makes makes you the enemy. I love my girl for who she is but reading what people have said you would think i'm the worst person on earth.

Milstar

Scal

Scal

And why should I care that you don't care about breast size? Does that somehow make you noble?

I think there is a basic standard of workplace behavior people should live up to. You can't always control your thoughts, but no matter how much cleavage a woman is showing unless she is working in the sex industry, you're not supposed to stare at her boobs, nevermind talk about her physical attributes. Not staring at people is one of those basic things small children are taught because its rude, so its not okay when women do it either. The best analogy I can come up with is if someone has a physical disability or some abnormal feature, you might have the urge to stare, but that doesn't make it okay or acceptable to make that person uncomfortable with your gaze. Your issues are you issues and while I understand it might be a struggle not to stare at a pair of DDs (or someone with cerebal palsy) it isn't acceptable.

clevernamehere

Milstar

I aceept that girls looked at me, I did find it to some degreee flattering But the bigger pt was that just bending over a stupid pos copy machine made me an object in the office.

I don't blame women for my actions. I only say, in the most honest of senses that if you don't like men looking at your chest or your choice of dress maybe you should dress up a little more. BY nature men r attracted to women and women to men.

I have no disrepect to women, in fact in the most innocent like of sense I call out the hipocracy of racism vs sexism on this blog/board.

NSFW
[www.pornbb.org]

Take note this is 5 days before this post. I try to be fair, but realize I can never be truely fair as I'm a male.

Men look and so do women. It's a two way street and no one or side is any more right than wrong.

Milstar

clevernamehere

I worked as a receptionist at city hall for a year . . . now that was fun to dress for.

I love my boobs. It's fun to show 'em off, even at work. The best example I can think of is Karen from Will & Grace, but not as extreme.

LipstickLibrarian

Agrado

I can cook, too! I suck at cleaning though. I'm moving to your post-apocalyptic commune if I can spend all day sewing and baking bread.

Jan74

If I, a straight woman, am uncomfortable and distracted, how can I blame a straight man for feeling the same way and more?

A friend of a friend, a guy, had to tell a young woman to stop wearing low cut pants and thong underwear (she bent over a lot) because it was distracting and inappropriate. She apparently thought the request was amusing, but complied. She was a sales associate for a conservative information and research product.

Seeräuber Jenny

In all fairness, anyone who works with th e public - sales, customer service - *also* gets paid to look good. They are paid to perform a job, but also to represent the company in the way they look. I'm sure the men are expected to dress sharply too, no ill-fitting outdated suits.

If they aren't, then yeah, it is sexist. Otherwise, it is just part of the corporate image they convey. My service rep at the Chamber of Commerce rocks cleavage, and so do the rest of the women who work there. The guys wear trendier, slim-fitting, more Mark Ronson type suits than what people in finance or law wear. It is part of a "we are not the old stuffy CoC you knew, we are younger and hipper and high-tech now!" image they are selling.

Jan74

dissolver

Also, I work in CS, and I'm the only woman in my department. My nerd (I love them, don't get me wrong) coworkers usually rock jeans and T-shirts, but I usually try to be a little dressier/conservative. Skirts past the knee, blouses, low heels/boots....

I'm weirded out enough by my disproportunate figure that a V-neck blouse feels risque to me. Like, somehow other CS/engineer/programmer types take me less seriously if I flaunt it. I know that's stupid.

I really want to make a Tshirt that says "My body is not cultural capital" and wear it everyday.

MansonNixon

The HZA

katworthy

LahFawnDuh

ZinniaZ

My point was, as still is, if there is to much or unwanted attn to that area you should probably be a bit more dressed up. Not to mention you are in a place of business and you don't know what your customer/clients feelings are toward dress.

and I checked and casually visit this place for some time via Tracie's/Slut Machine's blog. I didn't realzie the alpha cats were so dangerous.

Milstar

Brigit

BreeDMN

And I'll say another thing. If a man is going to talk to my boobs, I'm sure as hell going to make sure he knows that I know what he's doing. I don't let shit like that slide. (In my experience, talking to boobs does not equal viewable cleavage. It equals a man with no manners, at the very least.)

blubirde

Catty Is Cumbersome

And fuck the haters on Gawker. I like taking field trips there, and you're not going to bring up the animosity discussion of last weekend again.

Unless you start presenting your arguments in a more eloquent and grounded manner you WILL be smacked down and you will deserve it. And don't tell me crap like yours is actually supported at Gawker, because I know it's not.
If you make a field trip to a sister or brother site it *might* be a good idea to dip your toe in the water before you jump in.

haguenite

Maybe my mistake was saying that I was a male. I've been told that I need to control myself, I've been told that I somehow condone rape (which is never acceptable), I've been told that I'm an ass and to go F myself also.

You know I read Gawker and sadly I'm really starting to see what some of the people over there are saying about Jezebel. I thought I could offer a fair opinion on topic that I could relate to from the other side and maybe a little bit of a different perspective but I guess not.

Milstar

hollywoodenflames

lilchica

good lord, i have to read people's comment's on how much they love male celebrity's bodies and what they want to do to them sexually. but do i say, hey now, men aren't just there for your pleasure? cut the double standard, if i want to appreciate a woman and her breasts then i will.

dismount

haguenite

nellicat

J.D.Regent

If I'm an ass because I I think cleaveage should be mostly covered then I apologize.

Milstar

And I love "odds are good, but the goods are odd". Ha!

ItchykooParker

Leigh81387

nellicat

Oh hai! I am a certified tailor!

Taking in the side seams is harder than taking in the darts, or than adding darts to a shirts if there aren't none.

First, wash and dry the shirt so that the possible shrinkage issues are taken care of.

Pin a shirt taking in just the side seams, just the darts, adding darts, or a little at each (if you are gonna need to remove more than 1" from each side, this will probably be the way to go so there are no fit problems).

Anyway, to actually take it in, you need tailors chalk, an unstitcher (the knife-like thing you use to undo stitches), pins, thread in a different color from the shirt (for the guide sewing; you'll later rip these out), and of course thread for the real sewing.

Once you are ok with the pinned result and the fit of it (measure with a measuring tape to make sue you took it in equally on both sides), you trace it with the tailors chalk. Then carefully unstitch the entire sides (doing just the part where you wanna stitch it is a sure way to make it bulgy) - but leave the part where it joins the sleeve stitched, or it will be trouble for you later.

Now you wanna use the different color thread and make huge guiding stitches - each will be about 1". When done, you iron it to get a correct fit. Try it on. If it is ok, now you can sew with regular thread, by hand or machine. I'm faster by hand when doing curved sewing, so I'd go by hand here, but it is up to you.

Now you need to cut the excess fabric off, and you are done.

Jan74

jermom

Problem was I had to bend over that stupid copy machine for half my day.

Milstar

La Madrugada

Men can look. I look when I see a nice looking bloke. But fuck 'em if their ogling. A woman dressing the way she wants to dress is never more inappropriate than uninvited staring. But I guess you wouldn't know how it feels to be stared at, catcalled, whatever, just because you're wearing a cute dress and you look nice.

haguenite

I think maybe I should go back to work for awhile :) getting too riled up here.

rocknrollunicorn

I'm a lobbyist in Washington and, let me tell you, it's nearly impossible to dress in a manner that doesn't make certain men want to fuck you. The worst sexual harassment experience of my life happened the day I was wearing a turtleneck and pants.

There are women in my industry that will unbutton their blouses by a few holes before meeting with certain Congressmen. It happens. Are they using what god gave them? Yes. Is it how I want to be perceived? No.

It's pretty fucking obnoxious to come to work knowing that I'll be dealing with men (a vast majority of them are old enough to be my father) who will go out of their way to make themselves feel better by treating me like crap. It happens. It's my job. I'm just not going to pop a little bra out and see what happens, that's all I'm saying.

nachoyay

newscience

I will come to work in a tshirt or tank and shorts, so it isn't that I am a stuffed suit. And I don't wear a suit every day.

But clevage is just not professional in my field. There is one big bosomed lawyer where I live that must LOOK for low cut dresses. I think she looks stoooopid. But God Bless her, she has a nice rack and that's her choice.

Personally, I want people focusing on what I have to say, not what I have on or how nice my boobs look when I am in court or with a client. I want to be judged on my skills, not my looks, which brings me full circle, doesn't it? I don't want to be judged on the way I dress or look, so I dress a certain way.

Life is never fair.

randomthoughts

KLondike5

If men are talking about you, your chest exposure, you are way across the line.

Of the four offices I worked in there was one where the CEO, a woman, had to get involved as one department made their own dress code. It was so bad that you could plainly see their tramp stamps and tell if they were even wearing a thong or not because their pants were so tight. You know what their excuse was... nobody is making anyone look at us.

We were a financial services company that catered to a multitude of customers of various cultural, religious and ethnic backgrounds. Sorry but once you have men learing at you, you are little over the line at work. Outside... hey dress however you want.

Milstar

exactly.

pizza

Any dude who needs you to wear something during sex, whatever the hell it is - a bracelet, padded bras, whatever - has issues. Serious issues. You are better off without him.

Notice I said need. Not like, wants a blonde wig on once.

Jan74

Catty Is Cumbersome

Catty Is Cumbersome

dismount

desadette

no i hear you. i rage on a daily basis at the amount of clothing not suited for my shape. buttondowns that fit both my sizeM shoulders and sizeXL chest? cute tops that on an Acup wouldn't cause a second glance?

all i'm saying is that we can wish that sexual tension didn't exist when men and women work together. but it does. and it also works even when just women work together. ten years ago i worked in an ad agency with a non-existent dress code. i dressed very sexy all the time because i wanted to be "in their faces" with my intellect.

there was a lesbian woman who worked in my department and she constantly remarked to me about my sexiness and appeal, and how she wished i was into women. i really don't think this issue is just about men with women, although it might be the majority.

i think people are hardwired to react to certain body parts as sexual stimuli. how mature or professional people then act is yes, up to them. but just speaking for myself, i have a pretty low opinion of others' abilities to hold their shit together, so i'm never surprised at the behavior of anyone.

msAnthrope

Brigit

I understand that some people work in conservative offices and I think it's up to the employee to observe their company's dress codes, but FFS people, not everyone works at the National Bank of Amish.

KLondike5

J.D.Regent

nachoyay

dearheart

Despite knowing nothing about our boss' personal life, one commented, "Oh, I think she's easy. You can tell by her shirts."

Kazzah

Brigit

newscience

whatsthisnow

Likewise, I think my co-workers - be they heterosexual men or judgey women - are accountable for their behavior. We should all take responsibility for ourselves and accept that there are consequences, fair and unfair, for being ourselves.

I think part of my problem is casting the boob-having woman as a victim or potential victim - the allusions to rape are telling. My sartorial choices are not anyone else's problem. Other people's libidoes are not my problem.

Anyone who can't deal with human anatomy in the workplace because they have no personal discipline should be worried about losing my respect and lessening their professional credibility in my eyes.

KLondike5

I do know a couple of things: I am never going to wear a different colored button-down every day. Just not gonna happen. And if I find a super cute top I love -- because that is so rare -- and it shows a hint of cleavage but it otherwise acceptable, then fuck all y'all, I'm wearing it to work.

rocknrollunicorn

Catty Is Cumbersome

robertmcdouglas

bigleggedwoman

i work with 95percent men and agree with your viewpoint. i'm a 34DD and don't need to show any cleavage to get the quick eyedrop to my chest for that nanosecond whilst in conversation. it's quick and the conversation goes on.

here's the part i don't get. when we buy clothes, we're choosing outfits we believe make us look good. attractive. right? wearing a top that shows some cleavage is a deliberate choice. nobody would say showing cleavage is un-sexy.

so if when we wear clothes we hope make us look good, make us look attractive~~ why pretend to be surprised when others take the bait?

msAnthrope

I'm with you! When I wear a higher-cut flowier top, like what my husband tends to call my "maternity tops" (he is not a fan of the empire waist), I can't stop staring at the Wall of Boob in the mirror.

With a v-neck, it looks smaller, cause my boobs are spaced, so it is showing a bit of between-boob skin, but no real boob. Of course, if it is so low it is showing real boob, I tend to wear a bandeau underneath it and over my bra (passes for a camisole, but no extra layer).

Jan74

Catty Is Cumbersome

What it comes down to for me is that most of us just try to dress cute/find clothes we like. Sometimes there is cleavage because, as women, we have tits. And none of us should make some kind of cleavage paranoia dictate our wardrobe. That would be ridiculous.

So I'm taking those comments as somewhat facetious, because honestly I don't think that many women are dressing for office work and actually, truly thinking "YES! Cleavage!!!" I guess I cannot speak for them, but I assume they are "owning it."

rocknrollunicorn

It's not our fault all of America finds our bodies offensive for whatever reason.

TheGarlicSong

roodles

bigleggedwoman

Overall, it seems like there is a huge problem, not with cleavage, but with people being professional. Yes, attractive men make me a little sweaty for five minutes. This is something I could get over, or pretend to get over, while working. I think maybe the kids should stay in the sandbox until they're ready for the office and we wouldn't have such problems and judgements.

However, I am guessing that there would be a lot of middle aged jerks in that sandbox.

rocknrollunicorn

Catty Is Cumbersome

I call that the Executive Streetwalker look. It is usually big hair, FM pumps, red lipstick, sheer black hose, micromini, and big jewelry - but there is a *jacket*! So she must have been promoted to Executive Streetwalker, or she wouldn't need the jacket.

Jan74

TheFormerJuneBronson

B_boy

B_boy

And the "outfit dependent" caveat that so many commenters have raised is the sticky point.. At one extreme, there's the giant muumuu + parka number, and even then some men will still find you attractive, even sexual, and it may affect their perceptions of you. (we'll call them the uberdouche)
But it's a gradient, and the more you choose to "sex it up" by being attractive, the more people will question the signals you're trying to send. (This is cultural, so it can be worked on, but there will always have to be a line somwehere if we're to remain sexual animals)

And men are also judged by a hypocritical attractiveness standard. A certain amount of polish is ideal, because people like more attractive dudes, but an "excess" is considered vain/whatever.

In short:
More boobs on display=more boobs on the brain. And like ineffable said, the risks are there regardless of our ideals.

B_boy

Jesus, this is just like the rape discussions. We'd never talk about how women ask for it by not wearing turtlenecks in general. The average woman is not asking to be objectified by failing to wear them to the office. If you're objectifying them, it's your attitude that needs adjusting, not her top. It's an attitude about women all the time, not just on the days they're wearing an open neckline.

TheFormerJuneBronson

newscience

Holene

I am a B, but I feel so sorry sometimes for women with bigger chests. They are often automatically judged to be promiscuous or stupid before they even open their mouths. That said, I envy them too, because being perceived as a more desirable sexual partner in our society ups your value as a woman (right or wrong).

This is another thing that seems so unfair about being female; like being told you can't breastfeed in public, but seeing women's ta-tas on every billboard and ad in America. NOT feeding their babies. Seems very wrong.

ItchykooParker

electriclarrylandus

But my main issue is this- why is men's preoccupation with boobies MY fault? Why is it MY responsibility to keep them away from lustful gazes? And why do I have to tailor my wardrobe around men's inability to keep their eyes to themselves?

LookyLoo

LookyLoo

deserter

of course the article is about birds but i can see how it is one of the most read articles.

confusedforahotsecond wonders, what is a sun?

bigleggedwoman

Sorry, but I gotta blow the BS whistle on those who claim they have cleavage unless they wear a turtleneck. I have DDD's and do not have this problem. I just have to try on a lot of shirts before I find one that fits. You can't be married to the size tag. As Stacy & Clinton always preach, fit the widest part of your body and get the rest of it tailored. Tailoring is usually inexpensive for a ready-made garment. Invest in some tank tops or cami's. I've got a couple wrap shirts that look awesome & only show a hint of cleave-shadow, but I always pin 'em just to make sure I don't accidentally flash someone when I'm reaching for a file. When I'm out to dinner with Mr Zoot, it's a different matter...

I work with a bunch of men, and no matter what I'm wearing, most of them do the reflexive quick peek as we pass in the hall. Even if I'm wearing a jacket and they're totally hidden. (do all men feel obligated to peek, just on the off-chance my shirt might suddenly disappear?)

JustZoot

rocknrollunicorn

MissCricket

Men use their attractiveness in all sorts of occupations, esp. sales. Why else would real estate agents (ahem, excuse me, REALTORS) put their pictures on bus benches and shopping carts as well as on their business cards? Good looks are an advantage, no question. But I am against guys in the workplace wearing Angels Flight pants (okay, showing my age here!) to better present their buns and 'twigs & berries'.

bigleggedwoman

WINGSOFPASTRAMI

hollywoodenflames

However, there are small chested girls in my office who wear plunging necklines that prominently display the LACK of cleavage, which I think is just as inappropriate and distracting. Seriously, even if you are just an assistant, I don't think your neckline should leave me wondering (or confirming) whether you are even wearing a bra at all!

Dear Blond Diary...

What you need to do is put the shirt on inside out and have a friend pin the sides for you. It's nearly impossible to do this without help. Make sure you leave enough room to breathe and move freely. Use some tailor's chalk or a pen and make a line from pin to pin tapering from where you started to where you're ending. You can also do this with princess seams. Just sew along the line. You don't even have to cut off the excess if there's not a lot of it. If there's a lot of fabric left over, you may need to find an overlock machine or use some bias tape to sew over the raw edges you're cutting.

SheCracked

cautionarywhale

I am finding so many of these comments super judgy and really old fashioned. Tits exist, people. Let's all grow up. You can both stare at my tits AND listen to me talk -- it's called multi-tasking. Learn it.

rocknrollunicorn

hollywoodenflames

rubytown

I have to say you try finding a shirt to cover those babies. It's hard enough trying to find a bra that fits!

DeafChick

@funnyface: I've started doing that too. I'm a 36DDD, and the cami holds my breasts together and covers them underneath low-cut tops.

For work I wear V-neck shirts that aren't too low-cut and are nice-looking with no captions on them, and I'll wear a black H&M button-down open shirt over it to look classy and minimize my breast size.

@tscheese: My sister acted the same way when I wore a shirt that showed some cleavage. She made a derogatory comment about "black men looking at me." Blech.

I too hate seeing guys stretching their legs out on the subway, airing out their junk and having this dumbass city dude face.

I hate it when I find a dress that I like, but my breasts are fitting too tight in it, and bigger sizes would look like a giant sack on me. There's not much to tailor it to make it bigger without ripping out the hems and possibly ruining it. Jenny Lewis once told a story of how she and her friends bought thrift store dresses that were big on them so they could have a sewing party, drinking wine in their bras and fitting into their dresses because they were all "little ladies." It sounded like fun.

@HeatherNumber1: I too like good-looking men in suits.

beatrice3000

Personally, I don't seem to have any trouble with a hint of cleavage. I think most people know when something looks flattering, vs. something that looks trashy.

coodlebump

I don't think it does men any favor to say they can't help it. That logic is meant to make women feel like they have to take responsibility for men's actions, but really it is a much better argument for keeping men in cages. Being male doesn't mean you can't control yourself, but arguing that it does says a whole hell of a lot about you.

clevernamehere

hellodmitri

hollywoodenflames

We Don't Live in the 60s

cautionarywhale

bigleggedwoman

I have no rack to speak of, but I was once told my skirt was too short. I replied that another worker in the same department wore skirts the same length. The ultimate decision: no, bigleggedwoman, your legs are LONGER, so you are showing MORE of your LEGS.

Um, okay... I get it. It was too provocative for work.

Same with the three to four inches of cleavage, ladies! The general idea is that it keeps the focus more on the business at hand.

bigleggedwoman

magiciannamedgob

nellicat

We Don't Live in the 60s

merrittd

I have a wide set. Not even duct tape will give me the cleve.

AllThatYaz

Then again I work retail so people would try to stare at my boobs even if I was wearing a burka.

We Don't Live in the 60s

@ effeteaesthete: totally, the cleavage revealing person doesn't make themselves less unprofessional, it's the gawker who can't handle it that makes the situation unprofessional.

dismount

If we are staring at it for a noticeable amt of time you are a little over the line. Because to be honest most of us are pretty numb to a top of the V.

If we are talking about it then you are way over the line.

Milstar

Lizawithazee

i personally love cleavage - i think the problem isn't that people have it, but that there's this stigma attached. lighten up! people like to look at boobs. in a work situation i think the key is to make sure that your boobs don't outshine your work ethic.

saintestella

antioxidant

london_calling

bigtittycommittee