<![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild? - Jezebel Comments]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild? - Jezebel Comments]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> I've only read the first page of comments, but I'm SO GlAD there are Jezebels out there that share my thoughts on this subject. You've all made such poignant comments on the issue.

Gen_Next

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> Maybe it's not that these girls think it's the only way to be sexy, it's just the easiest way for them to get attention quickly. Instant gratification is the path taken by lazy girls and guys.

emptee_head

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @Archetype: I think it's really revealing the culture for what it is and what we make it.People need to stop blaming everyone and everything for their actions!I suppose the preacher said it was the devil that got into them, instead of them doing what the Hell they wanted to do.And yes,the end of the world is probably near, but Hell...every generation says that.

constancescott1990

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @sarrible: Dude, I lived in my brother's jeans, flannels, thermal shirts and Converse. For a thirteen-year-old girl who was totally freaked out by her body, it was a godsend.

whynotshesaid

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @brendastarlet: I'm not saying sexualized behavior wasn't happening back in the 90s, but it wasn't quite as in-your-face and aggressive as it is now. I mean, I had my share of drunken hookups, and I may have flashed my tits once or twice, but there was never a crowd of dudes standing around me chanting "Show your tits!" when I did it.

whynotshesaid

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @littlebluebug: I also can't help but think it comes back to the greater influence of the corporation nowadays than as little as 10 years ago. It used to be studios were owned in and of themselves and those old guys knew the nature of the beast and it allowed for a far more creative and interesting Hollywood. A Hollywood that would take chances. Than when you've got these corporations stepping in and buying them up they bring with them their intense need for "focus grouping" and making sure there is always a profit. A company that makes toasters does not understand that film-making is a high stakes gamble. It used to be that the studios accepted this- the 'you can't have a hit all the time and you never know what will strike a chord' attitude that large corporate fucks can't. They used to take real chances. Now everything has to be fit into neat little boxes, stereotypes strictly adhered to because they are easy... and in the end drive more consumerism. Because if you convince a woman through a movie that she's nothing if she's not wearing the right clothes or makeup that means she'll BUY BUY BUY more.

Wow, I'm sorry it's late and I think it's bringing out the bitter socialist in me...

Sunshineyness

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @Sunshineyness: I think it's the same reason why most of the best Hollywood writing is done for television these days: it's a writer-driven rather than director-driven medium, with a quick turnaround time for episodes and thus less time for focus-group-ing and other tampering. Television is an insatiable beast that requires hours and hours of programming to fill it... there can't be as much executive fuckery and star interference as there often is in features, and when there is the shows generally start to deteriorate.

In addition, television's viewership has traditionally skewed more female than feature film viewership, for whatever reasons [and those reasons have turned into a self-perpetuating cycle as networks continue to feed a real or perceived dominant demographic]. The past couple of decades have seen an explosion in both output and quality of scripted programming, especially as a generation of TV show runners who were born and raised in the TV age, and recognize how much more opportunity and latitude they have in TV, have really come into their own.

Also, I can relate to your gripe about men... my being a geek doesn't score any points at all. Although geeky men have just as many issues as the frattish ones, they just manifest slightly differently.

LBB

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @beatrice3000: You're right- totally forgot about those. Esspecially odd considering how much I adore all those shows.

@littlebluebug: I think you're right, but I wonder why that is though? Is it because of the money risk is higher in film than television? I just would love to see it back on the big screen, personally.

@marie123: I hear ya. I don't know how many times I've seen geeky/smart/'nice' guys go out with fake t&a girls simply to indulge their HS 'cheerleader complex' and than bemoan that they can't ever find girl's that like comic books or action movies, or sci-fi, etc. I always want to smack them and tell them it's only because they refuse to open their eyes up to the plain Jane in the corner reading a comic book. But many that's just a personal gripe on men...

Sunshineyness

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @Sunshineyness: I think it's moved to TV -- Buffy, Alias, etc. Even Chuck.

LBB

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @Cunning_Linguist: And can you truly begrudge a guy for wanting and choosing to date someone he is physically attracted to? I'm pretty sure there are quite a few women who do the same thing."

Nope. I think that's the most depressing point.

Kinda sucks to be the "reject with a heart of gold/is a fully clothed plain Jane" who loses to hot, T-and-A generous chick with a so-so personality.

marie123

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @Sunshineyness: There are/were good heroines on Firefly and Battlestar Galactica. To be honest, I've only watched a few episodes of each show, but appreciated the intelligence and strength of those characters.

beatrice3000

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> Oh, and not to get on the nostalgia train (because I normally hold strident to the belief that nostalgia is just that, nostolgia and things aren't THAT much better before we just choose to believe that because everything older is 'quainter' and yes I know I'm doing it now too- the hypocracy is not lost on me.) TOO MUCH...

But what fucking happened to women in action movies? In the 90's we had Sarah Fucking Connor, and in the 80's we had mother fuckin' Ripley tearing up shit in a completely non-sexualized manner (Okay, Sigourney (SP? I can never spell it...) did have to be in her underwear, but it was ONE SCENE) I honestly can't think of any movies lately where the ladies are tearing up the shit like that and NOT in a Charlie's Angel male pornographic fantasy way. (AKA Mila Jovovich in Resident Evil, to a lesser extent Storm/Jean Gray in X-Men, etc)

Sunshineyness

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> I'm blaming Rush Limbaugh on this one (I know, easy target) and his coining of the phrase "feminazi." I can't even count the number of intelligent career oriented women who proclaim they are not feminists. Or say that the fight is over and we are all equal now, or that if we ignore the problem it will go away and that by proclaiming something sexist we are making the matter worse.

I was talking about Barrack vs Hillary the other day and when I told my (male) friend that I couldn't believe how blatantly sexist the media is to Hillary he groaned and rolled his eyes at my simply believing that male candidates aren't critiqued on most of the things she is (her husband, her clothes, how "emotional" she is). And he's not a woman hater, he isn't an ass, he's actually a total sweetheart liberal. So I totally believe that there is a large portion of the male population (even the nice "enlightened" ones) that think that the feminism war is "over" and everything is perfect and any woman who calls something misogynistic or sexist is bitching or "making a fuss" over nothing. I really don't think that attitude was prevalent 10 - 15 years ago. I think this is backlash from the whole "PC" movement of the 90's.

Sunshineyness

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @Xavoc: Well you clearly are looking for a meaningful relationship not based on shallowness...ha!

doggotmyshoes

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @Cunning_Linguist: Let's also just pay attention to smart guys and ignore the dumb ones. But you know, ignoring dumbasses of either gender doesn't compeltely work,because then you end up with the Phyllis Schlafly's of the world. It's good to tell people that GGW and Kristen are very much NOT your typical female.

doggotmyshoes

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @It'stheRooo: "Men want a virgin who is a whore." My friend told me my appeal was that I come off as a shy librarian type who has a vivid erotic imagination, and that's a major fantasy for guys. It's cool, but I don't feel like fulfilling that fantasy for just anyone.

beatrice3000

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @dakardame: I agree that perceived (not real) societal expectations based upon advertisement and media shame portray the GGW type woman as being ideal for dating.

I prefer women with curves, I prefer them to be comfortable with their own bodies, and I prefer that they not be actively working on promoting skin cancer growth upon their bodies.

I don't want to be married to a leather handbag.

Xavoc

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @ineffable.me: Wow. You have perfectly expressed what was going through my mind. Thank You.

Brigit

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @hortense: "Men want a vigrin who is also a whore." Wasn't that a quote on here the other day?

Plus, somewhere in psychology, it's called pushback. When you change the dynamics in a dysfunctional situation, the person(s) in the situation that is/are not changing will sometimes (figutatively) shout, "Change Back!"

That's the kind of pressure a lot of men are putting on a lot of women. The patriarchal apologist "Let Me Showz Mah Titz Before They Ask Meh" women are just knuckling under more easily to the pressure, because they figure it's easier than fighting for what they want and/or earning their own way.

The really sad thing is how frequently they seem to be right about that.

Rooo sez BISH PLZ

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @MaeHemm: Ditto. Riot Grrrl was a tiny subculture that the mainstream media falsely portrayed as a major movement alongside Seattle Grunge. It quickly became a cliche to call a band "riot grrrl" by '95.

To be devil's advocate, what does "owning" one's sexuality mean? Isn't promiscuity or so-called "sluttness" a form of sexual ownership - the woman is still doing what she wants with her body and sexuality out of her free will, right? Another devil's advocate question - if sexuality is not about pleasing youself by pleasuring others, what does that leave sexuality? Mere masturbation?

Cam/ron

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @I, SBJ, A Fucking Dyke: One good thing about a goth kid . . . they don't show any skin and they cover their pretty faces with horrible black eye-liner and bangs. Awesome. She doesn't realize the main reason she doesn't get any attention is because she doesn't show her damn face. :)

I pulled a Bauhaus ALBUM out of the basement and she looked at me like I just set my hair on fire. (Woooow Mom! They listened to THAT back then?!)

triggerhappy

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @cautionarywhale: You can get some April March on eMusic. I've been listening to her yé-yé-influenced album Paris in April nonstop.

LBB

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @littlebluebug: I second that notion!

I loved Grow Up and Blow Away...I didn't get it until it was officially issued, so it makes waiting for the next album easier. I also loved Emily Haines's solo album.

Been wanting to check out April March. I've listened to some samples and I'm just waiting on my tax returns so I can go on another music splurge.

cautionarywhale

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @J.D.Regent: I'm very sad about Courtney...I listened to Hole throughout my entire pregnancy and everyone gave me hell for it.

doggotmyshoes

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> Here is my personal answer to owning your sexuality while going out, having fun, being flirty and looking sexy:

If you go home with your girlfriends and it doesn't matter to you whether or not men bought drinks for you, looked at you and/or videotaped you stripping while promising they had the connections to launch your MTV video dancer career and finally, you go to sleep happy that you had a fun night, then you're good.

If you're headed home and all you can think about is how many guys hit on you and whether or not they will call, or you're crying into your pillow because your best friend met some drunk asshole and you didn't -- then your feminist center is WAY out of alignment.

rbdfoxes

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> I see this as the results of two cultural movements: The first was the Femi-Nazi response to feminist from the Right Wing in the 1980s and 1990s, which created the cultural impression that feminists are unfeminine, man-hating, and mean. That made young women want to distance themselves from the word feminism. Then came along "girl power," the idea that in order to be powerful you should use your sexuality, which of course feeds into every male fantasy but doesn't help women out very much. Combine those two things, add 18 years, and you get today's problem.

These are dire times, all right. No one is doing anything about it either.

Joy L.

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @J.D.Regent: They DON'T get paid? Are you sure about that? Do you have proof? I mean that's actually kind of stupid....

doggotmyshoes

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @beatrice3000: DUDE! YES!!!!! I totally still have that issue of Spin. It changed my life.

And I have that Grrrls book too. Rad.

ineffable.me

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @warmaiden: Tawny Kitaen. And she was on The Surreal Life judging one of the other female celebrities for being a nudie model, yet Tawny made her name spread-eagled on a car hood.

In 1997, Spin magazine put out the Girl issue, which was a tribute to female pop culture in rock and movies and books. As a teen, I really liked it, and learned about more cult movies and punk rockers through it.

I was just thinking about the Ray of Light album yesterday and how good it was because of William Orbit's electronic work on it.

Of female rock bands/singers out there who aren't ditzes, there's Jenny Lewis, Nellie McKay, Alice Smith, Fiona Apple, Shelby Lynne, Feist, Rasputina, Nickel Creek, and a lot of other artists in the "indie" category.

I still have my old copy of Grrrls: Viva Rock Divas, a book of interviews with female rock singers that are insightful and interesting and have tons of to say about life and their music. It's dated (published in 1994), but I still think it's a great book.

I liked Ariel Levy's book. It had a lot of good points about the pornification of young women.

beatrice3000

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @Xavoc: "And can you truly begrudge a guy for wanting and choosing to date someone he is physically attracted to? I'm pretty sure there are quite a few women who do the same thing."
Sure, but let's not lose sight of the fact that those standards of beauty/hottness that guide people's choices are also related to a lot of social stuff, too. Why do men want to date GGW types? In part it is because we as a society now not only accept but encourage GGW behavior. It's not the guys' fault, it's a big corporate titty-industrial complex which is raking it in on spray-tanner, belly-shirts, and tweeny-pedis, not to mention boobs themselves whether "jobbed" or "jabbed." Oh, and the diet industry.

dakardame

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> Also, Katie Roiphe is a feminist in exactly the same way that I am a ham sandwich.

nerdsausage is a busysausage

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @brendastarlet: Yes, well...maybe I am crazy but can't we blame, ahem, see some causation in, the generation of parents? I mean, isn't something up with your parenting skills if your 18 or 19 yr old daughter has "Gone Wild"? Did something change between the generation that had kids in the 70s and the generation that had their kids in the 80s?

dakardame

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @hamstarr: exactly.

nerdsausage is a busysausage

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> And, to address Girls Gone Wild head-on for a sec, what makes it so toxic is that it preys on the sexual insecurity everybody feels when they're young. It's natural to mistake the pornographer's gaze for validation when you think nobody wants to see you clothed, much less naked, and with things like GGW and camgirl websites and whatnot, our ability to make idiots of ourselves as college kids without too many lasting consequences has been sharply curtailed. It seems really hard to draw a line between bemoaning how trashy today's girls are and slut-shaming them.

nerdsausage is a busysausage

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> Hugo Schwyzer = Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Seriously, you ladies should do a story on that.

lemerde

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> I think it's not whether you're playing the game -- it's whether you're writing the rules.

hamstarr

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> Oh come the fuck on. The riot grrrl scene was awesome, but Kathleen Hannah didn't ascend to Feminist Heaven in 1994. I'm amazed I haven't seen anyone mention Le Tigre, or the whole culture of self-aware, savvy feminist culture they're tied into. Including Bitch and Bust magazines, PJ Harvey (White Chalk Hills is kind of a feminist masterpiece), the whole archipelago of feminist web sites that are largely driven by college-aged women, Lily Allen, Amy Winehouse, etc etc etc. (Winehouse and Allen are kind of spectacles in their own right, but they're also talented artists first and sexy broads second.)

The whole reason riot grrrl culture got the media attention in the first place was because everyone was trying to figure out how to coopt it for their own advantage, and in large part the reason groups like Bikini Kill and Bratmobile got so uppity about sexual autonomy is because the media kept trying to push the "they have messy hair and dress like tramps and are all strident and scary but they're still, like, womanly and secretly kinda hot" frame. Susan Faludi may come across as a nut from time to time these days, but Backlash is no less timely than it was when it was originally published. The patriarchy will always attempt to subvert threats to itself.

Also, anyone who uses The Real World as a barometer for social mores has something wrong with them. From Season 1 that show was a bullshit spectacle, and had less to do with reality than a carefully constructed version thereof designed to support whatever bullshit marketing initiative Viacom had going on at the time. The women and the men alike have gotten dumber and sleeker over time as MTV have refined their ability to use it to target that valuable youth demographic.

Just a thought: if you run across a lot of empty-headed, superficial women on TV and the radio and in the tabs, that might be because there are people out there who want you to see women that way.

nerdsausage is a busysausage

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> Has anyone ever seen ads for the Guys Gone Wild series? Those dudes sooo don't realize that they're making porn to be viewed by other guys. Hilarious! It would make my year to see a familiar frat face in one of them.

hotpotatoes

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @AthertonMerriweather: Oh yes, Sia: "I am small and needy/Wrap me up/And breathe me".

I'm not disagreeing with your point, and I actually like that song, but she's a baaad example to include in that list.

bruitdautrui

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @cautionarywhale: Metric is [are?] the shit. I have been known to roll out of my office's garage blasting "Raw Sugar" and "Combat Baby" at top volume. Other badass women who rock: Dressy Bessy, April March, Holly Golightly, Peaches, Sharin Foo of the Raveonettes, Rachel Flotard of Visqueen.

It occurs to me that the head Jezebelles should start a recurring music feature similar to Fine Lines. How much would that kick ass?

@I, SBJ, A Fucking Dyke: That's a great age... still young enough to be a kid but starting to become "grown up", before the adolescent crap starts to kick in.

@Dashrashi: I managed to escape the worst of the adolescent crap mostly thanks to the influence of really badass parents, so there's hope :)

LBB

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @Alohamaid: Man do I fucking hate Maxim. I actually used to read it because I thought it was, besides the naked chicks, very random and funny. I was also a teenager.

I think that having a "oops-I-fucked-up" stage is pretty important; if I hadn't gone through that, I wouldn't have learned half the shit that I know today about confidence, sexuality, self-esteem, etc etc. You suffer, you fuck up, you learn.

Quite frankly, I don't give a shit if a guy thinks I've slept around too much. If he can't accept my number, then I don't know how we'll ever get along. Finding a guy who will respect me is the least of my worries, especially when it's practically a job in itself to respect yourself in the kind of environment we live in. Why can't I be sexy, assertive, smart, and accomplished? I mean, I know that I can be, but people are just confused by the idea. As if it can't really exist.

Let's just pay more attention to smart chicks and try to ignore the dumb ones, mmkay?

Cunning_Linguist

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @marie123: It depends upon why she changes her standards. Is it because she's desperate to find love and companionship that society preaches she must find and have, or is it because she has consciously re-evaluated the things she is looking for and has made honest adjustments in her thinking as to what is or is not acceptible in a mate.

Physical chemistry plays a huge part in attraction. I've met some physically amazing lookin women who smell to me like moldy gym socks. Nobody else seemed to notice, but to me it's a good sign they're not the right person for me.

And can you truly begrudge a guy for wanting and choosing to date someone he is physically attracted to? I'm pretty sure there are quite a few women who do the same thing.

Having high standards as to what you want out of a mate certainly lowers the number of potential suitors, but really that's a choice and tradeoff you make.

Xavoc

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @Molly Crabapple: Sexiness (even tanned, Maxim sexiness) is not incompatable with smarts."

I agree with that. But I think triggerhappy said what I wanted to.

Even non-fratboys will choose the girl who is "hot", non-mean, and passably interesting/interested in him over the girls who are legitimately grossed out by this stuff. It popularizes roles that are imposed as an ideal on girls in general....even among an audience of guys who straddle the line between "frat douche" and "nice guy."

That and even if the problem could just be taken care of by avoiding frat douches...doesn't GGW culture contribute to a culture of douche guys who applaud and demand this?

When does a girl's changing her standards = lowering them?

marie123

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @elusya: Too bad the things people liked from the Ray of Light album are really more attributed to the fact that William Orbit did the production work on most of the big hits from that album...


+ Watch video

I'm not saying she isn't talented. Just that what was considered her comeback album had a heavy electronica influence from someone well established.

The biggest issue I see with women in the industry is that many of popular ones fall into the manufactured 'pop' category. Which means someone else created their image to begin with.

They're not real people, they're manufactured automatons. Britney, Spice Girls, Paula Abdul, Pussycat Dolls.... All manufactured, packaged, and sent along to destroy people's taste in music.

Here's a good tip for how music is made to be popular.


+ Watch video




Xavoc

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> Glad you pointed out how self-absorbed she is. I just can't take her attempts at analysis of anything seriously. I think "Female Chauvinist Pigs" has a lot interesting stuff to say on this subject.

nasturtium

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @TheGintheCity: EXACTLY!!! The same exact thing happened to me about a week ago. Weeeiiirrrdddd.

Cunning_Linguist

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> Anyone read Haywood's Fantomina ? I think what the meaning of a woman's power is has been an issue (although obviously in a much different way) probably forever...that was written in 1725, when proper ladies still had chaperones and weren't allowed alone with men until after marriage. But it's SO important to recognize that power/self-assurance doesn't have anything to do with gender distinctions or relations. That's what I think we're dealing with here: women believing that they have a greater self worth when they have more influence (often sexual) over others, when in fact by allowing these interactions (and therefore other people) to influence what they think about themselves, they're only creating a dependence that supports their inferiority. I don't think this idea of "happiness" and self-worth originated from certain magazines, MTV, etc. -- this is not a new thing -- but I do think that many of these kinds of sources support this idea and its continuation (which, let me just say, is fucked up). I think it's a phenomenon that we are a lot more aware of now -- there's certainly a lot less privacy than there was in 1725 -- because of the Internet, increased communication, etc...which is actually probably good, since it's forcing us to recognize and respond to it. But just because it's more obvious doesn't necessarily mean it's more prevalent...it's just what gets air time. There are plenty of women out there who are self-assured in their own right, and the majority of college students I know would rather laugh at MTV than conform to its ideals. Don't give up, ladies -- it's depressing, but one day we will all be I-N-D-E-P-E-N-D-E-N-T.

peanutbutterspoon

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @marie123: But what about when the "smart girls" who still want to be seen as sexually desirable have to do it on 'stupid terms', not those that allow them some self-respect and choice in the matter? It might become a dynamic of "show us your boobs!" or "no sexual intimacy/pleasure for you"

They should seek out partners who aren't frat boys.

And if a smart chick does show her boobs to GGW or make out with her best friend for attention? So what! It doesn't take away from her IQ or ability to get shit done. Sexiness (even tanned, Maxim sexiness) is not incompatable with smarts. The only people who are negatively affected by this are women too dumb to monetize their hotness or cultivate anything about themselves besides being hot.

Most women (like most men) are never going to be astrophysicists. It's more productive to give financial and media support to articulate, brilliant

Molly Crabapple

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @littlebluebug: 10! (ZOMG, 10, it is perpetually sinking in...)

@J.D.Regent: So, on the doubting exploitation thing...it's an interesting point. Do Jesus freaks exploit recovering addicts and/or ex-gangbangers? Do pageant moms exploit their kids? Does Gap, et al exploit workers for slave wages in third-world countries? Or is that just the wrong word, or an outdated one? Part of me thinks that it fits, but that it, at least pertaining to women/misogyny, is broken out over a huge spread of other, more accurate terms, kind of like how muddled and crazy defining queer sexuality can get in the queer community, you know?

@triggerhappy: Moody goth kid! I feel you. Mine is intermittently moody. Good times, good times. Keep it up, yo. You can do it.

buggeroff

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @rednrowdy: I totally agree with you on your points regarding men in the industry. They don't have to deal with all that women do.

But I guess I was thinking that Madonna was controlling her image, whatever that might be on a given week. Also Doesn't madonna write her own songs as well? I seem to remember that from her Ray album. I could be wrong.

elusya

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> There's a huge difference between dressing like a whore, because that's who you are 100% of the time so rocking the look works well for you and... This is apparently the style, so I have to look and act like a whore to be accepted, happy, and popular.

Reality TV isn't reality. It's people playing to the camera for ratings and a futile hope that their 15 minutes of fame will somehow last beyond the show when it's over.

This faux voyeurism that is canned and fed to people on TV really just keeps getting worse. I'm actually happy to see that the majority of these shows are disappearing. I stopped watching TV for about 6 years because of it.

Oh, and if you regularly look, dress, and act like a whore. Don't get upset when someone treats you like one.

Xavoc

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @ineffable.me: I don't think it was. (Insert slanty-face emoticon here.)

Dashrashi

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @littlebluebug: Eh. I worry about this. I was hella cool when I was little, and then 11-19ish, I was a shitshow (like, I remember the day when I was like, I think I'm supposed to start hating my body now. Well, better get to it. And so I did). Now I'm cool again, I think. Cf. Reviving Ophelia--a lot of girls start out awesome mini-feminists, but have to go through a nice long stage of being fucked up before we (hopefully) regain our senses. And of course a lot of us start out fucked up, or start out cool, get fucked up, and never get better.
Here's hoping for SBJ's daughter, though. Either that she can escape it, or that her fucked-up stage only lasts for an hour and a half.

Dashrashi

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @elusya: lots of men in the music industry aren't the greatest singers, but in almost every case i can think of, those guys usually wrote the song. they also aren't judged by how hot they are, or by the new outfit or haircut they are sporting every other year. they write and record their own material, and no record executive ever goes up to them and says "you know, you should do something about your beergut/thinning hair/etc."

rednrowdy

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> I think as far as reality shows go, everyone is so used to them and so jaded that in order to make it more interesting networks and contestants up the sleeze factor. Remember Temptation Island? Kind of shocking when it came out but tame compared to the class acts out there today.

LahFawnDuh

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @msAnthrope: Well said.

I'd also like to say that I've tried to raise my daughter to be smart, independent and as fearless as possible. The problem, is that no matter what good I've done, she is still bombarded with images, ideals etc.: of what other people think it is to be a girl, to be a "desired" girl. Fuck - I can remember dreading sending her to kindergarten, because I knew that was the last time I'd have complete control over what she saw and experienced, and I'm sure this is no different than what my mother felt.

It is definately a different world now. When she sees what gets all the boy's attention, she knows it's boobs, and ass, whores. I'm proud of her in that she's still the moody goth kid, but it's frustrating to teach your kid to be confident in yourself, love yourself, when in fact, the world can't get enough of the sluts. I mean this kind of thing has always been in play, but it just seems to me that in the last 10 years, it's worse.

You're right - it's a scary thing to raise a girl in this world.

triggerhappy

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @stefzizzle: Agreed on both points.
And if you threw a party... invited everyone you knew... :)

jewess

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @ForeverBlueGirl: well i do hope that was sarcasm.

ineffable.me

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @Dashrashi: Haha you don't sound 'old farty' i understand where you are coming from. I think the real convo we could have is what you mentioned about whether the culture is really created or mirrored by media. I personally think neither; i believe that there is culture and there is media and those two things are totally separate. This may be because i work in television so it's really easy to separate the two for me.

I am very interested in self-deception too! did you listen to that npr 'radio lab' about lying? They covered self deception and it was really interesting- their podcasts are free :)

jewess

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @littlebluebug: You're totally right. We've got millions of people who really believe that ignorance is bliss. Heartbreaking.

stefzizzle

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> Wow, this brings up a LOT of issues!

But uh, you know, girls want to get laid too! Dressing slutty, being filmed fucking and all that stuff is fun!

However, I do see where this is going and I get it. I don't know, in a perfect world, we wouldn't need validation or need to please men to get our rocks off. But it happens, and I think it's part of the fragility of sexuality and the human condition.

ForeverBlueGirl

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @J.D.Regent: It has to do with ideas of ownership and possession. If a women is objectified, she is literally an "object" (that is, has no more substance or value than her physical appearance), and she is less than human. She can be bought, sold, and owned. Her body is for public consumption. What's more, you are ENTITLED to her.

That's the trouble I have with objectification: it reduces women to their physical appearance, which denies them the possibility of being substantial, complete human beings. My attractiveness emminates both from my physical appearance, which I put effort into, and what I project, which is confidence, because I know I am a person of substance who is worth knowing and liking.

exelizabeth

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> I'm just north of 30 now, and I can't even pretend to understand just how exactly it went wrong, but as someone else posted here, I'm glad I was teenager in the 90s as opposed to now. At 15, I worshipped Tori Amos and was in awe of what an intelligent, beautiful, articulate, talented, eccentric badass she was. I also loved Sarah MacLachlan and Garbage and Bjork. When Britney came on the scene, I said "seriously? this shit is catching on, seriously?" And it was all downhill from there. Nowadays, there are plenty of cool female singer-songwriters, but they just operate slightly or fully under the radar. I love Feist, Metric, and Neko Case, just to name a few. But yeah, to the masses they may as well not exist since all they can concentrate on consists of bleached hair, big tits, tacky clothes, and limited vocabulary and talent.

I know this is an off-shoot topic of what Jessica's writing about, but music is almost always the forum to which I translate it.

cautionarywhale

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @J.D.Regent: God, I want to shank that motherfucker. He's really scary.

TruculentandUnreliable

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @frozenblueberries: Yeah, wasn't it awesome, not doing that? I hate to think what my mental state would have been if I'd gone through the hell that was middle school in the aughts rather than '93-'95.

sarrible

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> I blame Maxim. I just know that fucking magazine is to blame somehow. And there is nothing more depressing then when I see young women with their fake boobs, ironed hair and fake tan reading it. At least some of those girls when I was coming up were buying bikini kill albums and reading the second sex. Le sigh, straight men in their 20s have, as a rule, questionable taste in women why cater to that rather than be faithful to yourself? To quote Jeaneane Garafalo "I know as women sometimes we are our own worst enemy but I still blame men"

Alohamaid

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @BeAgrestic:

"I think the internet has played a huge role in how over sexualized teens today are"

I agree. The rise of the internet has given everyone the ability to be "famous." GGW, reality tv, etc., has done nothing if not fan the flames. And whether by supply or demand, there are radically different cultural models to follow today than 15 years ago. We had Madonna and L7...and, over the past eight or so years, they've been replaced by Heidi Montag (or insert another reality-tv "star") and Britney.

Mego

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @nolooking: yeah this makes sense to me.

J.D.Regent

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> I was listening to L7 this morning on the train ride to work. I am so badass. P.S. Sometimes get this overwhelming feeling like woman who could would but woman who can't (for body image reason's anyways) are against the whole naked zine thing. I can't say I would...but then again, I can't. I hate being a slave to the scale. le sigh. Time for a little "moonshine", the song not the booze...yet.

LeggoMyEggo

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> to be like, 'when did girls trade guitars in the garage for a pole in the basement?', is a deceptive simplification. riot grrrl was a subculture, one that received a lot of media attention, but its audience and participants remained marginal - as, you know, actual radical feminism will. it's not like 'call the doctor' ever topped the charts or bikini kill ever became an mtv sensation. of course it got a blockbuster second life as a marketing technique, but it's important to distinguish between the movement and its commercial aftermath, which after the fifteen year lapse have acquired a tendency to bleed into one another in a lot of people's memories.

i would put wurtzel squarely in that aftermath. 'do-me feminism' and her baby sister girl power had a lot more in common with the present pornographic mandates for female identity and self-presentation than with riot grrrl. was 'prozac nation' transgressive? was the book not about a intelligent woman gotten the better of by her unstable psyche? was it not a story of hysteria? was its popularity not fed by the appetite for images of smart, successful women felled by the tragic flaw of being a woman? did she not objectify herself to sell books? in the end, did she not argue for the value of psychopharmacology, which along with pornography, constitute the twin pillars of american culture in the past decade? we're seeing mini-backlashes against both of these things now, which is awesome, but i really don't think elizabeth wurtzel gets to complain too much, since she helped create this monster.

also, it hurts me to hear kate roiphe lumped together with susan faludi.

nolooking

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @rednrowdy: I can see your point about the little talent she had for singing and paving the way for that kind of thing. But then how many men throughout the ages couldn't sing and got quite far? Due to the fact that she is intelligent (and ruthless) and everything with her is premeditated she is in such a different league then the britney's and the GGW girls.

@brendastarlet: and the sex book was at least on her own terms. She was the dominate force in those photos. She had a backlash because its difficult for america to see a woman who is so comfortable in her sexuality. And she knew she was going to cause a stir. It was calculated and thought out. Not drunk girls getting cajoled into showing their breasts.

elusya

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @I, SBJ, A Fucking Dyke: How old is your daughter? Because the quicker the next generation of Jezebelles grows up, the sooner we can take the culture back from Joe Francis. I hope.

LBB

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @BeAgrestic: Oooohh. Veronica. How I miss thee.

beckbee

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> It confuses the hell outta me too! When I was a senior in H.S., I was so happy that our 70's revival fashions weren't as risque as the originals. I saw old pics of my mom teaching high school in a skirt that barely covered her ass! My high school and college years were spent looking for just the right plaid button down to wear with my ill fitting overall shorts, red and white striped tights and Doc Martens. Flash forward to today, when leggings pass as pants, and Kim Kardashian is famous...for what??
Whatever the reason, I don't like it.

kityglitr

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> Wow. I was going along just fine just kind of being who I am, but now I see that the fact that I am raising a little riot grrl is exponentially more badass than I've realized, like, ever. Bless my petite's heart for owning a balance between what I've taught her and what she is finding for herself, on her own.

Thank fucking GOD I raised her the way I have thus far, because this Spears/Kardashian/GGW shit will NEVER be her "norm"; she expresses a knee-jerk revulsion towards anything remotely like it and embraces its polar opposite.

So far, anyway.

I second the recommendation from Safi re: Girls Rock! [www.girlsrockmovie.com]

buggeroff

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> Meh. Wurtzel blows goats.

Maybe women coming of age in the 1990's and beyond figured out that wealth and fame could be had a lot easier than endless dance classes, singing instruction, or cultivation of any skill or talent by simply following the hootchie formula? Relatively small investment (tan, bod, hair and makeup, waxing) for big payoff.

TroubleonWheels

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @ineffable.me: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
I am often torn between my rage toward joe mcdoucheface, and the girls ridiculous enough to be duped into selling themselves for a fucking t-shirt. Which is worse- that there is someone who preys on girls' desire to be "seen/famous" or the ones SO desperately craving that attention/fame that they will do anything to achieve it? I just can't figure it out. Do some porn. Get paid in something other than preshrunk cotton poly blends.


beckbee

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @Molly Crabapple: I'm more down with praising smart culture and smart chicks to the high heavens, rewarding them with our press and our dollars. But if some chicks are dumb and getting unfortunate lip collagen? Who cares?"

But what about when the "smart girls" who still want to be seen as sexually desirable have to do it on 'stupid terms', not those that allow them some self-respect and choice in the matter? It might become a dynamic of "show us your boobs!" or "no sexual intimacy/pleasure for you"

marie123

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @ineffable.me: I don't think it's "feminism," I think it's the immensely freeing promise of a life where I don't have to expend so much energy, mental or otherwise, on something that doesn't/shouldn't matter as much as it does. It sounds lovely to me. I wish I could get there.

Dashrashi

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> My BF and I have discussed this and our theory is that no one has any more shame, the thing that makes you pause and think should you do something before one actually does it. I'm not sure where it was lost, but somewhere along the way the gene went missing.

TXcatwoman

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @Artful Slinger: . I am not kidding, but these girls spoke like they were ten years old."

Isn't it the creepiest most depressing bullshit? And show some of those girls in the commercials too (can't just keep those goodies for the tapes themselves!!)

Despair at the thought that that shit is ever considered to be a good thing--insecure girls who are NOT having fun being pressured by the gravelly-voiced panting asshole behind the camera....making millions.

God damn.

marie123

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @brendastarlet: totally.

ineffable.me

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @leMaldeTete: Yeah. Sometimes that makes so much sense to me. But then I think about labor being commodified, and people's strength or dexterity or dancing skills, and I wonder how that is different from one's sexual attractiveness being commodified or objectified. Maybe because the body is more like an object, or is made to be? So it's about form instead of function?

J.D.Regent

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @sarrible: I, uh, totally didn't do that either.

frozenblueberries

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @misssgolightly: I hate the word "skanky". Or any variation thereof. It's such a woman-hating-woman term. Read the book "Slut" and you'll see what I mean.

katastic

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @unicornplanet:

i thought the same thing.

msAnthrope

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @rednrowdy: actually, my recollection is that when she actually did her Sex book, that it backfired on her. People wanted her to push the envelope, but not rip it open and dump everything out. She had to stage a "comeback" to get past the negative vibes, and I believe that's around the time she did Ray of Light and Evita.

brendastarlet

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @J.D.Regent: The thing that stands out most to me about your questions/confusion, is that you've lumped women's bodies into the "anything commodified" category. Anything. To think of any human body as a thing from a moral perspective is incredibly dangerous. Non-commodification of human bodies isn't anti-capitalist, it's anti-slavery. Dig?

leMaldeTete

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @Dashrashi: that's impossible. letting pressure from society get to you is a real bummer, but so is letting pressure from "feminism" get to you.

ineffable.me

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @done_and_done: Totally. Although I haven't finished grad school.

I just wish my appearance could be something I did not think about. And I wish the same for boys, too.

Dashrashi

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @Artful Slinger: i cant even watch shit like that. I was at a disco (do they still call them that?) a couple of years ago and they had a hot girl contest or whatever. one of the girls got on stage and pretty much got naked. i was a sliiightly wasted and i freaked out so much that i started crying and throwing things at her. Ok, so throwing things at her wasn't probably the most kosher thing to do, but i dont care for these kinds of women (its true i dont, im not going to pretend) and i was wasted and didnt know how else to handle my anger.

ineffable.me

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> Bratmobile Bikini Kill Huggy Bear Sleater Kinney; it's like they never existed. Now we've got the fucking pussycat dolls and "punk" burlesque. Those grrls got sucked down the same black hole as all the other ridiculously awesome stuff from the mid/early 90's.

MattapanTrolley

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> Fuck all that noise, I'm still a GD riot grrl. Fuck men, too! WE RECRUIT! WE RECRUIT! (Now that I've got that off my chest, I'll go back and read all 200 comments. Kthxbai.)

buggeroff

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @jewess: Good god, I love the Girls.

Speaking of, maybe every generation has their version of the "slut"... ours just happen to have their every naked move caught on camera and sold during infomercials.

stefzizzle

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @elusya: i give madonna a slight pass because she was a grown up when the whole thing exploded - it wasn't what she was intending, but she rode the wave anyway. my issue with her is that, no matter what her talent, her success signalled that a woman's success in the music industry (at least in front of the camera) was solely about looks and actual singing talent be damned. madonna admittedly wasn't that much of a singer, even by her own standards.

rednrowdy

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @J.D.Regent: which is even worse, of you ask me.

ineffable.me

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> I would argue that it's because of MTV, which about maps with the proliferation of this sort of thing in the 80s. Anyone remember that chick in the gauzy dress on top of the car in Whitesnake's "Here I Go Again?"

warmaiden

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> I don't like GGW any more than the next girl (getting naked for free is for suckers!) and blond bimbos are bad aesthetics, but I don't see what girls being dumb and slutty has to do with a failure of feminism. Most people aren't geniuses. Feminism is about equal rights and opportunities, not making sure every idiot of the female persuasion takes advantage of them.

I'm more down with praising smart culture and smart chicks to the high heavens, rewarding them with our press and our dollars. But if some chicks are dumb and getting unfortunate lip collagen? Who cares?

Molly Crabapple

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @Jenloveshercurves: WORD. FCP refocused the shit out of my worldview. Why isn't it more widely talked about?

bisitun

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @ineffable.me: I get the feeling they're all exactly like those two girls who were "discriminated" against on the airplane for being "too attactive".

stefzizzle

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @Devonna: Even those pop artists were wearing CLOTHES in their videos. Remember the military-inspired stuff in Janet Jacksons Rhythm Nation videos? Talented dancer and "pop" singer but at least she wore clothes when she danced. I think THAT's the difference.

jennilyn

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @ineffable.me: I watched about 10 minutes of it in college a few years back when my dude friends put it on and i stopped by to pick up something. I am not kidding, but these girls spoke like they were ten years old. After repeated requests to this girl, drunk, standing by a vending machine by herself to "pull down her skirt" after she had shown her tits, she kept saying "i'm not showing you my front". I almost puked on the scene. No joke it felt very similar to a scene from "The Accussed". I don't think all the videos are like that, but I just can't find the "sexy" in it. Tara Patrick I get. GGW - not so much.

ArtfulSlinger

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @tellmeagain:
i'm glad you said that, because while i think it's cute when my boyfriend is checking me out and says i have a nice ass, i get ticked at the random guys on the street who harass me even when i'm wearing like, jeans and a t-shirt. just the other day i was walking to my apartment and some construction workers were doing work on the building next door, and one of them actually followed me to my door trying to talk to me...GO AWAY. good to know that other people recognize a distinction between allowing someone like a bf/husband to look down your shirt and flashing cameras/strangers for attention, because i was worried i was contradicting myself.

onestrawplz

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> I would like to hear from SM on this.

unicornplanet

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @ineffable.me: Yeah, what a joke. As shananagins just brought up --"Plus, I always go back to that Kim Kardashian quote: "Everyone makes a sex tape when they're young". If that's what girls are growing up thinking then I don't know where we're all headed."

My eye won't stop twitching now.

YouCan'tDealWithMyInfiniteNature

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @whynotshesaid: Word. Grunge was the greatest gift to girls going through puberty in the early '90s; thank Christ for the good people of Seattle who made it okay to wear flannel shirts and baggy jeans and not wash your hair throughout the 7th grade. Not that, uh, I did that.

sarrible

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @ineffable.me: it's funny, they actually seemed to understand my critique. they just don't give a shit. i had a long talk with some of them just last year about organized sex labor. i'm pretty sure i was tripping my balls off at the time but i like to think i changed a few minds.

J.D.Regent

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @brendastarlet: Dude, you really cant compare Hugh Hefner with Joe McDoucheface.

ineffable.me

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @stefzizzle: Or maybe they just don't care, because it seems to me like a majority of people in modern society care about only that which affects them and their immediate circle and don't know [or worse, know and don't CARE] about a larger picture.

LBB

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @YouCan'tDealWithMyInfiniteNature: I do, too. I wish he didn't exist. But unfortunately, he does and he finds plenty of takers. He's the Hugh Hefner of our age, only Hugh had a lot more style in his day.

brendastarlet

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> and BTW I plan to still go topless hen I'm old and wrinkled - it just feeeeeels good!

doggotmyshoes

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @done_and_done: Do not apologize! There is nothing wrong with wanting to look your best and to be loved, as well as wanting to live a good life. Your goals sound like a healthy balance.

brendastarlet

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @jewess: I mean there are girls who are more comfortable dressing in halter tops and cut off shorts/skirts whatevers and this what the choose ti wear. They do it because they want to. They might receive reactions to it, but its not necessarily the primary motivation. There are girls who then dress like this because they believe this is the only way they will attract men and attention. I find, in my short time on this earth, most girls who dress "sexy" are doing it for attention and not because this is the way they express themselves.

ArtfulSlinger

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> I have 2 little girls and was horrified at the thought they would grow up thinking this is normal behavior in college or anywhere! Thanks Kristen for pointing out the obvious! I go topless on the beach and I want my daughters to grow up being proud of their bodies and sexually aware and confident, not confusing acquiesing to any man's wish/cum dream as sexual power. That is just plain out bull....gotta go get them from school now...ciao!

doggotmyshoes

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @done_and_done: I don't think you should hate that part of yourself, I think we all have it and it is normal. When it becomes a problem (in my opinion) is when you base ALL of your self-esteem and worth on your appearance, and think that it's the be all and end all of worth.

Maybe if you were a little easier on yourself in that regard, you would find that it doesn't bother you at all, it kind of works like that I've learned.

YouCan'tDealWithMyInfiniteNature

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @pandorasmittens: I hear stories from my 18 year old sister about what the girls are like at her high school (she's nothing like them thankfully)...and it's scary to think that they're about to be set loose out on the world and will make way too many babies and raise them to be complete morons.

I think they have us outnumbered.

stefzizzle

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @msAnthrope: You're right. Still though, anything is better than this.

NotAPrettyGirl

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @jewess: I'm sure some of the people that I feel bad about and for when I see them [doing what I see as] objectifying themselves for the male gaze are lovely people who don't feel that they're doing that.
It's my position, though, that a good chunk of them, at least, are not accurately assessing all the levels of what's going on there. The human brain has an inordinate amount of ability to fool itself--lots of psych studies telling us this.
So of course it's possible that Shauvon on the Real World (and our culture reflects and creates our culture; it's not irrelevant to the discussion) really is empowered, but I'm going to submit that the evidence tells me that she's insecure, but she dresses it up as confidence and "owning her sexuality." And that she probably believes it, but that her mistaken belief doesn't mean she's actually secure. It's just another layer of defense.
I'm sure this sounds condescending and old-farty, but I know from personal experience how easy and common it is to be deeply insecure, and then try to get myself good and objectified, and call it self-esteem and girl power. I realize now that I was lying to myself, and I think a lot of other girls do too. Maybe some don't. Super. But I'd put lots of money on the bet that a lot do.

Dashrashi

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> You guys, I have to admit, I don't totally understand/buy the idea of "objectification." Except if you think, for example, that commodifying anything cheapens it, in which case you would be like a radical anti-capitalist, right? but it seems like it only gets employed to describe treatment of women's bodies. I don't know, I get confused about it.

J.D.Regent

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> I don't think there's any one factor. I'm recently out of college and most of my female friends are strong and independent (we all struggle with guy issues) but I agree that RW is a reflection because originally it was about getting different interests and backgrounds in a house and seeing how they interacted. Now it's about hooking up. There has been a steady decline though.

Plus, I always go back to that Kim Kardashian quote: "Everyone makes a sex tape when they're young". If that's what girls are growing up thinking then I don't know where we're all headed.

shananigans

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @YouCan'tDealWithMyInfiniteNature: Let's not even TALK about those goddamned Kardashians.

ineffable.me

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @BadenBaden: Very true. Too much coddling.

Lady Skittlehattington

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @BicSharpie: Yo, leave junk food out of this. It never did nothing but be delicious.

ineffable.me

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @ineffable.me: Yeah, and when I see female celebrities like the Kardashians supporting him, I'm like, WTF?!?!? How can a female back this guy? To me, he's is so anti-female it's ridiculous.

YouCan'tDealWithMyInfiniteNature

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @SarahMC: I'll say! I have a 15 year old daughter!

Usedtobealice

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> I'm going to blame rap music and junk food.

BicSharpie

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @J.D.Regent: AWESOME. I know that if I ever see that guy in person the least I would do is spit on him. I wouldn't even care for a damn criminam record. haha.

ineffable.me

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @pandorasmittens: It is so brilliant, isn't it?

hortense

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @doggotmyshoes: actually, that's the most objectionable part of GGW -- the girls don't even get paid!!! fuck that!

J.D.Regent

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @AthertonMerriweather: oh man, i have had some SERIOUS drunken fights with GGW staff, including Francis himself in New Orleans ye many years ago. The closest I ever came to an assault charge.

J.D.Regent

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @done_and_done: There isn't anything wrong with wanting to be attractive and desirable! You shouldn't have to forsake your feelings against yourself because it's not feminist or whatever crap. There's a problem if you want to have shitton of plastic surgery to look like X or Y celebrity so guys will like you. If you want to wear makeup it doesn't make you anti-feminist. You are choosing what you want to do with yourself. You should embrace that.

ineffable.me

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> Maybe its just that the Girls Gone Wild-esque generation of women are just idiots and are focused on more by the media because they're entertaining. I'm pretty confident that these types of women have always been around, albeit in a different/less nakie capacity. IMO these gals typically just aren't the sharpest tack in the box and lack a mind of their own so they just follow suit and do what they think they should be doing because they're women! With boobs! And vaginas! Show them off!

As the media gives more attention to this type of women, the more the non-thinkers are going to assume that's the way they should be acting so they do. Ever go to a party where EVERY girl looks the same? All generic over-product-using bimbos? Yeah... pretty much like every party I've ever been to also.

OhhYeah

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @stefzizzle: That's like a shitty version of Blanche Elizabeth Devereaux's quote: "I don't want to be treated equal... I want to be treated BETTER!"

jewess

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> And the thing that bothers me is that we are left comparing ourselves to hookers! Our sexuality is ours to manifest as we see fit. However, anyone who is taking it off for the camera is probably getting money....not in the same category as women in this discussion.

doggotmyshoes

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @misssgolightly: I don't care how much of a "slut" someone is, no one should ever call a woman a cum dumpster. That makes me so sad and angry to think about that being printed in a college newspaper.

YouCan'tDealWithMyInfiniteNature

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @ineffable.me: EXACTLY.

J.D.Regent

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]> @NotAPrettyGirl:

on the flip side, it means that if somebody figures out a way to take that riot grrrl philosophy | look | attitude and make it the "new" role model for women, the sheeple genetic structure would then embrace this. nothing lasts forever.

msAnthrope

]]> <![CDATA[How Did We Go From Riot Grrrls To Girls Gone Wild?]]>