<![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss? - Jezebel Comments]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss? - Jezebel Comments]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> And may I add that there is a huge difference between criticizing the right of women like Sarah whateverhername is or Laura Bush to go on about 'backwards' Islam and denying that there happen to be gender issues in Yemen.

judithvansteppes

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> Or maybe the point is that the interview treated the topic of women's issues in Yemen as if it really were a piece for Jane magazine, which is tacky.

Where was the part where Jezebel questioned the right of this woman to even go to Yemen as some sort of expert?

Dear middle class white women fashion editors: it isn't your right to travel the world reporting on nuanced political issues, issues of which you have no prior knowledge, as if you were an expert. Perhaps Sarah could be a Fox anchor.

judithvansteppes

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @Jessica: My mistake. Sorry, I read Moe once say something about going back to the homeland and usually only Jewish people say that about Israel.

Aron

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @Aron: Thank you.

I found the article horribly offensive and no amount of back tracking or deleting the really henious parts of the post (Racialicious have busted you on that one too) will change that.

"Just trying to start a discussion, I'm in a hurry" is not a Get Out of Jail free card.

There have been many articles that are insensitive to Muslim women and women of colour here. Several commentators have called you out on it, but it takes an external website to get any actual response.

Believe it or not, you actually have a sizable readership of Muslim women. When Aaminah posted her repsonse on her private blog, many said how we liked the site, but with things like the Yemeni post we don't feel welcome anymore.

Have you got time to address that?

Dogtanian

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @Aron: Moe is Catholic. Jennifer and I are the only Jewish Jezebels.

Jessica

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @ceejeemcbeegee:
You know I had a similar, but inverse(?) experience.
A colleague at work, who is african-american, and I were talking about 'cynicism.'
I said that I was over my personal cynicism, and now actually felt I was being pretty self-indulgant when I was being so cynical in my younger days.
She responded, "Well, that might be easy for you since you're a white woman in America."
Now i wouldn't have been miffed at this comment if it weren't so tangential to what we were discussing, and the fact this woman knows nothing about me. And she seemed to be of the mindset that it was ok for her to make assumptions based on how I looked to her (she also obviously took my manner of dress, speech patterns and hairstyle into account with my race).

Now I'm pretty much against making assumptions of any kind, really. Especially ones based largely on appearance.

The funny part is that she grew up in suburban Michigan, having had the experience of growing up in a mostly white community. I grew up in Baltimore city. In fact, as we've gotten to know each other better, I've discovered she has probably had more conventionally "white" experiences in childhood than I. (And by white I mean rich, because these activites include riding horses and shit like that)

But I don't feel compelled to "defend" myself to her because 1) that would be going against my current more peaceful, less cynical mindset and 2) somehow, I feel she would believe me to be Fakin' Da Funk. Like my grand scheme would be to hide some ultra-classy upbringing.

I dunno, it just sort of made me think she was a bitch and to be aware that she's viewing me with race-tinted glasses.

bunifah

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> hm, looking at the earlier comments it appears that some people actually take the IM conversations posted here seriously and get very upset over them.

y'know, I just skip them.

librisdraconis

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @ceejeemcbeegee: "I had a White woman ask me recently, "Sister, don't you feel you OWE the feminist movement your loyalty because it let women like you into the workforce?" And I replied, "Sister, Black women have always been in the workforce: By the time y'all started bringing home the bacon, we'd been slaughtering the whole hog for a two hundred years."

As a 40 something white woman, I would have had the exact same response.
Also, your questioner perfectly illustrates some of my frustration with the current feminist movement, (Ignorance of history and narrow thinking.)

And do not get me started on the race/class construct in this nation.....agghhhhh.

BeachLover

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @ekaterinaballerina: My point wasn't about the fact that I have studied anthropology and sociology - my point is that those fields have been riddled with biases that tend to favor the Western centered views of outsiders as observers over people who actually grew up within the culture. My educational background is actually psychology with a focus on the psychological mechanisms behind prejudice and racism and the effects of prejudice and racism on the targeted groups.

Your example was kind of irrelevant because I did not say that the views of outsiders had no value. I said that historically and traditionally, white people - and I say white people because this is a Western, white dominated cultural normative site operated within a Western, white dominated cultural normative society - have tended to place more value in the outsider perspective.

I know there are other people writing and talking about Yemen - I'm not an idiot. I am talking about the post that was placed on this site, was criticized by a poster on Racialicious and responded to by Moe. It is irrelevant what other sites, magazines, and people do - I never said that the outsider view should be eradicated. But in the same way that I hate being judged through on outsider's lens for being American, I afford the same respect to others.

And now I think I have repeated myself at least 10 times, so I am finished with this topic.

xay

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @Triphena: there aren't enough awful things that can happen to evangelical foodists.

StratfordX

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> *Im not sure about what you mean by next wave and focusing on WOC (women of colour)...WOC feminism is a well established branch of feminism which explores how men oppress women but also how race/class oppresses women and how feminism in the past/present has failed women of colour...because we both agree it has...
* Its about race/class/gender/sexuality really any definer that is used for oppression. That is what I like to believe feminism is moving towards a comprehensive understanding of how all systems of oppression work...different feminists have different priorities though, what we have learned from the past is that you can have your agenda but you have to acknowledge that 1) you have an agenda that does not meet everyone else priorities 2) there are other ways of opression beyond one dimension...
* From there I dont really understand the rest of what you are asking....

Cuntlovin

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @marie123:
This is how I see it and I cannot speak for the other commentators.I have been lucky it my education with women studies and sexual diversity studies to presented with a very racially and culturally diverse understanding oppression in our society.That said what you are describing from your sociology classes is again from what I understand more an equity studies perspective than rather say a traditional feminist perspective, which as explained refers to mainstream early feminism and radical feminism which is what most Americans/Canadians associate with feminism today. This feminism was about how women are oppressed by men most importantly as women, which for many minorities failed to incorporate the deeper social roots of their oppression. That fact is that in todays world its actually better to talk about "feminisms" because there are so many many different conflicting beliefs systems in feminism.So to answer your final questions "What about if educated-but-white experts leveled in on these issues?" For many minority groups who is speaking about you is just as important as what is being said because so often what is in the media is already a privliged position. Even then when the under privliged are allowed in the media they are often taken up as the spokesperson and symbol of their cause, dispite the diversity of oppressed identities. Its a diffcult issue about whether or not 'allies' can speak for oppressed individuals causes ex. Intersex individuals simply do not want allies speaking for them in any way shape or form, were other minorities have differing opinions on having a privliged allie speak for them, which is the concern with white activists speaking 'for' racism experienced by minorities. One the hand the arguement is that your privilige will never let you understand for whom you are really speaking about and it is your privilge that lets you speak, one the other hand racism takes all forms and privilige in no way invalidates someones intelligence or ability to work with others.I dont have a answer because while I like to think allies can work with others and with time share their voice, in the end it is the right of the group to determine who speaks about them and as we know being a minority doesn't make you homogenous in your beliefs or identity.

Cuntlovin

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @Cuntlovin: @ceejeemcbeegee: @TeenageGangDeb: Thanks for the replies....

Maybe I'm missing what "mainstream/current feminism" actually applies to or what the discourse actually involves and am thinking of every sociology class I've taken...most of which has been focused on social class-cum-race first and the special burdens on women second.

So what would the "next wave" involve, then, as a point that would have to focus specifically on non-white women?

Is this about class or about race (yes they're connected....I think I'm asking this on behalf of all the white trash on my mother's side of the family)?

I don't appreciate being regarded as some type of "traitor" when I was never part of the club in the first place."

@ceejeemcbeegee: Ignored...the added penalties of being black and all of its class/criminal justice system-related implications?

If someone started a movement that focused specifically on nonwhites teenage girls and women and the rates of sexual/domestic violence and/or statutory rape against them--if that woman left the pages of Feministing and not-for-profit-type websites and actually got on CNN, Fox News, etc. etc---(maybe I'm off a little, how many not-for-profits actually have household-name status? Not many....)--

What would happen? Who would be grateful for the enlightenment/reminder, or with anger to the inevitable blame that would have to be allotted (example--I don't think all violence on black women can be squared on indifferent white America....)?

If bringing light to a social problem (including those focused on by "Eurocentric feminists") DOES involve blame and fighting for resources in a zero sum game....when would the long-term clash really produce anything of true value?

What about if educated-but-white experts leveled in on these issues?

marie123

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @xay: just because i didn't agree with you doesn't mean that i didn't understand you. backing up your generalization with the fact that you obviously studied sociology and anthropology doesn't make it any less wrong. i was an african studies major in college but i would never go around making generalizations about the african continent.
what i was trying to point out with my example was that i got the feeling, and i could be wrong here, that you had more had a problem with sarah being white than her being a foreigner. if my friend had gone to the predominantly homogenous and white country of russia instead and come back with anecdotes about living there would it have been any less valuable because there was no cultural reference? the piece Moe wrote was more about a Westerner who got more interested in Middle Eastern affairs post 9/11 and decided to explore them by moving there. you seem to miss that the story was meant to be an outsiders view only. i agree, again, that we need to hear both sides of the story (when traveling i generally read narratives from the viewpoint of someone who is native to said country) but this was never the intention of Sarah's story. And having worked for a Middle Eastern fashion magazine I can tell you that they pass their fair amount of judgement on our lifestyles over here and a lot of it does get printed too.
oh and i can tell you that had my friend indeed gone to russia instead of the us, she would have probably come back with stories about how all the apartment buildings had stairwells that wreaked of urine and alcohol.

ekaterinaballerina

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @Cuntlovin: .the fact is many scholars today can agree the feminism in its original form failed to reach many disinfranchised identities...I am not hating on feminism," That I agree with.

And I don't think you're biased. (I accidentally addressed this to PetiteGal:); just genuinely curious and frustrated when this comes up in (other, outside) discussions.

marie123

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @Aron:
And I myself have always wondered about the lack of Israeli/ Palestinian conversation on Jezebel...especially since moving from the USA to Canada exposes one to an very different media protrayl and understanding of the situation...sigh its hard reading Jezebel up north sometimes...

Cuntlovin

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @Aron:

I think you actually really articulated what one could find offensive about the post, in a manner that far exceeds what was done at Racilicious...I know you may get grief over it but it you eloquently produced the thoughts I had rumbling in my head but didn't have them thought through enough to feel it was appropriate to voice them...and kudos on acknowledging the cliquey atmosphere that brews here sometimes...as a new commentator you can often be made to feel as though your thoughts are not valid if you are not a expert on the history and expression of Jezebel...which for all people are shitting on Racilicious they seem to be alot more welcoming and civil to all commentators...

Cuntlovin

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @TeenageGangDeb: I agree with this too.

spikenard

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @Aron: I agree.

spikenard

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> I'm sorry, I didn't like the original post, and I don't think that this explains it away.

It was presented as a lighthearted, irreverent conversation - it was presented as you genuinely praising Sarah for moving to Yemen to explore 'why they hate us' and being eager to find out her thoughts. When people already see a culture as backwards and primitive (as many of the commenters seemed to), making erroneous statements like 'Al Qaeda are like The Beatles' or 'it smells like piss' aren't that forgivable if you don't, at any point, let readers know that it's not 'serious' or indicate your intention to delve more thoughtfully into the issue at a later stage. There was nothing in the interview that could've sparked an interesting discussion. It was just offensive, and yes, maybe it's harder to see that when you yourself are not a minority.

spikenard

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]>

Just my thoughts:

*I've found that people of color almost have automatic pushback to posts like Moe's because it evokes the "savage native" imagery that colonizers used to describe the lands where our parents or we are from. Maybe the intent is different, but...

*Not everyone who reads Jezebel is a long-time reader who knows where Moe or anyone is coming from, knows that the blog is typically irreverent/snarky, so don't jump on someone for not having a detailed knowledge of Jezebel's ins and outs...

*Also, I did notice in the comments to the Yemen post a sort of sorority-type attitude with the "established" commenters kind of pouncing on the people who were critical of the post. Someone even said, "Oh, you're new here, here are the rules" or something to that effect, and it was kind of like, ewww, sororities.

*Jezebel is serious about some issues. Look at the backlash against the Yale abortion chick, or Marion Cotillard. Yeah, it was done in a snarky style, but the backlash against both women was not light-hearted and 'whatevs.' I call BS on this attitude that "I don't take this seriously and neither should you b/c it's just a BLOG!" Yeah, but (a) it's read by thousands of people, (b) it's part of a corporate media network which generates millions of dollars in revenue. Please, let's eschew the attitude that this is some sort of underground joint.

*Moe was talking about the Middle East and Islam. Moe shouldn't tread lightly or censor herself, for sure, but look at the subject matter. We're living in times of blatant and widespread Islamophobia. I think what's interesting is that Moe is probably on the opposite spectrum of your typical Fox News commentor, but the "atmosphere" of the post had the same ding-ding-ding keywords which alert most people to Islamophobia (and, hey, if you're not going to take writing the piece seriously, you can't expect readers to fully digest the piece word by word and read it in total earnest, either). It was the "atmosphere" (can't think of a better word, sorry) of the piece which riled some people...even if it was meant to be satire...maybe (sorry) it just wasn't done well?

*Also, and this is total pomo crap (sorry again), but it DOES matter to more than a few people that Moe is a Jewish woman who goes to Israel on El Al or something and she is posting on Yemen and Islam. Yeah, you can talk about humanism all you want, but you should also own up to your own biases if you don't expect to push back when you post like that.

*Because if we're going to talk about humanism, you should also talk about Israel, Israeli oppression of women, etc. If you do a search of this site, there aren't many posts about that. Yeah, Jezebel isn't CNN, but then don't talk about calling stuff out in the name of humanism.

*And if Israeli oppression and all the crap that is going on in Gaza right now is too much of a stretch in terms of "women's issues" for this blog, I refer to this Gawker post as a model: [gawker.com]

*Last, are they holding a gun to your head to blog, Moe? B/c it seems like you get really defensive when people are critical of your writing and say really weird things like "Well I don't give a shit anyway" and "I would go into it but I HAVE TO POST NOW." If it's that painful and that stressful and that oppressive, then maybe you shouldn't do it? B/c it's kind of immature and tired to keep acting like blogging for Jezebel is like working in a sweatshop.

Aron

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> Sparking discussion...what a concept! Amen, sister.

Liz Lemon

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> I'm all for anything that makes me stop and consider other lives for a moment. What Sarah is doing is so different from the lives most of us live. Thanks to Moe for writing a post that made me take a moment to consider that I could be leading a different life - expanding my own boundaries in an unexpected way.

I was a random work acquaintance of Sarah's and that conversation, no matter if it was casual or whatever, made an impact on me. I sit here at my materialism serving job and complain that it has no redeeming value - why can't I go actually learn something and make my life more interesting?

washionfore

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @BritneyCanadaWhore: all on the same page, totally and completely. my feelings about wearing the veil and a lot of other muslim traditions is probably the same as a lot of kids raised christian feel about creationism when they're grown; the whole thing just starts to rub you the wrong way. and i'm sure i came on too strong with my original statement, especially without any context for my opinions.

slowtraincoming

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @TeenageGangDeb:

And I also think the most amazing changes happen socially and academically when we can combine and explore how different individuals are oppressed differently but yet its connected...for example there is some really amazing work being done in exploring Trans identity, applying queer politics but also looking at it from a colonial perspective in that alot alot of what is publicly seen as Trans imagery is limited to Transwomen...and that the very use of the word Trans carries huge race and class implication about what is public, what is private and how valued your imagery is in society...beautiful things happen when we come together and explore other frameworks...

Cuntlovin

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @slowtraincoming: gotcha. sars i jumped the gun and assumed you weren't muslim - in my initial reading of your comment it sort of sounded a lot like the "muslim women are brainwashed by their backwards cultures into thinking that they are self-determining" argument. i think it was specifically the word "pretend." i'm no expert; most of my info comes from independent reading and from speaking with the muslim women in my life, some of whom wear hijab and some of whom don't. and while i understand more clearly now what you're saying, i still think it's dangerous to imply that women who wear the veil are victims of their culture who would never engage in such practices given a proper "choice," whether in yemen or any other muslim country. i think there's a place for a critique of patriarchy as it affects women in the muslim world that also allows for cultural relativism; and i think that such a critique is useless if it silences the voices of muslim women and affords them no agency.

i know this is a slippery slope; i mostly just didn't want to drop that first comment and dip without engaging. and i apologize again for my initial presumptions.

BritneyCanadaWhore

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> Normally I really like Racialicous but that post seemed to be reaching a bit.

I mean, women ARE oppressed in Yemen. Is that statement of fact racist? Islamophobic? It's just the way it is.

Roomba

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @TeenageGangDeb:

See and its funny because I am and out and out hardcore sex positive feminist because like I say all the time on here my passion is queer studies and looking at sexual disinfranchised identities...but that doesn't mean I step back from being aware of the residue of colonialism and the white middle class bias...fact is my biggest problem with 'eurocentric' feminism is it fails to understand that many individuals women, racial minorities, sexual minorities, we have different needs and different identities...and that gender is not the ultimate identity

Cuntlovin

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @ekaterinaballerina: she didn't relay the info as if she was a yemeni citizen, she did it as an ex-pat. In the, "here is what it is like for a non-Yemeni to live in Yemen". I don't think that means that "white people" value her opinion over Yemenis.

You know, that's a good point. If there were to be an interview with an average Yemini, I bet they would speak more positively of their culture and not find it strange that women can't even laugh in public, and it would be an entirely different story. But for non-Yemini who want to get a taste of what it's really like to move over there, then it's a good perspective to interview an American living in Yemen, for example.

HeliosHyperion

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @ceejeemcbeegee:

You might be one of my feminist soulmates...on the race as a social construct issue...how do you feel about Trans inclusive policies??? lol jk

Cuntlovin

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @Cuntlovin: Yeah, it has a lot to do with colonialism for women of other nationalities/ethnicities, and white, middle-class culture as the "default" cultural perspective for nonwhite women who live here. These women WANT a women's movement, but they want one that addresses their specific issues. I mean, nothing against sex-positive feminism AT ALL, but sex-positive feminism doesn't mean a whole lot to women who are working two crappy jobs to raise kids with no support from the babydaddy and barely have time to think about sex in the first place, y'know?

TeenageGangDeb

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @TeenageGangDeb: Word! We wouldn't mind being friends with "feminism" if it didn't just make booty calls. ;-)

ceejeemcbeegee

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @marie123: Um, yes.

We've touched upon it in the early Obama/HRC posts. But I think this site might provide further insight into how *I* feel on the issue: [www.ablackgirl.com]

In short, yes, I feel I am seen as Black first, woman second. I don't personally think sexism is more oppressive than racism simple because of my personal experiences. I'm not saying which is worse or more prevalent, I'm just saying which is worse or more prevalent for me. And I kind of resent this recent wave of feminist wagging their fingers at me because I put my race (which includes men) before my gender because for many many years the feminist movement ignored the woman of color. I don't appreciate being regarded as some type of "traitor" when I was never part of the club in the first place. And I don't doubt that many (not all, of course) Black women feel the same way.

I had a White woman ask me recently, "Sister, don't you feel you OWE the feminist movement your loyalty because it let women like you into the workforce?" And I replied, "Sister, Black women have always been in the workforce: By the time y'all started bringing home the bacon, we'd been slaughtering the whole hog for a two hundred years."

Again, that's just MY opinion based on MY experiences.

However, I do think that younger feminists are much more aware and inclusive of women of color. But feminism's biggest failing (IMHO) is asking women of color to choose one over the other.

But I think race is a social construct and the TRUE divide is class, but that's a whole 'nother post...

ceejeemcbeegee

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> And again I am lucky because I live in Canada and academically I am exposed to alot more minority and queer feminists than I might in the USA

Cuntlovin

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @TeenageGangDeb:

A point I really use to illustrate how traditional feminism fails women of color is talking to Aboriginal women in Canada...they want nothing to do with it...why? Not because they hate women, because the problems they are facing are because we are imposing our social views on men and women on them and forcing them to take it up...within their own culture, there is no need for feminism

Cuntlovin

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @TeenageGangDeb:

Thank you...Im glad you got what I am saying...I was thinking I must have just written crazy nonsense....

Cuntlovin

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @slowtraincoming: Okay, gotcha. And you're absolutely right. It seems to be difficult for some people to distinguish the difference between voluntarily covering your hair, face, etc and being forced to do so by society.

TruculentandUnreliable

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @marie123: What specifically applies to nonwhite women that doesn't apply to "Eurocentric" feminists?

Institutionalized racism, for one.

I think there is plenty of room for civilized debate on how feminism and race intersect. It ain't all dandelions and freegan sunshine to be a feminist if you're not white. In fact, almost all of my black friends have issues with race and feminism. This isn't because they dislike feminism or don't want to identify as feminists; This is because they don't feel included. And sometimes they're completely justified in feeling that way.

I'ma tiptoe around this so as not to step into any wasp's nests, but straight up: A lot of what gets attention vis a vis feminism these days is very middle-class, white, and New England/West-coast centric. Chances are, if you are a poor woman of color from somewhere other than a media-centered metropolitan (or even generally urban) area, there isn't a whole lot in BUST, Bitch, or even Ms. that is going to interest or apply to you. And I don't mean to knock any of those things, or to generalize poor women of color under the same umbrella (whatever their interests may be), but talk about white beauty standards in (mostly-white-aimed) women's mags, cable TV shows, intellectual personalities, soap commercials aired for women who work at home -- all of which are perfectly valid things to discuss in a feminist context and deserve attention -- do not reach out to everyone.

This isn't Jezebel's fault by any means, but frustration over the lack of outlets and media for other perspectives -- which is something Racialicious tries to amend -- is certainly understandable.

TeenageGangDeb

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @xay: I agree but I think you should have left the generalization about "white people" out. It had no bearing on the story. I also think you need to understand that this is not the only view of Yemen that should ever be heard from. You seem to be thinking that people will read this and take all their opinions about Yemen from it. It's a blog. I highly doubt anyone read that and thought, well now I can form my official, non-changeable opinion about Yemen.

ekaterinaballerina

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> And that said maybe it would help you to understand my biases as a person, I am a women of mixed descent and while I whole heartedly identify as a feminist my passion and focus is as a queer individual. I believe its important to be critical of any discourse that is taken up broadly, feminism included, which particularly strike a cord in the work I do with gender variant individuals who have been demonized and discriminated against by lesbian seperatist feminist...thats me , I hope that helps you understand where I come from...

Cuntlovin

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> That if I am not answering your question I am confused about the question...the fact is many scholars today can agree the feminism in its original form failed to reach many disinfranchised identities...I am not hating on feminism, particularly the work done by feminists who identify as women of colour...if you are seeing that you are misinterpreting what I am saying...

Cuntlovin

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> I was referring the aftermath of radical feminism that we still feel today in that assuming a white middle class female view of the world is a limited one. I was refering that work done by many famed feminist in the 1970's, 80's and up until the 90's and even today is limited to understanding a white patriarchal understanding of the world...I did not mean to say white feminists ignore race class gender intersections...I was merely illustrating a branch of feminism that is commonly attacked by women of colour feminists. The fact is feminism has many different forms, and well I believe and hope (and pray) that most white feminists today are consicous about race and ethinicity and class...however there are vains of feminism that I myself see as Eurocentric in that they fail to explore the opression of minorities outside a middle class white framework.

Cuntlovin

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> Good post Moe. I try to stay loyal to Racialicious, but you know - I stopped reading it for fun a long time ago.

zorazero

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @PetiteGal: p.s. I ask that with genuine curiosity b/c the clash between mainstream feminism and race has been brought up....nobody ever explains the details or severity of this clash (I guess that black women have to choose between being "black" and thus suspicious of "typical white people" or else....they have to choose womanhood and anticipate greater alienation btw. black women and the population of black men lagging behind them in terms of mainstream success?)

marie123

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @BritneyCanadaWhore: i wasn't speaking of american women or women in the western world, perhaps i should've clarified that point. i was speaking of yemeni women, a point the author of the racialicious post made. she said these women "choose" to wear the veil when it's actually required by their cultural mores...and laws.

oh, and by the way, i was raised muslim...

slowtraincoming

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @Cuntlovin: that said it is no more constructive as a woman of colour feminist to decisively dismiss any product of Eurocentric thinking without exploration, than it is to presume a Eurocentric view of feminism applies to all women...that fact is it is always to simple to subscribe to generalizations and stereotype..."

What does that mean? What is it that that "Eurocentric" feminists benefit from or believe that nonwhite ones cannot? Are you referring to class? The clash btw. domestic violence victims or women who want to change their pool of date-able men....without necessarily sending them to prison?

Lack of education? The intersection of race and crack laws? The implications of being nonwhite(before being a woman) and poor in the criminal justice system? What? What specifically applies to nonwhite women that doesn't apply to "Eurocentric" feminists?

marie123

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> If it wasn't for Jezebel, I would not have gotten through the last few mind-numbing months at work. The discussions that I have read and sometimes take part in have inspired and challenged me. So kudos to you Moe, and all the other editors for giving all theses wonderful people a place to gather. On a daily basis, I would not think of Yemin, unless that episode of Friends was on. But this website provides a place to learn, think, and expand horizons. I take it seriously, but in a good way.

PolythenePam

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @sassydame *diva on a misson*: I understand the distinction between personal blog and informational blog. However, I still the think there are important format differences that necessitate a difference in standards. First, how many "traditional" journalists are expected to produce a dozen stories a day? Is it really fair to expect the rapid content generation readers expect from a blog format AND the level of fact-checking, research, and objectivity we expect from other media? Also, I think the blog format lends itself to a more personal feel. Especially with the active commenters on Jezebel, the posters can sometimes feel more like discussion moderators. They come up with a topic, a news item, or someone's interesting personal experience (a la Sephora Spy or the Model who authors posts) and presents them to the group. I think these factors indicate that the rules of traditional media cannot and should not apply to blogging. Exactly what should the rules be? I guess we are still trying to figure that out.

Benevolent_Dictatrix

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> Wait, I went and read the prev. post Racilicious is referencing and I dont see a urine comment?

Was it later deleted?

I see comments that reference urine, but not in the actual post ...

Miss Smith Drank Your Vodka

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @ekaterinaballerina: I think @xay: was clear in stating that her preference was for an insider. And I don't think her statement "there is a long standing problem that goes back decades about the fact that white people tend to value the opinions of white outsiders over POC insiders on POC issues" is completely off-base either.

arodriguez.romero speaks java

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> What kinda sticks out in my mind is that the writer at Racialicious said:

And some commentors who expressed concern or disgust had comments moderated, deleted, or never published, and at least one was banned.

I don't recall Jezebel censoring any comments that were critical of the post. I recall banning one commenter because of the way she lodged a racist insult at another. I don't imagine Racialicious allows such comments on their blog, either. I don't think Jezebel has ever tried to suppress differing viewpoints that are free from disruptive language. This part is just misleading.

TeenageGangDeb

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> I can't believe how seriously she's taking herself over there on Racialicious. PUR-LEEZE...it's a BLOG, people. Blogs are inherently juvenile and irreverent. LOVE how one of the commenters said "oh I just blogged about who terrible Jezebel is". Good for you! Good FOR you! Too bad NO ONE CARES.
Jezebel is FUNNY. It rounds up interesting news, gives some talking points, then leaves the discussion up to us. FUN is what the Faminazi Boner-Killer Squad is all about!
For reals, though, there's a ton of entertainment value stuff on here (fashion, TV shows, etc.), but also some heavy fucking stuff which needs to get talked about. I read the comments on this site! Fat chance of that on most blogs because of the inane "first"s, etc. It's great to hear what everyone has to say, especially on difficult subjects. You need to talk through them to *get* through them.
Also, I think the Racialicious poster assumes we're all taking ourselves seriously on this blog about "celebrity, sex, fashion". IT'S IN THE GRAPHIC AT THE TOP. AND I'm having LOLkittens on LOLLERSKATES over the fact that she hasn't read any other posts on Jezebel, yet considers herself a "REAL JOURNALIST, SRSLY". Cos yeah - real journalists do as little research on a topic as possible before writing a biting criticism.
Jezebel, you're awesome. Don't ever change.

lautaylo

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @BritneyCanadaWhore: Shit, I am hardcore nearsighted, because I didn't even see a hint of that. Just the ignorant part.

TruculentandUnreliable

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @ekaterinaballerina: Well, I could write chapter and verse on the history of the fields of sociology, anthropology, the popularity of Tim Wise and other examples, but like Moe - I have other things to do.

I did not say that we should only hear about other countries from natives of said countries. I said that there is a history of placing more value in white outsider voices than POC insider voices and that I prefer the insider perspective. The outsider perspective is valuable for providing perspective, but I think that the insider perspective is just as valuable for context. I think that the outsider is more valued because someone from the shared culture of the reader is more relatable - you share the same value, norms, and cultural references. But, IMO, this story in particular really needed cultural context and it wasn't there.

Here is the flip side of your example: One of the best conversations that I have ever had in my life was with a Pakistani Muslim woman who attended my college, chose to wear the burka, and chose to let her parents arrange her marriage. If I relied on Jezebel posts on Islam, specifically wearing the burqa and arranged marriages, I never would have heard her clearly articulated and frankly, empowered POV. Jezebel rarely posts interviews or stories from Middle Eastern Muslim feminists - definitely not in proportion to the "horrors of Islam" stories that are posted. Both groups should be heard.

xay

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @slowtraincoming: you're really out of line here. if i squint really hard i can almost detect some kind of point about patriarchy in the western world . . freedom as fallacy . . bikinis aren't liberating? but it's way, WAY too buried in ignorance and racism for me to quite make out. looks all blurry. i think you should maybe try talking to a muslim woman one day and maybe also not writing things.

BritneyCanadaWhore

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> moe, once again i think you were thrown under the bus. you never said she was the authority on yemen. you never even implied it. i was hoping the post was a quick teaser into more information from someone who followed a desire and completely changed thier life to fit a culture so different from the one they knew. that intrigued me and was why i read the post.

what is wrong with having the point of view of a north american submersing herself in another culture? can we only hear opinions of those born and raised? i read the piss comment as an off the cuff comment not as a condemnation of a country. but perhaps thats because when people ask me what my neighbourhood is like i often say "well if you dont mind piss in the stair well and occasional blood spatters its a dream! "

pink_orchid_martini

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @xay: way to make a generalization there. "white people"? can you seriously speak for all white people on that one? you are also placing way too much importance on a simple ex-pat's narrative. she didn't relay the info as if she was a yemeni citizen, she did it as an ex-pat. In the, "here is what it is like for a non-Yemeni to live in Yemen". I don't think that means that "white people" value her opinion over Yemenis. It's just a point of view. You make it seem like the only time we can ever hear about other countries if from people that have been born and lived there their whole lives. And she obviously doesn't consider herself an authority on Yemen. Making that assumption is just ignorant.
When I was living in South Africa a friend of mine, who had grown up in the Cape flats, told me all about her experience at Smith College. She was pretty down on how liberal it was. Frankly I was a bit offended by what she had to say, since I attended a liberal school similar to Smith, but I understood that it was her opinion and her observations as an outsider who was not used to that kind of environment. I think she'd be pretty offended if you told her that the value of her observations about American college life was detracted because she wasn't American.

ekaterinaballerina

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> i feel like it's really easy to tell people not to take the stuff you do and say seriously; i always hear people say that as an excuse for doing something sloppy.

i mean

"Piss smell is what happens when people are too poor to piss into elaborate sewage systems that eventually carries the scent to some far-off neighborhood you hope you never get stuck in traffic."

seriously??

pissfest1999

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> Dear Racialicious, Step away from the sanctimonious and narrow minded ways of thinking. The little box you have constructed for yourselves must feel suffocating at times. Come join the discussion. Great comeback Moe

(And not for one minute, do I believe that a Jezebel post caused any human being, anywhere to actually throw up.)

BeachLover

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @HeliosHyperion: with you on that, don't throw around racism complaints and then tuck in a shot at white bloggers, wtf? pot/kettle. enjoyed the yemen story and chicago tunnels to the lakefront often smell like piss too. see? we all have things in common, no matter where in the world we are.

whyknot

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> wait, so if we read Jezebel are we suppose to care about Lauren Conrad?

Cause I don't.

Shit, I can't read CNN ALL day! that trype is dull.

Sukie in the Graveyard

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @kami2000: see, i live in a place (NYC) where there is also a distinct smell of piss in some places. it's a simple fact, and not a judgement. people pee on the streets. i dont think expressing this truth makes you a racist.

jenalicious

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @hamburgerhotdog: Her point was pretty clear to me. She did not like that a white person who has no background or connection to Yemen was being held up as an authority. I disagree that Moe was holding up Sarah as an authority on Yemen, however, there is a long standing problem that goes back decades about the fact that white people tend to value the opinions of white outsiders over POC insiders on POC issues. Personally, I would rather have heard from a Yemen expatriate than Sarah not because every Yemeni shares the same world view but because I think that cultural insiders provide a perspective that is rarely heard - especially when it comes to societies that are so removed from Western cultural norms.

xay

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @slowtraincoming: "oh, and if one more woman pretends that wearing a veil over her entire face was wholly her decision, I'LL be the one puking. you know, here in america, we're not FORCED to be thin to be seen as a woman having value, but i'd say there are a couple forces at work making it appealing, huh? so don't ever tell me that it's completely your choice never to laugh or expose your face in public."

Whoa whoa whoa. There are plenty of women who cover their faces here in the US because they've decided to do so. Are you Muslim? Do you know what goes into making the decision on whether or not a woman covers her face?

TruculentandUnreliable

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> that Racialicious post was something else..

i do agree that to the casual reader, the original Moe - Sarah convo could have come off as slightly offensive, or at least with a mocking tone. However, if they author had taken the time to actually read over the posts she mentioned, and the comments that showed the diverse opinions of Jezebel readers, it would have shed light on the heart of the matter, but instead she simply jumped to conclusions, making what i feel was an incorrect assumption.

but i'm white, and jezebel "caters to me" so what do i know..

jenalicious

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @Benevolent_Dictatrix:
I suppose that begs the question: Is Moe a journalist? She is a blogger; is that the same thing? Does it entail the same ethical responsibilities of research and objectivity? I would argue that it doesn't.

Good point. I guess we each have a different definition for journalist vs blogger. To me, and this is just MO, a blogger doesn't get paid. The end. Just because the type of writing you do goes into a blog format doesn't mean you are creating a story or article for the pleasure of others to write and converse about. I come from old school days were bloggers wrote for themselves and others read if they were interested. Thats how my blogs still run today so I consider all of the writers on this website journalist who should be upheld to same responsibilities as any other journalist. But thats just how I feel and how I read the site.

sassydame *diva on a misson*

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> I was just thinking about that little girl today! I can see why people would get offended about the piss comment, I would totally be offended if I came from Yemen. But Jezebel is all about the discussions around the issue, not really about the issue.

kami2000

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> Fuck the haters. They're dismissed. Permanently. I'm not going to hump Moe's leg, b/c she already knows I heart her, alas.

Re: "...conversations that enhance our understanding of one another, and understanding is really only a legitimate goal if you think other humans are capable of independent thought."

Sure, they are. When that independent thought, however, becomes enmeshed into one that is collective, resulting in, say, a giant pedophile Mormon compound in Texas, or the oppression of others, reinforced not by the individual nor independent thought but by the power of the collective, what then?

The thing is, here is the world. Right now, this is what we've got. We're wherever we are and we can be aware and try to change shit and make it better but you know what's NOT going to change? That we were born into whatever level of privilege we were born into, so why fucking bother wasting anyone else's time with transparent, empty attempts to convince ourselves or anyone else otherwise? There will always be someone better off and a great deal more who are worse off than you, and it's up to you whether you carry yourself in shame or pride or a balance of both or in denial completely about it. Some, of course, willfully or otherwise simply stick their heads in the sand. (Some days, of course, I almost envy them their ignorance.)

I'm starving. I need to eat something.

@Archetype: I know, right? Fucking Tenderloin.

SBJ

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @hamburgerhotdog: the re: was meant for another poster.

hamburgerhotdog

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @xay: excuse me? I think you're the one being a little reactionary now. I wasn't even addressing you.

hamburgerhotdog

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @xay: I'm not even sure I could parse what exactly her point was. That people hold the worldview from the culture which they are raised? This is exlusively a Eurocentric thing? I'd have to disagree...it was an IM conversation about a women in the Middle East filtering her experience through her own world view--not some academic research piece.

hamburgerhotdog

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> moe, that might have been your best post yet. i am so tired of someone waiting for you to go out on a limb, to explore a new idea or point of view, to look at a culture that's not your own just so they can scold you, all "not so fast little white girl. you don't get to have an opinion on this, remember? you are forced to learn about other cultures but can never be critical of them." well done, moe.

oh, and if one more woman pretends that wearing a veil over her entire face was wholly her decision, I'LL be the one puking. you know, here in america, we're not FORCED to be thin to be seen as a woman having value, but i'd say there are a couple forces at work making it appealing, huh? so don't ever tell me that it's completely your choice never to laugh or expose your face in public.

slowtraincoming

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @Cuntlovin:
I can totally understand why a lot of people like to the casual flowy posts that happen on this site alot. Im a big fan of a lot of the writers for this site.

But these posts Moe makes that are thrown together just seem to be there for page views and controversy. Not enlightening or challenging a real issue. Even of the beginning of this post made me want to do the ol "headdesk" routine.

sassydame *diva on a misson*

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> It's not surprising. Jezebel is hardly known for it's sensitivity to traditional spiritual, feminist, or women of color issues. It is, afterall, a pretty "white" and irreverent blog. The question is: How many times can you be insulted before you stop reading? How many times can you ask them to include more women of color voices, so that coverage might be a little more balanced, before you realize they don't want to do so Comments like these from people from other ethinicities is what perpetuates the separation. I'm a hispanic reader who can relate to all the issues that Jezebel brings to the table.

wickedflea

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> In this explosion of comments, mine will probably go undetected (hooray?)...
I read the Racialicious kid's post (with as much interest, or lack thereof, as I applied to the above post and the related article) and the things I noticed they seemed to have an issue with was the fact that it was all done on IM. Note: for IM's they seem like pretty long replies... anyway...

They get upset about the IMs and the casual nature and then proceed to rake on its 'journalism' and how Sarah didn't know it would be published anyway. Now, if I ever talk to friends who blog, that fact never leaves my mind - what I say to them could get written in their posts. They are bloggers, it's what they do. Just like you can't stop artists from doodling on your notepads unless you Specifially ask them to stop. Habits. Nature. Bam.
And then calling an IM post journalism is a laugh! There is no editing, fact checking, verification of comments or an editor. It is a post. It is not an article. I have some lines up on my social website thingies, should they be reviewed for context, grammer and correctness? No. Don't even try it. I will kick you.

What these two people shared in the IM was a conversation (and one worth sharing). Should we attack them? Should we harp on their morals, tact or humanitarian views? God I hope not. Once in middle school, my friends and I joked about leaving a girl behind during a field trip and the events that could possibly take place after she found the bus gone - it was a hilarious discussion and we were 13. Should we have been punished for our violent descriptions of events, our lies (since well, it didn't happen and she actually was on the bus) or our racism as the girl in question happened to be from Jordan (to us, she was just Jana, the girl who got on the bus late - and liked all my fancy barrettes)? It was a conversation among friends.

So, that's what I think. And now that it's really long, I KNOW you won't be reading it.

And please remember the difference between blogs and news.

Oh, and could there ever be a conversation so profound and important that it alone changes the way women around the world are treated? I think one should attemmpt this and THAT would be worth posting.

Thank you, and I will continue to read Jezebel. You kids rock.

Sukie in the Graveyard

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @hamburgerhotdog: You singled out that portion of the Racialicious post and I addressed how it could have been done. Stop dragging hysterical red herrings around.

xay

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> "I wrote a silly, superficial joke-laden missive"
Again! You're really, really good at this.

La_Panique

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @ekaterinaballerina:

I agree...I think its one of the easiest traps to fall into when you get into the feminism of women of colour. Yes there is a huge amount of anger that comes with being precieved as and experiencing the world as a minority, particulalry in the field of feminism...that said it is no more constructive as a woman of colour feminist to decisively dismiss any product of Eurocentric thinking without exploration, than it is to presume a Eurocentric view of feminism applies to all women...that fact is it is always to simple to subscribe to generalizations and stereotype...

Cuntlovin

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @hamburgerhotdog: I don't believe I said they were or that I supported the blogger at Racialicious. But I'm not going to pretend that she didn't have a point either.

xay

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @lisas: I see. Good point.

Susan B.

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> This reads like a whole lot of backpedaling.

bruitdautrui

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @hamburgerhotdog: But Ross said it's the "murder capitol of the northeast" on Friends!

So confused....

Archetype

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @Cuntlovin: Ditto. Classic blogs are basically digital op-ed pieces, it's not news journalism delivered from an unbiased view.

Cam/ron

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @dayglo:

Also I just want to note that one of the things I love most about Jezebel is the relization that being a feminist and being socially conscious doesn't mean one has to be dropped dead serious and preachy...I think its important and I appreciate Moes use of snark and wit in exploring feminist thoughts and ideas (and Lauren Conrad).

Cuntlovin

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @HeliosHyperion: EXACTLY!!!!!

ekaterinaballerina

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @hamburgerhotdog: Not to mention this person isn't even Yemeni, hasn't been to Yemen, and her claim to authority is knowing someone who is Yemeni.

Hey, I know one person from Newark, don't anyone dare say Newark is a murderous place, even if it is...you know, statistically and stuff.

hamburgerhotdog

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @sassydame *diva on a misson*: But that's the point, she has no time.

Moe, I know you said you were writing a book and I'm sure you love writing for Jezebel because maybe it does give you more time to do so. For me though, it feels as though your posts do tend to be thrown together with a racy headline so that you can get paid more. There's nothing wrong with wanting people to read it but if you're going to do that, maybe you should take it a little more seriously, like this post. This post is probably the greatest thing I've read from you.

dummyfakeroller

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> Kudos, Moe, for a heartfelt and beautifully written post. I'm glad to see you stick up for moderation and call out those blogs on "the sense that they are standing by, waiting to catch us being insensitive." I think Jezebel leans a little PC anyway, but for chrissake, you have common sense!

Imma go vomit at Abortion man now.

RosietheRatcheter

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> I commented in defense of Jezebel over at Racialicious. I made sure to point out that considering where Yemen ranks in terms of treatment of women, it was perfectly reasonable to ask someone why the hell they were moving there.
Some people are wayyyyy too sensitive and seem to really not understand that people are entitled to their own opinions.
What I found offensive about her post was how utterly self-righteous it was. It was almost like she was saying that all of us were low-class, stupid and ignorant and that she, of course!, knew better. She basically stated that she was completely right on this situation and that Jezebel was of course wrong.People really need to find a way to talk about racism without acting like they always know better than everyone else. Some things are a matter of opinion, not fact.
I happen to love Jezebel. If you don't, then DON'T READ IT. Simple as that.

ekaterinaballerina

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @Susan B.: We do, but not because those bloggers are seen as authorities. Which is what the Racialicious writer claims about Jezebel and Sarah-lately-of-Yemen

lisas

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @hamburgerhotdog: fact, not face.

hamburgerhotdog

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @xay: Well, conversely I imagine you would have a problem with someone who is completely unfamiliar with this website decrying the whole website based upon a post she didn't read all the way through and feelings she could infer the face we're all racists based upon that. Myopic world views aren't limited to white people, apparently.

hamburgerhotdog

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @dayglo:
Sorry lol I just try to minimize girl on girl crime...I can't get into her mind so I don't want to theorize for her disdain of of white girl bloggers being white herself....

Cuntlovin

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> Racialicious? really?
I cant take anything on a website with that name seriously.

ineffable.me

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @Archetype: He was drinking water with lemon in it. And gave me shit for my Guinness which "isn't even vegan friendly".

@nothanks: They will only eat things which don't kill the plant, so yes, fruit and nuts only.

Think of the most self-righteous hardcore vegan you've ever met and then multiply that by about 500. Insufferable doesn't begin to describe it.

Triphena

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @Benevolent_Dictatrix:
I agree it doesn't...blog is different from journalism (in my eyes) in very different and important ways...

Cuntlovin

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @Cuntlovin: Ya, I should have counted to ten before calling her a cow.

I disagree with her whole premise, but I'm sure she's a very nice, very sensitive person.

She is white though, which surprised me because she seemed so disdainful of "white bloggers" and she IS one...

dayglo

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> Oh just to put this out there: I asked Sarah if I could interview her about Nojoud since she had offered herself up on the blog as the stories' editor, and then we started talking, and I didn't realize she didn't realize I would post the interview. I felt bad it could not have been more thoughtful or informative. I'm not a journalist. And I'm sorry to anyone who is offended by the Lauren Conrad reference, but not totally sorry, and maybe one day I'll explain myself more fully on that one as well, but not now bc I have to post.

Moe

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @sassydame *diva on a misson*: I suppose that begs the question: Is Moe a journalist? She is a blogger; is that the same thing? Does it entail the same ethical responsibilities of research and objectivity? I would argue that it doesn't.

Benevolent_Dictatrix

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @hamburgerhotdog: That is actually what bothered me most about the original article. I did not understand what was the point of posting what was essentially an outsider's perspective. It made the lighthearted quality of the post seem kind of mocking. I don't see what would be offensive about asking someone who is from Yemen to comment on the situation - provided that they are not put in the position of speaking for all Yemeni (?).

And the "sparking discussion" line is a cop out - especially in this case.

xay

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @TheOtherJen: Dodai and Anna, from what I understand.

Honestly, I don't read any posts with IM conversations, because they are too hard to follow and I never have the time.

The writer lost me when she said "I don't read Jezebel."

As for the comments to her article, there were some from Jezebel contributers. I can't say that I am in disagreement about all of the commenting "rules," that have been put in place. I enjoy the randomness that pops up in some of the conversations. I've hated seeing the "stay on topic" comments.

Archetype

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> I can understand and empathize with both you and the detractors. However, her entire argument, for me, comes to nothing when she starts talking about "white bloggers." You can't make racist comments like that when you're crying racist. And no, I don't care that it was a reference to an on-going argument between certain white and "non-white" bloggers, or how nasty it got and who was a racist jackass, this writer is herself making racist jackass comments. So I'm with you on this, Moe.

HeliosHyperion

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> I'd much rather see an IM conversation about the everyday ins and outs of a person living in Yemen (however brief) than long winded diatribe on the evils of suppression. I can do my own internet research. If not for the human aspect (serious or no), I wouldn't even care to look and find out what the whole picture is all about.

blubirde

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @sassydame *diva on a misson*:

See I dont know, I sort of like the casual more thrown together nature of Jezebel because alot of what consitutes good journalism reflects gender and class values about what information is valuable in the media...so I think blogs and posts on Jezebel serve a really important purpose...

Cuntlovin

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> I get that as a Muslim woman, the author of the Racialicious post may feel like she constantly needs to defend her religion. This is a case of when knowing the audience is important. Who reads Jezebel? I'd say we're a really open minded lot. We also tend to see the sarcasm in everything Moe writes about.

To tell you the truth, all I know about Yemen is that it was once known as Arabia Felix. It's interesting to learn something other than a 2000 year old name. (Like despite how despicable it is that an 8 yr old can be married to a 30 yr old, she can also get a divorce more easily than in some Christian counties. I'm looking at you Ireland with your 10 year old divorce rights!)

Moe- We love ya!

Motown

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @Susan B.: Yes, but I wouldn't consider Drunken Stepfather an authority on anything other than masturbation.

hamburgerhotdog

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @Dodai: But ahhh... there's the rub: Racialicious thinks it's is the authority.

ceejeemcbeegee

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @Archetype: There's nothing like the scent of a BART train at the end of a hot summer night.

Cam/ron

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> I don't understand why these things keep happening. Moe writes something ridiculous, hastily sometimes, as she puts, and everyone gets upset. Wouldn't it be easier if a journalist took their time to oh, I don't know, research and write a good poignant article rather than posting something in such an awkward messy manner and then getting upset when other people reply back with, gasp, another article.

sassydame *diva on a misson*

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> Reading her blog, she completely contradicts herself, saying on the one hand that people shouldn't write about what they don't know about, yet she says she doesn't read Jezebel and then attacks the site for being racist and only projecting a white point of view. And correct me if I am wrong, but isn't at least one of the writers here someone of color? I consistently read posts that tackles racism (i.e. Glamour editor who condemned dreadlocks/afros).

I don't understand why she felt she needed to puke after reading that story. It's an outsider's tongue-in-cheek perspective of a foreign country, like foreigners who visit the US haven't done that before? It was written so outsiders could identify with a place they've never been and some that probably have never heard of. If readers want a politically correct, staid profile of Yemen, they can pick up an encyclopedia.

The only point I can agree with is if that IM conversation really was posted without that girl's consent, which is a huge no-no in journalism. I doubt that the editors don't know that already though.

Girlfriend needs to get off her high horse.

TheOtherJen

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @TruculentandUnreliable: Wise, you are.

Archetype

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> Moe, I'm sorry you have to deal with shit like this. Totally retarded.

BTW, last night Yemen somehow came up in conversation and I told my boyfriend "I hear the entire country smells like piss." He said "Hmm" and we moved on.

I love my stinky city.

NOLA girl

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> Anybody remember the Pandagon dustup about the burka? Yeah? No? Eerily familiar and my ass is staying out of this one, too.

TruculentandUnreliable

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @PetiteGal: "I find that they're, at times, preaching to the choir...most people on that blog seem to agree with each other already"

I'm sure they say the same of us.

Susan B.

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @lisas: We get just as worked up about non-CNN-calibre sources. Just look at the Missdemeanors feature, where Dodia rightfully calls out blogs for their sexism!

I agree that the Racialicious writer (suddenly the page isn't loading so I can't find the name, if there is one) doesn't do a great job of explaining a lot of the post--just quoting Moe's statements without explaining how they're untrue doesn't help a newcomer--but Moe's response is telling. Was it that you were in the right, or in a hurry?

Susan B.

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> Isn't the point of news on most blogs to create jumping-off points for discussion and exploration (not just Jezebel!)? How did the Racialicious poster miss that?

Devonna

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @Triphena: people who just eat fruit? or people that think its mean to eat fruit? either way now im going to vomit

nothanks

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @lisas: I was going to say that. The critic first wrote numerous disclaimers that shot down her credibility and she then jumped into a sensationalized paragraph about how Jezebel caused her to vomit. She completely missed the fact that Jezebel is a Gawker Media site and that snark is its language.

BTW, Racialious pisses me whenever I visit it, speaking as a Eurasian.

Cam/ron

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @dayglo:

I guess that is the only way Jezebel could satisfy me more...I understand where Moe is coming from and I also understand where the author of the Racialicious post is coming from...they seem to both have to very different interpretations about the place of Jezebel and the piece in relation to media responsibility and I dont think its a question that gets answered with saying ones right and ones wrong (or eh hem calling people cows...) That said as a woman as mixed race I love love love Jezebel, and most of the time commentors and bloggers apply really inclusive open logic to their thoughts but yes a little less Eurocentric basis would be nice...

Cuntlovin

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> I lurk at Racialicious, and sometimes respond to their posts, but I find that they're, at times, preaching to the choir...most people on that blog seem to agree with each other already. Others seem to have "an agenda" and get upset at people who are Eurocentric...especially minorities who are!

PetiteGal

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> And that is why I don't read Racialicious. They are too hamstrung by their own rules of discourse to ever have an interesting conversation about anything.

Benevolent_Dictatrix

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> @hypnotic: I wish I knew. It's sad that it's giving Jezebel such a bad name.

Is it true that Sarah didn't know the conversation would be published?

And, I'm sorry: "What? I was just trying to spark debate!" is a time-honored cop-out. And now that Moe actually HAS sparked debate, she's pissed about it.

Also Moe, way to imply that anyone who didn't like your post only cares about Lauren Conrad. Classy.

Susan B.

]]> <![CDATA[Is It "Mocking A Culture" To Talk About Piss?]]> " it's sad that this is how people relax and chat with their friends"

O, that's what's sad about the world.