<![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers? - Jezebel Comments]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers? - Jezebel Comments]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> This may be off topic, but Wow those women look beautiful.

sailormoon

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> Enough about Eliot and his hookers!

constancescott1990

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @SarahMC: I'm sorry, are you really that stupid? Men don't become hookers because they have better job opportunities - you really think that is the reason??????

The actual reason that men don't become hookers is that nobody is willing to pay them. I would venture to guess even in the much smaller pool of male prostitutes the vast majority are selling homosexual sex.

Prostitution is actually an example of two great advantages that women have: They don't have to pay for sex, and they can sell it if they want.

no_slushbox

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> Should we be reporting collegecallgirl as a missing person? Or is she Kristen?

Mr. Paretohead

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @shuffler: Oops, meant to say: "If all women supported prostitution," not "if all women were prositution."

Catty Is Cumbersome

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @hushnowcharlotte: Dude, some of these "feminists" you despise so much are attacking the system because they find it exploitative and not fully beneficial to the prositutes. Why are you bitching aboout women who don't want to legalize prostitution? How about men like Spitzer who actually prosecuted these cases? Yea, if all women were prostitution the world would be a better place. No, keep dreaming there'd still be hypocritic men benefiting as pimps. It's a flawed system that as it stands is damaging to women.

Catty Is Cumbersome

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @bananaballs: I'm so glad you made this point. I am shocked by the (usually) 2nd wavers who will fight to the death for abortion rights, but continue to victimize and slutbash sex workers. I'm sorry guys, but it goes hand in hand. Either women have control over their bodies or they don't.
Just like abortion, some women make the decision for reasons that seem "wrong" but it's their goddamn decision to make, and we need to be creating a world where financial situations (I'm working to change the world, but I'd like to make $1000 an hour) and mental health issues (and sexual abuse) are not such driving forces in women's lives.
Also. If the Sex Workers Art Show is playing in your town- see it now.

apatheticmonkey

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> High class call girls don't represent the industry at large but what they do represent is the manner in which being a sex worker isn't necessarily essentially degrading when performed under conditions chosen by the workers themselves...
If ALL women in the sex industry were begging to get out of it we wouldn't have Scarlot Harlot and Margo St James...

judithvansteppes

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> The hardest part is pretending to like someone you find physically & mentally repugnant.
And then of course,letting him touch you.
(shudder)

missdelite

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @Algren: Argh. This is my second attempt to respond. I was definitely not referring to you, or anyone here. I was speaking generally. I agree with much of what you said. I also think it would be interesting to have a conversation about what our society values in that you could earn more spending a day and night with someone like Spitzer than you could earn in a year teaching his children. I also agree that it would be great if there were resources that helped women get out of the life. It is, as you alluded, very... hard.

BoredPhDiva

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @RainbowBrite: I kind of like the idea of doing both but I do hear what you're saying.

BoredPhDiva

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @Algren: I'm definitely not referring to you! I was speaking generally. I do understand what you're saying. I think another interesting conversation worth having is that (in some cases) you can earn more in one day on your back with a man at the Spitzer level than in a year to teach his children (in most cases). And I also agree that it would be great if there were more resources out there teaching women how to get out. Leaving the life is... hard.

BoredPhDiva

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> Prostitution is not inherently degrading. But it is still degrading, in the context of a society with ambivalent and hypocritical attitudes toward sexuality in general and female sexuality in particular. Most people talk as if getting paid for sex is the ultimate disgrace and equivalent to a lack of moral standards; witness metaphorical uses of the term "whore", e.g. in braak's comment above.

Most clients of prostitutes do think less of them as human beings for providing the very service they're buying. Even when say they respect the women they would almost certainly not support that career choice for their girlfriend or sister. And that IS degrading. At the same time there is certainly nothing holy or deeply personal about having sex per se that makes exchanging it for money degrading in and of itself. I think that idea is a harmful remnant of the kind of attitude that takes women's virginity to be their most precious (only) asset, and more generally defines them as sexual or "natural" as opposed to rational.

Also, what is up with all the insisting that "prostitution will always be with us"? Really? Good thing people haven't always automatically presumed that about slavery or other equally well established institutions.

Gavagai

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @brassinpocket: Well something clearly happened. But you've made a good point.

Algren

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @bananaballs: Amen, bananaballs! I have to agree with you on this one. Why shouldn't my pussy have inherent monetary value? The trick (pardon the pun) is for women to be simultaneously in control of their bodies AND the business they conduct with it. How do we, as a society, transform "upper management", ie: pimps? Because it looks to me that most pros, especially not the ones blowing jersey husbands and fathers for ten bucks a pop, aren't in control of much in their lives.

Humans are driven to fuck. It's a given. Until the religious right accepts this, there will always be hypocrisy in public policy and politics.

rowingrowingrowing

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @Algren:

Well, yes, the sexual revolution of the 60s, where the idea of sex as an even exchange between men and women flourished briefly before fading for lack of actual human beings successfully and happily embodying it.

brassinpocket

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @msAnthrope: did you think I was claiming it was demeaning? because I was/am not.

@shuffler: dude, I put "feminists" in quotes for a reason. A lot of the women who give sex workers a really hard time and lobby for laws that make their lives harder, are self-professed feminists. That's not a judgmental call on my part, that's just the situation. This is an issue, just like every other one, where feminists are not all of one mind. I'm a feminist, and I know a lot of other awesome women who are, but it doesn't charge the fact that women who deny that sex workers have any agency at all are often considered by themselves and their peers to be feminists.

hushnowcharlotte

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> While I'm not going to weigh in on the pros/cons of prostitution - I thought the best part on the Today show this morning was when the high-priced prostitute made a statement basically saying that if Mrs. Spitzer had spent more time working on her marriage/relationship, this would have never happened. I thought Anne's head was going to spin around. She was not happy!

MsScarlet

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @brassinpocket: Clearly you have not read enough about the sexual revolution of the 1960s.

Algren

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @SarahMC:

"Funny that the men who complain that "dating is prostitution" aren't going out of their way to dismantle the traditional gender roles that lead to such a model. Such an attitude reveals a very dim view on sex, too - women only "give it up" when they're getting something in return, as though women don't want to have sex for their enjoyment."

Yes, women want sex for enjoyment, but I believe there is a deeply ingrained feeling among both men and women that, one way or another, sex leaves the man in the woman's debt. (Evolutionarily, this is perfectly reasonble -- sex without modern contraception is always a greater risk for a woman than for a man.)Otherwise we would have heterosexual versions of gay bathhouses, where sex is considered an even exchange between partners.

brassinpocket

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @SarahMC: What they want is to own a woman for a little while - to degrade and abuse her and treat her like his own personal cum dumpster with little regard for her needs and desires."

Something tells me you and I share similar views on prostitution. At best, I am ambivalent. Most women definitely are NOT the "happy hookers" who pay off college loans and get through it safely or party with rich, famous men who respect them.

That said--I wonder how much of that could be resolved by regulation. I agree that it dehumanizes sex and opens the possibility of harm to the man/woman servicing a "client" (violence? no condoms? Fuck that.)

Considering the likelihood of violence against the typical (decidedly NOT "happy") street walker I wonder how much of that is b/c of the dynamics of prostitution (underground, run by less-than-benevolent pimps, isolated from real legal protection, etc.) and how much of that is inevitable. Would women (and men...but mostly women) still be in danger if they made a career out of following strangers into their hotel rooms, homes, cars, etc. to have sex with them? Is it comparable to another job where strangers interact with strangers in those places?

As an example--would prostitutes be the "serial killer's perfect target" even after regulation?

What about trafficking of minors or women for "fetishes" (i.e. Eastern Europeans, Asians...hell, women who don't speak English and are at a disadvantage)?

Etc. etc. etc.

That said--if Spitzer wanted sex outside home I really wonder if he (rich and powerful though he is) could have obtained the "privacy/easy access" combo he wanted without seeking a hooker. How easy would it have been for him to flirt/cheat with a woman (the non-commercial way), by flirting in an office or a bar?

God damn do I feel sorry for his wife...and, uh, DAUGHTERS...

marie123

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @BoredPhDiva: That attitude is kind of sad. Frankly, I'd rather be making less money by selling my ideas than making more money by selling my vagina.

RainbowBrite

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @BoredPhDiva: Okay, some good points, although I hope you are not referring to me at the end of your post. I have no agenda. And, actually, I too am now a PhD student and am|"I'm teaching the same course load as a tenure-track faculty member and fulfilling all the requisite duties for less than $11,000 a year." Maybe it's because I'm older now, but I much rather be doing what I'm doing and exploited in the way that I'm now exploited than earning money on my back -- mostly because there is an end date to it all. I will get my PhD within a year and start making more money (although I'll never be rich and will be paying off my loans until I die). One of the problems with having criminalized prostitution is that by making it illegal, it's very difficult to save those earnings. You can't deposit it the cash because the IRS will find out (as well as the rest of the FEDS). The money is spend on commodities. I do know lots of girls who paid off tuition fees this way, but it's still a shadow job that must remain a secret. It's hard to get ahead that way. And no one is there to teach you how to get out.

Algren

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> I don't think its fair to say that prostitutes with non-tragic stories are few and far between. That just isn't true. Its certainly skewed in that direction because of drugs, trafficking and other unfortunate things, but there are a fair number of working girls who are making an informed, consensual decision to lay for pay. Maybe its just me, but I'm far more comfortable with the exploitation of having sex for $500 an hour (and yes I realize that not many women command this rate) than the exploitation of say, graduate school where I'm teaching the same course load as a tenure-track faculty member and fulfilling all the requisite duties for less than $11,000 a year. I won't get into the details but I'll simply say that one of these experiences is far easier to swallow than the other. I would really like to see conversations about decriminalization, keeping working girls physically and emotionally healthy, and providing forums for working girls to tell their own stories rather than to have those stories consistently and constantly (mis)told by people with their own agendas.

BoredPhDiva

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> FYI-Spitzer just resigned.

Algren

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @constancescott1990: How did she leave the "impression that its okay?" I think you are really jumping to conclusions here. Not to mention the fact that the purpose of this post has nothing to do with naming the good guy or the bad guy. This discussion is a bit more thoughtful, I hope.

Algren

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> In Sweden, selling sexual services is not illegal, but buying them is. This allows the prostitute to report abuses and crimes against them without fear of arrest. It also prevents police from demanding free "services" from the prostitute in exchange for not taking them to jail.

I am definitely not pro-prostitution, I think it is degrading to women in general. The Swedish laws may be a bit hypocritical, but I think drying up the demand by punishing the johns and not the pros is the best way to go.

Afin

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> I think the question of whether prostitution is "inherently demeaning" for women depends largely on the credibility of ideas asserting that women are more susceptible to tie in emotions to sex for evolutionary or biological reasons.

bruitdautrui

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> I dion't feel sorry 4 him.he knew what he was doing. idon't feel sorry 4 his wife cause she leaves the impression that its okay. i do feel sorry for the kids though.school will be unbearable.

constancescott1990

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> I support the establishment of National Prostitutes Day, when prostitutes' contributions to our nation's strength are publicly recognized and honored.

Maybe Feb. 13?

brassinpocket

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @braak:

nope, not prose... just been doing too much copyfitting
at work lately and unconsciously do it here.

msAnthrope

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @Algren: Thank you for saying that. I think it's important that we get as many stories like this out as possible, so that the issue can be treated with the depth and nuance that it needs.

braak

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> Okay, I'm sorry, but I have to place my two cents. I worked as a call girl from the ages of 20-23 for $500 per hour. This was in the early 1990s. I am not a victim of incest. I'm sure I have daddy issues, but that's not what led me to the work. The main reason was, as others here have mentioned, economic. I was a college student who had no way of paying my tuition. Or rent. Or anything else. I was also, although I did not know it yet, bi-polar and the hyper-sexuality I felt was a symptom of severe mania. I did get off with my tricks. I also had a deluded sense of power. I was a very young woman who believed that I was in charge of the situation. But then, at 23, my beeper went off and an appointment was made and I reached for my lace stockings and they had more holes than lace and all of my working lingerie seemed filthy and corroded and I never showed up at that appointment and instead swollowed 50 prozac and took a cab to the hospital to have my stomach pumped. I did this all alone. I think, and again this was my own experience, that I had chosen this life under the myth of being powerful. I was sick and didn't know why. And I also had no idea how to take care of myself in any other way but through my sexuality. So, that's my experience. But what I find so worrying about the press surrounding the Spitzer story is the potential to romanticize prostitution. I do think it should be decriminalized so that woman can work for themselves and have more control over their work and their safety. I don't think it's something that will ever go away. But these women, women like me, are not hooker-with-hearts of gold and we are not abused little girls and we are not Holly GoLightleys. We are who we are. And there is no more power in this job than there is any other job in which you work for someone else.

Algren

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @rednrowdy: I'll just repeat what I said earlier: there are no real "blanket" reasons for or against prostitution that would satisfy me because what I feel conflicts with what I know. Of course decriminalization wouldn't erase personal history/agency or any of the other issues that swarm around prostitution, but it is a necessary step in helping sex workers who'd like to quit AND helping to create safe standards for sex workers who want to continue in the business.

The drug issue is a tangent for another day.

AnnoyingFemaleLeadVoiceover

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @SarahMC: And those men also behave as if there isn't something inherently wrong with the expectation that interactions with women ought to lead to sex in order to be successful transactions.

PilgrimSoul

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @shuffler: Fair enough!

@SarahMC: Well, I do my best. I make girls buy me dinner before I put out.

braak

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @rednrowdy: yes, absotuly, that would be better for everyone. right now, with drugs and prostitution illegal, who does an addict or a prostitue run to for help if they're being abused by their dealers or pimps? certainly not the men in blue. no it's not a panacea for all of the ills associated with either activity to just legalize them but it certainly opens up a lot of options for the actual victims when the laws on the books don't automatically treat them like criminals.

the argument that no one dreams of becoming a prostitute is a total straw man. no one dreams of becoming a janitor either but somehow that job keeps getting filled too. most people do not have the resources or education to choose their own profession, most people take the jobs they can get.

tetracycloide

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> Funny that the men who complain that "dating is prostitution" aren't going out of their way to dismantle the traditional gender roles that lead to such a model. Such an attitude reveals a very dim view on sex, too - women only "give it up" when they're getting something in return, as though women don't want to have sex for their enjoyment.

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @braak: No, true, but this is one area where I think it's dangerous to fall back on biological differences when it comes to sexuality. It's been done for too long and we all know a great deal of sexuality and the psychologically issues related to it are influenced by society and culture.

Catty Is Cumbersome

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @rednrowdy: I don't think that anyone is saying that decriminalizing prostitution is going to magically do anything. We're talking about legislation and social policy, not magic woodland fairies.

What we are saying--and some of us would be saying in the decriminalize-certain-drugs argument--is that many of the problems associated with the industry would be alleviated (not eliminated), enabling us to concentrate time and money on the real sources of the problems.

braak

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @sybann: Laura Schlessenger or however you spell it has already done so.

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @dayglo: she went from being a social worker to a prostitute. You can try and argue that they're the same contribution to society all you want, but they're not.

BadenBaden

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @shuffler: Well, mostly, probably. It's hard to pick out just what is societal and what is biological, but I think we'd be doing ourselves a disservice but supposing that there aren't any psychological differences between men and women that have their roots at the biological level.

braak

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @hushnowcharlotte: i'm speaking of MY job, not of all jobs. and yes, many jobs do have a dangerous element to their job description. with the exception of migrant farm workers (which frankly is an argument for another time and place), most if not all jobs that have an element of danger to them have unions (again, depending on the state and individual circumstances) who take care of them and their families if tragedy strikes.

@AnnoyingFemaleLeadVoiceover: and somehow by legalizing prostitution, it will magically exist in a vaccuum with everybody happily hooking? do you really think that will happen? it's the same argument used for legalizing all drugs - as if all drug addiction will just magically go away with one fell swoop. we'll just make it legal and not criminalize the act of possession. drug addicts will still exist, but they'll be like barflys or professional alcoholics at the bar, because that's better for everyone. right.

sorry folks, and let the flame throwing begin, but to an extent, everybody chooses their job (at least in the US - i'm not talking globally here). with all due respect to personal life circumstances, nobody embarks on a career into a chosen profession with a proverbial gun to their head that forces them to interview. all professions have benefits and drawbacks, but i don't know a single person with dreams of becoming a prostitute.

rednrowdy

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @SarahMC: Hushnowcharlotte's example of migrant farms workers was actually a really good one for thsi debate. Often, in this country, migrants are illegals who are brought in to this country by farmers: their basic human rights aren't respected and they don't make a living wage, much like some sex workers. But with migrants we say that the solution is to have legal workers, to build in legal protections, not to do away with the work itself.
I think this is backing up your point about the dispairities between sex work and other dangerous physical labor.

stasis

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> Anyone else waiting for some stupid prick to blame his wife for not taking it in the ass?

sybann

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @SarahMC: Agreed. These supposed biological differences that people consider are a result of misogyny/patriarchal structures.

@dayglo: "I do believe personally that it also has to do with the fact that there just arent' that many really good sex toys for men."

Hahaha, just lots and lots of porn fit for any man's taste. You were joking, right?

Catty Is Cumbersome

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @bananaballs: I think the danger of the "free choice" argument regarding prostitution is that it assumes that people's choices are unlimited - i.e. that there aren't any factors beyond their control. Which I think most people would argue is their actual experience of choice - picking between never entirely perfect alternatives. It's not disrespectful to someone's exercise of free will to suspect that, given other circumstances, she might have made a different choice.

That said, thumbs down on the criminalization of the actual act of prostitution - like someone much more eloquently said, it's the result of a lot of different societal problems, and our energy is much better spent trying to abate those problems...

PilgrimSoul

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @SarahMC: You know, I typically disagree with most things that you say, but this is EXACTLY how I feel about the topic. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with exchanging money for sex if both parties are consenting adults. And I'm sure there are a handful of sex workers who are not addicts, weren't subjct to childhood abuse, aren't being exploited, etc, but those are so few and far between.

RainbowBrite

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @dayglo: I don't think men want more sex than women. Most johns could get sex from their wives, girlfriends, or a woman in a bar (if he took the time to treat her nicely for a half hour). What they want is to own a woman for a little while - to degrade and abuse her and treat her like his own personal cum dumpster with little regard for her needs and desires.

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @SarahMC: Sorry. This is exactly why a) I never get anything done in life, and b) none of my friends ever want to talk to me.

braak

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @braak: too. many. questions!

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @LilyBonesBurana: I'm with you. There are more female prostitutes not NESSECARILY because of misogyny (although no doubt that's significant) but also because maybe men want sex more than women? VERY generally speaking, of course.

This may be biological. This may be societal. If it is biological, there's not a whole lot we're going to be able to do about it.

I do believe personally that it also has to do with the fact that there just arent' that many really good sex toys for men.

dayglo

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @hushnowcharlotte: Clearly not all sex workers are abused, and it's a violation to insist to someone that they were abused (regardless of if they were or not). We would never ask a woman to admit she was raped even if she was. Sex workers take a lot of abuse from people outside of the sex industry and there are a lot of reasons for this that aren't even worth going into. Just don't pin that crap on feminists. It's more than just so-called feminists who are doing it, for example psychologists and researchers.

Catty Is Cumbersome

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @msAnthrope: Are you consciously trying to write your comments in verse, or is that just a weird format thing?

braak

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @Cam/ron: Well, it's true that lawmakers are whores of the worst kind.

As for traditional dating--the farther back in time you go, the more like prostitution it becomes. I can't say I'd be especially sad to see traditional dating and marriage customs fall by the wayside.

braak

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @hushnowcharlotte:

i think a lot of people who work in physical jobs
get paid under the table and really aren't so
protected in any way.

suppose the illegality of prostitution is gone:
why then is selling your body any more
"demeaning" then selling your mind? which is
what we all do when we go to work.

i'm not talking about people who don't want
to be sex workers. but those who do want to
be.

msAnthrope

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @braak: There's also the matter of legal prositution that's practiced by our federal lawmakers and their lobbyist johns everyday. I also often hear from cynics that traditional dating is a form of legal prostition (bloke takes woman to dinner, movie, offers her gift, and pays for all expenses in exchange for sex).

Cam/ron

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> where is collegecallgirl on this? i need insight!

bellasarah

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @LaComtesse: No, I know. I was just making the argument that it's not as great as it's cracked up to be. While I don't pity them, I am just pointing out that the system is not in the woman's favor.

Catty Is Cumbersome

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @bananaballs: The things you said are right. The issue of whether prostitution should be legalized is important, but I wasn't really trying to go there -- I'm kinda torn on that issue. I was just trying to address the question of whether it's inherently demeaning, and the answer I come up with is yes. And, of course, lots of people do jobs that are demeaning or less than perfectly safe, so it's not like I'm condemning sex workers who are just out there trying to support themselves.

RosePetalPlace

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @RosePetalPlace: Well, I think we're mostly on the same page. I'm for decriminalized, well-regulated prostitution, and I'm also all for outreach programs, support networks, and therapy for people who need it. I just want to make sure that we're not sort of missing the real problem here--it's not that prostitution is inherently wrong; the problem is the psychological baggage and physical and emotional abuse suffered by many prostitutes.

braak

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @SarahMC: yes, I agree with you entirely.

hushnowcharlotte

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @SarahMC: I haven't had a "Durr" thrown at me in a while!

rsr26

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @SarahMC: Well, is it? I don't know about any of that stuff. How does a woman go looking for a prostitue? What does she look for? What are the circumstances that lead her to it? And what, exactly, are the numbers on male prostitutes? Would we be accurate in suggesting that the number of male prostitutes in the country (which is very small) represents how many female prostitutes there would be if women had social parity?

This brings us into a lot of questions about men adn women and opportunity, though. If we look at this Natalie woman--well, she was an aspiring actress, which means she's probably got a useless higher-ed degree, if she's got one at all. But a white woman from Montreal, they've got solid public schools there. Did she lack for opportunities?

Because if we want to say that the disparity is related to opportunities, we've got to both show that men have more opportunites, adn the women who are prostitutes have fewer.

And are men right to think that selling sex debases them? Should we be encouraing women to think that selling sex debases them, or should we be encouraging men to think that it doesn't?

braak

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @rsr26: DURRRR

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @SarahMC: And, obviously, that's because prostitution is illegal.

rsr26

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> I'm sorry, I'll just never believe that it's empowerment to fuck someone for money.

3cardkitty

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @hamburgerhotdog: Sorry, you clarified.

dayglo

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @hushnowcharlotte: But miners, construction workers, and farmers have legal rights and protections built into their jobs. Prostitutes don't, and that's not right.

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @RosePetalPlace: i think that's great, and you probably have great relationships with people who love and respect you and all that. but sometimes civil rights shouldn't be dictated by idealistic views on relationships. not every sex act, paid or unpaid, is based on the potential for a relationship.

a lot of people have jobs that demean them, but are perfectly legal.

bananaballs

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @Meanmllemustard: @LaComtesse: Now that would make an interesting sequel to "Pretty Woman". Anybody want to work on a script with me?

MaMaMoose

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @braak: Well, I can't picture a society free of all the ills you mentioned, so I agree, it's kind of a silly hypothetical. But I hear what you're saying, and perhaps my thinking isn't lucid enough for me to logically spell it with the level of specificity you're seeking at this point. But I think it's ok if my judgment on this question is at least partially shaped by my emotional or instinctual reaction to it. We're talking opinions, here.

Like you said, we all do things that enable less-than-ideal yet practical solutions. But I do think the application of the same kind of logic can have drastically different impacts, depending on the situation. And when we're talking about prostitution, I think we do end up with a negative impact on the hooker. I'm not trying to be all holier-than-thou about this. I know the reality isn't so nice for lots of people. If it was easy for everyone to find healthy, respectful, fulfilling relationships and/or sex then prostitution wouldn't really be needed. And I can understand needing to make a buck, so I'm not trying to condemn the prostitutes. This will always be around, and I think it's best when it occurs in as safe and non-coercive environment as possible. I just think the reality is that it doesn't happen this way very often, no matter how many "happy hookers" are trotted out on the morning talk shows.

RosePetalPlace

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @toubab: "no healthy woman turns to prostitution" is an untrue statement.

I don't exactly "love" my job either, but it's tolerable enough for me to do and get paid.

dayglo

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @AnnoyingFemaleLeadVoiceover:
You're selling your body for an hour or two, so some jerk can take advantage of what he can get away with.
Isn't this a way to describe how a number people feel about their jobs?

YES!

thegreenman

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @Kilotwat: The irony being, once they get a little fame from being a porn star, many then start escorting because they can charge more.

Macloserboy

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @rednrowdy: prostitution doesn't exist in a vaccuum. That was to point of the rest of my rambling which is why I refuse to come down on either side of the argument except to say that prostitution should be decriminalized. The reference to prostitution being the equivalent of jobs where people are taken advantage of was me being flippant.

AnnoyingFemaleLeadVoiceover

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @rednrowdy: I don't understand what you mean. Maybe you are not asked to do anything potentially unsafe to your body, but obviously many, many workers are - miners, construction workers, even farmers since some farm equipment is nothing to fuck around with. Migrant workers have notoriously terrible working conditions that are very hard on them physically.

And clearly, none of us exist in a vacuum. We all live in a misogynistic culture. But I don't understand how that totally removes authenticity for sex workers and (apparently) not for everyone else? I don't know how you could say to anyone, "I know for a fact that what you've say you've chosen isn't true." Sounds pretty arrogant and indefensible to me.

hushnowcharlotte

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @BadenBaden: What did she contribute to society? Isn't just doing a job well a contribution? She makes people happy. Isn't that a contribution? It's the same contribution that anyone in the service industry makes. Sure, they aren't exactly curing cancer, but that doesn't mean it isn't a contribution.

I'm a secretary. My contribution to society is probably less than hers.

dayglo

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> So, basically, if I were an "escort" I could make over 60 (yes, SIXTY) times my current hourly rate. I might get naked for that.

thegreenman

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @dayglo: Keep reading, I clarifed below. The men seeing Tracy Quan are not poor.

hamburgerhotdog

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @sarahmc. I think it's really a matter of lacking a market. I sincerely doubt even a fraction of as many women would pay for sex as men will--and do.

LilyBonesBurana

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @braak: thank you braak! I love you. and you, AnnoyingFemaleLeadVoiceover, and you, SarahMC

@toubab: "no healthy woman turns to prostitution as a choice"? Excuse me? How is this any less wrong, demeaning, and just plain stupid to say than "no healthy woman turns to abortion as a choice"? fuck you, seriously.

I frustrated me that there are only two ways sex workers are portrayed in our media: a) glamorous, sweet, happy, etc. or b) a slave, abused, mentally, emotionally, physically damaged, and - often- not white. Of course both of these stereotypes exist - yes, even the first one, no matter how much people want to insist all expensive escorts go home every night and cry themselves to sleep - but there are plenty of women who have mixed feelings about it, have good days and bad days (just like, ahem, every other fucking job on the planet) and don't want to have their experiences flattened into one of those two cliches.

I've been a sex worker for four years now, and let me tell you, it's pretty demeaning to have other women say, to your face, that you are lying about not having been sexually abused. I don't think I've actually ever had a client do anything as insulting as what some "feminists" have said and done to me.

hushnowcharlotte

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @Macloserboy: I'm not saying there aren't any differences between adult film performers and prostitutes, I was genuinely wondering how people felt about the former.

Kilotwat

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @hamburgerhotdog: How do you figure that men who pay for sex are never poor?

This is not true at all.

dayglo

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @andromache: phew. i dont now. theres a lot of ladies from all walks of life here and i didnt want to insult anyone by saying anything stupid. :)

ineffable.me

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @rednrowdy: Lots of people, however, do have very dangerous jobs and often put their body in serious danger so they can get paid. Boxers, for example, get the shit beaten out of them for money.

rsr26

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @braak: Well consider the fact that few men sell sex in our current society. It's not that women aren't horny or looking for NSA affairs. It's that men have other opportunities available, and think selling sex debases them.

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @bananaballs: well said.

Lazash

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> You'd find the same stuff in my purse but I'd be rockin payless shoes rather than Manalos.

God I wish I was pretty enough to be a highpriced hooker.

dayglo

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @Kilotwat: The difference there is they're being paid to perform for the purpose of entertainment. I know some can't see much difference, but there is some.

Macloserboy

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @AnnoyingFemaleLeadVoiceover: at least when i show up to work every day, as annoying as it might be, i'm not being asked to do anything that is potentially unsafe to my body, regardless of my mental state.

it would be lovely to say that all sex workers have freely chosen their professions, and many say that they do, but we all know for a fact that isn't true. prostitution doesn't exist in a vaccuum.

rednrowdy

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @hamburgerhotdog: @shuffler: 50% of 2,000 is still $1,000 an hour. I'm not weeping to hard for them.

LaComtesse

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @RosePetalPlace: I'm not sure how you know that--that in a non-misogynist society, few women would sell sex.

But I don't really know what a non-misogynist society would look like, so I'm not sure how that would pan out.

Even then, though--do we say this is right, but only in ideal circumstances? Therefore, every practiced instance of it is wrong?

I hope not, because enabling practical situations that are less than ideal is part of the logic-complex that I've been using to answer a lot of other problems.

braak

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @ineffable.me: OF COURSE i am "half joking." maybe it's difficult to sense sarcasm/irony over the internets because you can't hear someone's inflection?

@MaMaMoose: thank you for the supporting words! i'm sure we will both get through our rough times. i suppose my main coping mechanism is to make scathing, self-deprecating remarks because i'd rather laugh than cry. i send good wishes your way as well!

andromache is freakin' out, man.

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @MaMaMoose: My husband actually used to work with a woman who was a former call girl. She used to ask about our relationship/courtship all the time, reveling in its "normalcy." When he finally felt comfortable enough to ask her how she met her husband, she replied: "Ever see 'Pretty Woman'? It was like that, but he wasn't that rich and I wasn't that pretty." He didn't believe it at first, but the story was later confirmed. I often wonder where their relationship will lead them because the dynamics have GOT to be strange...

LaComtesse

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @MaMaMoose: Yeah, I was reading about the Emperors VIP website on Slate, and they actually had a section essentially saying "if you want to move to keeping one of our girls as your mistress, we'll work out how much you need to pay us to buy her." Very romantic, there.

Meanmllemustard

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @bananaballs: Of course I'm bringing my own values into this. I value functional, respectful, egalitarian relationships between men and women (and everyone for that matter). I think that sex should occur voluntarily, without coercion, and there should be a level playing field. I think adding payment into the mix throws that off. Especially when you consider what the reality is for a lot of call girls -- they may say they're choosing to be there, but there's usually some factor limiting the scope of the choices they have. There may be some exceptions, but I think they're rare.

RosePetalPlace

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> Yeah, $500+ per hour is a real bummer. And that's for the cheap hos at this place...the expensive ones, assuming 50% take, are getting upwards of $2500/hr. For that I'd have sex with just about anything you put in front of me.

friendlynerd

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> What about pornographic film actors? Should that profession be illegal? Is it immoral? Are the actors involved victims?

Kilotwat

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @msAnthrope: @Motown: Well, and I think that that's kind of part of the problem. Talking about the issue of prostitution as a place where people with a variety of personal issues (both prostitutes and johns) sort of conflates a lot of problems, and makes it seem like prostitution is the problem.

The consequences of sexual abuse are not cut-and-dried. The nature of victimization is not cut-and-dried. And when we're talking about prostitutes who've been the victims of abuse, we're still using words like "many" and "most."

This is what makes it seem like addressing it at the level of "prostitution is inherently wrong" doesn't quite jive, because we can never unequivocally say that it always makes women into victims--it's only wrong in certain circumstances.

braak

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @shuffler: According to Natalie it's 10% booker, then the remaining goes 50/50 agency/girl. So it's less than that. Which is pretty 'effing insulting, and yeah, not so empowering.

hamburgerhotdog

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @SarahMC: Yeah, exactly. Even the men having sex with prostitutes don't think it's okay, really. They'd never want their daughters or female family members doing it.

JessaFields

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @JessaFields: What's weird about that movie is that they have a moment of self-awareness when his girlfriend asks how would he feel if she'd whore'd herself the way he did?

And you're all making me wondered what happened in Deuce Bigalow's life that lead him down that awful path. Same with Dermot Mulroney in The Wedding Date.

Macloserboy

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> I heard on the news this morning that the prostitutes take home only 50% of the money exchanged in a transaction. That's so not empowering.

Catty Is Cumbersome

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> Okay this is the last time I'm going to try and post this.

You're selling your body for an hour or two, so some jerk can take advantage of what he can get away with
Isn't this a way to describe how a number people feel about their jobs? I'm the last person to buy the notion of a happy hooker, and not to be naive here, but I think it's unfair and misleading to write most people in sex work off as damaged or bad as a way to explain their chosen profession. There are questions of personal agency, discriminatory laws, personal history, and a number of other issues that offer no real blanket "reasons" for or against prostitution.

Forgive me for not making any sense, prostitution is something I go back and forth on (making it legal, issues of power) just about any time I read about it. So I'll just take the easy way out and say that prostitution is about context for me.

/rambling

AnnoyingFemaleLeadVoiceover

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @braak: In your list of "-isms" and abuses that would be nonexistant in this hypothetical situation, you didn't mention that sexism/misogyny. If women and men had equal levels of power and were valued equally in society, then I think there would actually be very few women who still chose to sell their bodies. But, if they did, I'd say then and only then would it be a truly "victimless crime."

RosePetalPlace

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @distressedpony: i see what youre getting at and all, but apples and oranges, man.

ineffable.me

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> On the left, pictures of objectified women. On the right, pictures of objectified women. Which is the American Apparel ad, and which is the article-illustrating hooker menu?

Oh right, at least with the hookers we get to see their names and faces...

distressedpony

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @andromache: It's not the oldest profession. Sales and pimping are.

Catty Is Cumbersome

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @braak: no, of course not. i'm sure there's some women who actually just like having sex and getting paid for it, and although I think it's weird, hey, you do what you like, knowwhatimean?
But i would venture to say that most women who are in prostitutes probably didn't have um very many opportunities in life to better themselves and when you add abuse to that, well its a recipe for disaster.
the weird thing is that i was talking with the boyf yesterday and he asked me how prostitution is different from porn since i am not down with prostitution and am ok with porn and i couldnt really come up with a better answer other than "it just is"

ineffable.me

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> Just read the McLennan Q&A, and what the hell is wrong with women that they fantasize about being whisked away by man? She talks about a fellow former escort who fell in love with a john, I mean, date, and he has a house in London, NY, etc., and now they are getting married. McLennan says "Isn't that great?" No, I really don't think it is. Are the dynamics of their relationship really going to change after they get married? In the man's eyes, is she really going to be an equal owner of those properties? Why don't some women want to take control of their lives rather than letting a man have it? Why do they sell themselves short like that?

MaMaMoose

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> I don't think prostitution is, by definition, wrong or degrading. But in our society? When men and women are unequal and women are viewed as "sex" personified? When prostitutes are viewed as the scum of the earth by mainstream society AND their own clients? If misogyny magically disappears, fine. Until then, it should be decriminalized.

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @hamburgerhotdog:

yeah i see what you mean in that particular quote.
she was using the industry in general to try and
soft-pedal the fallout from what just happened in
her specific high-end niche! (high-end *snort*).

msAnthrope

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> Women at this level in the prostitution game are no doubt very often sad, hurting individuals, but I don't think it's intrinsically exploitative. They are being paid a "fair" wage for a service. The issue of respect came up: this isn't about respect, this is about business-- same way I pay a person to come paint my house.

@hamburgerhotdog: No man who pays THESE women for sex, but a lot of men who pay $20 for a blow job are quite poor.

LaComtesse

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @hamburgerhotdog: Screw you "Natalie." I'd rather my marriage not be "sustained" than be built on lies.

funnyface

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @RosePetalPlace: well, else what do you call the exchange of good or services for money? how, exactly, is it demeaning? are you sure you're not placing your own values into the equation?

bananaballs

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @braak: I think what she's getting at is that most people who choose to be prostitutes are already victims. Most have been abused. They think this is the only path of worth for them. They're either praised or punished for their body. So the act of selling their body reinforces the abuse they've already suffered. It's a continuation of their victimbood. I'm not sure if that makes sense, or if victimhood is a word.

I really don't know how I feel about this issue. I recognize that its illegality will not stop it from occuring. I also applaud any attempts to make these women's lives safer. I just don't like that a certain group of people tend to become prostitutes. And that's generally not the girls I grew up with in my upper-middle class neighborhood.

Motown

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> The whole scandal has made me want to watch "Loverboy," starring Patrick Dempsey as a pizza boy/gigolo. Now there's a fun movie about prostitution.

JessaFields

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @braak:

i don't think the results of childhood sex abuse is that
cut and dried. some people may grow up to "abuse" as
you see with boys who are sexually abused and grow up
to be men who are pedaphiles. i don't know how much
that is documented with women.

but i do know that many who fall under the "sex addict"
category have also suffered childhood trauma, such as
being sexually abused by a parent, or even repeatedly
witnessing a parent being openly unfaithful to the other
parent.

these people then become those who need sex to
regulate their moods and cope with stress... so they'd
become the johns constantly looking for sex, or
the people on craigslist willing to hook up with
anybody, or somebody who just is very very
promiscuous.

msAnthrope

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @braak: i think that the whole point of the piece is not merely to convince people that prostitution is a bad idea. i think that it challenges the public, officials, policy makers, etc. to stop stigmatizing prostitutes and to actually start helping them in concrete ways. For example, if a prostitute is caught offering sex for money, she'll be thrown in jail. There's not much support system for her at all-- no substance abuse help, counseling, employment services, etc.

Historically, our patriarchal society has seen prostitutes as fallen women or over-sexualized whores/femme fatales(sp?) who are subjects of humiliation and castigation-- they are not to be saved, bec. they are already damned.

Well, we have to change that misconception!

nicole1729

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @ineffable.me: Okay. Well, I understand wanting to help at the level of the women involved. If we say: here's therapy, here's alternatives, don't be crazy. That's all good, I'm in favor of that. But what if she decides to become a prostitute anyway? Because based on this idea that prostitution inherently victimizes the prostitutes, that would mean that any woman that wanted to be a prostitute would be, by definition, mentally unstable.

But that can't be right, can it? I mean, what if you (in this imaginary, ideal situation) helped all the women that were the victims of incest and sexual abuse, and you eliminated racism, and eased the discepency of economic hardship, and there were still women that wanted to be prostitutes? Are those women still victims?

braak

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @msAnthrope: Let me clarify then: any man who can afford the services of Natalie or Tracy Quan or a seven-cubic zirconia call girl they're paying hundreds or thousands of dollars plus hotel room for isn't poor. Tracy Quan's quote, "I've never been in favor of arresting and shaming men who pay for sex. Most customers who get in trouble aren't high-profile politicians like Eliot Spitzer. Their 'crime' is that they're poor or getting started in life." is odd - is she supposed to be referring to Johns or call girls by the last sentence? It's strangely worded.

hamburgerhotdog

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> Someone should contact Charlie Gasparino of CNBC..While commenting on the Spitzer scandal on Monday, he couldn't say enough times on the air how prostitution was a victim-less crime...in front of a panel of women nonetheless!! They each gasped every time he said it...At one point, I was more offended by this ignorant, pious asshole than the fact that Spitzer had just humiliated his entire family and the State of New York. I'm sure a lil' background check on Gasparino would reveal a few indiscretions of his own.

mypupmaxigirl

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> I think the "transaction" is inherently demeaning. It just shows a lack of respect for women, and it's supporting an industry where sexual abuse, drugs, violence and other threats to safety are rampant.

But I do think prostitution will always be around, and if there's any way to do it right, (I hate to say it, but) it would probably look something like the now-infamous Emperor's Club -- women getting paid really well, having a certain degree of autonomy/freedom to move about, and the ability to tell a John who doesn't want to use a condom, "Look, do you want the sex, or not?"

RosePetalPlace

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> Jezebel, are you trying to make us not read this site? COMMENTS. No matter how often I refresh or clean my cache.

BadenBaden

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @braak: oh no no! i didnt mean that at all.
i meant that maybe they meant that if they help abused women then they wont turn into prostitutes sort of thing. yes, that last sentence is accurate in what i mean, the whole "being a prostitute is her repeated victimization"

ineffable.me

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @SarahMC: jinx :)

We keep reading that johns are rarely arrested. But that's probably the rich, Harvard-educated ones like Spitzer. There's plenty of schlobs in NY and DC even serving time for it, as they should, they broke the law. Did I spell schlobs right?

freedc

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @SarahMC: Especially in the morning.

MaMaMoose

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @toubab: yeah, i agree. i was talking about this with the bf yesterday. there's just something so skeevy about it.

ineffable.me

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @ineffable.me: But isn't the cycle of abuse when you, having been abused, become an abuser yourself? It doesn't seem like prostitution--certainly not expensive prostitution like this--actually creates new abusers.

I'm not trying to be a jackass or anything, I'm just trying to figure it out. If the woman was sexually abused when she was younger, isn't she a victim of that crime? Is it then accurate to say that being a prostitute is her repeated victimization?

There's just something weird here that I'm having trouble articulating.

braak

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @andromache: Just remember, life can totally surprise you. (get ready for cheesiness): Just don't give up, and keep your eye on long term goals.
I'm struggling with a similar situation myself. (at least it sounds like it)

MaMaMoose

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @SarahMC: his defense team is planning on meeting with prosecutors to discuss a "legal liability." that's all i got!

bananaballs

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> Yay. The hooker-fucking hypocritical governor is resigning. Now, if only he'll be arrested...doubtful.

freedc

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @hamburgerhotdog:

i don't think she means Hunts Point. you said "any man who pays for sex isn't poor." you weren't location-specific! i agree people who pay for escorts aren't poor, but in shitty parts of cities sex is just a couple of dollars changing hands. especially when you're talking about addicts on both sides (drug-addicted hookers and sex-addicted johns who'll spend their last $5 for sex instead of food.)

msAnthrope

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> As with all vice, I just wish we would make it legal, as safe as possible, and tax the hell out of it. Drugs and prostitution just aren't going away anytime soon.

myrtlebeachbum

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> Fucking $80K!?! Man loves himself some sodomy. And while I agree the "victim" of prostitution is the prostitute themselves if no one else, it's the world's oldest profession for a reason, and good luck trying to stomp it out.

Macloserboy

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @MaMaMoose: nah, that's what HBO is for...

bananaballs

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> Being used is never empowering and no healthy woman turns to prostitution as a choice. As the runt prosecutor, my sister used to deal with the hookers and the johns and yes, the girls all wanted to get back on the street but it wasnt because they LOVE getting paid for sex. The city she works for actually focused more on the johns (making them attend special classes and posting their pictures on the internet).

I've always said I would dump a man in an instant if I found out he had used a prostitute because there is something so misogynistic about it. Paying a woman to pretend that you are something special...gives me the heebie jeebies. Especially the guys that could get it for free because I feel like they just want to feel superior to someone.

toubab

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @MaMaMoose: Well that would be a bonerkiller and we can't have that.

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> Shouldn't Spitzer be getting arrested?

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @SarahMC: It seems the "happy hooker" plays right into how society would like all women to be-- open and ready at all times, and happy about it. Of course they're not going to show the ugly side of prostitution by interviewing women with stories that don't jive with the "happy hooker" story. It's such a downer.

MaMaMoose

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @msAnthrope: yeah, exactly.

ineffable.me

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> @hamburgerhotdog: i dont get it.

@andromache: i would really hope that are you are half joking in your comment. for your sake.

ineffable.me

]]> <![CDATA[Enough About Eliot; What About The Hookers?]]> Where the