<![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon - Jezebel Comments]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon - Jezebel Comments]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> Haha, as if anyone is still reading this post at this hour the next day!

Artful Slinger, I don't blame you for not reading all 178 comments (I definitely don't when I come into a thread late.) But if you had, you'd know I was not surprised that people got arrested.

Marin:

I have heard Hillary arguments that put her ahead in the popular vote by counting MI. Terry McAuliffe made that exact pitch a little while ago. I'm glad no one's making it here.

As for caucuses, I completely agree with you about the caucus system. But any vote count that ignores the caucuses is ignoring a good four states. And incidentally, this is not the same as "ignoring" Florida and Michigan. The DNC decided that caucuses would be allowed while Florida and Michigan would not be seated. Ignoring a pre-approved state election is a lot worse than ignoring an election that everyone agreed beforehand would not count, and which was held in violation of the committee's rules.

The thing about Obama's swing state showing is a whole new argument, as is how pissed I am with Hillary for raising concerns about his electability among "white" voters. (Yeah, where would he be right now without the giant black populations of Utah, Iowa, Wyoming, et al?) But the argument is not about whether he can beat Hillary in Ohio, Pennsylvania, etc., it's about whether he can beat McCain in those states. I don't want to get into this in too much detail, but basically he has two huge advantages over Hillary: a gigantic appeal among new voters (whether people like me who are voting in their first presidential election, or people who never cared enough to vote before), and an ability to appeal to independents and Republicans. He's done consistently better among independents and Republicans than Hillary (even after the Rush Limbaugh effect, Republicans tend to go for him, and independents love him.) The problem is that John McCain has a lot of independent support too, and obviously the Republicans are going to make their best effort to portray Obama as a liberal, unpatriotic elitist. So he will have to work hard to keep that support. However, like you said, Hillary is a lot more polarizing and right-leaning voters would quickly mobilize against her.

And definitely, blind love for either candidate is stupid. I don't think Obama farts rainbows and will be able to bring about universal peace and prosperity just by whispering the word "hope" and cracking his gorgeous smile. (Admit that he is a beautiful, fuckable man!) And I don't think he is going to completely transcend and transform politics, no matter how good a job he's done rising above a lot of the pettiness in this race.

And I hope you realize that I was not the one complaining about the political debate on Jezebel. I was defending it! Which I also totally did on Wonkette today. You ladies are cool. But Wonkette is a lot more understanding of my occasional need to call Hillary mean names. The end.

ronaldpagan

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Xavoc: Fuck Motorists. If they want to get to work on time they can leave earlier. I have no sympathy for people who set fire to the very air I breathe just so that they can sit on their fat asses for their whole commute. Something very bad happens to a person when you combine them with a ton of deadly invincibility.

Endy

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> Blocking all exits is not minor. And while I respect your civil disobedience, you may also want to respect my Jeep Liberty and my total willingness to run over your protesting ass. (As a former NYer, I would think it is generally understood that on people's way home, you need to GTFO of the way).

Re: the Bell case - a moving vehicle is a hell of a weapon, and it's hardly surprising the cops emptied their clips into it.

Re: Hillary - I think it's understood that she has every right to remain in the race. But every time she gives her campaign a couple million of cash infusion, it chips away at her "I'm not an elitist" stance and makes her look silly. And you have to admit with the dem race this close, and with the numbers hurdles she'd be unlikely to overcome, if the superdelegates give it to her, the Democratic party can expect a mass defection of African-Americans, who are a huge base for the party.

warmaiden

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ronaldpagan: This is the point of the protest. They let everyone know they would be participating in acts of civil disobedience - which unfortunately are against the law. They were stationed at parts of the city where they were directly effecting traffic and were arrested. I think the only person surprised they got arrested is you.

ArtfulSlinger

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @SinisterRouge: He was mayor at the height of it too. Dialllo anyone? The comments on the Ny times article sadden me and rememeber the comments I heard aboutt he jOhn White Case. So twenty white teenagers come to my house demanding to beat his son or something worse, He reacted and shot the ringleader.Communtiy Outrage. "Why didn't he call the cops" The victim has no fault in his threatneing actions because the victim is white. But shooting unarmed men of color surely must be the fault of the victims right? So much has changed in Ameica yet so mcuh stays the same. As a perosn of color , a mother to two children of color one a son I can put myself in the place of Bell's Finace. So march peeps and Al Sharpton , I really dislike you but for once kudos.

ldq32

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ronaldpagan:

They didnt get arrested for praying, if you saw what they did with all the congestion and inconvienencing others around them theres the reason why.

I understand why the cops opened fire thinking he had a gun, however i dont think they should be walking away due to the number of shots that were fired, totally unnecessary.

On a lighter note lets keep Al Sharpton in jail so we don't have to hear him whine anymore

ThatsJustLovely12

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Megan Carpentier: Figured as much since I know fashion is Jennifers beat! But I'd certainly welcome as much as you as possible - and I know others would too!

marin79

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ronaldpagan: I did read your comment (and just re-read it to make sure I didn't miss anything earlier) - turns out, I just didn't get your point. After your clarification above, I do understand what your saying, though I disagree.

First of all, I don't think most Hillary supporters (or at least me) are trying to slice up the popular vote to show she's ahead - I think most people are just arguing that the popular vote in general should be considered. But I don't think anyone here has every argued that MI should be counted as is since we're all well aware of what a mess that was.

Second of all, I understand what you're saying about the caucus votes, but my personal opinion is that caucuses shouldn't be allowed. I personally would have an issue with casting my vote in a public forum. It's not new news that people act differently in public than in private & in an election like this one where you have two candidates that are subject to very unfortunate prejudices, I worry that what we saw in the caucus is potentially not what we'd see in a general election - and that's what we have to win! Also, there's the issue that people who have to work can be unfairly excluded from caucus voting. Since I'm no longer in college or retired, it would be difficult for me to personally participate. And I'm someone who has never missed an opportunity to vote since I turned 18. That said, I understand that they're far less expensive & sometimes practicality demands a less than perfect situation.

Third, most of our breakdown of the votes is more in a response to what is sometimes a general assumption by some Obama supporters that he's going to walk away with the election no problem. We find it difficult to take that as fact when you break down the demographics in various swing states we have to win. It's less about why Hillary should be handed the nominee & more about our questions about Obama's electability.

Lastly, I disagree with you (and the Wonkette commenters) that this place is full of blind Hillary love. I actually think that most of us are pretty honest about our candidate's weaknesses (i.e. that Republicans would be mobilized far more if she was the candidate, etc.). I, like many other HRC supporters, wasn't happy with the gas holiday & the idea that she "wouldn't throw her lot in with the economists." (esp since I work in that area). Also, I think most of us haven't been overly thrilled with some of her tactics, though we tend to me more realistic about politics.

However, what does get us worked up is blind Hillary hate. Misstatements of facts, acceptances of rumors as true & any Obama sunshine & rainbows arguments piss us off! Even though we understand the jig is up, we'll still continue to defend her against all of the things I just said b/c we do admire her & think her experience, intelligence & throughout understanding of policy.

Anyway, that was far too long, but I hope you get a chance to read it! Hope that you do stick around here - I find it generally a much more hospitable environment than Wonkette!

marin79

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @sabbaticalplease:
And between the longaberger baskets


redvwbug

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ceejeemcbeegee (AKA!):

Thanks for caring. But that's the problem… are we becoming so isolated we don't care? 100,000 people. If a tidal wave swept in and wiped out 100,000 folks in San Francisco, I think we'd notice if 1/7 of that city was wiped out.

OK, too freaked out, this old lezhippie needs to sleep.

Rose_Selavy_pppfffth

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @rose0red: Sorry, I left in the middle of an argument to get a late dinner. Bad manners? Anyway, I agree that this primary is not the dirtiest in history or a historically-unprecedented disaster. How do people say that with a straight face? Don't they remember John McCain's illegitimate black baby? I do think that what's going on is hurting the party. How come more and more of Hillary's most vocal proponents are Republican? If she's running for VP she's going about it the wrong way. You don't get a VP slot by talking about how your future running mate is a naive, inexperienced, anti-populist, unpatriotic elitist who's all talk and not Muslim AS FAR AS YOU KNOW. She has a right to stay in the race, but I think she should stop doing EVERYTHING she can do discredit Obama.

As for a unity ticket...I don't think there's any way in hell that can happen. I was ecstatic over the idea at the Hollywood debate, but I think at this point they've both torn each other down to the point where it would damage both of their credibility to be seen together. I don't want it to happen anymore.

ronaldpagan

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @marin79: Did you read my whole thing? I said I can't stand when Hill's crowd breaks out the popular vote (which they probably aren't doing so much after NC and Indiana) because the logic that puts her ahead in the popular vote is convoluted and misleading and they know it. The problem with Bush being elected (other than war, recession, massive tax breaks for the wealthy, backing out of the Kyoto accord, Roberts and Alito, Katrina, and on and on) was that it came down to a decision by powerful officials rather than the voters' mandate. Which is what a Hillary nomination would be at this point.

I've been posting on Wonkette for a while and people talk about how they hate arguing politics on Jezebel because it comes down to blind Hillary love and accusations of misogyny, but y'all seem really chill. (Although I would definitely not venture a joke about her tres cojones here. I've said too much...)

ronaldpagan

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @marin79: Aw, sweetie, you know the feeling is mutual. I would love to write here more, but I think we can all agree that I do not equal Jennifer. If you've met me, you'd know I know shit about fashion and less about makeup. Moe the infamous tomboy knows more about it than me. But don't hesitate to email the editors to request more of me...

Megan Carpentier

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Rose_Selavy:

I hear you, but compare the response to the tsunami in Indonesia, then Katrina, then we've had a wave of damaging tornadoes (about 70+) since January, plus the election...

Not to diminish the loss of lives across the seas, but domestic issues usually take a front seat, especially in an election year, an outgoing president, two viable canidates, etc... I get why the Burma issue isn't getting a lot of press... wrong as it may be.

ceejeemcbeegee

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> Yeah, fuck it, it's late, who cares, but I will vent about the US news coverage regarding the disaster in Burma.

It's like America does not care since most Americans could not locate Burma on a map. Hey, 100, 000 folks might be dead? Who cares, let's talk shit about Obama's beer, Clinton's hair or hmmm, fill in the skank de jour.

This is when I sputter, spit and throw up my hands in disgust.

Do you like their shoes?

Fuck.

Thank you and good night

Rose_Selavy_pppfffth

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @marin79: I think they're going to split the delegates from FL and MI 50/50. Just my hunch.

NOLA girl

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @rose0red: I'm in it to the end too! I'll follow in HRC's footsteps & be a good soldier. Plus, I'm going to be heartbroken when it's over regardless. And I'm obviously a masochist!

marin79

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ronaldpagan: But I've listened from months to Obama supporters who cite not only the popular vote as one of the reasons he should be the nominee, but also as an argument why Supers should vote for him (even though that is not the role of the Supers - or what they were necessarily intended to do when the positions were created). So why exactly can you "not stand it when Hillary people try to rationalize her campaign with the popular vote?" Since when is the popular vote not a valid measure of this race? Do we not remember why we've suffered through 8 years of Bush hell? It should count & it will. That said, Obama is going to have the lead there, so what do you care if the popular vote is viewed as a claim to the thrown? Your guy is going to have it anyway.

And in the case of MI, I agree there is not good way to decide what to do there. There should have been a revote, but Obama's lawyers BLOCKED it, which obviously sends a stellar message to those voters. But FL is a different story. All names were on the ballot & none of them campaigned during that time frame. I personally think the DNC fucked up big time in the decision to excluded those states. That decision could very well cost us the election & I hope Dean gets his ass handed to him for that. (I was obviously never on the Dean train - was an Edwards girl from the beginning!) But regardless, Dean stated flat out on the Daily Show last week that the delegates from both states would be seated at the convention. I just bet he's hoping Hillary's gone at that point, so they can put on appearances welcoming those delegates when really those states didn't get a say.

marin79

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ronaldpagan: Not uncivil at all! We can agree to disagree about the legitimacy thing. :) Also, I agree with you about the caucus states- of course they count in any forecast.

Considering the long odds, it's my opinion that she's running to remain relevant at this point. Translation: she's running for VP. If she has enough support from the right kind of voters, the party may force a unity ticket.

I'm sure she knows she's not likely to get the nom, but she has a right to run as long as she wants to- for any reason she wants to. (Hell, Ron Paul is still running!)

In 1980, Ted Kennedy continued to run an insurgent campaign against President Carter with even longer odds. He went to the convention trailing by 756 delegates. Hills is trailing by what? 150 or so? This isn't unprecedented.

As long as she's in it, I'm supporting her.

rose0red

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @GW06: hottt. talk liberation theology to me, baby.

J.D.Regent

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @misssgolightly: I had a law professor who represented one of the nuns that later were involved with the Berringers when they were arrested for threatening to kill I want to say Kissinger? All trumped charges....but she either wrote or received the letter where one of them claimed they wanted to do that. They're fascinating. The involvement of Catholic priests and nuns in a lot of these protests, especially in the 60s and 70s, fascinates me.

And really, what is protesting and civil disobedience without breaking some nominal law?

GW06

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ronaldpagan: But I don't think they look like monsters...I don't know first of all, what the alternative would be, just letting them block traffic? That's not really putting yourself out there. I don't think there was bait taken....there was a law broken...regardless of the cause, people are suppose to get arrested for it.

It's like in the Griswold case that gave us right to privacy and such, the Attorney General was refusing to enforce the law at all, so Planned Parenthood never got the opportunity to take the case to court and fight the law. They had to put up the most obnoixious advertisements possible for the AG to finally arrest someone so they could move forward.

If getting arrested for protesting today draws more interest and support to their cause, more power to them, but I highly doubt that most Americans see the police gently arresting people in a protest (and yeah, I say gently cause you can SEE it in that picture how they are walking on eggshells) as a sign of police brutality.

GW06

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @KimberleeJ: The definite upside of having a cold! The greatest thing is that I got IDed when buying it! Hilarious to me since 1) I had no idea there was no an imposed age & 2) I'm so far past 18, I burst out laughing when the woman actually asked for my license!

marin79

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @rose0red: I read your previous arguments, and you have a point. It should never have happened like this, and the DNC's insistence that for some reason Iowa and New Hampshire should be disproportionately influential and other states should wait their turn is a little nonsensical. So is the insistence of Florida and Michigan's people to make their little statement with full knowledge of the consequences.

I don't think not seating Michigan and Florida, or seating them with that 50/50 compromise, discredits a candidate's legitimacy. Everyone agreed on the terms before going into the race. The committee agreed, all those candidates agreed, the Florida and Michigan officials who decided when to hold the elections agreed. You can't change the rules midway through the game.

(Of course, Floridians and Michiganites didn't agree to these rules, and that's why everything is so fucked up. But I don't think in those states there is a unanimous movement to seat their delegates. I bet the Michiganites who took the trouble to turn up and vote for "uncommitted" are PISSED when Michigan gets counted as 55% for Hillary, 0% for Obama. And like Gretchen said, I bet the people who didn't turn out to vote because they knew beforehand they weren't going to be seated are even more pissed that Hillary's people are trying to change the rules.)

I think Hillary's entire campaign is predicated on overturning the will of the people. Right now, with 85% of the vote in the remaining states, she still won't break even with Barack. He'll still be ahead even if they count Michigan and Florida. She cannot win without some serious superdelegate support.

As for the popular vote...like you said, Barack's winning anyway, but I cannot stand it when Hillary people try to rationalize her campaign with the popular vote. First of all, that counts Michigan with 0 votes for Obama. Second, that neglects the caucus states, 3 out of 4 of which went heavily for Obama. (I guess Hillary's people are cool with neglecting states sometimes!) Popular vote schmopular vote.

Sorry if this sounded uncivil. I agree that there is no easy way to resolve this Florida/Michigan thing. And I am definitely going to work for, campaign for, and vote for whichever Democrat wins this thing, legitimacy or no.

I don't like the way Hillary's conducting her business, but I still have a lot of respect for her, and all my Obama people need to remember that she is not the real enemy here.

ronaldpagan

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ceejeemcbeegee (AKA!): yep & just look at the over representation of basically everyone but white males in the psychiatric system - whether it's the more benign going to see a shrink kind or the involuntary committals, forced medications, & the criminal forensic system.
Some days I could just gouge out my eyes.

nekosneako

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @marin79: You know what throws me off? I grew up near-ish to a town named "Champaign." So I think I am always trying to mix the spellings.

Also? Nyquil = awesome.

KimberleeJ

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @cate3710: Exactly. On NY1 this morning, they specifically said that Sharpton and Nicole Bell expected to get arrested today along with a good number of fellow protesters. This was long before the protests even started. If your protest doesn't raise awareness for the situation that you are fighting, what's the point? Of all the things to get arrested for, I think this is a pretty noble cause.

BrooklynBeats

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Xavoc: Reacting how you were trained to (which I think is highly dubious in this case) does not meet that the shoot was not criminal or not racially motivated. I think you need to wake up & recognize that America & Canada (I can't sit on any high horses here) are racist societies & that includes the police forces & influences how they react to situations. Also, they know the judiciary has their back.

nekosneako

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @KimberleeJ: It's "Champagne." Trust, I drink enough of that stuff that I'm good with the spelling. And even all hopped up on a glass of red wine & nyquil (cannot get rid of my damn cough!!!)

marin79

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ronaldpagan: I meant to say they "rose to" or "took" Al Sharpton's bait. Sorry guys!

@J.D.Regent: I KNOW!!! I have no idea why this perfectly reasonable concept is so anathema to whoever's in charge. Or why we don't award electoral college votes proportionally in the general election. Why completely disenfranchise everyone who doesn't live in a handful of swing states?

My mom's theory is that this farce of a primary process is America's way to make us feel like we have a lot more agency in the democratic process than is actually the case. In other words, hearing about the primaries from six months straight distract us from the fact that, come November, we'll just be choosing between two major parties, and our impact on which party gets chosen will range from nonexistent (if we live in a red or blue state) to infinitesimal (if we live in a swing state.)

That said, I'm down with over a year of campaign coverage. I love anything that helps me forget how Bush is still president, and primary news is healthier than Jack Daniels.

ronaldpagan

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @GW06: I remember fighting with my brother over this. I read Phillip Berrigan's autobiography ("Fighting the Lamb's War", look it up, he was an amazing person) and my bro just didn't get the point of civil disobedience.
He was like "Say whatever you want to say, just don't break the law doing it!" I was like "uhhh.... that's the point. It's an issue you're willing to break the law and get arrested for."
(In Berrigan's case, he was a Catholic priest who protested the Vietnam War. My brother was referencing when he broke into a draft office with his fellow priests and burned the draft cards to save the lives of the guys whose names were on them).

misssgolightly

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ronaldpagan: Ron, I totally understand both sides of the issue. It isn't an easy one. I still would like to see a re-vote, as unlikely as it is. But see my previous statements about not disenfranchising two states we need to win, messy problems/solutions, and the candidate's legitimacy.

And no SD in their right mind is going to overturn the will of the people. If Obama is ahead in the popular vote and in delegates, he will be the nominee. If HRC is ahead in the popular vote and Obama is ahead in delegates...then we have a nightmare. Given recent contests, I doubt that scenario will occur.

The worst part is this is a problem of the leadership's making. The voters should not be punished.

rose0red

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> In my fantasy world, private companies with ANNOUNCED PREFERENCES don't get to make the machines we vote on.

Fucking Diebold. Assholes.

Damn, that champaigne is almost gone. And I'm still not one step closer to being able to spell "chapaigne."

KimberleeJ

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Gretchen: also, i meant to say, a national holiday for voting day and, in my fantasy world, exclusively public financing for elections. sigh.

J.D.Regent

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @GW06: I think that's what she's saying. The NYPD rose took Al Sharpton's bait and made themselves look like monsters. Which is good; the more photos we have of cops hauling off praying, non-threatening black people, the more attention will be brought to the bullshit going on in the police force and justice system in this country.

ronaldpagan

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Gretchen: AGREE. We need WIDESPREAD electoral reform in this country and bad. I'm also all about paper voting. I've done electoral observation both in the U.S. and abroad and I am absolutely convinced of its superiority.

J.D.Regent

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @GW06: which reminds me of these ladies

[video.google.com]

ceejeemcbeegee

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @rose0red: There's no "gray area" about Michigan. Even if Obama and Edwards' people encouraged people to vote "uncommitted", a vote for uncommitted will not count as a vote for Obama. (Not that it necessarily should anyway, because a lot of them were Edwards voters.)

There should have been a revote, but it would be ridiculous to count the FL and MI votes because of the way they were conducted (lots of people didn't bother to show up because they didn't think their votes would be counted anyway, no campaigning by anyone.) It would be a totally inaccurate representation.

The entire system is a mess and needs an overhaul, but it's not like the people of Florida and Michigan would be the only ones not to have their voices heard. John McCain was declared the Republican nominee after March 5, and the Republicans who voted in the states after that don't have anything to say about it.

And, shit, if Hillary keeps this up to the convention and the superdelegates end up overturning Barack's enormous pledged delegate lead, the will of every Democratic voter in America will be ignored.

ronaldpagan

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @judgingnora: Oh my God.....the whole point was to get arrested.....the WHOLE POINT WAS TO GET ARRESTED.......

GW06

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Snaffles: Yeah, and the police officers were......arrested!!!! Did we all fail Civics 101? Arrested is different from indicted! Who's splitting hairs now? Those protesters will pay a nominal fine at most, and the reason we do that is because of the transubstantive nature of the rules of the American system. Have to apply to everyone, even the most worthy.

GW06

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @marin79: Awww, the DNC doesn't have to tell us to fuck ourselves. We've done that already!

The general feeling among dems here in the mitten state is we don't care if our delegates are seated or not and we're definitely not defecting to the repubs. We're hanging in there and will vote for whoever is next to the little donkey on the ballot next November.

Gretchen

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @blackbirdfly: yeah, and the key part of civil disobedience is that you get arrested for breaking the law to show how strongly you feel about something else. Hence the "disobedience" part. I mean, I'm sure they could have just sent traffic away from all the bridges and tunnels and kept everyone on the island over night, maybe everyone could have held hands and sung Kumbaya, too. One big photo op. That's exactly the kind of protects Dr. King had in mind.

GW06

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Notes from the underwhelmed: I've heard some of that nonsense too - Battleaxe was around here last night declaring that the African American vote would forever sit out if Obama wasn't the nominee. I personally don't buy it - I think people are really passionate right now about their candidate, but wounds will heal over time. I worry more about the HRC people who won't vote Obama since McCain demonstrates a lot of the same outward characteristics as Hillary (i.e. strong commander-in-chief, experience, etc.) A lot of people support Hillary for those reasons alone.

marin79

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @J.D.Regent: maybe they should get better training so as not to shoot black people
@ceejeemcbeegee (AKA!): exactly@Xavoc: being arrested is not the same as being convicted - plus police have a tendency to pull charges & evidence out of their asses

nekosneako

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> Btw, Megan - I love you!

Any chance you're in the running to replace Jennifer?! I'd be over the moon if you became a permanent fixture round this place!

marin79

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> To that end, she had an unannounced meeting in Washington with many of them behind closed doors. There's nothing sketchy-looking about that to the average voter though.

As did Obama. Which would be known if the news coverage here was done by someone who actually read the news.

descend

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> Awh fuck - I HATE it when I come in late to fun political conversations - I'm a loser who just loves this shit!

And I'll support HRC to the bitter end! SinRoo & I are going to spend mother's day with her & Chels this weekend! Any other NYCers who want to join, give me a shout!

That said, I'm prepared for the Obama nomination (got to mentally be ready, you know!) But I'll always admire the fighter in Hillary - just another reason why I think she'd be a badass president! And as SinRoo said - this is one of the first elections in recent history where ALL states matter* & there's no reason why the final 5 shouldn't count

*Unless your FI & MI - in that case, go fuck yourselves. Love, the DNC

marin79

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> They reacted, poor decision, or it may have actually save an officer's life.

See? US or THEM.

ceejeemcbeegee

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> Interfereing with traffic or not, what the hell was the NYPD thinking? Arresting Sean Bell's fiance? Stupid move guys, if not from a compassion-for-humanity standpoint then a PR one at least.

judgingnora

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Gretchen: I misspoke. Obama SUPPORTERS made an organized attempt to get people to vote Uncommitted.

Ugh, this problem sucks.

rose0red

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @rose0red: Our primary system and electoral college is outdated and obsolete. The whole idea of spreading out primary dates and holding caucuses began with the 13 colonies in an era where communications were not instant and people would have to travel long distances to the polls. Ditto for the electoral college.
We need to do away with the delegates, caucuses and electoral college and have a primary day and election day. Popular vote. No more super delegates and all of that hoopla. Just let us go to the polls and get it done the way the rest of the democratic world does.

Oh, and just to clarify one thing. Obama did not campaign for people here to vote "uncommitted". He did not campaign here at all. No democratic candidate did. They were asked to refrain from campaigning in MI and FL and they did. Hillary had a private fundraising dinner - no ban on that. I believe all had agreed to have their names removed from the ballot but Hillary decided otherwise and made the change before the deadline - nothing wrong with that either. But none of them campaigned here to ask us to vote in any manner.

Gretchen

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Xavoc: Okay seriously? You and I are friendly on meebo, but today a lot of your posts today and the past few days seem purposely inflammatory. If you felt slighted or picked on in another post, fine, but there is no reason for vitriol (not exclusively this post).

Trashtastic

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Xavoc: Yes, and I quote, "Get the fuck out of the way!" That was a SWAT officer.

ceejeemcbeegee

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @cate3710: The idea of the Democratic leadership being controlled by the Clintons is laughable at this point. But I'm sure some folks would complain.

I still think it will be more acceptable if the nominee is the one that has the most votes. God help him, the Republicans are going to be brutal. If he wins ONLY because two states weren't counted, expect GOP 527 ads calling him an "affirmative action" candidate. Is that fair? HELL NO!!! But it will probably happen.

We can thank Howard Dean for this mess. There is no pretty solution at this point. Except maybe a unity ticket.

rose0red

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @rose0red: On the other hand - if Clinton got the nomination because FL and MI were counted, then people would complain that the DNC didn't enforce their decision because they're under the Clintons' control or some shit.

cate3710

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ronaldpagan: probably, half of this administration's ideas of a strong Homeland are right out of Mein Kampf by way of 1984.

NerD!!!

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Gretchen: "But how do we punish the leadership?"

I wish I knew. They need punishing.

"Again, I will say this is the finest example of why we should have a NATIONAL primary DAY."

I can get behind that...especially if we lose the caucuses.

rose0red

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @cate3710: Messy situations often call for messy solutions. I'm open to any idea that doesn't involve potentially disenfranchising two states we need to win.

rose0red

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Miss Smith Drank Your Vodka: Seriously? I've heard way, *way* more Obama people saying that they would vote McCain over Clinton than vice versa. At the end of the day, I seriously can't fathom anyone being like "Oh, ok! Fine! I'll just vote for McCain or not vote at all purely out of spite." I sincerely do not believe that's going to happen. I mean, I'm getting pissed as hell at the democrats, because it's turning out that a lot of them are just as misogynistic as the republicans are- but that doesn't mean that if Obama gets the nomination that I won't vote for him- because at least he's better than McCain.

Notes from the underwhelmed

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> ^Also, if Obama wins *because* FL and MI weren't counted, there will be legitimacy questions about his nomination. Anyway it is very possible he will win even WITH those votes.

rose0red

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @rose0red: But how do we punish the leadership?

The state DNC chair is finished at the end of this election cycle. The governor who was the second person in this is in the middle of her last term.

Neither broke a law. They were TOLD this would happen if they moved the primary and they did it anyway. If Dean backs down on this then why have any primary rules at all?

Again, I will say this is the finest example of why we should have a NATIONAL primary DAY. Everyone votes at the same time and all candidates who have declared and campaigned for a set period of time beforehand (say 6 months) are on the ballot.

Gretchen

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @rose0red: That's what it comes down to for me. Here we are all talking about the will of the people, you know?

KimberleeJ

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @rose0red: Yeah, but it's also kind of a problem for the DNC to make a decision and not enforce it. And there are some issues with just counting the votes they have - some names weren't on the ballot, some people didn't vote because they didn't think it would count, etc. So it's not necessarily a fair or accurate representation. In general, it's just a big mess.

cate3710

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Gretchen: It really isn't fair to punish the voters for the mistakes of their leadership. JMO.

rose0red

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @SinisterRouge: It's how I feel now.

I am more about the November election now.

If McCain wins because the Dems can't unite, FUCK THAT.

Miss Smith Drank Your Vodka

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @librariesare4lovers: @Gretchen: I agree it is a gray area with MI, but Obama's people ran a campaign to get people to vote "Uncommitted."

My preference was a re-vote. Still is. But since that isn't happening, I think the votes should be counted.

rose0red

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @rose0red: Sorry, as a MI voter I can't agree with you there. Sure I'm pissed as hell that my candidate (Edwards) wasn't even on the ballot, but I voted "undecided" anyway.
Our state DNC chair and our governor were TOLD our delegates would not be seated BEFORE they made the decision to move our primary up to give us what was called a greater voice in the process. They were informed of the rules and broke them anyway. In my opinion the only thing that must happen is those officials should be held accountable. The only way for that to happen is no count, no revote.

Gretchen

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @rose0red: You would count MI even though Obama wasn't on the ballot when they voted? That doesn't seem fair- but FL should stand since it's just a date issue.

librariesare4lovers

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> I have a hard time understanding what everyone is afraid of when it comes to HRC letting remaining voters vote.

What damage exactly to the party (that hasn't already been done)? Does Barack seriously need a window of time to "PR" himself as a worthy candidate to Dems upon her exit? Are voters not adult and informed enough to make their own decisions, under the influence of their own opinions and judgments? Including the super delegates? Including young voters? White voters? Black voters? Women? and Men?

I seriously can't understand all the hubbub. If Barack wants to focus on McCain, he should. Simple. Unless he's afraid of HRC making some against all odds comeback? What gives here?

nyobserver

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @J.D.Regent: That's what I figured, but I just wanted to double-check. My brain, it is tired.

cate3710

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @cate3710: the cops! the city.

@cwistomoweina: i'm not everyone but i liked your comment. al sharpton's head is amazing.

J.D.Regent

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Xavoc: It has been hinted, but no one wants to divide the party here and lose any dem votes. MI has a history of swinging either way so most are cautious about division.
The decision was made by our state DNC chair and our dem governor. Governor is serving out her last term and the DNC chair will also be stepping down so it isn't like we can vote someone out of office. We had very little publicity about the primary moving. State media covered the story when the decision was made and announced the new date. And that was it. It sucks, but the national committee said our delegates would not be seated and these two went ahead anyway. What were they thinking? As for me, I voted "undecided" and will save the vote that will (hopefully) count for next November.
After the MI and FL cluster what a great argument we would have for a national primary DAY. Candidates have 6 months to campaign and then they slug it out in one day. Much better use of time and resources.

Gretchen

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ceejeemcbeegee (AKA!): Also, FL and MI MUST be counted. Period. There should have been a re-vote, but now that isn't happening, so the votes must stand. JMO.

rose0red

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ceejeemcbeegee (AKA!): As bad as I want to see HRC become POTUS, in the end I think she would need to be ahead in the popular vote at least for the SDs to choose her. If she's behind in delegates and in the popular vote- as much as it saddens me, there's no contest. They need to go with the people.

Unless sometime between now and then something comes out or happens that would make Obama TRULY unelectable. It would take something of Chappaquiddick proportions, though, and I don't see that happening.

rose0red

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Xavoc: I think these people have every right to protest, they just don't have the right to not expect to be arrested for breaking the law.

So protesters peacefully blocking traffic = warranted arrest, but a bunch of armed men killing an unarmed man and getting away scot-free = well and good? Yes, they were police officers, yes it happened in the course of duty, but at the end of the day they killed an unarmed civilian. They fucked up, and much more drastically than someone's commute getting a bit delayed, and I can very much understand people being upset over there being no consequences for that. I find your willingness to split hairs over police procedure versus your across-the-board reaction to civil disobedience puzzling.

Snaffles

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> I've gotta stick up for Xavoc for a sec here: I don't think Xavoc was saying that these protestors were unjustified in what they were doing. the point is that they weren't arrested b/c of "what" they were protesting but "how" they were protesting. the protestors' intent is beside the point from the POV of the arresting officers. I don't mean to try and speak for you Xavoc but that's how I interpreted what you said/wrote.

librariesare4lovers

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> ok, now I feel bad because everyone's been seriously discussing the situation and my comment was rather light-hearted. Police violence is serious shit, and I try to do my part to not support them by jaywalking in front of my local station whenever I can (ok, that was light-hearted too, but I really do)

Apologies for the lightness in heart! I'm in a mood

cwistomoweina

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @J.D.Regent: In their minds, someone attempted to strike them with a vehicle. They reacted, poor decision, or it may have actually save an officer's life. But, we won't really know. They made a poor judgement call in how the situation was handled. Not a criminal one.

Xavoc

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @J.D.Regent: Bad PR for the cops or the protesters?

cate3710

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @J.D.Regent: I remember that poor crazy dude with the hammer. That was fucking sad as hell.

KimberleeJ

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> The NYPD didn't make you like Al Sharpton; Al Sharton's entire head in that picture made you like Al Sharpton, specifically the facial expression and mussed hair.

On the topic of Sean Bell, I found myself in a superficially similar situation about a week ago (leaving a place that was being searched by police), but it was a 'white' establishment and I look white too (tricked them!), so there were no guns and no one stopped me from leaving. (In case you were wondering, it was a bar being searched by what was described to me as the "alcohol police" and I am only 20. I was only there for the food! I swear.)

But I bet it had would've been different had I driven there, because my car has a Mexican flag on the back.

cwistomoweina

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @cate3710: but it's still super bad PR, given the tenor of the times.

J.D.Regent

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @SinisterRouge: Uhm, define armed? Alleged statement about gun that later proved to be false. OK, so someone opened their mouth when they probably shouldn't have. Attempting (or appearing to) to strike officers with your vehicle, well then the car becomes a weapon.

If you beat someone over the head with an 18" dildo, it's still a weapon.

@Gretchen: Yeah, like I said, the voters of the state didn't do anything wrong. But the state party had agreed to rules ahead of time, and when the party chose to disobey that, they screwed their own people. I'm surprised someone isn't suing the party for negating their vote.

Xavoc

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Xavoc: Right, it's the freaking out and opening fire part most people have a problem with. Cops are in crisis situations all the time. It seems to me they should be trained to deal with them without freaking out and opening fire all the time, and to my view, many police forces, including this one in this situation, don't ACT like they were trained to de-escalate, or even to shoot to injure not to kill, or any other harm mitigation.

J.D.Regent

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Xavoc: I don't think anyone, including the protesters, expected to not get arrested. In fact, as blackbirdfly pointed out much earlier, it sometimes helps the cause in the long run.

cate3710

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @SinisterRouge: Police officers are trained to use every means necessary to subdue an assailant or to handle a situation without violence. They are taught that when they must fire their weapon, they should aim for the center of mass, away from vital areas, in order to incapacitate rather than kill. Even so, put in a situation such as they were, no amount of training can prepare you for the day the hairs on the back of your neck stand up, the crowd is restless, and then someone does something you think is brandishing a weapon and you are forced to make a life and death choice.

All that said, the officers in this case used poor judgment, and got themselves into a situation they did not need to be in. The NYPD has a habit of adopting a gung-ho, guns drawn approach which is ripe for disastrous consequences.

NefariousNewt

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ronaldpagan: Hitting anyone 100% of the time, especially in the heat of the moment, while firing repeatedly, is very difficult.

Richard Marcinko's autobiography talks about how a squad of men couldn't hit a 4x8 sheet of moving plywood with automatic weapons at first. And we're talking about Navy Seals in a war zone.

Accuracy training for weapons is one of those expensive things. You basically have to do it day after day, to maintain it, and it is very expensive to do. Then there's the part where you're firing different amunition (cheap target) from your everyday rounds (hyrdoshock +P rounds).

I think these people have every right to protest, they just don't have the right to not expect to be arrested for breaking the law. That's my no sympathy clause. OK, yes, you don't like that, but you broke this law. So we're going to arrest you, make a martyr out of you on the news, and then you'll have to do a few hours of community service cleaning up a park somewhere as penance.

No real harm, or foul there. Just saying that it's unreasonable to expect police to not react to the law being broken on that scale. The protestors might not even be prosecuted.

Xavoc

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @SinisterRouge: Well, that and he is a megalomanical psychopath.

I laughed long and hard at his presidential bid. And got the last laugh, as it turned out...

KimberleeJ

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Gretchen: I know, girl. Those as much as I feel for you are harder to argue on a basic level. :(

SinisterRouge

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @KimberleeJ: What's interesting about your question, not about me. Ugh, long day, as I said. I forgot how much I hate driving in NYC, and I'm frigging swilling a bottle of champaigne now.

KimberleeJ

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @briardahl: On of the many, many reasons that I despise Giuliani is that he kind of stacked the NYPD with dark-hating crazies. I run into so many cops lately that are complete wing-nuts.

SinisterRouge

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Xavoc: Would you have preferred it if, after the announcement of the verdict, the outraged citizens of NYC rioted? Peaceful protest has been a staple of movements for century or more. I prefer civil disobedience to the alternative that forces police officers into more situations where bloodshed may ensue and where more innocent victims may be claimed.

NefariousNewt

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Xavoc: No they are not.

NYC cops are not trained killers. Some of them become out of control ones. And their claims are questionable at best since Sean Bell was unarmed and the cops would not stop firing.

NOW, if this is a situation where ahem, certain prejudices, are clouding your judgment in the matter, that is an entirely different issue.

Think if a white guy had gotten shot 50 times by the cops when he was unarmed.

SinisterRouge

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @J.D.Regent: I don't think it was a de-escalation issue. I think there was confusion and unclear circumstance. If you bump a cop with your car, they're going to likely draw their weapon. Even if it's an accident.

I can't really know what happened, but it looks like what I said. Bad reactions on the part of several people, that ended in tragedy. Guy looks up, sees guys with guns, says "Oh hell I'm gettin outta here" doesn't hear the police anouncing who they are (they're not in uniform), guy hits gas, cops freak because they think guy is going to maybe back up and ram them...and open fire.

@briardahl: Minor? They blocked all exits from the island at once. When dealing with an area with hundreds of thousands of people, it quickly becomes more than a minor issue to unravel.

Xavoc

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> Oh, and as a last thing, Xavoc, you have to think about the viewpoint of the people who are protesting here. Black/African/Caribbean New Yorkers in poor neighborhoods have taken the same message from the NYPD for a long time now: "In the process of policing your neighborhoods, we are probably going to accidentally kill some of you. We are making an omelette, and you will be the broken eggs. Better you than us."

It's easy for some people to accept those accidents as a form of collateral damage. But if you happen to be among the group of people who are most likely to take the brunt of that, being collateral damage is not going to sound so great. It's one thing when the NYPD goes out of its way to reassure these communities that they're trying to minimize these instances -- paying close attention to polices about plain-clothes cops, how they approach suspects, their training for using lethal force. But when they (and other people) stick at this stage of "oops, tragic accident, it happens, we might kill you and stuff, sorry about that" ... there are good reasons for people to feel like their lives are being devalued by this.

briardahl

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> I voted for Al in the 2004 DC Dem primary because he was one of the only candidates to show up to DC's debate and also one of the only candidates in favor of DC voting rights.

I also told my conservative NY mother that it was partly to piss her off ;)

freedc

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @J.D.Regent: What's interesting is that I am a member of a police organization, so I know a lot of cops from all over the world, and the technique for escalation/de-escalation varies. Speaking of course VERY broadly, British police go into these situations in a very de-escalated mindset. Of course, they've also had many, many problems with over-reacting, most notably after July 7th.

I wish I had time to reeally expand on this, but I think a lot of it has to do with the arming situation. There are many, many studies that show that simple exposure to weapons makes people more aggressive, and British cops generally aren't armed.

Like I said, speaking very broadly!

KimberleeJ

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @J.D.Regent: I don't. I've found some of his actions in the past to be divisive, and there are times I'm certain he's bigoted. That said, he is a passionate spokesperson, but he needs to do far less talking and far more acting.

NefariousNewt

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @SinisterRouge: Don't forget the MI votes. We didn't do anything wrong either - the decision to move up our primary was to give our state "a greater part in the process".

Yeah. That worked out.

Gretchen

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ronaldpagan: you don't have to apologize for being outraged.

lenora

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @briardahl: Bruce Springsteen is going to have to re-write his song.

NefariousNewt

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Xavoc: that's some flawed understanding of law you've got there. it's a good rule of thumb to question why something is "illegal" so that we, you know, *maintain our active democracy.* i understand that it's inconvenient (and sometimes worse) to be held up in traffic, but that's exactly why people trying to *enact changes to the legal system* act in that way. i hope that arrests following protests, lawful or not, spur more protests and more lawful change.

lenora

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @J.D.Regent: Five oh!

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ceejeemcbeegee (AKA!): Yeah. I don't think I stressed enough in this thread (I have in the past) that this kind of thing only happens to black people. Can you imagine the public outcry if it was a white dude's bachelor party?

@Xavoc: Okay, training is a lot of the problem. But that is cool that they didn't hit Sean Bell and his friends all 50 times. I guess that makes it all right?

You don't think they should have at least been charged with manslaughter or ANYTHING? And you really think the protests today were that much of an overreaction?

Sorry if I'm getting too bitchy here; I am just horrified by cases like this.

ronaldpagan

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @NefariousNewt: Pretty much.

Megan Carpentier

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @NefariousNewt: oh man i totally love al sharpton. that was not an insult AT ALL.

J.D.Regent

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ceejeemcbeegee (AKA!): Actually, I've found some of them to be the most racist people I've ever met, in that they loathe even their own race.

Also, did you ask those officers what their training is when someone appears to be using a vehicle as a weapon?

@SinisterRouge: Uhm, they carry guns capable of holding 10+ (likely 15)rounds each, only one person reloaded, and a tactical reload takes a couple of seconds. It's easy to look at it and say, that's excessive, but police are trained to do that, as is the military, FBI, and ATF.

Xavoc

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @J.D.Regent: I think in this case, the symbolism of the protesters being arrested by the same police department that gunned down that poor woman's husband-to-be for an act of civil disobedience, is one of the best things I've seen Al Sharpton do.

NefariousNewt

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ceejeemcbeegee (AKA!): Seconded!

The whole POINT of protest is to distrupt the status quo in order to gain attention. And the Sean Bell tragedy deserves more mothafuckin' attention.

I wish feminists would protest this way. UCONN men are gonna sexually assault a woman on a "rape trail" whilst spectators cheer them on? I'd baracade myself to something for that.

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @SinisterRouge: i is that clay davis i hear?

J.D.Regent

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> Hahaha:

they didn't shoot him 40+ times, he was struck 4 times out of 50+ rounds.

versus

it really looks as if they reacted in the manner that they were trained to react

Xavoc, if there is a special day where NYPD officers are specifically trained to fire wildly and incompetently when they feel they've lost control of a situation, then protests should be shutting down a lot more than a bridge!

briardahl

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Xavoc: I deal with cops a lot, but to be honest I don't know much about their training in this regard. Why do you think cops aren't taught to de-escalate situations? Why are they taught to empty the clip?

J.D.Regent

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> I got caught up in that protest today! I had been affirmed into NY in Brooklyn, and was hanging around. Juniors was delicious as usual, damn I miss that.

I love me some Al Sharpton, I can't help it. I watched him debate once, at the National Action Network convention, and dude was impressive.

I wish I could be more profound, but it has been a long day, and the Bell incident makes me deeply, deeply sad.

KimberleeJ

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @SinisterRouge: Hey, I started with I thought she could/should stay in and I didn't think it would cause any damage. Give me that I felt bad for the waitresses. It's why I don't donate to campaigns.
@briardahl, ceejeemcbeegee (AKA!): I agree with both of you. Notably, it's why I chose it as the lead story/picture tonight.

Megan Carpentier

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Xavoc: Separate points here:

- ha, I didn't say anything about what's worthy of protest, I said I didn't think you really agreed with the principle you were putting forth there

- personally, this is an issue I can understand creating a minor traffic disruption over, and I think that's in the typical/legitimate realm of protest; I also think it's legitimate and expected for police to arrest people for doing so; that's how the dance works, so I don't really need to draw any lines around it

- to argue another small point: these police did NOT make the decision based upon how they were trained to react; they veered well off procedural standards (and hoped-for outcomes), and their incompetence was noted by the judge who acquitted them. (There are no NYPD guidelines that say "fire indiscriminately into car until clip is empty, reload, and then continue firing for good measure")

briardahl

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> The conservatives being happier than liberals argument sounds a lot like ignorance equals bliss to me.

As far as Hillary goes- I'm so freaking tired of hearing that she should just drop out. I'd way rather see her fight it to the end. It's just been very "Ok, sweetie! It's cute that you tried, now go be a good girl and let the boys play. Here's your tea set! Why don't you go play with that!"

I'm still bitter that I always had my name written on the board in elementary school for talking out of turn, when the boys did it all the time and never got in trouble at all.

Notes from the underwhelmed

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Xavoc: Only 19?? That ain't sheeeeet.

SinisterRouge

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ceejeemcbeegee (AKA!): We had a black cop come into our office and tell us that we should eye black people more. And that it wasn't racist. Um, WHAT???

SinisterRouge

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ronaldpagan: 5 officers, with guns that hold 10+ rounds each, and they're taught to empty the clip once they start firing. It's basic police proceedure across the country.

They make a point that one officer reloaded and kept firing. To them a man had just attempted to hit them with his vehicle. Oh, and they didn't shoot him 40+ times, he was struck 4 times out of 50+ rounds. One individual was struck 19 times, another 3.

I'm not saying the cops couldn't have used better judgement, but it really looks as if they reacted in the manner that they were trained to react.

Xavoc

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ceejeemcbeegee (AKA!): That and that they had to reload like 9 motherfucking times to get that many shots out.

SinisterRouge

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ronaldpagan: and the fact that some of the cops weren't White doesn't make it not-racial. Black people can be racist against each other, ya know?

ceejeemcbeegee

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Megan Carpentier: Oh come on now. Now that's a negative against her too? Because I'm sure Obama has raised money from people OTHER than college students and the rich, don't you think? That's a low-blow and IMO completely inappropriate.

If Jesse Jackson, Ted Kennedy, Ron Reagan and Brown all got to stay in so should she.

And now we're starting to parse where her donations come from? C'mon. That's unfair and completely ridiculous.

SinisterRouge

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @briardahl: Word.

Why is the natural response to being run down by a car to fire 50 rounds of bullets into it? If a car is coming at me, I'm going to get the fuck out the way. But these cops main motivation was not self-preservation, but stopping the bad guy at all costs. And the fact dared to ram into a cop car! Well it's time for payback, fire at will.

And I've had this sentiment confirmed by former LAPD cops and sheriffs.

ceejeemcbeegee

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Xavoc: So you are totally against all forms of civil disobedience that are not cleared with the law ahead of time or held in a designated "free speech zone"?

@briardahl: What she said.

ronaldpagan

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ronaldpagan: 50 shots is an appropriate reaction to very few situations. The zombie apocalypse is one of them.

cate3710

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @briardahl: I see, so any cause that someone chooses to protest is somehow worthy of being OK to break laws, endanger the safety of others?

Where do you draw the line? This wasn't like the curiously organized round-up and arresting of people protesting in NY a few years ago where the police filed marchers into dead ends and then arrested them all.

I'm not saying the police made the best judgement. I'm saying they made the decision based upon how they were trained to react.

Xavoc

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ceejeemcbeegee (AKA!): Word!!!

@Xavoc: I agree that this isn't as bad as Amadou Diallou, but he ALLEGEDLY said that. And then they shot him 50 times, which is definitely not an appropriate reaction to the situation, even if their lives were in danger. The fact that the people involved had owned illegal guns before is completely incidental; the cops had no way of knowing that. And I bet they're not happy about killing a man, but I bet they're STOKED that they got acquitted after abusing their position as officers of the law to shoot an unarmed man 50 times.

This kind of thing happens all the time, the cops are rarely brought to justice, and it is a totally legitimate reason to inconvenience a few commuters.

For the record, I totally agree with you about Hillary's chances.

ronaldpagan

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Megan Carpentier: Erm... no.

ceejeemcbeegee

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ronaldpagan: Actually, marches that disrupt traffic usually are coordinated with municipalities ahead of time. You can file permits for protest routes, get police escorts to ensure safety of the marches, and allow people to plan around disruptions in their lives. For all we know an ambulance couldn't get somewhere to save someone because it was stuck in traffic jams caused by the protest.

A group of people wanted to march to the Cardinals stadium during the BCS bowl game a few years ago and were arrested for crossing a police line after their permit to march was denied. They wanted to disrupt traffic surrounding an event holding +20,000 people to do so, for the sake of immigration reform.

Xavoc

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Xavoc: That's a fine reading of the Bell situation,* if you like it, but it's completely unrelated to what I said, which is that "I don't have sympathy for protesters arrested while breaking the law" is a really broad statement that I'm not sure you'd always agree with, in principle. (For instance, when civil rights marchers and activists were set upon by police, not just for breaking segregation laws, but for "posing threads to public safety," "disrupting the peace," "unlawfully assembling," etc.)

* P.S. Another reading of the Bell incident might be that it is not an acceptable accident when New York police have a weird recurring habit of unleashing ridiculous dozens-and-dozens of bullets into unarmed black men, and that maybe something is wrong if we really consider those lives as expendable "accidental" damage and give police carte blanche to dump several clips into anything that frightens them for a second.

briardahl

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Megan Carpentier: And why keep spending it when the economy is getting worse? Why not say, "Enough" and start returning unspent funds to those who sent them in?

Unless they seat MI and FL, she's basically going to lose at this point. If they seat MI and FL, then she's screwing Obama for abiding by the rules that the DNC had agreed to well before the process.

The DNC isn't screwing people out of their votes, the state parties did that for their constituants. If you should be angry at anyone, be angry at them and remove them from office. "Your decision to not abide by the rules you had previously agreed to have negated my vote. Get the fuck out."

Xavoc

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> Is a McCain/Romney ticket a for REAL possibility as Chris Matthews is making it??

Because that could be the best.news.ever for the Dems in November.

ElleL

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @SinisterRouge: I'm not disagreeing with you.

Gundam_Halo

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Xavoc: What everyone said. And protesters block traffic all the time.

@SinisterRouge: If she wins 85% of the vote in all the remaining states (of which, West Virginia, Kentucky, Puerto Rico, and possibly South Dakota will go to her, while Montana and Oregon will go to Obama) she will still not have caught up to Obama in delegates. And I will definitely not get you started on Florida. She has a right to stay in as long as she wants, but she needs to tone down her attacks or she will be doing outrageous damage to the party in the service of a mathematical impossibility. (I was glad she said that about working for whoever the democratic is yesterday; hopefully a step in the right direction.)

ronaldpagan

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @Megan Carpentier: The seating of MI and FL in any combinations gives her more basis to act on her Nuclear Option. Her wins in KY and WV will help argue for it, but her loss in NC and small win percentage in IN hurts the argument.

The window of opportunity is shrinking for her though (for her nuclear option), her superdelegate lead has shrunk to 10 as of today.

Gundam_Halo

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @ceejeemcbeegee (AKA!): Luckily, you get both! Hoorah!

Megan Carpentier

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @blackbirdfly: Allegedly one of the patrons in the group said, "yo, get my gun and kill that dumb white bitch" as they were leaving. Cops overheard this. Then something bad happened.

It's a tragedy, but more than one of the individuals involved had been arrested previously for posession of illegal firearms in the past.

@briardahl: This isn't quite the same thing at all. This wasn't racism, this was an accident because someone had to make the statement quoted above. If that isn't threatening language, I do not know what is.

What happened after that is basically a tragedy in its own right. Driver saw guys w/ guns, and hit the gas hitting a unmarked police van. In police terms, that's called vehicular assault. The police then open fired fearing for their own lives. It's what they're trained to do when someone appears to be using a vehicle as a weapon.

Like I said, sad, tragic, but not criminal. I doubt any of those officers is happy about having shot someone, let alone the person dying.

Xavoc

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @SinisterRouge: You and I agree there, staying in until the end at this point is like six of one, half a dozen of the other. I do, however, feel a little skeeved that she's like "I have to stay in for the working waitress moms who send me $20 every month." Why keep taking their money?

Megan Carpentier

]]> <![CDATA[The Oh, Hell No Afternoon]]> @SinisterRouge: I fully agree with you there. Let's just finish this thing out. And for once, the whole country is heard.

Chris Matthews is recapping the meeting Hillary had with the DNC today... and really theyre just saying the same thing theyve been saying all day: She keeps going.

ElleL

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