Tina Fey On SNL : "Bitch Is The New Black" - Jezebel Comments

same to you! it really has been great, and you've made me think a lot, and do a bit more research in the process. hope work goes well... i should do some myself.

inchworm

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

inchworm — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 19:18:13 EST

@That_little_attention_whore:
1. i think that the healthcare reform aspect of the plan would involve a) capping costs of private insurers and b) bringing medicare/medicaid up to speed. afterall, it's much easier to improve a government program than it is to legislate change for private entities extensively. this is HRC's goal, anyway... to make the government insurance plan as good as or better than the private plans of comparable cost. so that people will dump private carriers for the government carrier.

2. the discrepancy in the care offered by hospitals, at its worst, is due to the fact that doctors know that some plans don't reimburse. that they'll never get paid. that's why medicaid needs to be improved. her goal is to equilibrate the government plans with the private ones, so that there won't be a difference. of course, there will always be high-end private plans... really expensive ones that only wealthier people can afford that will provide coverage for more things. much like what happens in canada. and if you can afford one of those guys, you probably will get better treatment. that's the case in canada. it's the case in the UK, too. but that won't matter if the bulk of the insurance plans are on par with medicaid. the richies can pay more to get more, and yeah it sucks that everyone isn't created perfectly equal. but there you are. it really won't be any different than any of the other socialized systems with a second, private tier.

3) they are reallocating tax revenues. the thing is, in any shift to any kind of universal care, costs increase before they stabilize and then decline. so they will be funding this with tax money.

the reason no one is saying, let's make this all taxes and do the single-payer thing is because it cuts out the insurance companies too soon, and they're afraid that they'll lobby really hard in what is going to amount to a close election (in terms of dem vs repub). also there are some legit economic concerns regarding the size of the US. going straight to single-payer based on tax revenue alone will require much more money up front then offering this plan, in which medicaid will be improved and people will gradually switch over while the costs are CONCURRENTLY being reduced due to the increase in preventative care that will occur in the mandated, pay-in system.

inchworm

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 19:11:36 EST

@inchworm: well, I have to say that it has been a genuine pleasure discussing this with you, but I have to logoff now, or else I won't get any work done tonight, and my dinner will burn. My TV is broken so...no oscars for me :( Anyway, again - great talking to you, you really made me think a lot, and I appreciate that.

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

trescharmant — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 19:11:31 EST

@Political Party Girl: OOh, your sarcasm is well noted. However, she promised to be an assertive, activist First Lady, and Bill Clinton did refer to her as his "co-president". She wasn't, nor did she have national security clearance, YET, she's running on her experience from those years as a Washington player and my point is, she was a disaster.

trescharmant

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 19:08:57 EST

@inchworm: I think we probably are in agreement, too. I guess the difference between us is the extend to which we think either plan will be implemented as is, and whether that difference is enough to support one candidate over another.

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 19:06:46 EST

@inchworm: I guess my question would be,

1. what would be the extend of the coverage offered by the expanded Medicaid/Medicare in comparison to the private providers?
2. If sassymoniker's accounts are representative, and the problems with set reimbursements are prevalent everywhere, what is to prevent a discrepancy in the care offered by hospitals to private vs. public insured?
3. Why must they make people pay out of pocket for the government insurance instead of re-allocating current tax revenues? Or, if they want people to pay directly in, then are they going to cut taxes somewhere along the line to make up the difference?

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

inchworm — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 19:02:33 EST

i actually think that you and i are in total agreement here, except that i think that HRC's plan is, while not ideal, significantly better than BO's. better enough to help a lot of people. AND i think that it has real potential to gravitate towards what we (you and i) want. i mean, HRC wants that too. that's why she tried for it the first time. that's why this plan is designed to facilitate movement to single-payer with second tier private plans as an option.

inchworm

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

inchworm — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:59:38 EST

well, yeah, but we're talking about *her* plan. who's a better authority on what she's proposed than her? i'm not saying that everything will pass unscathed, but the plan as it is currently laid out dictates those options.

inchworm

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:58:40 EST

@That_little_attention_whore: ooh, it was just the parts in quotes. my bad, I thought the analysis you did at the end was from her campaign website, too. Need to read better

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

inchworm — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:58:29 EST

in other words, you AREN'T obligated to pay a private, for profit company. if this plan comes into being, you can decide to pay the government. there will be a price gradient for medicaid based on your income, but they WILL be opening up government plans for public enrollment.

inchworm

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:57:46 EST

@inchworm: well, that's an unbiased source ;-)

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:56:05 EST

@sassymoniker: I see what you're getting at here, but I think you may have my positions reversed.

I think, at the basic level, healthcare should be subsidized directly by the government. No middle man, no people lining their pockets deciding whether people get to live or die, none of that. Medicare and Medicaid are kinda sucky and limited is because they are seen as sort of last-resort options. Hospitals and such are more negligent towards Medicaid and Medicare patients because they know they can charge insurance companies more money (the profit motive is also a problem in hospitals - more and more are going from non-profit to for-profit, and I think that is a whole other problem that needs to be addressed)

The private competition would be for the above-and-beyond quality of care, like for people who want to stay in those super duper swanky hotel-like hospitals. Subsidizing basic care for everyone would mean there is no difference in terms of treatment for patients. Naysayers will argue that this means that everyone gets horrible, negligent care as a result, but, having direct experience with the Canadian system, I can say that this is simply not true.

The problem with HMOs and competition is that your options are dictated by the area you live, or the choices available to your employer. There's not much to gain from choosing between plan A and plan B if they're both crap, and your only alternative is no coverage at all.

I guess the real root of the problem is that, at some point, healthcare went from a means to provide for the health, welfare and productivity of the people in the country, to a way for big businesses to make a crapload of money. And I will admit, I am not sure how to go about changing that aspect of the system.

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

inchworm — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:55:34 EST

@Skinny Bone Jones:

i believe it's by percentage, so the wealthiest 1%. the lowest dollar number for htat would be 200K for an individual. i don't know what it would translate to with increased family members. i'll see what i can dig up.

inchworm

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

inchworm — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:53:34 EST

@inchworm:

PS that quote was from HRC's healthcare proposal. on her website. sorry i forget to cite.

inchworm

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

inchworm — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:51:55 EST

i agree that a government-run, single payer system would be better. that's not an option here.

"If you have a plan you like, you keep it. If you want to change plans or aren't currently covered, you can choose from dozens of the same plans available to members of Congress, or you can opt into a public plan option like Medicare. And working families will get tax credits to help pay their premiums."

the clinton plan allows you to opt into medicare or medicaid if you want to avoid the private plans. or you can swim around in the private companies, too. and if you DO choose to stay with a for-profit insurer, you'll be paying the same people, yes, but you'll be paying them less.

anyway, that's how it's designed to move TOWARDS government-based single-payer. there will be reform to make private companies better, yes, but ultimately the govn't will have more control over medicare/medicaid. it will beef them up, make them better, and when you get to choose between the better (or at least comparable), cheaper, government plan, most people will do just that. hence a massive shift to a government-plan.

inchworm

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:45:03 EST

@bowlingfordollars: I wish I could be that money person, but sadly...I am not there yet. Someday, though, I hope to be cutting fat campaign checks to quality candidates...

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

sassymoniker — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:38:26 EST

@That_little_attention_whore: So, maybe this my spoiled, California-naivete, but I don't understand why we don't still need that free-market pressure working for the basic health-care services to keep the services at an optimum level.

Medicaid (I've been on it) is pretty crappy coverage. The doctors are less observant and attentive, and your options are just zilch. The coverage I have now, I can pick and choose my HMO, and the shitty HMO's get dropped, because no one opts in to those plans. The issue seems like it's making the insurance people buy AFFORDABLE, which is why we need the government middle-man -- to subsidize.

sassymoniker

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

BowlingForDollars — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:38:03 EST

@PhillyLass: I think it's pro, based on Tina Fey's rant.

Wow, some people work fast. I should order one.

BowlingForDollars

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

PhillyLass — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:36:53 EST

Anyone have an idea whether this is pro- or anti-Hilary?

[www.cafepress.com]

PhillyLass

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

BowlingForDollars — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:36:48 EST

@That_little_attention_whore: I have thought many times of running for mayor of my city. Isn't that funny? I could probably win, as long as I had a great money-person. I mean, even Walt Disney had Roy Disney, who helped execute Walt's ideas.

I would be the creative one, and would need that special partner to make it practical.

Thanks for compliment!

@Skinny Bone Jones: I just meant that universal health care would work like public schools, in the sense that it's a given, and tax payer funded.

Don't get me started on education. ;)

BowlingForDollars

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

Political Party Girl — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:34:17 EST

@sassymoniker: Oh yeah, then. Gotta love those kiddies, too!

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:33:46 EST

@sassymoniker: glad to be of service, om nom nom nom

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:31:54 EST

@inchworm: Well, it isn't a tax. A tax would be money going from you to the government to pay for services. In this case, it's your money to go to pay a private insurer. And yeah, I know the government contracts a lot of services out to private and non-profit organizations, but in the case of insurance, it's just redundant. YOu are paying the government to pay the insurer to pay for your treatment. Why can't the government just pay it directly, as in Medicare and Medicaid? The only purpose it serves is extra profit for shareholders of the insurance companies. Which I'm sure is very lucrative if the government is essentially forcing consumers to purchase their services.

Mandatory insurance as "universal healthcare" is about as sensible as the government giving Sallie Mae money so I can borrow my federal Stafford loans from Sallie Mae. It is an unnecessary middleman, that is creating more paperwork and bureaucracy than necessary, all perpetrated by the myth that "the private sector is totally more efficient." Sometimes yes, sometimes...not so much. I say, let insurance be for people who want something beyond the basic level, and let insurance companies compete in the market.

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

sassymoniker — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:31:26 EST

@That_little_attention_whore: You've given me some tasty food for thought and I am a very hungry lady.

sassymoniker

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:26:32 EST

@sassymoniker: What you say would be true if we were talking about a Canadian style single payer system funded by tax monies. But we aren't. We are talking about making people buy insurance, i.e. pay money to insurance companies. I pay for my own insurance now: it's not much different from what we're doing now already (albeit voluntarily).

What would be a more efficient way to do it, is to cut out the middleman entirely (insurers, hmos and friends) and use actual tax revenues to pay for it, instead of making taxpayers fork out out-of-pocket money. There are definitely some expenses we could do without (I'm looking at you, Iraq). Another way would be through eliminating the Bush tax cuts. Congress ultimately would (and should) bear responsibility, though, in the form of efficiently re-allocating the budget, and in cutting back on the pork and earmarks (a girl can dream...) I am paying for insurance now - how would a law making me do essentially the same thing I am already going make that much of a difference? Right now, I'm paying for my own insurance, which is what I would be doing under either Obama or Clinton's plans. So, I'm partly paying for other people's health care already because my insurer is pooling risks as it is. More people buying insurance is a greater risk pool, which may means premiums go down - or maybe they don't. A tax would mean we all pay it directly to the government, and the government is paying for treatments. What they are proposing is making you pay insurance companies for insurance.

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

buggeroff — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:16:43 EST

@inchworm: Right, individual or household?

@bowlingfordollars: That's a good simile for it, though the public school system is hardly in condition to be a model for others. (Like with any other system, if one knows how to and is equipped with the means to, one can "work" it to their advantage. Which is why the petite is at one of my city's top public schools, instead of where she's meant to be by geographic assignment. Somebody's always going to be fucked, and somebody will always get out of being fucked, and somebody who was doomed to be fucked is always going to come up all Phoenix-style, while others still are left behind.)

I don't know. It's very interesting that as a country, we accept a distinct, unforgiving class system, yet we insist upon equality (except with the gay, natch).

buggeroff

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

sassymoniker — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:16:10 EST

@Political Party Girl: Yeah, my comment was about pregnant women though. Getting the childrens while they are still cooking, that's where it's at.

sassymoniker

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

ceejeemcbeegee — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:14:38 EST

@That_little_attention_whore: LOL! You think it, I say it, babe!

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

Political Party Girl — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:14:38 EST

Kimora Lee Simmons is wearing ONE MILLION DOLLARS worth of jewels in her hair. I wonder how many people that would insure???

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

Political Party Girl — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:13:20 EST

@Archetype: Only if he was out of the closet, LOL.

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

Political Party Girl — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:12:02 EST

@sassymoniker: I totes agree. Well said.

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

inchworm — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:11:29 EST

@sassymoniker:

EXACTLY

garnishing wages sounds so scary. like you'd be taking away ALL THE MONEYS THEY HAVE. but it's just a fucking fine, duders. a tax. because your lazy ass should be paying for healthcare once it's affordable. and if BO is saying it WILL be, and HRC is saying the same, then fuck. you should have to buy it to make the system work.

inchworm

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

Political Party Girl — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:10:28 EST

@sassymoniker: We do insure children. It's called S-CHIP. Actually, Hillary played a major part in creating S-CHIP. Although, that still leaves 9 million kids uninsured, which is why I think we need truly universal health coverage.

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

sassymoniker — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:10:06 EST

Can I ask, why is "garnishing wages" such a terrible, evil idea if the health care is made affordable? Isn't that just called taxing? Every one gets sick, everyone needs health care. If they don't pay for it all along, they end up costing everyone else a buttload later on. Refusing to pay for insurance is just being a bad citizen.

sassymoniker

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:08:13 EST

@bowlingfordollars: Why don't you run for president? Seriously.

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

Archetype — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:06:38 EST

@Political Party Girl: Uh, yes girl, he did. Could the dude be any gayer?

Archetype

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:06:02 EST

@sassymoniker: Actually, there was a program like that, which started in Mexico, called Progresa, which was welfare payments to mothers on conditions that their children are attending school, getting regular checkups, etc. It was found to be so successful, that not only are other Latin American countries now using similar models, but New York state is also starting a similar program. So, yeah, incentives work! And making sure babies and kids are healthy and educated saves money in the long run, too.

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

Archetype — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:04:44 EST

@bowlingfordollars: Much agreed - I popped away for awhile (hey, the Oscars pre-shows are starting!) and I was thinking the very same thing when I returned to read the comments.

Archetype

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

inchworm — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:04:34 EST

@Political Party Girl:

yes yes yes!

@Skinny Bone Jones:

both HRC and BO are planning to fund the healthcare reform by repealing bush's tax cuts for the upper income brackets. which is, i believe, over $200,000. anyone know for sure?

i mean, $200,000 is upper-middle, depending on the family size. but what they're proposing is raising the taxes for that income level and higher back to the pre-bush percentage.

inchworm

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

Political Party Girl — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:04:20 EST

Did Ryan Seacrest just tell me to "put on [my] jewelry and [my] Spanx?!?!?!" Um, Spanks, but no Spanx, Ryan. Seacrest OUT!

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

BowlingForDollars — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:03:51 EST

@coocoo: I see free healthcare inthe US as being like public schools. It's just readily available, and maybe all you need to do is make an appointment and walk into a health care facility with something like your social security card.

That's the basic, universal coverage. The next step up/level of coverage would be provided by employers, et al and they would take $$$ out of paychecks, like they do now.

BowlingForDollars

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

sassymoniker — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:03:17 EST

@That_little_attention_whore: Children AND pregnant women. CA provides prenatal care to all pregnant women, regardless of income/employment status. They also have "incentives" so that women take advantage of it. If you make the required number of prenatal appointments you get money for diapers, food and other vouchers. This saves the state money, because babies who start off healthy have a better shot of staying that way.
Also, the fact that they have found those incentives to be effective and that it saves them money in the end just goes to show you that yeah, you do have to kind of convince a LOT of people (particularly those of lower socio-economic status) to take good care of their bodies, which of course makes those people cost the state less in the long run. And that is why I think universal health care is not just idealistic and warm and fuzzy nice, but also very fiscally responsible.

sassymoniker

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:01:25 EST

@ceejeemcbeegee: I agree with everything you just said. (hence "get out of my mind" because you see, you are in it, and posting my very thoughts onto this board, or something to that effect)

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:59:48 EST

@brendastarlet: I almost suspect that, given the influence of the pharma and insurance lobbies in washington, as well as the ease of said lobbies' ability to manipulate knee-jerk fears of "socialism", a nationwide system covering only children may be as far as we can get in this country. That is, without a big fight...

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

buggeroff — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:59:08 EST

@inchworm: Define "wealthiest", please.

buggeroff

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

Political Party Girl — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:58:47 EST

@coocoo: Unfortunately, those 15-26 million people who would not be covered by Obama's plan can still get sick. Then they go to the ER, maybe are hospitalized... and who's paying for that? Who's being punished? The people who were responsible in the first place and bought insurance! Now their premiums will go up while those others live off the system for free. I'd rather punish those who didn't pay in the first place. And Hillary has mentioned grants and financial assistance for those who can't afford health insurance.

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

trisarahtops — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:58:07 EST

The repeated deuce throwing sealed it.

Thank god NBC is releasing this clip. I just wish it would stay up forever. I want my granddaughters to see it. My granddaughters Tinafey and Hillamy.

trisarahtops

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

inchworm — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:57:50 EST

@coocoo:

you fine them, or tax them, the same amount they would have paid in healthcare.

so they pay it, and either get the healthcare or don't. 99.9% will take it.

and, actually, since obama has spent so much time shredding the idea of mandates, if he builds it and they DON'T come, there is no recourse under his candidacy.

and they won't come. there's no incentive to sign up now when you can just wait until you're sick.

inchworm

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

ceejeemcbeegee — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:57:27 EST

@That_little_attention_whore: They way I understand Insurance to "work" is by having the maximum people paying premiums and a minimum of folks utilizing the services. But it also "works" because the types of coverage is varied: some people pay more and get more, others pay less and get less. That's why they try to weasel out of paying for preventive care and/or experimental treatments for certain folks.

So yeah, everyone paying insurance would guarantee income for the insurance companies. However they would also be required to give the same quality of care to everyone. And that's the last thing they want: breaking even or taking a loss on income. Insurance is a business first, health care provider second. They have shareholders to appease and investors pockets to line. And THAT's the root of the problem.

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

brendastarlet — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:54:42 EST

@That_little_attention_whore: agreed we should start with the kids, see how the system works, and then expand it. Still, if state by state is the only way to do it, that's better than a completely empty basket.

brendastarlet

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

coocoo — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:50:02 EST

BTW Bitch is Bitch not black Tina...

coocoo

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:49:52 EST

@ceejeemcbeegee: Get out of my mind!!!

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

coocoo — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:48:29 EST

@inchworm: So what are you going to do to make people buy health insurance? Put them in jail garner their wages? Making something mandatory is only as effective as the punitive measures you take to enforce it which is Obama's point. His is a more if you build it they will come. If it doesn't work out that way the laws can be changed. This is not a deal breaker.

coocoo

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:48:02 EST

@brendastarlet: I think states are definitely the way to make a lot of important reforms. However, some states, either because they simply do not have the revenues to implement these types of plans, or because their legislators have been bought and paid for too (hey, it happens..) or they're just plain dragging their asses, will be at a disadvantage. I realize states have a lot of power, but I think it sucks that someone doesn't get the same level of healthcare (or education, or whatever) because they live in Louisiana instead of California. I think there needs to be something across the board at the federal level - at least for children.

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

ceejeemcbeegee — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:47:31 EST

@Political Party Girl: ::blushing:: aww, shucks girl! Thanks! I'm not usually outnumbered but it's the weekend: I think my backup is off at an Oscar party. ;-)

I don't think Hill would make a worse Prez than Obama. But since I have a choice, I prefer Obama, mainly for his NAFTA stance, but also because he's willing to get out of Iraq NOW. Eff destabilization, eff massive chaos, just get the fuck out now. Iraq is Vietnam, and Vietnam is Iraq.

I just wish someone, ANYONE, would just be effin' real with me and admit, "We are in Iraq for the oil, pure and simple. That's why we don't give a shit about Darfur and turned our backs on Rwanda, because they ain't got shit we want but land, and we can just let them kill each other first then take over, less work for us, yay!" Sheesh.

When will this country learn from history, and stop training operatives (Al-Queda) or implanting political puppets (Sadaam Hussein) then act surprised when our dogs turn on us (Iraq/the Taliban)?

/rant over.

Like I said, to each his own, but Hill's not the candidate for me. But FTR, if she get's the nom, I'd rather have her than ANY Republican. Even liberal-ass McCain, whom I respect because he hates Bush as much as I do.

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

Political Party Girl — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:45:53 EST

@trescharmant: P.S. Hillary also wasn't, um, how do I put this... THE PRESIDENT in the 90's. I read somewhere (sorry, can't remember where, will cite it if I find it) that if she had a title, other than First Lady, it would have been something like "Special Counsel/Advisor to the President."

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

inchworm — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:45:14 EST

@brendastarlet:

i think that the national plan has a shot, because we are in healthcare crisis. i think they might just be happy that there's not a fight to get rid of them entirely.

the problem with state-based plans is money. some states are poorer than others. my poor WV would be fucked, yo.

inchworm

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

brendastarlet — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:40:23 EST

@inchworm: honestly? I think we need to look to the states and forget Congress. The health care lobby is so strong it doesn't matter if Obama or Clinton get elected, they'll smush a national plan like a bug. Whereas some of the states have had an easier time getting their plans passed.

brendastarlet

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

BowlingForDollars — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:40:14 EST

@inchworm: Sleep and teevee works for Bush. It just sucks for the rest of us.

And yeah, I think the coverage I descibed/you all confirmed would work well. I don't think our healthcare system is great, re: wait for doctors, procedures, etc. - it took me 2 days to get in to see an othropedic doctor after I had a car wreck that broke bones. (I did go to the ER first, this was follow up. Did I mention I had broken bones? )

So would a system I described work in the US? I think so, but all of the naysayers are probably being paid off by the insurance and pharmaceutical companies. Both of which are the biggest rackets going. They would try to seriously thwart any efforts to change what we have.

p.s. I love you fucking dykes. And I love it that we get to talk about something vapid on Jez in a couple of hours. You bitches better be back for the Oscar live blogging.

BowlingForDollars

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

buggeroff — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:39:46 EST

That's it. The slut vote never quite made it off the ground, but THIS BITCH VOTES t-shirts are going to be the it-item of summer.

buggeroff

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

brendastarlet — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:38:13 EST

@ceejeemcbeegee: they let the black men play the black women characters (Oprah among them) and that just seems so wrong. There have to be parts beyond sassy black women. What about Michelle, if Obama gets elected? Shouldn't somebody be playing Miss Tyra these days? And how about a Robin Roberts/Diane Sawyer take off?

brendastarlet

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

Jumptees — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:38:05 EST

Love that! Tina Fey is Hilarious.

Check out this new "Bitch is the new Black" t-shirt.

Jumptees

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:36:44 EST

@sassymoniker: *shakes fist* Damn you, California! Why did I leave again?

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

Political Party Girl — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:35:47 EST

@trescharmant: TWO EFFING YEARS! Out of EIGHT! Please stop implying that the 90's were some kind of Democratic free-for-all!!! (It's hardly charmant.)

Ok... Commencing deep breathing... Now.

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

sassymoniker — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:35:14 EST

@That_little_attention_whore: This is how crazy it is in California - my coworkers COMPLAIN about their $15 copays.

sassymoniker

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:35:05 EST

@That_little_attention_whore: I guess my generic birth control pills are pretty cheap (like $4 per pack) so that's one upside. I guess I shouldn't be all gloom-and-doom-y

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

inchworm — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:33:21 EST

i want to be a doctor in canada. but they don't have that many residencies, which makes things a bit harder.

inchworm

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:33:02 EST

@sassymoniker: My saving grace is the student health center, which is free (well, not counting the health fee, LOL) but, yeah, I wasn't going to fork out the money for a quick clinic visit when I was out of town.

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

inchworm — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:31:38 EST

@militia: @BadenBaden:

ha! too gay. and too slutty. but HRC is my girl allll the way.

@bowlingfordollars:

that totally makes sense. that's actually what i think works best. it's what's happening in canada and the UK (although there are kinks. in the UK right now, you can't technically use the government care AND, say, pay for an extra medication that isn't covered out of pocket). but most people do anyway, and occasionally someone gets called out. there's a lot of pressure to change that, so i think they will). but, in a perfect US, everyone would get care. and if you wanted fancy drugs or a fancy surgeon, you could get a private healtcare plan on top of the govn't one, or just pay out of pocket.

also, in the perfect US gay sluts could run for president, but i still wouldn't be one of them. i like sleep and teevee.

inchworm

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:31:26 EST

@bowlingfordollars: You know, a lot of people bag on the Canadian system (which is sort of like what you're describing) because of the problems with wait times and the disincentives for doctors, but, you know - my uncle's a doctor there, and he's living pretty well. And, despite the problems my family has had with the Canadian system, my parents are pretty sure they want to retire back to Canada, purely for the healthcare system. So I guess what I'm saying is that I agree with you.

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

sassymoniker — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:31:13 EST

@That_little_attention_whore: This makes me so sad. Sometimes I feel like going on a healthcare binge and just visiting the doctor like once a week while I've got this amazing coverage so that when I go back to school I can look back at this time fondly and think, "ah, to have a $15 copay."

sassymoniker

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:28:18 EST

@inchworm: I guess I'm just a big, cynical, old commie. Personally, I think the best way to pay for healthcare for everyone is to stop with this bullshit going on in Iraq that's costing us billions each year...

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

Political Party Girl — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:27:11 EST

@bowlingfordollars: Aw, thanks! For a while there, I kept thinking, Why can't we all just get along???

@Everyone: Kumbaya Pre-Oscar Campfire Sing-Along. My place. Be there. BYOGuitar/Tamborine/Ukulele/etc.

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

BadenBaden — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:26:57 EST

@militia: totally on board with that! :)

BadenBaden

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

BowlingForDollars — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:26:48 EST

@inchworm: I keep envisioning universal healthcare as something basic that covers everyone, and should be mandated to cover everyone, free of charge.

Then beyond that, employers would offer the next level of healthcare, which would provide for "luxury" (for lack of a better term) healthcare - say you want a particular surgeon to do a relatively routine procedure available at your local hospital, but this level of coverage lets you choose to have the said procedure at a hospital outside of your town. Does that make sense?

BowlingForDollars

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:26:03 EST

@sassymoniker: I am getting insured from my University, which has one of the biggest medical centers in the country, and the coverage is...crap. It is supposedly a global plan, and it's BC/BS, so there are many in-network places I could go. For instance, I can go to a walk-in clinic for a measly...$125. I'll just stick with my regular G.P., Dr. WebMD.

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

militia — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:25:34 EST

@inchworm: agreed. inchworm for president!

militia

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

drunkashell — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:25:03 EST

Pissed at Ralph Nader? Y0u bet your rosy red ass I'm still pissed at Ralph Nader. He just announced his candidacy and I'd like to strangle the man, although hopefully people have learned their lesson.

drunkashell

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

inchworm — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:24:58 EST

that's cool. i'm more optimistic, i guess. this is her BABY. she's spent her whole life working on healthcare. the time is right. she learned from her mistakes (and from MA's mistakes) and stood her ground where appropriate. and i have faith that she's going to get this thing through in good shape.

whereas BO's plan doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of being anything other than a minor reduction in costs.

inchworm

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

BadenBaden — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:24:42 EST

@ceejeemcbeegee: I'll pass on the smooches. Just trying to point out that dkos is certainly not considered a valid source, considering their tactics. So if you're using that to try to prove points, it probably won't work.

BadenBaden

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

Political Party Girl — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:22:49 EST

@ceejeemcbeegee: Maybe it's not well-known outside of the beltway, but HRC's accomplishments in the Senate are much more than just a list of passed legislation with her name on it. HRC is known for her bi-partisanship and incredible negotiation skills. She works with Republicans to compromise in order to get important legislation passed that otherwise wouldn't be. Because this all happens behind closed doors, she gets no formal credit.

In this age of extreme partisanship, that's the kind of president we need. Someone who will work with Republicans and reach across the proverbial aisle to find legislation that will be passed in Congress. My fear is that if we have a Dem president, we will get a Republican Congress in 2010. (Historically, that is what happens in mid-term elections.) I'm afraid that a President Obama would be stuck in a stand-still with opposition from Congress whereas a President Clinton could, in the immortal words of Tim Gunn, "make it work."

(Sorry to pick on you, ceejee! This is really aimed at Obama supporters in general, and I have to say you are doing an excellent job holding your own, especially since you appear to be outnumbered in this thread!)

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:22:00 EST

@inchworm: I understand where you're coming from. And I agree, you have to pool risk in order to make the system affordable. This is true. However, I don't like that insurance and pharm companies are basically going to pocket that. Plus, I think - just looking at the results in MA - that Clinton and Obama's plans IN PRACTICE will end up pretty similar, once they go through Congress.

I acknowledge that there are key difference between the two plans, but I don't think, in the grand scheme of things, they are as major as people in the Clinton campaign have played them up to be. In other words, I just don't think it is enough of a difference to get me to vote for Clinton in spite of all the other problems I see with her. Now, if she WERE pushing a Canadian-style, single-payer system for real, then I would be on board. So, are there differences? Yes. Are those differences enough to base my decision for voting on them? I don't believe so.

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

inchworm — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:19:20 EST

@ceejeemcbeegee: @That_little_attention_whore:

here's what i'm trying to say, ladies. HRC's plan ain't perfect. i want to tax the fuck out of the rich and go straight to not-for-profit single-payer healthcare. but that's not being offered. and it would be a much harder sell anyway.

so, we can't get exactly what we want. but HRC's plan is better. it just is. it covers more people. it lowers costs. i mean, i just think that because i can't get the PERFECT healthcare reform that that means that there's no difference between the remaining options. there is.

and, best of all, HRC's plan offers the chance to evolve to single-payer, and do it all sneaky like. but even if it DIDN'T, it's still better. it will save more money and more lives.

inchworm

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

sassymoniker — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:18:41 EST

@That_little_attention_whore: I'm not sure mandating that people buy health insurance means that they have to buy it from a specific company. My employer gives us a choice of like three or four HMO's and two or three PPO's. We have to pay for insurance, but we get to pick who we think gives the best coverage, etc. I think we could make health insurance mandatory and still keep that capitalistic force in tact. If health care providers aren't doing a good job, they'll lose business. This happened really recently when my employer dropped one of the HMO's and brought another on board because people didn't like what they were bringing to the table.

And yes, I live in the People's Republic of California and my benefits are awesome and I'm spoiled as hell. But don't worry, I'll be moving soon to go to law school and will rejoin the masses with shitty, unaffordable healthcare.

sassymoniker

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

warmaiden — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:17:20 EST

What gets me is that Clinton keeps arguing that she didn't say it would come out of people's wages. (Which she *did* indeed bring up as a possibility.) And this latest hissy fit over the mailers that went out is the last straw - they're actually factual (except for quoting the word "boon," which Newsday didn't retract until after the mailers had been sent). After that fiasco yesterday, I'm done with Clinton. Am waiting for August to see who the two runners will be and deal then.

warmaiden

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

inchworm — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:16:05 EST

it's reform because it covers EVERYONE. because it provides a way to SUSTAINABLE reduce costs. because it will ultimately and continuously reduce in more affordable healthcare than obama's plan will.

also, one of the biggest obstacles to single-payer plans is getting the dough to get everyone signed up. this is meant to be a stepping stone, people. by allowing people to stay on their own private insurance, and by subsidizing and mandating a government plan for everyone else, you can reduce those crazy costs that come from the drain that the uninsured put on the system. it makes it way easier to take the next step and offer up a single-payer plan.

inchworm

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

ceejeemcbeegee — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:15:19 EST

@bowlingfordollars: Thanks. I try to be civil, tho' some people test me...

xoxo

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

ceejeemcbeegee — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:13:20 EST

@BadenBaden: If you don't like the site then don't visit it. Please don't deign to dictate to me what links I can and cannot suggest. Smooches!

I think every site reserves the right to kick off whomever they please. Wish Jez would do the same to some of the trolls 'round these parts.

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

vasellina — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:13:17 EST

i fucking love them endlessly

vasellina

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:12:06 EST

@ceejeemcbeegee: True. As long as we're relying on insurance companies and HMOs for healthcare, there really isn't going to be a major change. I still don't see whether it is a big difference in people buying insurance though their employer or individually, or being mandated by the government to pay their money to the exact same companies. Wouldn't insurance companies love this, I mean, basically requiring people to pay for their services - whether consumers are paying it directly or if the government is subsidizing it. This is reform...how?

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

inchworm — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:11:52 EST

@ceejeemcbeegee:

dude, i'm sorry about your dad. that's really really terrible. and, believe me, i hate big pharm. i do.

but we're not being given a choice here between soemoen who abolishes for-profit healthcare and someone who doesn't. we're being given a choice to stay with the current system with no sustainable changes, no path AWAY at all, and someone who will insure everyone, creating a system that does reduce costs and allow for progress.

see what i mean? worst case scenario. HRCs plan doesn't move towards single-payer with private insurance as a second tier (which it IS designed to do, btw), and we get stuck for awhile with private insurers. at LEAST way more people will be covered. under obama, it's the same old shit, but with more people totally uninsured, and no way to keep down the costs. no way to keep those insurance costs down. not even a chance to more forward towards a big, bad, scary single-payer system.

inchworm

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

MilointheMeadow — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:10:44 EST

must say, seems to be a lot of venom between the Hill and Bama camps. not that it makes much difference now (my state finished its primary a while ago - went to Bama), but i still can't decide who to support. went to their campaign websites, and besides the fact that Obama mentioned "faith" more - which really didn't help his case for me - it looks like the differences are pretty marginal.

and maybe Nader could just sit this one out for once?

MilointheMeadow

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

ceejeemcbeegee — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:07:28 EST

@inchworm: I can see how that would help greatly. But at the root of all this --and I have had first-hand experience with this-- is the pharma and insurance being profits-focused rather than people-focused.

I know FOR A FACT that if my dad had been admitted to the hospital under his PPO as he should have been by law rather than under his secondary & tertiary HMO and Medicare A&B, he would still have a left foot and toes on the right foot. Instead, Blue Shit... I mean...Blue Shield and Good Samaritan Hospital (irony!) treated him like a second-class citizen, never gave him antiboitics for his gangrene, and kicked him out the hospital because the floor had a "time limit". I swear, slaves on the plantation got better treatment that my pops.

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

sassymoniker — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:06:58 EST

Can I just say, that all of this actual, substantive debate about the ISSUES that's happening here is awesome.
I don't think Fey's monologue was directed at any of the Obama supporters commenting here. The Obama jezzies all seem to have reasoned arguments supporting their claims, and it's great that other jezzies feel free to respond to them with their own reasoned arguments.
But I do think Fey's comments were spot on. I have definitely heard from "educated" "intelligent" people the crap about Hillary "having her turn already" or she can't "control her husband," and yes, that she is just a big ole bitch (that last one from my best gay). And I think we can all agree that that sort of nonsense is prevalent, misogynistic in nature and absurd, no matter who we plan to vote for.

sassymoniker

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

inchworm — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:06:15 EST

i work with patients every day. private insurance doesn't want to pay for SOME THINGS. usually newer, more expensive, fancier things with few side effects or less of a proven track record. but it definitely pays for preventative meds.

think about it this way. you are an insurance company, and you've already given someone insurance. and their doctor discovers they ahve diabetes or high cholesterol. there is no WAY you would deny covering the appropriate meds, because, since you're already insuring them, it's cheaper for you to give them the preventative care then to wait for them to decompensate to heart attacks and gangrene and then have to pay for that.

the cost comes when people without insurance use the ER as primary care, or don't get any primary care at all and just come in with an MI. and then the government eats the cost.

inchworm

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

BadenBaden — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:05:31 EST

@ceejeemcbeegee: how about we DON'T link to dailykos from here, considering dkos actually kicked off all their HRC supporters a few months ago? Yeah, on purpose. Because the Obamaphiles were attacking every pro-Hillary post and clogging the servers. So sorry, but DKos doesn't count as proof of anything.

BadenBaden

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

BowlingForDollars — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:02:50 EST

@Political Party Girl: @ceejeemcbeegee: @inchworm: Whatever the issues are, it's very pleasant to see you ladies discussing and agreeing and disagreeing in a civil manner. Much better than what we've seen on Jezebel of late. Just wanted to say so.

BowlingForDollars

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

inchworm — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:02:39 EST

also, someone, i think lymed, once suggested that these plans should be opt-out. that'd be awesome, because paperwork is a huge deterrent for many people.

we should write letters to encourage that.

inchworm

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:01:50 EST

@inchworm: I think you're looking at two different problems here (re: insurance)

One of these is the lack of preventative care, and that is based on the current model of system we have (ie people buying insurance, insurance not wanting to pay for preventative treatments) This is why so many people have hypertension, diabetes, obesity, other problems which take time to develop: there is no intervention at an early stage. I think this is a problem that universal coverage won't change per se. It requires a fundamental shift in priorities for the entire healthcare industry. Obviously, insurance companies are doing what they do because they find it to be most profitable. If we're going to be relying on private insurers, they will always be operating based on a profit motive, and so I think it will be a problem as long as we continue as long as they're in business.

The other is the issue of access to coverage, which I wrote about in my earlier post.

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

inchworm — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:01:21 EST

her plan will be better funded, so the costs will be reduced to the point that people won't be required to pay more than they can afford. Mass did this very loosely. it was easy to opt out, and they didn't have enough funding to reduce costs appropriately.

from what i understand, if you refuse healthcare you will be fined the amount that you would have paid for healthcare any way (under HRC's plan). so you may as well take the healthcare. and her subsidies will make costs minimal for lower income people. look, no one's going to go hungry because they have to pay a totally reasonable about for health insurance. it isn't like that.

under obama's plan, people won't opt in because, even though they CAN afford it, they won't feel like they need to. because he's trying to abolish pre-existing condition bias, so there is NO REASON AT ALL not to enroll until you're sick. like, it almost makes it worse. why dish out even a little cash now when you can just wait until something goes wrong and pay the same amount then? people will free-load the fuck out of that. and not poor people, just people who think that they're healthy and have no idea that their cholesterol is off the charts. or people who are too busy. it's a bad, bad idea. it will be very, very expensive.

i'm a tax and spend liberal too. i would prefer single payer by FAR. but there will be a HUGE difference between the two plans. obama's OWN ADVISERS have admitted that the number uninsured under him will be much, much bigger. it will make a huge difference.

inchworm

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

trescharmant — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:01:08 EST

@Political Party Girl: You don't remember Bill's "two for the price of one"? After they lost Congress, she took a much lower profile.
@That_little_attention_whore: I am saying that the Senate plays to Clinton's strengths, but that she would be a disaster as President, because her worst characteristics would bring her, and the country down.

trescharmant

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

Political Party Girl — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:00:36 EST

@ceejeemcbeegee: Yeah, like I said, I don't completely disagree with your argument. Like, there aren't any male celebs to mock? Puh-lease.

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

ceejeemcbeegee — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 16:56:33 EST

@Political Party Girl: I see your point. You are right, they aren't the best role models. But I think we also have to remember that Fey is not just an intelligent woman but also an entertainer, and jabbing at celebs is her bread and butter. Her job is to poke fun. I just struck me as a bit un-femme of her, that's all.

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

Political Party Girl — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 16:55:47 EST

@trescharmant: What? Who says HRC was co-pres. from 92-94? Did she "resign" after that? I don't understand what you're saying.

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

That_little_attention_whore — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 16:55:34 EST

@trescharmant: Actually, I almost feel like Clinton's attention to policy detail is better suited for the Senate. Also, I think she would kick ass as majority leader. But that is a different skill set than for president...

That_little_attention_whore

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

inchworm — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 16:54:57 EST

@ceejeemcbeegee:

i see what you're saying, and i agree in part, but universal coverage will help.

see, it's going require more money at first, to get things rolling and get everyone covered. but once everyone IS covered, then you WILL have a massive reduction in healthcare costs. for instance, the hospital that i rotate at in brooklyn is HUGE, and in a very poor neighborhood. most people do not have insurance. so they have untreated diabetes or hypertension, and they only show up in the ER when they ahve a heart attack. or realize that their foot is literally rotting off. or they go blind. and THEN the state ends up paying for crazy expensive therapy/surgery for heart attacks, limb amputation, etc. all of this when, if these people had healthcare from the get-go, it would have been WAY WAY cheaper to cover the cost of their insulin or their ACE-inhibitors or Beta blockers or whatever.

so it will save tons of money.

and her plan does rely heavily on insurance reform. which means that these companies will have to state more simply what they wil and will not cover. she is also mandating electronic records, which will reduce costs and prevent people from getting fucked over by having to jump through coverage hoops.

and yes, people pay for insurance out of work, but they pay a lot for it. and if you've ever been without insurance and developed a pre-existing condition, you're screwed. and people who don't work for companies are even worse off.

she and obama are both proposing to make healthcare cheaper. but under his plans, he will raise taxes on the wealthiest for a little spending burst that will reduce premiums. and that's where it will end. because unless you insure EVERYONE, there will be no SUSTAINABLE reduction in costs.

she will raises taxes to reduce costs and then mandate coverage. and then, once everyone is in and there aren't people draining the system with very expensive end-state conditions, more money will flow back into it to keep costs low.

inchworm

Tina Fey On SNL: "Bitch Is The New Black"

Political Party Girl — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 16:54:46 EST

Sorry if someone has already said this (can't find my glasses.) But Obama's health insurance plan leaves 15 to 26 MILLION people uninsured according to the non-partisan factcheck.org whereas HRC's plan would, at the very most, leave only 1 million people uninsured, and those people would be the ones who refuse to buy health coverage.