You take care too, and try to learn to respect other points of view. Cheers!

DJCarbon43

B_boy

BeachLover420

If anything I pity your emotionally driven arguments. It really is a shame that you can't respond logically to simple points.

You mentioned that you "have oodles of evidence", and I'm simply looking for it. This has nothing to do with your family. If you'd like to use them as an example in a point you make, by all means, go ahead. But you haven't revealed your "oodles of evidence" yet. I'm really on pins and needles....

Being so judgmental must be taxing.
Yep...I think I'll take a nap now.

It must be so amazing to float through life, not making any distinctions (judgments) between anything....and to boot, it is less tiring I hear... ;)

Ad Astra Per Aspera

DJCarbon43

First off, my screen name. I live steps from the ocean and the number 420 is the birthday of my beloved neice.
As for the details on my family, well they are MY family, so I know of what I speak!!

BeachLover420

First off, my screen name. I live steps from the ocean and the number 420 is the birthday of my beloved neice.
As for the details on my family, well they are MY family, so I know of what I speak!!

In regards to the rest of your entirely inaccurate insinuations, they deserve no further response.

I hope you have a better day. Being so judgmental must be taxing.

BeachLover420

Whoa....you mean....like...their parent's worked hard or something? Crazy....

Hysterical hogwash my dear.

And I have oodles of evidence. I am the eldest of 9 children and I could prove my point just with the experiences of my 6 brothers.

Really? Where is it? So far the only thing you've managed to observe is the fact that those who are entrepreneurial will be the most successful. On that, I couldn't agree with you more.

Spoken to any blue collar workers lately? Or even white collar support staff?

I am one kiddo. My father teaches in the public school system (inner city), and my mother is a nurse. Before my current job, I was working for a general contractor.

And your description of me as a pot head....Not only wrong, but a bit rude, no?

Nope, not at all. With a name like BeachLover420 it's hard to not read "pot head".

********************************************************************************

See, the difference between us is that you want to open your mouth to the sky like a baby bird, complaining about the success of those around you who've worked hard to achieve it, and harking on "the injustice of it all"... Me, I'm going to achieve it.

Semper Ubi, Sub Ubi

DJCarbon43

BeachLover420

While that may have been true in the past history of the states, I could not disagree more. Yes, there are the Warren Buffett's, but then again there are the Donald Trumps.

And I have oodles of evidence. I am the eldest of 9 children and I could prove my point just with the experiences of my 6 brothers.

Spoken to any blue collar workers lately? Or even white collar support staff? Those who reap the most benefits, mainly come from privledged backgrounds, had beneficial connections from their university or community. Or cashed in by have made a public spectual of themselve's (umm....Paris Hilton, Spitzer's call girl.

BeachLover420

the real value of Bear Stearns is likely closer to the $30 billion "non-recourse" loan given by the fed to JPM in order to make this deal work. Obviously that number has a minus sign, but this is still a gambit. The financial system is as corrupt as the political circumstance. A deregulated financial system emboldened by the ever lovin Greenspan put managed to invent new securities and options which levered banks and brokerages far further than had been previously possible. Hot money from ZIRP Japan and Greenspan's 1% FFR post tech bubble drove the demand for yield, free money will do that.
(It erodes "risk premia" because it is hot money in the hands of financiers competing for yield, not people making stuff, people getting paid to borrow money and invest it. The market for all sorts of junk debt was roaring through til '06, Foriegn Central Banks loved our housing agency paper, and of course if China and Japan buy our loan paper, and we take a fee, then we will loan more money to someone who will then buy a house and take out a heloc and go to Wal-Mart and keep p that "american Consumer" gig. Our Nation has been happy being a consumer, but it is unlikely that this mode will continue unaltered. Perhaps Americans will come up with some other words like "workers" or "Citizens" Now you say that lower rate=investment=productivity=economic growth (and the comment about employment near "frictional levels" implies that you believe government employment numbers. If you also believe the jobs numbers and the inflation numbers, and have common sense skepticism regarding any theory accusing the government of hedonically adjusting and re-weighting price information in order to diminish the payments due social security recipients, then you can believe that this makes sense. It is not hard to see the joint responsibility of the bankers and the politicians, nor is it hard to find their reward. This is the humor of a financialized economy, the only ones working hard are producing indecipherable instruments to extend a confidence game. No one else is producing anything of value, and this is why "economic growth" does not happen. The federal reserve is not increasing productivity, blowing bubbles=malinvestment=destroyed productivity. In any case, it appears that the entire financial system is bankrupt. Been predicted for years. And of course Ben plays along.

bbordi

Better luck next time pot head.

This is capitalism, I don't know what's so hard to understand... Those (people and families) who fight the hardest for what they want, and work the hardest, reap the most benefits. Simple. Really.

Qui Audet Adipiscatur

DJCarbon43

BeachLover420

If 100 or so of Wall Street's biggest earners bailed the company out, the Federal action would be unnecessary. Pipe dream I know, but that $20 billion would be far more useful in rebuilding New Orleans, Food Safety or financing our aging infrastructure, etc. Oh yeah and our less fortunate citizens and the organizations that serve them would be delighted to have a smidgen of that money.

TRUE STORY..........Last Christmas I asked my 30 year old Brother in Law about his new position at a Hedge Fund. Puffing out his chest, he went on and on about that it does not matter that only the 1% controls the wealth of the country. I replied "But what about the "greater good of society"? His reply....."The greater good? The only thing that matters in this country are the markets." I then asked how this jibbed with his deeply Catholic beliefs. He had no answer.

The following month he received his Hedge Fund Salary and Bonus.................$100 fucking million dollars!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

His hard working Sister in Law is to this day, absolutely dumbfounded.

BeachLover420

nobodygrrl

DJCarbon43

DJCarbon43

In the bigger picture -- this is a good time for us to remember, policy-wise, that there is nothing wrong with renting. Our national obsession with homeownership and policies designed to push up the rates no matter how unprepared the buyer...those are part of why so many people got loans they were not ready for.

MissNadine

missbheave (is not convinced)

How does this happen in this wonderful 'you dont understand finance economy'? Its simple really. When you cut jobs and lose productivity trying to give some stockholder a 20 cent dividend you hurt the company in the long run. When you pillage all of the knowledge assets of a company by laying off 'in-place' workers to outsourced areas like mexico and india you hurt the company. When a CEO gets paid an insane amount of money while the company swirls the toilet well.... Yep company gets hurt.

That is just the beginning of the real finance cycle. Then you lie and say "HEY go get training and learn a service or tech trade! you cant go wrong!" Then when those jobs get outsourced the consumer not only has no job but also student loans from the 'new training'.. We get a bonus effect that the dumbass CEOs cant seem to get through their heads (along with politicians): IF WE DONT HAVE MONEY WE DONT BUY GOODS AND SERVICES! So when you kill us with high gas prices and low paying jobs dont be surprised when you cant balance your company as no one buys your crap.

I see this summer being very hard on tourist locations, theme parks and other things. I know we cut back last year and we were not hurting that bad but this year we have no resources for that at all.

V

vdragonmpc

My dad managed a relatively large mutual fund starting in 1979, and he ALWAYS disliked Greenspan with a passion that seemed odd at the time. With the housing bubble and encouraging way too many people to take out ARMs, I can begin to see why he thought the man was an idiot.

themidget

sadieloser

Merci beaucoup.

palmbeachmaven

Moe

Moe

Let it all burn, I say.

quoderat

JillyLava

I have to say that, while I have a generally derisive opinion of Reagan's economic policies, Wall Street's recent behavior makes me wish the modern Fed would take a page from that crazy old man's book (and I don't mean the one where he calls his wife "Mommy").

In all seriousness, what exactly is the point of floating these motherfuckers every time they screw themselves? "Oh, no, Mr. Government, I'm a big boy now, I can handle my own mone- Crap! Crap! Government man, I need some cash, bad!" Really? How about- no?

How about... If your going to go crying to the Fed every time you dig yourself a new goddamn hole, you have to stop whining when the Fed decides to tell you how to do the jobs you're all so obviously unfit for? How about... The Fed actually leverages some of its not inconsiderable power in the interests of the average citizens? Regulate the shit out of these bitches, someone, please. Screw them to the fucking wall and laugh, someone, please.

As an aside: let's not blame Ayn for this. She was kind of cool. Slightly mad? Maybe. Rather extreme? Sure. But still cool. (Okay, Anthem was the shittiest book ever, but The Fountainhead had its moments.) Also, I think those Paul Smith shirts are (dare I say it?) sexy. That whole "trousers, blazer, button-down shirt without a tie, leave the top two buttons undone" look... I like it.... Maybe a little too much.

SavoryDee

TriedandTrue

zibby

And my new rapper name is Illiquid.

princepumpkinbeepster

jeweltones

mepo

Spazalicious

Unixronin

The Emperor has no clothes, and has been standing naked in the middle of the bourse for decades with his saggy, droopy, wrinkled ass hanging out.

You know what?  Maybe it's time to LET THE SKY FALL.  Let reality set in.  Let Fourth Avenue rain yesterday's millionaires again. Then maybe the ones left will remember that real money has a price, as well as a (rapidly diminishing) value.  And maybe we'll be able to get back to an economy based on something more substantial than "Suppose I had a hundred billion dollars.  I don't, but just suppose I did."

Unixronin

The problem with oil and other commodity futures rising is not directly linked to the interest rate going up or down. When financial markets are in trouble, investors tend to move their money into "safer" markets. There will always be a growing demand for oil, wheat, corn, gold, nickel etc... so the investor knows that his money will be safe there, spare complete and utter global anarchy. So, when more and more investors feel that their money is safer in commodities, there is an artificially increased demand, which in turn raises prices.

There was an article in the WSJ recently explaining that the true supply and demand factors, EXCLUDING speculation and futures puts oil in the 60-70$ per barrel range.

And a higher relative cost of living will mean a decrease in the amount of money one can stash away. But I think that if you're an American and you have savings, you're 103% ahead of the game. In 2007 Americans spent a grand total of 103% of their income... how that makes sense, I don't know.

engelfluglen

CathyG

krismry

The reason lower interest rates are a good thing, is that lower rates usually encourage lenders to loan more money (in theory), and spurs more investment by business and individuals (using said loans). The problem right now is that banks are using those lower rates to refinance, and engage in other forms of self protection, because of their fear of being the next to get hit by the fallout from the subprime crisis.

Under normal economic circumstances they would be more willing to loan money, which is good for the economy.

What is happening with the banks is the same thing that the fed is worried individuals will do when they get their 600 checks from the IRS. The fed wants us to spend the money, because it serves to boost the economy...and again, under normal economic circumstances 96 percent of credit/rebate checks get spent, which is good. What would be bad (strangely...its complicated) is if we stashed the money under our pillows. We need to go out and spend the money, or put it into the stock market, or some other form of investiture.

To answer your last question:

Doesn't a higher cost of living translate to an effective decrease in 401(k)s and other savings?

Yes, and many factors play into this. One of the biggest is the CPI (Consumer Price Index)I[en.wikipedia.org] If the CPI rises, that is a sign of inflation, which lowers the value of the dollar (you can't buy as much), and thus cuts into the "real" growth of your 401ks and other investments.

Not to be rude, and I apologize in advance to those here who know what you are talking about, but having read most of the comments...a lot of the commenters seem to have a very poor understanding of how the markets work.

Seeing everyone here hate on the system that has allowed them to lead the luxurious (comparatively) lifestyles that they enjoy, reeks of hypocrisy, and smacks of ignorance.

disclaimer: The commenter is the grand-nephew of a JPMorgan president, has assets totalling less than $50,000, makes less than $20,000 annually, has no health insurance, attends Community College, and has no positions in any publicly held companies.

DJCarbon43

Why? Are.you.scared?

amygdala1

Thorkel

Political Party Girl

Exactly - Ayn Rand would say that the market solves the problems and should be left alone.

So, when a group of Rand and Smith quoting greedy types receive a government bailout instead of, you know, letting the market correct, I call bullshit. So does Moe.

h_bee

Reagan was senile when appointed Greenspan (who knew something about debt), did you really think we could be that lucky twice?

alulim

IBinMN

1) People's houses were way over-valued. If that were not the case, the amount of outstanding debt wouldn't be so high and places like Bear-Stearns wouldn't be so exposed

2) Everyone was sold on the idea that they could live their dreams by taking the equity out of their house. Combine with 1) and you see the problem.

3) The adjustable rate mortgage was poison. It could get you into a house you probably couldn't afford up front, but you'd pay for it on the back end.

4) No doc mortgages - banks didn't ask too many questions about your worthiness, basing most of their decisions on one credit score.

And so now, the over-inflated prices are deflating rapidly and it's a buyer's market. But, if you're a buyer, you're finding it harder to get a mortgage, as suddenly banks want blood, DNA samples, and you history since birth, along with a 700+ credit score, before you can get a mortgage. The upshot: houses are now more affordable but no one can buy them.

NefariousNewt

celibacyanyone

freedc

also, this
[www.nytimes.com]

disti1led

disti1led

a lot of people just lost their jobs; a lot more saw their bonuses shrink to virtually zero - i know it's tough to be sympathetic b/c they make more than you, but it's not just the people responsible for the shitty trading decisions on the CMO desk, it's everyone at the company.

you want to rant about a terrible economic decision? rant about the absurdity of the $600 checks that're supposed to help the poor suffering asshole who never should've been allowed to take out a mortgage to begin with. Were they all victims of unscrupulous lenders? Fuck no. NY Mag just did some interviews with a few of these poor folks...one was a guy who can't pay his mortgage b/c his kids need to go to college - they're juniors in high school now. When'd he take out the mortgage? 2 years ago. Why wasn't he concerned about these college payments then? B/c he figured he'd flip his house. People weren't forced to take out these loans.

-a jezebel who works in finance....and does not wear Paul Smith shirts or own any sort of real estate whatsoever. (because she realizes she can't afford a NYC mortgage.)

disti1led

[www.nytimes.com]

marin79

swami ji

Publican

swami ji

mikeymatrix

buggeroff

brendastarlet

pal003

spamtasticus

A mortgage is a contact between you and a lender: under the rule of law, you honor contracts or you make a good faith effort to renegotiate. I am all for extending grace periods, and certainly for helping people re-finance whose personal situations have deteriorated. But that's different than freezing foreclosures all together. If you do that, why should any of us pay our bills?

brendastarlet

I think the tying of my personal political beliefs to my pay scale would spook me...afraid I'd turn into...well...fill in your favorite amoral political creature here.

cheerupsylvia (Can I Haz...Notice???)

cheerupsylvia (Can I Haz...Notice???)

jerseyjeff

marin79

LBB

CrazyLegsMeg

nyobserver

marin79

Political Party Girl

[docs.google.com]

cowgirlinthesand

And I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but all financial models I've seen on housing prices project rates declining for the next 2-3 years depending on where you actually live. Your area might be a lot more insulated though. Where all of my family lifes (NYC, DC, Boston), there are major declines projected! But once rates go down & banks are making mortgages again, it's a good time to buy. Although, too much of that happenings & we're right back to the same mess! :)

marin79

Yes_Tim_Gunn

LBB

I'd watch...but I really want "sinbad-gate" to blow up for comedic value...so take that FWIW.

Personally...although I don't know the details...I don't like Hillary's plan to freeze rates and foreclosures. That just sounds way too intrusive. I'm all for much more financial regulation than the status quo but freezes...whether rate, foreclosure, or price spook me.

cheerupsylvia (Can I Haz...Notice???)

marin79

marin79

tetragami

BlondeGrlz

LBB

@bohemian:
Yes, its great trying to bite the man, but Wall Street is not the be all or end all of the economy. You aren't proving a point by putting it towards "small businesses" and such. They want to provide incentives for American consumers to do what they do best, and start consuming more. And America does not exist in a vacuum.

crazy_minky

marin79

Personally I avoid political discussion in the workplace like the plague.

cheerupsylvia (Can I Haz...Notice???)

My dad & I got in a discussion about this a few nights ago. He things that b/c the home prices have fallen & some many people have mortgages that are for more than the worth of their homes that the banks should just rewrite the loans & take a hit. But if you do that for everyone, the banks would be taking writedowns like crazy & then we get into capital problems b/c they're required by the gov to have a certain %. I think that they should amend the loans (i.e. lower the rate & make it fixed) for the people who can actually afford their homes. But for the people who just will never be able to afford their homes, they probably should go into foreclosure. That will certainly force all home prices down more, but it's probably better to take the pain now & move forward on (relatively) more stable footing!

marin79

They won't get the quick bump they assumed would happen, actual people do get a bump and the money makes its way back up the food chain slowly. As those people you paid pay their bills it will eventually start to make its way to larger companies via utility bills, transit etc.

bohemian

cheerupsylvia (Can I Haz...Notice???)

Yes_Tim_Gunn

marin79

Oh man. Oh Alberta. I've lost many friends to the allure of high paying menial labour.

crazy_minky

MissNadine

@Political Party Girl: LOL - I do love DC too...

marin79

marin79

marin79

mockingbird

Political Party Girl

BluntObjects

palmbeachmaven

CrazyLegsMeg

@crazy_minky: I'm hoping that the cuts on educational spending in public universities will be less brutal in Canada--I'm stuck with the timing (see above) of applying for jobs this fall if I'm graduating on track, but hoping the strange insularity of my profession will at least cushion things a bit. Also it doesn't hurt that Alberta is one of the places we'd like to live. Thugh it hurts my brain I'd make more as a gas station attendant in Red Deer today than I do here as a grad student.

Yes_Tim_Gunn

KonichiwaBitches

cheerupsylvia (Can I Haz...Notice???)

marin79

(Kidding Moe - I totally adore you & love some of the truly though-provoking posts you go going on!)

marin79

80% of our exports are to the United States, and combine our strong dollar, and the weakened consumer demand in the U.S, well we're going to see a tremendous fall in our exports. Canada is going to get tight soon too. But at least we're running a budget surplus, amirite.

crazy_minky

marin79

As much as it could be argued that management took a deal that wasn't necessarily the best price they could get if they had just broken up the whole firm (not to mention, the fed didn't give them a choice), but they at least did right by the little guys who weren't responsible. If they'd declared bankrupcy on Sunday night, under the law, the building would have been locked (turning on the lights would have been illegal) & the employees wouldn't have every been able to enter it again - even to get their personal items! Would have been so wrong to have happened.

@Moe: And fuck no would I ever give money to Romney nor any other Repub! (Granted I gave to Hillary, so I still don't think you'd approve!) Regardless, it's often hard to reconcile what I believe with what I do. I'm liberal as hell and dealing with a lot of people who don't feel the same just sucks.

marin79

(Sorry if this makes no sense, but I'm writing this while I watch Beauty and the Geek.)

Political Party Girl

CrazyLegsMeg

Yes_Tim_Gunn

I totally get why it looks like the Fed just bailed out a group of rich Wall Streeters who make some serious mistakes. But the Fed wasn't there to save these guys as much as to mitigate the ramifications to everyone else.

marin79

SenatorBix

CrazyLegsMeg

Historically, when the fed has cut rates, that pushes money into the market b/c banks can borrow money at lower rates & use that cash to go out and make loans - which causes a boom in the mortgage back securities market b/c of the supply of loans to bundle into deals. But this time around, the banks are terrified of liquidy issues and none of these Wall Stret banks are willing to buy their loans (even the good ones). So unless they can sell the loan to an agency, they are being extremely selective about who they'll loan to b/c it'll sit on their balance sheet. So until the markets become more stable, I personally don't think the lower rates are going to matter a ton in the mortgage loaning business in the short-term.

marin79

Yawn.

crazy_minky

buying on margin is not a good idea. even my pot dealer knows that.

CrazyLegsMeg

faire-la-moue

I'm not saying we should have let them crash, possibly taking all of Wall St and the rest of the economy with them. But it's hard to get the pity up when they were denying there even being a problem just days before they needed the fed to significantly rewrite banking rules to save their asses. Besides, even the lowest paid, 401K-emptied, about to be laid off BS drone is better off financially than I am.

mockingbird

Political Party Girl

Magister

Moe

Can you please post an opinion you have that you find that almost no one agrees with you with...so maybe I can find some uncommon ground?

Thank You...

PS...see you in Baracktober!!!

cheerupsylvia (Can I Haz...Notice???)

marin79

marin79

cheerupsylvia (Can I Haz...Notice???)

Archetype

Moe

PeteyNice

I have to tell you though...it creeps me out agreeing with someone as much as I end up agreeing with Moe.

I feel like the teacher's pet. Yuck.

Let me ask you this Marin...you seem to have a pretty in depth knowledge of this mess micro and macro.

Did the people that made the gamble on this junk...the hedge funds...the trust funds...the individual investors...the speculators...did they pay the price?

Did the market go medieval on their asses...or did they just laugh it off and head out to their home in the Hamptons on my dime the way these fuckers usually do when they fuck up?

cheerupsylvia (Can I Haz...Notice???)

Archetype

Archetype

queensissy

But there are also a lot of good, little guys who are getting punished in this situation too. But it's a risky, cut-throat world to work in & on some level, they should understand the potential consequences. And if they don't like it, go work for the damn government!

marin79

AGreenEyeDevil

LBB

And yes, while nothing about this economy is simple, in this particular situation the consequences would have been dire if the Fed hasn't stepped in. That is pretty simple. The Fed did not have a choice in the matter, which is why they forced Bear to accept the JP bid. And for the record, letting Bear go bankrupt would have actually been better for the shareholders since the break-up value of the company is worth far more than $2/share (the building alone is worth $8/share). But flooding the market with every stock & bond Bear owned would have forced every bank, wall street firm, etc. to take huge writedowns, which would have caused mass panic and the demise of most of Wall Street. The tanking of every retirement plan in the US & even abroad completely fucks over the average investor out there, so it wasn't just Wall Street they were saving.

marin79

I'm also glad that some people have pointed toward the stimulative effect of rate cuts and the problems that started in '29, but I'm also going to add that the overwhelming majority of American are currently invested in the stock market. Though, most are invested through their 401K and with their retirement funds.

I'm all in favor of deeper regulation for Wall Street and I have a few ideas toward that end, but wishing for a worldwide recession and the possibility of bankrupting most people's nest eggs doesn't seem to be the wisest thing to do.

Magister

MissNadine

lermanzo