luckykat

luckykat

1. Ms. Nabisco really dislikes McCain's awkward arm motions. When I explained the whole "can't raise his arms above his shoulders" thing she said then he should stop trying, goddammit, except she doesn't really swear.

2. I would really like to offer my shoulder to A. Jolie to cry on for having her father out there campaigning for McCain. Really, just my shoulder.

Nabisco

graham_but_not_a_cracker

ilovejohnnythunders

ilovejohnnythunders

JapaneseCigaretteCase

SanFranLefty

braak

rose0red

The sad thing is, I kind of like the guy, and I definitley respect him. Or I think I still do, but when he things like "setting a date for withdrawl from Iraq is waving the white flag of surrender," and "we'll be there a hundred years if we have to," my admiration dims a little.

rose0red

rose0red

Man, listening to Zero 7 when you're getting sick makes you really trippy, even without OTC meds.

redmanlaw

SanFranLefty

perphiction

[www.santafenewmexican.com]
.

"Despite our high personal regard for Sen. McCain, we think it will take Democratic leadership to undo past wrongs, recover the reputation of our globally humiliated country and restore economic and social justice.

But the same operatives who fooled our nation not once, but twice, into Bush-Cheney already are plotting another puppet regime controlled by corporate scoundrels. They'd be ecstatic at the prospect of Democrats floating a Clinton co-presidency, and they've been rubbing their hands with glee during recent weeks as the former president mounted the stage on behalf of his wife, one of the two remaining candidates."

This is the president who unnecessarily lied about an affair with a White House intern; who fecklessly fired off missiles to distract the nation from his all-too-human failings; who, as we noted at the time, should have resigned, or should have been impeached - and was.

redmanlaw

Moimeme

I guess height doesn't matter if you're a retarded faux-Texan.

braak

rose0red

Piranha426

warmaiden

SinisterRouge

braak

SinisterRouge

braak

SinisterRouge

vanishingirl

The Infopornographer

vanishingirl

SinisterRouge

morbatron

SinisterRouge

braak

rsr26

SinisterRouge

MegSpencer

A Democrat can win those states, but only if the Republicans stay home. A Clinton candidacy virtually ensures that won't be the case.

The Infopornographer

marin79

whyknot

I actually think we will be watching Clinton a lot more - which is a good thing. She will get a lot of critism and outrage from the netroots if she doesn't follow through with her campaign promises. I fear they will let shit slide w/Obama more.

I am gonna vote for him & if he wins I be all over his ass making sure he lives up to my 'hopes'.

Sporbit

There is a difference between abusing the office of the Presidency and lying about it...see: Watergate, Iran-Contra, Cheney's deleted emails regarding the Federal Prosecutors being fired and using legalese to keep quiet a personal, embarrassing matter in the face of a partisian witch-hunt.

And Clinton grew up in poverty, as did Carter and Nixon. Obama certainly isn't wealthy. Hillary was middle-class. You certaintly don't have to be a Bush or a Kennedy to run (and win) the Presidency.

rachystyle

MegSpencer

vanishingirl

SinisterRouge

marin79

MegSpencer

And with that, I'm off to pack for sunny Florida. Fuck all this Colorado snow shit.

Go Like Hell Machine

Obama has made his whole campaign about how he is NOT a "politician like the rest of them" and he has been pretty successful.

That logic is terrible, if you run for office you are a politician which apparently automatically means you are untrustworthy and a liar.

Obama has a pretty clean record. I think he is pretty legit.

rachystyle

braak

SinisterRouge

@whyknot: You're preaching to the choir on this one; I've read that already and am voting Obama because exactly of this issue. However, I also think that he's a politician as much as any of the rest of them, which means he can believe one thing and at the same time talk out of his ass whatever's going to get him the most votes. I do not think he would have voted for the war, but who knows what politicians will do.

MegSpencer

Check Mate.

rachystyle

whyknot

nikaoh

BettyBoopster

Of course, Arnie isn't a Democrat, yet, and he could stand to hi-jack a couple more liberal ideas. So he's not off the hook.

braak

pop locking!

SarahMC

whyknot

What I mean is, I don't approve of Hillary's hawkishness. I think that was a bad choice.

What I also mean is, there are folks who criticize Obama for saying he was an outspoken opponent of the war when his opinion, essentially, didn't matter, because he couldn't vote on it.

And what I thirdly mean is, while I don't give Obama a white mark for voting against the war, I certainly do give Hillary a black mark for voting in favor of it.

SO BRAAK OFF!

braak

BettyBoopster

Voted present, maybe, but not voted for it. (sorry, had to snicker.)

Go Like Hell Machine

vanishingirl

warmaiden

vanishingirl

MegSpencer

SinisterRouge

SarahMC

BettyBoopster

SarahMC

nikaoh

SinisterRouge

MegSpencer

SarahMC

@Rachstyle: I'd love to think that politicians have character, and I suppose some of them do, but I stand by my assertion that successful politicians are pretty low, character wise, especially these days. I hate to sound so cynical but I have seen elected officials so the most outrageous things, ridiculous things, and shameful things, and I'm pretty convinced that not only do most of them lack character, they lack a very soul. So I keep that in mind when I cast a vote.

vanishingirl

BettyBoopster

nikaoh

braak

SarahMC

whyknot

MegSpencer

The Infopornographer

anyway yeah, even liz lemon said in the next election there is an 80% chance she would tell all her friends she was voting for barack obama and secretly vote for mccain instead.

southbeachriot

nikaoh

katastic

I've seen that number floating around for a while - I suspect it may have changed. In any case, I don't trust polls. Polls lie. Election season polls lie even worse. When candidates are winning based on tenths of a percent, a 3-4% margin of error is huge. Although speaking of polls, to all the folks talking about how HRC can't win the mid-west, she's totally ahead in MN right now. Juuuuuust saying!

MegSpencer

Her "changing her mind" on Iraq strikes me as too little, too late. The fact is, she had all the relevant and necessary information before her vote to engage in Iraq and she chose to ignore/not bother to read it. And people have died. We all sit and complain about this being "Bush's War" but Congress is just as culpable as the President. Did Bush lie, probably, but truthful, precise information was out there had ANY Senator or Representative wanted to look at it. It was just more politically convenient at the time. This disgusts me.

That to me says more about her character than the possibility that she may get us involved in future conflicts. But I absolutely see your point.

rachystyle

braak

BettyBoopster

MegSpencer

I mean that still leaves 55% that would consider it.

katastic

rachystyle

This was a poor choice.

braak

nikaoh

BettyBoopster

There's also a number of people who dislike her for her health care stances during Bill's presidency, and her perceived tone-deafness to what people actually thought. It doesn't matter that you're right if you give the impression that you don't care what anyone else thinks. Chalk this up to the stigma of socialism, chalk it up to inherent bias in the coverage, chalk it up to bad feelings toward Bill at the time, chalk it up to people think Hillary was too "uppity" or whatever dumb shit people think, but they DO think it and they don't forget it.

Listen, I really don't have too many problems with Hillary Clinton politically. There are some sticking points that lead me to Obama over her, but I'd vote for her over any of the Republican nominees.

But I've seen a number of commenters really underestimate and dismiss the sentiment of the country outside of the Northeast, and I think this is an absolutely fatal strategy.

Go Like Hell Machine

personally, i also don't count the years she sat next to Bill while he was Talking to other world leaders as 'experience.' I'm just sick of politician resume-padding, I'm sick of nothing getting done, and I'm sick of being disgusted with my politicians. the thing is, so are a whole lot of other people, and they see Hillary as an established player who has taken advantage of the current political system - why should she change it?

not knocking anyone else's views, just saying. Hell, as long as we're all voting, I'm happy. But as a country, after the debacle of the past 8 years, I think we need something more than Hillary has to offer.

warmaiden

katastic

MegSpencer

nikaoh

Hillary voted to use force in Iraq. That's that for me. If you are against the war, then how can you consider voting for a candidate who voted us there, w/o reading the accompanying National Intelligence Reports beforehand? If it is gonna be about character, that to me displays an amazing amount of flippancy with American lives and dollars.

rachystyle

braak

SinisterRouge

MegSpencer

@SarahMC: Exactly. And if she does bring stuff like that up, people will a) act like they'd never said such a thing and just disagree with her "policies" and b) accuse her of being a whiner who can't play with the big boys.

TruculentandUnreliable

BettyBoopster

SinisterRouge

warmaiden

SarahMC

This is Hill's problem- she can never win. Everything she does, people hate her for; I think a lot of it is misogyny, to be honest. And she gets saddled with a LOT of crap for Bill, but again- what can she do about it? He's one of her greatest strengths and one of her greatest liabilities.

katastic

MegSpencer

I'm just sympathizing with you, right now, because nothing irks me more than seeing a problem that I can't just fix.

braak

I really wasn't trying to turn this into a popularity contest about Moe.

I am absolutely a character voter. But the best way to discern character in a political contest is through the policies candidates champion and the causes which they are willing to devote political capital to or by standing up for things that are unpopular and aggressively working to get them in the mainstream. I would say Al Gore's tireless defense of the environment going back to the 1980's is the best example of this.

I would say based on her record, Hillary is for many of us an ideal candidate. But Moe is muddying the debate by talking about vague shit that doesn't even make great sense. Pandering huh? Polling? Even if her reason was, I met Hillary once and she didn't shake my hand, it would be better than weird, blind hatred disseminating here.

rachystyle

Here's the thing; as others have mentioned, Hillary is able to win over even some conversatives in the NE. However, she's able to alienate and anger even moderates in the Midwest and the south. And there are big voting blocks of all stripes in the South and Midwest.

And, though it's maybe not completely fair to associate her husband's policies with her own (though, I frankly have no doubt that she aligns with them) there are a number of substantial issues to be angry with Bill Clinton for. NAFTA alone is reason enough for me to vote for Obama in the primary, though I'll begrudgingly vote for her in the general election if she takes the candidacy.

Go Like Hell Machine

AthertonMerriweather

but truly the biggest change/impact we can have on our government is in the Congress. We need to get the Bush-dog Dems OUT! And support as many truly progressive, young, anti-incumbant Dems as possible.

I know it takes a shitload of info (hello internets) and isn't as exciting as the Presidential race - but it could make a HUGE difference.

So yeah, keep stumping for your Prez candidate & be scared of McCain (supposingly his temper is so bad, he has to write apology notes in the car leaving meetings....plus with a Huckabee VP be very, very scared)

BUT don't disengage after the primary or election. Even if McCain wins we can make huge long term gains by electing good, progressive people to our Congress.

We need to make talking politics a staple of our lives, we need to talk issues more & inform as many people as possible.

Sporbit

braak

BettyBoopster

SarahMC

TruculentandUnreliable

Recently, I've discovered that I'm an economic centrist. I was reading about the 91% upper-tax-bracket taxation after WWII and I was like, "Whoah. Even I think that's too high."

The problem that's being made apparent to me is that GOP economic policy (that is: cut taxes, give subsidies, cut taxes, give subsidies, "deficits don't matter") not only isn't really conservative, it's also completely insane.

Which is all to the point of, I'm still voting Democrat, because the Democrates are relatively socially liberal, and economically they're all moderates.

braak

TruculentandUnreliable

Although I do think a lot of the election coverage in general has been really shitty, I would much rather see Moe blogging about HRC's character than about her clothes and makeup choices, which is what a lot of news agencies have devolved to. To a certain extent character IS really important. Stuff comes up that past voting records don't account for, and trying to guess at a candidate's character gives an idea of what they might do in those circumstances. Are they aggressive, or intellectual? Do they engage in a lot of posturing and pissing contests, or do they try and find a compromise?

MegSpencer

marin79

Because I am ornery, and also contrary.

braak

TruculentandUnreliable

katastic

I was just really wondering. I was reading some comments on people's profiles and it seemed as if she wasn't generally liked.

I have no opinion. I don't need to be best friends with my blogs.

rachystyle

nikaoh

SinisterRouge

I think most of us are okay with people not sharing our opinions.

AthertonMerriweather

nikaoh

warmaiden

BettyBoopster

I ususally stay away from Crappy Hour. All of this is Noted.

rachystyle

braak

Sometimes, you have to try and blow everybody's mind with new and wild ideas. Sometimes, you have to acclimate them slowly.

Frankly, I'm less concerned about getting a female president than I am in resolving the more pervasive, low-level inequalities against women--something that, theoretically, a liberal of any gender could do.

braak

SinisterRouge