<![CDATA[ - Jezebel Comments]]> <![CDATA[ - Jezebel Comments]]> <![CDATA[]]> @olivia2.0: Vote Republican. Like you, they also seem completely unaware that people (including women) actually exist outside the US's borders.

Any moron that doesn't understand that whoever takes over the Presidency will have a direct impact on just about every country in the West, if not around the world, needs to go back to school and get a clue.

You choose a President because they are the right person to lead the country. Not because they're a woman. Not because they're African American. Not because they're White.

And do us all a favor, keep your narrow-minded "input' to yourself, will you please?

olias

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @gticlutchburn: I think she is saying that women feel pressure to NOT support Hillary, because Hillary is a woman and they are afraid of being accused of supporting her JUST because she is a woman.
But perhaps you're right; I think it's a combination of the 2.

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA[]]> Okay I'm not the first to say this but it seems some are forgetting the point here: no one is saying vote for hillary because she has a vagina and if not then you aren't a feminist. Feminism, among many other things, is an analysis--in this case of media. It IS feminist (no matter who you end up voting for) to pay attention the way in which Hillary is portrayed in the media according to gender stereotypes of femininity--all the comments on the outfits, the crying, etc. Isn't that what we are doing here?

marmite

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @SarahMC: Unless there is some hidden meaning here I don't understand, Hahn says women should vote for Hillary just for being a woman.

"girls of this generation, who consider it "lame" to align themselves with a woman candidate on the sole ground of sisterhood"

To me that seems like she is criticizing girls who wouldn't cast their vote solely based on sex.

gticlutchburn

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @persephone: Sorry, no. Right now, it's WOMEN who are stomped all over, across the globe. It's women who have fewer rights and women who are harmed most by gender stereotypes. Women are given all the responsibility and none of the authority in this society. It's called feminism for a reason. If some people can't get behind feminism because it doesn't focus primarily on men, they'd never be feminists anyway - no matter what the name.

Second, there already IS a humanism.

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @gticlutchburn: voting for Hillary JUST because she is a woman goes completely against what feminism stands for

Who is advocating doing such a thing?

*crickets*

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA[]]> How 'bout we toss off the gender specifics and co-opt an archaic movement?

hu·man·ist - noun
1. a person having a strong interest in or concern for human welfare, values, and dignity.

With a definition like that, we might even win the abortion argument.

persephone

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @olivia2.0: A piss off, by the way. Xenophobia is not something you should be flaunting.

Trixie from Toronto

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @SarahMC: Yes *I* am. But the whole tenor of this thread really pissed me off. An intelligent woman writes a column that some of us don't agree with, and one person in particular calls her a "stupid entitled cunt."

Now that's feminism!

Jesus.

Trixie from Toronto

]]> <![CDATA[]]> Look. I'm no woman, and no feminist either. But it seems to me that voting for Hillary JUST because she is a woman goes completely against what feminism stands for. Isn't it about true equality, and judging individuals based on merit and not sex? Not voting for Clinton because you don't like her seems pretty feminist to me.

gticlutchburn

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @olivia2.0: I'm Canadian and I think I have a right to comment on this because me and my country are hugely affected by whoever becomes President. Our countries are closely linked; on September 11 many planes were diverted to Canada and a lot of displaced Americans were sheltered here. Oh, and you're welcome. However, what most white Canadians know about their own black people plus $1 would leave you with $1. Ms Thing should to talking about what she knows; well-off white women. Like Hilary.

topsy

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @the.bleach: You don't say how old your friend was (not sure why the boyfriend's age is important but not hers) but the fact that she doesn't know doesn't mean she doesn't care, just that she's ignorant. Perhaps you should have answered her question and helped her along.

airren

]]> <![CDATA[]]> This woman is an idiot because, there is a HUGE difference between how women and black Americans view their communities. Try reading some Toni Morison essay lady, they spell it out pretty clearly. And I'm sorry, aren't you CANADIAN??? Isn't this an AMERICAN issue? You are not American, and so, I don't really think you have much to input on the issue. Please shut up now.

olivia2.0

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @JennaW: why can't it be taught by men? I know that this depends heavily on the way it is done, but generally speaking, why should I expect my girlfriend to do that part of the education?

ghost

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @topsy: Gotcha. Luckily that is changing. All the feminists I read are really inclusive of people of all races, and are sure to make it clear that the white women's experience(s) are not the DEFAULT women's experience(s) - that black women (and other WOC) have different perspectives and POVs and are just as valuable as anyone else. In fact, many of the feminists I admire ARE WOCs.

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @SarahMC: You're right. I have no quarrel with the concept of feminism, just the so-called feminist movement.

topsy

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @Hez: Amen. She should stick to her usual beat, which is chronicling the life and purchases of a wealthy and privileged Toronto matron, ie. herself. Yawn.

emmablack

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @topsy: I agree with you for the most part but just because some feminiSTS are flawed does not mean feminism as a concept actually advocates any of that white-centric shit.

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @stoprobbers: You are a feminist. Own it.

dayglo

]]> <![CDATA[]]> Isn't it true, though, that young women tend to be more conservative, tend to NOT identify as feminists, because they are still niave enough to believe that the patriarchy will reward them?

That will probably be true until the end of time. It is not a problem unique to this generation.

Give these younguns a few years in corporate america, they'll come around.

dayglo

]]> <![CDATA[]]> I'm a child of the 70s and have always considered myself a feminist. But as a black woman I don't have much patience for 'feminism' because it has never really cared about women of colour. In my opinion, 'feminism' is a bunch of well off white women whining about how unfair life is while darker skinned women clean their houses and raise their kids. Yes, I know that's a gross oversimplification and I'm being hugely unfair but that's how I see it. Gloria Steinem and her ilk have enjoyed the privileges of being white, even while protesting against the white male hierarchy. Yet they have never had a problem joining with those same white men to throw their darker skinned sisters under the bus in order to preserve their own rights. I think it's great that this Hilary/Obama debate is exposing the old baby-boom 'feminists' for the hypocrites they really are. This probably makes me a traitor to my generation since technically I am a baby-boomer (born in the early sixties) but since I've always been too young (and too black) to count as a real boomer, I generally find them as annoying as everybody else does

topsy

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @SarahMC: Yes, that's it. But expecting schools to educate your children about a radical movement is not that different from saying we don't need feminism. Feminism is taught in the home by strong women (or developed in reaction to the home in some cases), not by (ahem) "the man."

The Pankhursts' activism was very much a family affair. We shouldn't opt out on informing out kids about things that matter to us, because how else are we going to be sure they hear about these things?

JennaW

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @stoprobbers: What you just described is pretty much the opposite of feminism. Looking at people as *women* and *men* rather than people is what feminism OPPOSES. Where are you getting your info on feminism?

I feel that feminismm, by making us look at everything through the prism of being a woman (I know we do that anyway, but we don't do it so consciously), stifles any equality I have...

The world looks at everything through a prism of gender. That is what feminism is up against.

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @ThaKadinskyPapers: Yeah, "knowing who Steinem is" is not a very good barameter of whether one is a feminist or not. Feminism does not mean "being familiar with 2nd wave activists." It's a philosophy of life. Though it is a philosophy people might come around to if they were EDUCATED about it.

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @Trixie from Toronto: Oops, should have read the whole thing.

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @Trixie from Toronto: Well are *you* teaching your daughter about that stuff?

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @mariamariamaria: But just to be a counterpoint, maybe that simplified definition is where things went wrong for feminism. There's hardly an educated adult that thinks women and men shouldn't be treated reasonably equally, although a percentage of people still maintain their particular weird hang-up about the military or abortion or their particular notion of whatever job they happen to perform.

Maybe when feminism tried to lose its negative image, it sort of lost its fight and its feistiness and stopped making sense?

the.bleach

]]> <![CDATA[]]> AAAAAAAAAAAAARGH

katastic

]]> <![CDATA[]]> The other day a friend (female) who supposedly is "very into goddess worship" whatever that means (but, I thought, something sort of eco-feministy) asked me in front of her 40-something boyfriend who Gloria Steinem was. I was just like, sorry, we can't be friends until you can answer that question. Do a book report and get back to me.

But I guess people just don't care anymore....

the.bleach

]]> <![CDATA[]]> I think it's possible for young girls to find feminist role models now, they just have to look for them. The movement has changed - how many feminist websites are there out there? I, for one, frequent Feministing and Feministe, as well as a lot of other political blogs with strong feminist writers. While I agree that not all young girls are actively searching these places out, you can't paint everyone with the same brush the way von Hahn does. I know plenty of young feminists. I am one. And I will say that to anyone who listens.

dancingteacups

]]> <![CDATA[]]> Isn't KAren von Hahn a baroness?

Det. Philangie

]]> <![CDATA[]]> Ms. Magazine? Steinham? Senator Clinton? Why not berate us for not listening to Helen Reddy records? That's a generation gap, not a feminism gap.

Kathygnome

]]> <![CDATA[]]> Huh. I mean I think we've said this here about 1000 times...but again, no needs to vote for anyone else because of their genitalia. Duh. But you know what? Just the same way one poster on the Obama post-SC thread said that she chose Obama because he was Black and HRC and he hold similar positions, she made the emotional choice. And rightly so, none of us ripped into her for it. Because, it's completely fair.  She wants to break that ceiling.  Completely understandble. Why are we so quick to say "Women that support HRC because she's a woman are retards." We dared not say that to that poster that said she voted for Obama because he was Black. We're so quick to judge and rip on each other if it's women voting for Hillary simply because she's a woman.  So what? I mean, I'm  certainly not voting for her for that reason.  But if another woman feels like she can lift up one of her own? Then good. 


Also, young women today have NO clue about feminism.  You think that because your law firm has ladies in it everything's all good? And I love the quick way we tear down women that came before us like Steinem as out of touch and playing to the baby boomers. Yeah, she's from another generation. It doesn't make what she did in her life somehow irrelevant.  Also, it's a sad sad sad commentary on our current generation that we have absolutely no one similar to take her place or to be a good role model to young women. And Margaret Cho, a comedian, doesn't count y'all.

 

All you need to is look around at the overt sexism in our schools, our goverment, OUR MEDIA, and everyfuckingwhere else for proof that women are not nearly closer to being seen as equal to the boys. NOT NEARLY.  You may be in your own mind, but certainly not in society's.

SinisterRouge

]]> <![CDATA[]]> Huh. I mean I think we've said this here about 1000 times...but again, no needs to vote for anyone else because of their genitalia. Duh. But you know what? Just the same way one poster on the Obama post-SC thread said that she chose Obama because he was Black and HRC and he hold similar positions, she made the emotional choice. And rightly so, none of us ripped into her for it. Because, it's completely fair.  She wants to break that ceiling.  Completely understandble. Why are we so quick to say "Women that support HRC because she's a woman are retards." We dared not say that to that poster that said she voted for Obama because he was Black. We're so quick to judge and rip on each other if it's women voting for Hillary simply because she's a woman.  So what? I mean, <I> I'm </I> certainly not voting for her for that reason.  But if another woman feels like she can lift up one of her own? Then good. 


Also, young women today have NO clue about feminism.  You think that because your law firm has ladies in it everything's all good? And I love the quick way we tear down women that came before us like Steinem as out of touch and playing to the baby boomers. Yeah, she's from another generation. It doesn't make what she did in her life somehow irrelevant.  Also, it's a sad sad sad commentary on our current generation that we have absolutely no one similar to take her place or to be a good role model to young women. And Margaret Cho, a comedian, doesn't count y'all.

 

All you need to is look around at the overt sexism in our schools, our goverment, OUR MEDIA, and everyfuckingwhere else for proof that women are not nearly closer to being seen as equal to the boys. NOT NEARLY.  You may be in your own mind, but certainly not in society's.

SinisterRouge

]]> <![CDATA[]]> The fact that like-minded women are not automatically voting for Hillary illustrates the triumph of feminism. A candidate is being judged on her merits - fancy that.

Ick - I fucking hate the whole "I'm not a feminist" bullshit. There ain't much that gets my panties in a wad but this totally does. If you believe that a woman has the same rights as a man then you are a feminist. End of story.

mariamariamaria

]]> <![CDATA[]]> I agree that a lot of girls and young women seem to be woefully unaware of the history of women's oppression and seem to believe that "now women are equal, so we don't need feminism!" But KVH doesn't leave a lot of room for a spectrum of feminisms, including those which don't buy into the myth of universal sisterhood and who don't take into account intersecting oppressions such as race, class, sexuality, ability, etc. along with gender.

hurdygurdygirl

]]> <![CDATA[]]> Part of the generation gap seems to be this belief that we should stand behind other women just because they are women instead of standing behind other women because of what they have achieved or what they stand for. I imagine that back in the days when our moms and grandmas were fighting for what we see as our rights to choose, they didn't have a choice...the awesome thing is that we CAN choose who we think is best, with the confidence that if a woman doesn't win this time, she will in the future. That's a pretty awesome evolution IMO.

chicklit

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @boingo82: ha! good "if"

merci

]]> <![CDATA[]]> I'm still confused as to when feminism starting preaching superiority over equality. I mean isn't the superiority mind set kind of what gets a particular group into trouble in the first place? And I'm pretty sure femnazism (the new form of man hating, superiority spouting,conservatism) is what led to this backlash from my generation. Back in college I found myself constantly being forced to define feminism and explain to the other girls it was "okay" to call yourself a feminist.

Voting for ANYONE because of what sits between their legs is entirely silly. You can't have a double standard in voting and then preach against it elsewhere.

Frankly I blame it on the third movement and folks like Alice Walker's daughter. (And Alice Walker herself. Her book on genital mutilation was awful.)

maggiemerc

]]> <![CDATA[]]> I wouldn't vote for Ann Coulter if she had a vagina, and the same holds true for Hillary.

boingo82

]]> <![CDATA[]]> The mere possession of a vagina isn't a bond. But I wish to god I'd hear a commentator talk about how all men should support Obama/Edwards/Huckabee/whatever because he's a man. Maybe then we wouldn't even have to debate feminism.

I DID get pissed the other night watching Jeopardy when Alex pointed out they'd had several women winners in a row. What the fuck? Does he ever point out the oddity of having several male winners in a row?

Nicorette

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @AbbyNormal: You I like - "specious" - exactly.

bigleggedwoman

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @Trixie from Toronto: There probably aren't famous young feminists in the same way; it's a different time and the role Gloria Steinem filled in the 70s just doesn't exist anymore. On the other hand, I grew up in the 70s and I knew about my parents' generation's icons and those that were more recent, too--FDR, Churchhill, WWII generals, and JFK, for instance.

Icons kind of happen; they can't be created or forced, and now that focus is so decentralized, a major icon such as Steinem is unlikely to exist outside of a profession like film or music or politics.

JennaW

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @PetiteGal: You have a point. But I think Cho is representative of someone who is both a vocal feminist and a success in terms of personal career goals and all that jazz. It would be hoped that she's more appropriate for the older teens who can look past her history of drug use and gain more from the "survivor" aspects of her personal narratives.

As for non-celebrity, recognizable faces of contemporary (or "third wave" or whatever) feminism: It seems like a point of the various movements in their current incarnation is to deviate away from creating "figureheads" in the spirit of non-competition and hopes of not being seen as monolithic etc. etc. which is all fine and good, but I agree it's problematic in that there doesn't seem to be much of a starting point for girls getting interested in feminism. I can't think of any young "Katha Politts" out there. Trixie from Toronto is right about that, that's for sure.

TeenageGangDeb

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @TeenageGangDeb:

Margaret Cho??! If I had a daughter, I'm not too sure I'd want her to look at Margaret Cho as a role model. Sorry, but someone in the community that she can actually communicate with, especially someone with a more realistic career (it's much, much easier to become a banker than it is to be a comedian). But if you really want to go into celebritydom, then I'd say J. K. Rowling.

PetiteGal

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @leMaldeTete: For REAL. Any gaps left in the compulsory education your child is getting should be filled in by YOU. Not my intention to defend a curricula that leaves out first and second wave feminism (Lucky me: My 11th grade history book actually its own little sidebar dedicated to Gloria Steinem), but it peeves me greatly when parents take this apathetic attitude about their child's education. You have to be willing to involve yourself in the process if you want a well-rounded child. This attitude is what feeds into the idea of blaming teachers for EVERYTHING wrong under the sun (but this is turning into a different rant so I'll stop now).

@Trixie from Toronto: I think young women do have feminist role models (Kathleen Hanna, Margaret Cho, et al) but the problem is that they have to be looking first in order to find them.

Anyway, you know what's out of style? Declaring feminism out of style.

And it pisses me off that her evidence of this is the infighting that occurs between women & the black community. Dudes? Women make up HALF THE WORLD. There are 3,000,000,000 of us. We are NEVER going to be able to hold hands and sing Kum Ba Yah at the Universal Sisterhood Vegan Folk Jam. Plus, it bugs me to see her characterize the black community as so divisive. Hello, Jena protests? Credit where credit is due, geez.

TeenageGangDeb

]]> <![CDATA[]]> It'sheroo,

That's exactly why I put in brackets "unless they're crazy."

To people in general: Are the terms Good Ol' Boy and Old Boys' Club really interchangable? I've always seen the Old Boys' Club as exclusive, male and hints upper class (which is why many university prepartory schools in Commonwealth countries call their alumni Old Boys or Old Girls) while Good Ol' Boys are rednecks.

PetiteGal

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @PetiteGal: "No one in 2008 (unless they're crazy) is going to tell a girl that she's better off as a nurse if she wants to go to med school."

WAKE UP, PLEASE. One of my younger girlfriends just heard that from her dad -- and her dad's golfing Good Ol Boy friends - YESTERDAY.

Rooo sez BISH PLZ

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @Sev: "Of course, because being a feminist entails standing behind a woman simply because she's a woman."

You know what's scary about that, though? Is that chauvinism and the Good Ol Boy network are about men standing behind men because they're men. They don't have to be good; they don't have to be right, they just have to be men.

And feminism, to the best of my understanding, was created to fight that. So it seems to me that the Hobbesian choice of feminism is, which is the more effective tactic? Standing with someone because they're right, or because they're female, if your objective is to eradicate the residue of chauvinism in the corridors of policymaking?

(Although no matter what -- if girls today aren't being educated as to who Steinem and Friedan and hooks and Walker and Morrison are, that's just hideous and nauseating.)

Rooo sez BISH PLZ

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @Trixie from Toronto:
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is the first one that pops into my head.

mocksun

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @Trixie from Toronto:

Do we really need a truly famous person to look up to? What happened to community leaders? Teachers? Doctors? Lawyers? Business people? In any case, feminism today is very different. For the most part, we've passed the threshold of being "restricted" from doing certain things. No one in 2008 (unless they're crazy) is going to tell a girl that she's better off as a nurse if she wants to go to med school. Sure the top doctors are predominantly men, but these top doctors are also older. They were in medical school at a time when there were fewer women, so we first need to weed out the Old Boys' Club. It will take time, but as I'm 28 years old, I do see major changes within my lifestime. We probably won't notice it, since it's going to be slow.

In any case, it isn't as if non-feminist girls today are acting like charm school educated debutantes. They're the complete opposite, thanks to Britney Spears and her cohort.

PetiteGal

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @rebs: You might be confusing her with Margaret Wente. Her feature stories are usually very good, but when she starts going on about her SUV and her awful week taking the TTC and her cottage and her fucking garden pond... well, that makes me want to cut a bitch.

fluffybudgie

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @JennaW: Well I guess that's the thing. You DO want your kids to have their own icons, and that's exactly why I try not to lecture my children about the supposed good old days. But you tell me -- who are this generation's feminist heroes? Who are the famous young feminists?

Ellen Page? She's just an actress, and she just got here.

Who are they? There really aren't any.

Trixie from Toronto

]]> <![CDATA[]]> "You've never heard of [Gloria Steinem/Robert Kennedy/The Birds/Abbie Hoffman/etc.]?" *shocked inhalation of horror* has been the default outrage trigger of the Baby Boom generation since at least the 90s.

Get the hell over your own icons, guys. AND if your kids don't know who those people are, why haven't you been telling them if you care so much?

JennaW

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @Trixie from Toronto: I learned about Gloria Steinem through, of all things, a documentary about Playboy bunnies. I think I was about 11 or 12 when I watched that, and I think the doc aired on A&E. I was intrigued, and researched Glo on my own.

My mom is pretty much what I'd call a feminist, but she never sat me down and gave me a history lesson on Gloria Steniem, or made me read Germaine Greer books. I don't think she really needed to anyway, I probably would've been annoyed if she did. She went to work when my dad got sick and money needed to be made. She told me I could be or do anything. I think I turned out all right.

But I'm really surprised that history books really glossed through that whole movement. Of course, it helps not to have a disinterested football coach as your U.S. History teacher.

Gingerhell

]]> <![CDATA[]]> Many feminists are out of touch with reality. Many go on and on about how it's still difficult for women to hold senior positions or how there are so few women in senior positions, yet they don't think about one factor. Age. The reason why there aren't as many women in senior positions is because decades ago, girls didn't go to law or medical school in the numbers they do today. The aunt of a girl I went to high school with was one of three women in her law class back in the 1960s. Compare that to the Class of 2010 at the same school: 161 out of 295 students are women. But these women aren't going to be senior partners the day they get their diploma. They'll need years of work before they get there. I used to work in legal publishing where we'd produce a directory of top lawyers. Another product we produced was a directory of top YOUNG lawyers under 40. The top lawyers directory was overwhelmingly white, male and over 50. Out of the 500 or so listees, maybe 20-30 are women. The young lawyers' list? I'd say it's 35%+female. Give or take.

PetiteGal

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @Moimeme: I need one of those! "I would prefer if A were elected, but I'll be OK with B, as well."

Not that it matters because my state's primary was today and I'm not registered with a party so I couldn't vote.

I do think it's kind of sad the way Dems are pitted against each other. If you don't like Hillary, you hate all women! If you don't like Barak, you're racist!

Hello! People, we're all on the same team! Either one would make a good captain.

not.a.clever.name

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @Trixie from Toronto: I don't know how to leave a message for you (I'm a newbie here), so thanks so much!

BinderClip

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @unpopular:

Whatever you think of NOW, its work and the efforts of other feminist organizations are the reason why anyone is even bothering to read you on a blog like this, which also would not exist but for their efforts.

@hamsterpants:

I'm actually considering flipping a coin. They both have their strengths and weaknesses and I'm tired of the Hillary-gangbang* just as much as I'm sick of hearing that Obama can't win because, he's uh, Canadian. [A new phrase I picked up today.]

I also could happily vote for Edwards. Do they make three-sided coins?

*Not restricted to men.

Seeräuber Jenny

]]> <![CDATA[]]> ms. von hahn is confusing feminism w/paternalism, which has never been "in style" when it comes to women's rights and issues. enough said.

etvoila

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @justwanttohave: "that she is just a front for the man who really wants to run things again".

Hunh. I could not disagree more. You think HE wears the pants in that family?

I'm for Hillary. I think she has the experience and insight to fight the bullshit. I think Obama is too green, too soft, too idealistic. I'm all about him for VP though.

Onalee

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @justwanttohave: What the hell are you on about? Really? Canadians have always been happy to have elites tell us what to do? I guess that explains our universal health care, started up by socialists. And our attempts to legalize same-sex marriage and ease marijuana laws until our very own George W. took power.

Jesus.

Trixie from Toronto

]]> <![CDATA[]]> Psht. As a woman of color I am supporting both of my communities. I just choose Barack for his . I guess I will put a button on my Obama shirt that says, "But I don't HATE Hillary."

Moimeme

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @shuffler: unlike = alike in my last post

Catty Is Cumbersome

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @justwanttohave: Wow, way to dismiss all of her accomplishments. That's sort of like saying Obama is just a symbol for change in that he is black.

Catty Is Cumbersome

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @ThaKadinskyPapers: I really think you're on to something here. Possibly, that is how she would react if she had been in Hillary's situation, but of course not all women think unlike so it's unfair to assume that her motives were for political reasons.

Catty Is Cumbersome

]]> <![CDATA[]]> I sort of agree with J.D. Regent - Feminism has never been in style; it's entire history is one of a counter-culture.

Maybe feminism is just more unattainable in America. Maybe it comes in the form of protests in the mid-east.

-Kylie

Kylie

]]> <![CDATA[]]> Of course the things we don't like about Hillary -- that she is just a front for the man who really wants to run things again (think Evita) wouldn't bother a Canadian! They have always been happy to have elites tell them what to do.

oldschoolfeminist

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @BinderClip: I do. I will leave a message on your profile!

Trixie from Toronto

]]> <![CDATA[]]> gloria steinem may be out of style, but belief in the rights of women is not!

kshenkshen

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @Trixie from Toronto: Only because it was over AIM.

I mean, I know a lot of people don't bother to inform themselves before voting. Hell, my Mom has admitted to me that she just votes Democrat regardless of who is on the ticket and that she chooses Primary candidates by asking her co-workers who they are voting for.

But I think the premise of not even giving someone a look-see b/c they are "too popular" on Facebook, especially given that she is Black and a Woman, makes the media seem more and more correct when they assume Blacks and Women are too simple to pick candidates on their merit.

ae38

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @Trixie from Toronto: Do you actually live in Toronto? B/c I'm moving there and trying to figure out what neighborhood to rent in. I know this is totally off-thread, but I like your posts so I thought I'd ask!

BinderClip

]]> <![CDATA[]]> I do have a teenage daughter. She's got the feminism and the crazies, but she sure didn't get feminism from me being "in her face" with it.

We'll see about the thighs, she's young yet.

Immolator

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @TheOtherJen: I find it interesting that you characterize Hillary Clinton as someone "without any backbone" and not "strong enough for the job."

Is it really because you find it distasteful that her husband had sex outside his marriage and she didn't divorce him?? I mean, there's *no* other reason?

ThaKadinskyPapers

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @ae38: Doesn't that just kind of leave Edwards? Poor guy, he's not even popular enough to be a fad... No, seriously, that whole encounter blows my mind. I hope you managed to collect up the bits of your head that exploded.

BinderClip

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @ae38: How did you contain yourself from bitchslapping her? Seriously. That is profoundly disturbing.

Trixie from Toronto

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @Ms. Pants: yes, it would.

ThaKadinskyPapers

]]> <![CDATA[]]> So this is slightly off topic, but I have been reeling off of this all day.

I'm talking to a friend today and she's all, "I'm not following the elections because they don't affect me and all politicians lie, blah, blah, blah...Just tell me who to vote for and I'll vote for them."

Mind you, she works in education, so I would think she would care about the elections given No Child Left Behind and all, nevertheless...

I suggest she vote for Obama, to which she says:

"I'm not voting for him - he's just a facebook fad, like something to put on your profile to look cool."

Mind you, this is a woman in her mid/late 20's.

She continued that people are just voting for him because he's black and people think black people are cool (she's black).

My mind was blown. She insisted she wouldn't even read up on him because she didn't want to feed into the fad.

And then she said Clinton was a fad, too, and my head exploded. Sometimes, I do not think its okay that everyone is allowed to vote.

ae38

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @Onalee: Thank you! Honestly, I don't understand women who are feminists in thought but refuse to call themselves feminists. I've found Gloria Steinem eminently tiresome recently, and very out of touch, but there are different strands of feminism. The one thing that unites are all, I think, is a commitment to equal citizenship and gender equality in various domains, both public and private.

BinderClip

]]> <![CDATA[]]> The more you encourage a group to be independent, the less they will act like and vote like each other. Dare I say, that NOT voting for Hilary is a feminist ideal - as a woman I get to choose who I vote for.

As a woman, I HATE the national organization for women, and they do not speak for me. Ever.

unpopular

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @ThaKadinskyPapers:

She obviously stayed with him for political reasons, why else would you stay with a cheat that drug you through a embarrassing charade for all the world to see?

I just have a lot of trouble letting someone w/o any backbone run my country, regardless of what sex or race they are. I just don't think she's strong enough for the job. Shrewd and power-hungry yes, but character and backbone? None.

TheOtherJen

]]> <![CDATA[]]> LOL at "feminism is out of style"

What's next from the Files of the Obvious?

slowburn

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @sequined: I completely agree with you. I eventually got over it, grew up, and stopped getting my panties all twisty over some loser shit my brother said.

Lady Skittlehattington

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @Onalee: Exactly. I think that's the point.

Trixie from Toronto

]]> <![CDATA[]]> Would it be un-feminist of me to leave a steamer on the pillow of Karen Von Hahn?

Ms. Pants

]]> <![CDATA[]]> "I don't think about being a woman as I go through life; I think about being a human, a person"

And therein lies the rich and rewarding inheritance of feminism. Want to go to college? Great! Want to work full time? Great! Want to control your fertility? Do it. etc... etc.... etc... Could you feel the way you do if you were a woman of the '50s?

Onalee

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @LadySkittlehattington: A lot of people refuse to identify as a feminist (and I was one of these people) because it sounds "radical" and "polarizing" but in reality, it's not a radical concept. Everyone in the world should be able to proudly stand up and say, "I think women and men should be treated as inherently human, and sex and gender shouldn't be a part of the equation." But apparently that kind of thinking is "out". What the fuck ever.

sequined

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @stacyinbean: Do you have teenaged daughters? Because honestly, that is a lot easier said than done. They pretty much start to clue you out once they get to 12, no matter what you do or how often you're in their faces.

And no shit about being nasty to one another. Calling someone a "stupid entitled cunt" because you disagree with one of her columns. Whoa!

Trixie from Toronto

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @TheOtherJen: @shuffler: I have to agree with shuffler. If HRC doesn't feel her husband's infidelity was/is a reason for divorce, what business is that of mine? And what bearing does it have on whether or not I believe in equal rights for equal pay? Just suppose Hills has a lovah of her own, (what? it could happen!) maybe her and Bill like it that way, maybe that's how they get down. They sure seem like a fierce team on the campaign trail and when he was in the WH.

ThaKadinskyPapers

]]> <![CDATA[]]> I don't identify as a "feminist" either. I believe 100% that women are equal to men in almost all social ways (and the ways in which we are not the same, and in which we excel more naturally at different things, I don't see as evidence of "inequality," just difference), but I really, really hate the way that feminism looks at and portrays women. I don't think about being a woman as I go through life; I think about being a human, a person. I feel that feminismm, by making us look at everything through the prism of being a woman (I know we do that anyway, but we don't do it so consciously), stifles any equality I have by making me so conscious of and reactive an inequality that is much more subtle than it used to be. I understand feminism's place in history, and I recognize that without the movement I wouldn't have the equality I have today, but I also think being stringently "feminist" moves me backwards. Why do I have to do, say, or think everything "as a woman"? Why can't I just live like a person?

stoprobbers

]]> <![CDATA[]]> "embrace each others like sisters" to me is just a fluffy way to say 'stop the crazy (classic) oppressed group behavior that permeates female interactions'. It is a fact that women are nasty to one another far too often. Let us all agree RIGHT NOW not to do that in our own lives. It's frickin' hard to do!

I want Hillary to win so I can see more Bill again. I love me some Bill. Does that make me a feminist, or an anti-feminist?

Onalee

]]> <![CDATA[]]> Oh, for fuck's sake. I'm glad to be reminded once again that being a "good" feminist is not about making the choices I decide on my own but following some predetermined notion. I'm just a dumb girl, so it's easy for me to forget.

Bronx Mowgli GoodCopBabyCop

]]> <![CDATA[]]> When I was in 7th grade, my mom overheard something I said and told me that I was a feminist. And so I went around for months afterward being all, "Fuck you! I'm a feminist." And then my older brother (jerkoff) told me that if I'm a feminist then I must be a lesbian. And already feeling quite confused by the ickiness of 7th grade and perhaps staring at one of the 8th grader's boobs just a bit long in the locker room after PE, I got all upset and decided that I wasn't a feminist after all. I think people are afraid of declaring themselves feminists because they are afraid of having their sexuality questioned. Particularly teenage girls, I suppose, because they are already facing all sorts of scrutiny anyway.

Lady Skittlehattington

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @Hez: That's a terrible thing to say. And I even like the c-word. It's not even an accurate description of what she writes. She hasn't done the shopping stuff in years.

And way to prove her point, by the way. Wow.

Trixie from Toronto

]]> <![CDATA[]]> Feminisim isn't a dirty word.

Miss Smith Drank Your Vodka

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @TheOtherJen: So, if she left Bill you would approve of her? Ha, judging her decision to stay with him has nothing to do with feminism.

Catty Is Cumbersome

]]> <![CDATA[]]> Karen Von Hahn is a stupid entitled cunt who usually writes about shopping for luxury "must-haves". Feminism is better off without her tiresome swanning.

Hez

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @kityglitr: For some reason I think that because I refuse to vote for a candidate soley because she is a woman, I am truly a feminist.

nwporn

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @Trixie from Toronto: I agree that a majority if not all of Gen X and Gen Y females are not being taught about women like Steinem, and to that point are also uninformed about the idea of feminism. But how do you quantify 'feminism'? As you pointed out, we've had this discussion about a million times on this site and every time the answer is different as it means different things to different people. Me personally, I was def one of those women that eschewed the word 'feminist' because in my mind it meant hairy legged, free tit swinging, loud barking activist type woman who enjoyed nothing more than pouncing on oppresive types and beating them into delusional submission with my placard. But that (incorrect) interpretation came from ignorance, simply because no-one ever discussed the topic with me before.
I think the ideals or definition of feminism are going to be somewhat different for everyone, and like everything else I think feminism can and should change with the times. Adaption is necessary for survival, in fact, I can attribute my change in thinking to Jezebel and the discussions that I have participated in. I'm not so sure that saying that we must "embrace each other like sisters.." is the most appealing argument though.

ThaKadinskyPapers

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @PhillyLass: Word, sister. We are on the same page today.

Also, shout out to my dad, who also made sure I got the Gloria Steinem message, the "You can be anything you want to be" message and took me to Take your daughter to work day annually.

But TYDTWD is a way that old-guard feminism is out of touch. Even when I went, 16 years ago, I saw plenty of women there as I did men, and many women were in leadership positions. The first time I went, I didn't understand the concept or why boys wouldn't be allowed.

For a long time, I didn't self-identify as a feminist, because the feminists I knew didn't shave their armpits and railed against women for wearing pink and I thought, "That's not a group I want to be a part of." Part of what I've learned here is that I can be a feminist and shave my pits and wear pink and do all of that with thoughtfulness of what exactly it means and why exactly I'm doing it. I can also consider voting for Obama or Clinton and neither one is an affront or a promotion of my gender.

not.a.clever.name

]]> <![CDATA[]]> Wouldn't I be a hypocrite to support a woman (Hillary) who doesn't even have enough of a backbone to leave a cheating husband, but yet call my self a feminist JUST for voting for a woman? FUCK that!

TheOtherJen

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @leMaldeTete: Thank you! If your daughter doesn't know who Steinem is, YOU suck! Exactly who is responsible for teaching her that? She is right about us all being the nasties to each other though.

stacyinbean

]]> <![CDATA[]]> I gotta say, before I saw the backlash against HRC I was more ambivalent toward her, but I have to admire the way she deals with the utter shit. I cannot believe how pulled-together she is, and how fearless.

I don't really "like" her, but I haven't "liked" anyone else I voted for, nor do it "like" a lot of the leadership at work. But I know who is going to do the work and who is going to sit on their asses writing carefully crafted e-mails that don't actually address anything.

noseriously

]]> <![CDATA[]]> I'm surprised -- Von Hahn usually writes about rich people's problems

rebs

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @Trixie from Toronto: I learned about GS from my mom, not in school. I get the sense that young women (under 20) associate feminism with hairy armpits and, perhaps, do not realize that, not so long ago, asserting equality with men was very revolutionary. There are more women than men in college and more women than men graduate HS (I believe). Law schools have more women than men. It is a very different time to be a girl.

nwporn

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @leMaldeTete: Oh dear Lord, I am glad this is not true. My mother believes that all feminists worship Satan and want all men to die. And that this is their true feminist platform.

I do have her bigass thighs, though.

noseriously

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @scarletvirtue: It's the same idea that black people should vote for Barack because he's black - I guess if you're black and a chick you have to flip a coin - look, if the only sensibility and thought you're bringing to the table on whom to vote for is to go with the person whose skin color and genitalia most closely resemble your own, please, stay home. Fuck, the last jackass was voted in by quite a few people who said "he'd be fun to have a beer with".

Hamsterpants

]]> <![CDATA[]]> Okay, riddle me this, Batgirls... why does voting for a woman supposedly make me a feminist? Wouldn't my (taught by mama) belief that men and women should have an equal place in our society be a more accurate measure? This is why more women don't self identify as feminists; they don't even know what the word means, only what it implies. The implication is one of shrill, man-hating, sexlessness. It's also completely untrue.

kityglitr

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @leMaldeTete: LOL!

@notaclevername: Exactly.

I also want to take issue (again) with the idea that you have to be a woman to be feminist. If you're an advocate for and supporter of women, then you're a feminist. Under my definition, my dad is a feminist, many of my male co-workers are feminist, and many of my guy friends are feminist. Feminism is about more than anatomy. It's a philosophy and set of beliefs. So, I don't feel compelled to support the female candidate simply because she has ovaries. I support the candidate who I believe will best represent my interests, and this time out, I believe that candidate is Obama.

PhillyLass

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @Trixie from Toronto: She makes some valid points, but doesn't clearly tie her argument together for me, unless making sweeping generalizations is the crux. Women have no faith in their communities? Actually, the most fierce and devoted advocates of community awareness and activism I know are African American women. So I take umbrage with that statement. But I'd have to read more of her work to really make a decision about her beyond this article.

And, for some reason, the out-of-style comment makes me think of Feminism on Project Runway, with Heidi giving it the double kiss and saying Auf Wiedersehen.

AbbyNormal

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @leMaldeTete: I have had the conversation with my daughter about Gloria Steinem and other feminists, but the fact is, feminism is not being taught in our schools, we are not seeing women out burning their bras as we were when I was a young kid, and stories of smart and successful and feminist women do not get reported -- yet the stories of losers like Paris Hilton, Britney Spears and others do.

Parents can only teach so much. Did you listen to your parents' blatherings as a teenager? It would be nice if our culture wasn't so utterly fucked and that girls were reading feminist viewpoints in newspapers and watching them on TV and seeing them in movies. This is why I so loved Juno.

Trixie from Toronto

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @hamsterpants: If that makes you a bad feminist, then I'm probably going to Feminist Hell right alongside you.

The "Vote for Hillary - she has the same parts as us!" mentality really gets under my skin. Like I'm somehow a bad person because I'm a feminist that supports the man as the candidate/President.

scarletvirtue

]]> <![CDATA[]]> Of course, because being a feminist entails standing behind a woman simply because she's a woman. I guess I should stop hating Ann Coulter and Hasslebeck now because vaginas flock together.

Sev

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @leMaldeTete: I got my Gloria Steinem knowledge from my mom. Actually, it arrived the same year as my big thighs. The crazy is just now manifesting itself.

not.a.clever.name

]]> <![CDATA[]]> Feminism isn't failing because women aren't embracing each other as sisters. Feminism, at least the old guard, is failing because it's out of touch with the young generation and keeps pandering to the Boomers. Kinda like Hillary Clinton.

not.a.clever.name

]]> <![CDATA[]]> Maybe, uhhh, she should teach her daughter who Gloria Steinem is? I mean, feminism is one of those things that transmits really clearly from mother to daughter. Like big thighs, or The Crazies.

leMaldeTete

]]> <![CDATA[]]> I was, and still am, totally put off and saddened by the bitter backlash against Hillary for becoming emotional. JFC! WTF! I don't get negativity about it.

Can we just agree that one will be Prez and one VP and they can flip a coin about who? Because Hills and Barack tearing each other up is really pissing me off.

Onalee

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @cinemaddict: snort! But can we wear it after Labor Day?

AbbyNormal

]]> <![CDATA[]]> She's a great and extremely intelligent columnist -- the smartest one in that paper by far -- and I think her point is this: somehow, a young generation of girls have no idea what feminism is and what it means, and in fact don't think they ARE feminists. We've had that debate on this very site.

I have a 17-year-old daughter too, and she wouldn't know who Gloria Steinem is, and she's not being taught about it in school either.

And the attacks on Clinton for crying by other women? That was bullshit.

Trixie from Toronto

]]> <![CDATA[]]> Haven't you heard? Chauvinism is the new white belt!

cinemaddict

]]> <![CDATA[]]> @AbbyNormal: heehee.

badmutha

]]> <![CDATA[]]> And I guess if I don't vote for Hillary because I don't like her stand on the issues, and vote for Barack instead because I do, I'm a bad feminist? Jesus, if that's what the writer thinks feminism was/is about, she's right, that's "out of style", and I'll pass.

Hamsterpants

]]> <![CDATA[]]> Oh, well, if she did THAT much research, then obvs she knows what she's talking about. And her thinking isn't specious at all. Nope.

AbbyNormal

]]> <![CDATA[]]> yeouch. i dunno about you, but someone smells like she was BURNED in her lifetime.

titania1285

]]> <![CDATA[]]> I am going to use my favorite new exclaimation that I found here on Jezebel: For the fuck of SHIT. I' d love to slap that woman.

badmutha

]]> <![CDATA[]]> um, newsflash, feminism has NEVER been in the kind of style people call "in style." that's what makes us so edgy and underground and shit.

J.D.Regent

]]> <![CDATA[]]> Oh snap.

leMaldeTete

]]> <![CDATA[]]> Bitter much?

lurkystars

]]>