gaypastor

Magister

The race is between Hillary and Obama and it pretty much has always been. Of course, if you'd like to keep voting for Edwards, so that he gets some additional delegates to toss toward Obama, please feel free. Most of the analysis that I've seen is that his presence in SC helps Obama, but considering that Jesse Jackson, a more polarizing figure carried SC twice, I'm not sure that the Senator from Illinois really needs the help.

Magister

eatsshootsleaves

And can we please not use the term "pro-life?" It insinuates that pro-choicers are "pro death."

Cunning_Linguist

gaythings

no, my point was that there are women who actually believe that. and it's stupid.

just because hillary and i have the same privates doesn't mean she'll make a better president than any dude.

onestrawplz

Some people are going to vote for her because she's a woman, much like some African-Americans are going to vote for Obama because he looks like them. Personally, I think that a higher percentage of African-Americans are going to vote for Obama than women are going to vote for Hillary, but that's a whole different issue and it is neither here, nor there.

In a previous election cycle, as a Democratic activist, I've long held that the pairing of Liddy Dole and Colin Powell would be unstoppable. They'd both pull from their natural constituencies, plus they're both Republicans.

Sure, eventually we're going to have another woman with a good chance of being President, but there's not a lot of names on the horizon and if some people feel that they must vote for her because of her gender or if they're weighing two equals and feel that her sex puts her over the top; Who are we to judge? We're also going to eventually have a black President; One from Arizona; Another with a name ending in a vowel (Monroe & Fillmore aren't really ethnic-sounding and both were more than 150 years ago) and we may even get a Mormon, someday. In the meantime, if the candidates matching these discriptions are the choice of some for primarily these reasons, then that's their choice and we should respect it.

As for myself, I haven't endorsed a candidate in the primaries since Jesse Jackson and I primarily did it as an aside, when I was going door-to-door in a minority neighborhood, as part of a get-out-the-vote effort. When it's my turn to vote, I'm probably going to vote the game to keep one or the other of the front-runners in the race because I think we're being served by the process and as I've said a couple of times over the past few days; The Democrats might possibly not have a nominee before the convention.

Magister

PaceysCreek

Robophoto

Plus, I don't think Obama would set women's rights back or anything.

Threadtrend

SarahMC

Ugh, I don't know.

But I wonder if everyone's candidate of choice would remain the same if a person with Clinton's record, qualifications, and personality resided in a male body while Obama's record, qualifications and personality resided in a female one.

Would a female Obama even be a blip on the radar?

SarahMC

By the way, I'm a feminist and I'm voting for Obama. Because there is pretty much no difference between Clinton and him besides the fact that he attracts more independent voters and isn't fighting a consistently negative campaign.

@Cfredl54: I never really understood why Edwards and Clinton made the rather superficial claim that Obama did not actually provide universal health care. Look up Obama's plan; it's really the same thing without a mandate. It's like the difference between "Take this candy!" and "I have a large bowl of candy on my desk if you're interested." Except with health care and not candy. We unfortunately don't have a candidate brave enough to run on a pro-candy platform yet. And they say this election's about change.

eatsshootsleaves

I don't like to compare injustices or inequities, but women are not the only subjugated group in the US. Not by a long shot. Black males are also at risk for suffering violence, facing prejudice, receiving substandard education and not realizing their potential.

Realizing that makes it easier to vote for Obama, whose vision I believe in more anyway.

Threadtrend

braak

SarahMC

Maybe I'm looking at old stuff, though.

braak

And Marxist-feminism is an approach to politics that talks about the dismantling of capitalism in order to achieve feminist ideals--I don't have a problem with that. I think that's a fine goal, and a fine way to describe it.

However, it doesn't change the fact that dismantling capitalism isn't essentially feminist; they are still two different things, they just happen to be conducive to each other.

All right, some people argue that dismantling capitalism is essentially feminist, and that the enslavement of women was the first step on the road to capitalism, but I don't really think this is accurate. Capitalism as a system is inconsiderate of gender--it is considerate only of value, scarcity, and power discrepency. You could easily (though no one has) build a capitalist system based on the enslavement of men, or a capitalist system in which men and women are treated equally, but black people are enslaved, or one in which no one is enslaved, but it's still capitalist.

This is probably more of a neurosis with me than it is a valid political argument, but I like specific things to have specific names. Feminism addresses gender inequality, and that's important, but not all misery is the result of gender inequality.

braak

SarahMC

amen sister.

onestrawplz

wait so, she has a vadge, so i should vote for her because i have one too? hillary going to do anything great, so no thank you.

onestrawplz

SarahMC

MegSpencer

SarahMC

What has Obama done that is so courageous? Hillary Clinton HAS convinctions, while Obama has nothing more than "hope." He has not actually voted for or against controversial bills. He votes "present." I would like an Obama supporter (or the man himself) to address that.

SarahMC

Hillary's gender has nothing to do with my decision, she could be a fluffy bunny and I still wouldn't like her choices as a politician. I also feel that all her "experience" comes off as "because I said so," with "fine, since you're being stubborn, I'll tell you one more time why I know better," and not actual reasoned arguments. Finally, whatever her personal positions are, she lacks the courage of her convictions to stand up for them when she's challenged hard, and instead spins a version that she thinks will fly.

I like Obama's approach to leadership, and I think he'll put together a really good cabinet without too much regard for his ego, ie he'll pick the best people for the jobs even if they disagree with him or might overshadow him in an area. And I really admire that he stands behind what he's said, even when shredded by pundits for it. Everyone got on his comment about meeting with the leaders of Iran in his first year, and yet he never tried to retract it and has been proven right in the end.

mockingbird

There is a strain of feminism known as Marxist Feminism: [en.wikipedia.org]

SarahMC

@mynameisrio: You are an example of someone who's eaten up this meme that feminists will vote for ANY woman just to see a woman in the White House. What evidence is there to support this? You have to put this in context of sex AND politics.
When given a choice between three progressive candidates with similar records, feminists might be inclined to go with the woman. But do you actually think feminists are in favor of voting for conservative, misogynist women?

@sideeffectofsociety: This needs to be repeated again and again. I am convinced that the MSM is working to bully progressive women into voting for someone OTHER than Clinton. They are doing this by constantly questioning us and suggesting that we're mindless voters if we support her.

SarahMC

Ugh, this whole thing is a conundrum.

braak

sparklytoesfairydustbutt

But I don't think it's accurate to conflate Marxism and Feminism, which seems to be what you're doing. I'm in favor of feminism, but my understanding of feminism is that it is meant to resolve, specifically, issues of gender-specific exploitation.

Desiring to end the exploitation of poor people by wealthy people doesn't seem especially feminist; it just seems like regular old Marxism.

Similarly, what feminist perspective is there on the Iraq war? There are feminist concerns about gender inequality, about the danger posed, specifically, to women in the military, but these are concerns with the social environment of the military itself.

That the war is expensive, pointless, immoral, and dangerous has absolutely nothing to do with the genders of those involved.

I am, moreover, adamantly opposed to living in a matriarchal society--as you pointed out, people exploit power, not just men.

Also, I didn't know there were any major matriarchal societies, but I assume there must have been some if someone wrote a book about them.

braak

WendyKroy

mynameisrio

rosie7

SuzieCreamcheese

I know a lot of Sen. Obama supporters young and old and your arguement of "being one of the guys" doesn't hold water with my experiences. Yes they might hate Hillary but perhaps it is because of her record (or even her personality - just because the media is having a field day with sexist comments against her, doesn't mean she automatically has a great one)

Plus if you don't think the Clinton campaign isn't gleefully encouraging the emotional outrage at the sexism in order to get women to vote for her, ummm I respectfully disagree. The mailer that the campaign sent out in New Hampshire questioning Sen. Obama's pro-choice stance comes to mind.

Sen. Clinton, Sen. Obama, ALL OF THEM, are politicians....they want to win, and the game is ugly.

Sporbit

As for supporting Hillary, for me the preference goes like this: Obama, Hillary, Edwards. I like Obama best because, well, I ate that "audacity of hope" book up with a spoon. He is consistent in voting pro-choice and for other causes that help women, almost if not to the extent Hillary is. While I would love to see a female president, I would love to see a black president as well. I can't bring myself to prioritize one as a victory over the other, and since I am far more personally inspired by Obama's idealism than Hillary's defensive strategy (although I very much admire her for that, as well), that's who I'm going to vote for.

TeenageGangDeb

rsr26

To bad-mouth feminism and talk about how happy you are to have choices in life is the height of irony.

Without feminism, women have no choices! And men have fewer choices.

SarahMC

SarahMC

And what is this "abject" poverty you speak of? Most poor people, as that term is defined in this country, own their own car, eat daily and own a television set. Because of capitalism, our poor are much better off than those facing real poverty in the third world.

rsr26

rsr26

SarahMC

SarahMC

So, in conclusion, I don't know.

meaghan2k

While I don't think communism in the historical sense is the answer, because it's never worked (and why is that? Because true communism, the one Marx harps on about, was never implemented ever) I do think that we need to haul ass and get out of capitalism as soon as possible. Why? Because I don't want to be there when it falls apart. Also, because Marx believed that if we acheive true communism, the next step, the final step, would be anarchy. And not anarchy like people think most of the time, but a world where shit is just nice and chill.

Sure, that may be utopian, but I don't mind sounding crazy. It helps me sleep better at night.

meaghan2k

SarahMC

rose0red

WHY, may I politely ask, are we not polling the students at the alma mater's of all the other candidates and making these kinds of statements about them? Is it because Hillary is a woman, or because Hillary is Hillary (and by that I mean polarizing and disliked by a great number of people)? Or maybe it's because Wellesley is Wellesley? In that Wellesley is an indicator of the feminist vote...less about school loyalty and more about feminist sisterhood?

Of course a vile woman who is so horrible even her feminist sisters don't want to vote for her...well, she must really stand no chance, right? Fuck you, Tucker!

rose0red

SarahMC

It's like people who knock Hillary literally know nothing about her besides her sex.

SarahMC

Side by side, Hillary and Obama, I'm voting for Obama. Not because I don't want to elect a woman or even have Hillary-hate, but because I agree more with him.

(And I love him. A little bit.)

proptersnark

Not ALL women voting for Obama are doing it for this reason but everywhere I turn I hear young women high-fiving the guys about hating Hillary and how totally awesome Obama is. It sends chills down my spine.

And I HATE that the media sets up this false dichotomy of Women Who Like Obama And Are Voting For Obama vs. Women Who Like Obama But Are Voting For Hillary.

SOME OF US ACTUALLY WANT HILLARY BASED ON HER RECORD!

SarahMC

@Namennayo: Great comment, thank you

Sporbit

rose0red

I can completely understand why a woman would instinctively feel that only another woman could honestly and compassionately represent her needs. However, I have witnessed male politicians who had more respect for and fought harder for women's rights than their female colleagues who were all too willing to deny women their dignity and privacy.

This ultimately comes down to an issue of empathy -- how well can a particular candidate both intellectually and emotionally relate to the issues important to Americans, especially those Americans who have historically been marginalized and been "granted" their inalienable rights only when others decided it was time to do so?

Theoretically speaking, either a male or female is capable of supporting women's rights. Practically speaking, who is more capable of preserving and advancing our rights -- Hillary, Obama, or someone else? Those kinds of questions can be better answered by doing actual research and looking at vote histories, speeches, endorsements, funding priorities, etc. . . and how many voters take the time to look into those records?

Maybe this sounds kind of cynical, but if people make a decision to vote based mainly on race or gender, both involuntary traits, they're being lazy and making an emotional, rather than an informed decision. And conversely, women shouldn't avoid voting for Hillary just because they want to avoid seeming like mindless feminist drones. Vote for a candidate who has PROVEN themselves to have aligned their values and interests with yours.

Namennayo

SinisterRouge

brownalice

SinisterRouge

Jamie Sommers

Lizawithazee

But when I read the Huffintonpost under Clinton links it ended

"but her plan still doesn't contain a commitment that her FCC will uphold net neutrality provisions. Clinton's media and internet proposals may allow the destruction of the internet."

I am not being personal about Sen. Clinton, I am concerned about her positions. I am concerned that I don't know the specifics of Obama's positions very much. I like Edwards, but right now he doesn't seem very viable.

I love, love, love the Democrat's choices compared to Republicans.

Sporbit

Lizawithazee

FloraWay

"Protecting Women's Right to Choose

The decision about whether to become a parent is one of the most important decisions that a woman can face. Edwards believes that she should make it with her family, her doctor and in the context of her religious and ethical values. He will protect and defend the right to choose and reverse the damage that has been done by President Bush's anti-choice agenda."-- johnedwards.com/women

And he got a 100% rating for NARAL (Pro-choice America) while in the Senate.

FloraWay

"Protecting Women's Right to Choose

The decision about whether to become a parent is one of the most important decisions that a woman can face. Edwards believes that she should make it with her family, her doctor and in the context of her religious and ethical values. He will protect and defend the right to choose and reverse the damage that has been done by President Bush's anti-choice agenda."

Sporbit

Clinton:
[www.huffingtonpost.com]
[www.techliberation.com]
[www.senate.gov]

Edwards:
[www.savetheinternet.com]

They're all in support of net neutrality. Whether they stick with that when they're facing the Republican candidate/telecoms, is a different story.

FloraWay

Notebook_of_Lies

rsr26

meaghan2k

sumac

PaisleyPajamas

Where does Obama stand? And Sen. Clinton?

There is an article about about Clinton on Open Left:
[www.openleft.com]

But anybody else know some specifics??

And shouldn't we be concerned with the candidate who will not only symbolize EQUALITY (as in equal rights for everyone - not choosing between race, gender, class, etc)....... but has polices and platforms that reinforce equality?

Who is it? I dunno...let's discuss specific issues, platforms, and fixes. Pretty Please?

Sporbit

meaghan2k

Cfredl54

meaghan2k

listen, I don't think Hillary is radical in the slightest, but certainly she has consistently maintained positions throughout her entire political life that can be considered feminist. (As have several other candidates.) So while I totally get that none of the candidates are radical enough for you, surely it's disingenuous to claim that none of them hold any feminist positions "at all."

BadenBaden

titania1285

meaghan2k

And speaking of that everyday stuff, I wish she'd promised to get us out of Iraq more quickly. I hear what CarrieMC has to say about a single payer health care system, but I am somewhat more skeptical about the possibility of that ever being passed. And if I don't think someone can actually do the one thing that running on, I'm sorry, but I have to take a pass.

westvillagegirl (exiled in chicago)

fixed

bess marvin, girl detective

MegSpencer

ineffable.me

PaisleyPajamas

Cfredl54

Obama? He's advocating the Powell doctrine, perhaps the smartest political document of the past ten years. Diplomacy, diplomacy, diplomacy. And if that doesn't work, use overwhelming force to minimize conflict and casualties.

Do I have to remind everyone about Hillary's voting record? She's a cold calculated politician.

And I'd at least rather vote for the idea of a person with integrity and honest to God empathy and go with Obama.

Sally Field said it best when she said you better believe we wouldn't have gone to war if we had a woman president, because she was wrong. Hillary would have sent everyone to Iraq anyway. And that just outlines the problem - she doesn't represent your foreign policy interests.

jesseraub

THERE ARE MORE THAN TWO CHOICES.

Licorice

mbprice

Is it so hard to believe that maybe some of us are supporting Hillary because we like her plans and ideas? The fact that she's a woman is just icing, baby.

rose0red

I will make it my priority to makes sure slumber parties are a top issue on every Americans mind.

meaghan2k

meaghan2k

@BritneyCanadaWhore: so we're on the same page! sweet!

ineffable.me

titania1285

CarrieMC

I do have another question. Women make up fully one half of the population. In theory, a candidate could appeal to women voters almost exclusively and possibly win the entire damn thing, and there wouldn't be fuck-all men could do about it. I'm a dude, so I know full well that I don't understand all the nuances here, so how does appealing to women earn you less votes? Actually, while thinking about that I realized that the mostly-male media would lambaste that candidate, but the fact remains that that wouldn't stop women from voting for him/her.

mbprice

BritneyCanadaWhore

I'm going to vote for a corpse, because Lewis Black suggested it and I think it would be the best course this country could take.

meaghan2k

westvillagegirl (exiled in chicago)

That said, I'm going to vote for an old white guy with a trophy wife in the primary. Because I think an old white guy giving all of us a single payer healthcare system would be more pro-woman and pro-minority.

CarrieMC

meaghan2k

Cfredl54

aspiringexpatriate

meaghan2k

meaghan2k

Also Hilary started Wellesley as a conservative Republican and ended as a Democrat and a liberal.

Cimorene

BritneyCanadaWhore

MegSpencer

The truth is, sometimes I think feminism is one of the most oppressive things of them all.

ineffable.me

Susan B.

meaghan2k

rocknrollunicorn

Meaning, a feminist wouldn't have to, say, eliminate the electoral college (though she fucking SHOULD), or restructure the US Government fundamentally to make it more accessible to women--she'd instead have to change the cultural perceptions that cause it to get stacked full of men in the first place.

Moreover, I'm not entirely clear what a feminist perspective on the war in Iraq is. Hillary said taht she wants to pull the troops out within, what, ninety days? I don't know if that's feminist or not, but it's certainly clear, and it's certainly different from what many male candidates have said.

braak

ineffable.me

westvillagegirl (exiled in chicago)

not.a.clever.name

BritneyCanadaWhore

cheerupsylvia (Can I Haz...Notice???)

PetiteGal

This makes it sound (though actually I don't think he MEANT it this way) like our options are 1) vote with vagina, for Hilary or 2) vote with brain, for Barack

To me the implications of this discussion are insulting to Hilary. Then again, every once in awhile I think of how women make up 1/2 (or I think a little higher?) of our population and there has never been a goddamn woman as president, and it does make me mad. I'm sorry, it just f-ing does.

rocknrollunicorn

mbprice

J.D.Regent

meaghan2k

Susan B.

meaghan2k

Also, I get that a whole lot of people want to have a President that will overhaul the system (and rightfully so), but there's also many people who would just be happy to have a President who works within the system to improve it. None of the viable Presidential candidates will overthrow it - which is why they're viable (I'm looking at you, Kucinich and Ron Paul). So mostly what I'm trying to get at is, Hillary is a work-within-the-system type of politician. As are 99% of the politicians out there. And I'm ok with that, because I think realistically, that's the best we can do at this moment in history (society is not ready for an anarchist President!).

BadenBaden

Clinton should be honest about her views on abortion, healthcare and the war, and she isn't. She has changed her mind or kept her mouth completely shut, and she had to do that in order to have a serious chance at the presidency. Therefore, she is not longer acting like the woman she once was, she has conformed into what is necessary to be considered for the presidency. Which is acting like every MAN who came before her in the White House.

meaghan2k

mbprice

LookyLoo

TruculentandUnreliable

Drinky O'Drunkerton

aspiringexpatriate

FloraWay

Why is the second option assumed to be Obama. Why isn't he second option Clinton or Dodd ffs?

aspiringexpatriate

PaisleyPajamas

ineffable.me

FloraWay

sumac

badmanners