<![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway? - Jezebel Comments]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway? - Jezebel Comments]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> Hi, I have being feeling anxious about this for a while and wanted some opinions on it?

Ok so me and my flatmate had been sleeping together for a while and then it got complicated, I started likig him and he didn't feel the same so we decided to end it and jsut be friends.

One night after being out in town , me and my friend came home and he was asleep on the couch (drunk) we treied to wake him up and started to joke around with him. He half woke up and told us to stop hassleing him and let him sleep.
we both then left to go to bed. Abou 10 minutes later I got up and went back out to the lounge, I started kssing him trying to wake him up and he kinda responded, I went down on him to wake him up. I took his hand and woke him up. I got him to stand up and he followed me to my room. we then had sex (both parties willingly).
A few days later he said that he although he enjoyed me going down on him, he felt violated and if he had done that to me he would have been in heaps of trouble.

I thought it must of been ok cos when I woke him we willingly had sex with me. I feel really bad now, your thoughts?

i would really like some opinions?



Cloe3

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @AnneBennett: THANK YOU!!!

I'm a little disturbed at how naming the attack for what it was - rape - is somehow seen as analogous to handing your power over to the rapist. If someone snatched your bag on the sidewalk, would you feel less of a person for reporting the theft?

A rapist's real power is in the silence he enforces on his victim. If we can't talk about such events - no matter how drunken or confused - and name the perps as the perps they are, we are tacitly agreeing to our treatment. And that ain't on.

vocalstylings

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> I'm sorry, did you just say that anyone who reads this article because they were confused or outraged by the term "gray rape" and wanted to come here and see it for themselves has a sexual identity crisis?

limbomonkey

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @DeeJayQueue: so what's your take on the "date rape" drink?

nyobserver

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> I definitely had one bad experience in college after too many drinks, but calling it "rape" is unfair to the guy and unfair to women who are actually victims. I got drunk, very very drunk, and made a stupid decision. I said "no" and definitely felt major regret and initially some anger towards the guy, but rape? Nope. Personal responsibility has to come into play somewhere - for both parties. Suffice it to say, in the many MANY drunken nights that I have had since then, I have never again put myself in that situation.

cabber

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> I don't know about you, but if I EVER find myself to have been violated because I was too drunk, incoherent, and dazed to properly speak for myself two things will happen; First I will make sure I NEVER put myself in that position again and second, I'll find the violater and make sure he's put into the same incoherent and dazed state with a baseball bat. Word.

cyberkitty7

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> I'm kind of okay with the idea of "grey rape." There's so much cultural baggage associated with rape that sometimes we don't want to be That Stereotype. I, like almost everyone here, have totally been there and it wasn't the bogeyman in the alley and it still fucking sucked. But it didn't destroy me or change me as a person in any meaningful way. I gave a big fuck off to the person who invaded my shit but it didn't make me scared to walk at night. It didn't make me feel slutty or like a bad person. It didn't make me feel like a rape victim.
So, yeah, I say I was "sorta raped" and though it pisses me off that Cosmopolitan is using this delineation to dilute the fucked-up-ness of anyone touching my body without my permission, I still think it's okay to have a word that doesn't make us helpless.

Captain Sassypants

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> Elder advice on rape prevention- just get to be 20 years older. Teenagers and 20 somethings are prime rape bait; keep you locked up in burkas or jail all the guys that age and rape would decline lots. Otherwise develop your sisterhood and work on your screaming- I've scared of a few assaults that way.

PeggyOldHag

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> You know what I hate? People (such as the crazy idiot from Cosmo) who want to make excuses for the wee wittle guys who were simply "too drunk" to realize that they were raping someone.

If you're THAT drunk, chances are you can't get it up, much less hold someone down and rape them.

Naturally, confusing situations do arise. You can mistake someone's drunken moaning for a genuine invitation, especially if you're drunk yourself, for example. But as soon as you hear the word "No," you better stop. Same goes for trying to get it on with someone who's passed out. You're not entitled to anyone's body, and if you're that incredibly horny, then jerking off in the bathroom is the honourable thing to do.

In light of all this, what needs to be changed is the culture that dictates that men just HAVE to get laid at all costs, and that they somehow have the RIGHT to do this with any female who happens to wander into their line of sight.

NataliaAntonova

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> Trackback

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @AnikaG: I really don't think Cosmo meant to mitigate the fact that it's rape; I think they're acknowledging that legally and emotionally, it can be difficult to define. So a woman doesn't feel like calling her situation rape. That's up to her, and it's kind of a gray area. Technically, it might be, but in her head, it's kind of nebulous. Legally, it's rape but not provable. That's gray, too.
I honestly don't think Cosmo means it's not rape, not reprehensible, not wrong. I think they mean it's difficult to define both for the victim and the law. I could be cutting them too much slack, but I also read the article. It didn't offend me.

sequined

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> I really don't understand how any situation where a woman says she doesn't want to have sex - more than once - doesn't count as rape. I think "gray rape" is another shitty term coined by Cosmo that, in the ultimate analysis, doesn't make sense. I mean, either you say yes or you say no. Terms like "gray rape" only make sexual misunderstandings more likely.

Also, and I'm not trying to be mean just honest, if you have had sex with guys while drunk it would be easier to rationalize this drunken rape as close kin to other consensual experiences. However, as a shoutout to BiscuitDoughJones and that poor girl who lost her virginity through rape, I have to say I identify. I try never to get that drunk, but I also have friends who have been drugged, or who have honestly just not understood their body's capacity for alcohol. They don't want to have drunk sex, they normally wouldn't, so what is so "gray" about the fact that some guy got them to the point they couldn't say no and took advantage? It's because women are willing to accept unconscious sex as their fault that otherwise normal guys think they can get away with it.

Seriously, having sex with someone whose judgment you know to be impaired is immoral. Doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman. It's not always rape - sometimes they say yes - but it's still immoral.

AnikaG

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @AmericanPsychocat: Yeah, sorry about that. My boss made me cranky.

This is, unfortunately, a pattern with my boss. Sigh.

KurticusMaximus

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> I take responsibility for my own actions, and being an equal opportunities kind of girl, I expect a man to take responsibility for his actions too. Most of 'em do, but some of them rape people, which is not so cool. Capish?

bowleserised

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> I should apologize for my last comment. instead of using a hurtful word, it would have sufficed to say, "clean up your act."

enoughropers

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> yuck. "grey rape" makes it sound like an alien abduction story, and if you say it fast enough, it sounds like "grape."

if you say it medium speed, "it sounds like, "I'm a drunk whore."

enoughropers

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @AnneBennett: You're right. Being high or drunk doesn't make the victim responsible for the event. It does make the victim and the assailant responsible for everything around the event, the setting the circumstances, etc.

For everyone else calling me names out there, let me just lay it out square:

When I was 17 and still coming to grips with being a homo, it was tough finding people to talk to and be friendly with bla bla bla. I met a guy who was nice, we talked for a while, went back to his place and hung out for a bit. I was about to get up and leave and he handed me a glass of scotch. I wanted to be sophisticated like him, I wanted him to like me and I didn't want an awkward situation, so I took the drink. 1 drink became 3, became 5, etc. Next thing I know everything is sorta blurry, I don't feel so good and I'm getting screwed from behind on the bed. I didn't know what else to do so I waited till after it was over, he fell asleep and I left. I wasn't sure if that's how things went normally, if I'd just been raped or if I'd said yes or no or anything. I chalked it up to "lets not get drunk enough to let something like that happen again."

Fast forward a couple years, I'm at the bar with a couple friends, drinking Jack and Cokes out of root beer glasses. Way too many of them later, there's hands down pants and all kinds of things going on. I end up at someone's house who I didn't know, had no idea who brought me there and even less idea how I was getting home. Fortunately I had drunk dick so I went and passed out on the couch. Again, was I taken advantage of? Hells yes. But I don't think that they would have acted that way, nor would I have responded that way were we all sober.

I'm saying now, as I have been from my first comment, that we should all be more proactively responsible for our actions instead of waiting for something bad to happen. Don't drink to a point where your judgement is impaired unless you have good friends around you to help you. Don't do drugs that will alter your mood, lower your inhibitions and heighten your libido unless you're willing to accept the consequences for those actions.
Drinking and doing drugs takes control away from you. The loss of control that makes you feel good and happy and invincible is the same loss of control that makes you unable to fend off advances from lecherous types or avoid situations where you might get taken advantage of. It makes you not question the consequences of your immediate decisions.

Is it the rapists fault that you got raped? Yes. Of course it is. But it's not the rapists fault that you got yourself in a position where it was possible. (I'm not talking about forced violent assault-type rape here.) It's your fault that you drank too much or did that bump or whatever, and went home with that guy.

DeeJayQueue

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> This thread makes me sad, especially after knowing how many people believe false rape accusations outnumber unreported cases. How many guys are going to keep sticking it in to sleeping drunk girls before one presses charges -- maybe he gets rough this time, or gives her VD -- only, oops, he's got no prior history? And maybe the judge reads Cosmo and think she's overreacting.

There shouldn't be a problem calling a rape a rape. If the worry is sending a friend-of-a-friend to jail or associating oneself with sobbing victims who spend their lives in therapy, then the only solutions I can see are getting guys to stop thinking women's bodies are there for their pleasure, consent or no, and letting women know getting raped doesn't make them 'tainted.'

HeatherNumber1

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @DEEJAYQUEUE: You asshole. I hope they kick you off this site. "Don't like getting raped? Don't drink so much that you can't do anything about it."?!!! Fuck you!! People like you are the reason why rape victims find it so hard to face their attackers.

katastic

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> Also, he doesn't admit any fear or real regret on his part. It sounds like he just thought it was probably a bad idea for two friends to hook up. He doesn't seem to think that his body was violated by an unwanted sex act.

jobsworth

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @Anonymous Lobbyist: You kind of missed my point or maybe I wasn't clear enough. If Bottomless Cup were passed out drunk and she took advantage of him, then sure, it would have been rape. However he admits that he was drunk and horny and went ahead and did it. That isn't rape. It's drunken, consensual sex.

jobsworth

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @jobsworth: Actually, that's completely untrue, for both men and women. They don't get to claim that we were wet (or horny) and thus it wasn't rape, and neither could the woman in question claim that BottomlessCup was able to perform (and/or horny) and thus it wasn't rape if she forced him or did it after he was passed out. Consent doesn't stem from the reactions of your genitals under the law.


But, also, what an asshole thing to say to someone who may have been sexually assaulted, regardless of gender. Would you also like to ask any of us that have admitted to being assaulted if we were wet at the time? Would you have asked if it was a same sex rape? Does physical arousal make it okay for someone to force someone else? What happened to the whole "no means no" thing?

Megan Carpentier

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @jobsworth: Men can't control whether or not their dicks get hard. Just because he was turned on doesn't mean he wanted to have sex. A person's physiological response can say one thing, but if he/she says "no" don't go there.

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> um, and we need to also start educating each other about boundaries/respect. When you're shitfaced and he's horny is a bad time to begin.

Lost in the Miss Teen USA "build a future for our children" b.s. such as, was the fact that in the opening number the contestants were um, dancing (making cheesy private-school-girl gyrations?) to Chenelle's lovely lyrics about getting your clothes ripped off altogether by the rough & tough dj (whee!) and then being stalked by a jealous, knife-wielding boyfriend, but it's all good because she convinced him they were just friends.

It was a lil disconcerting to hear that drowned out by "Caightl'yinn, Lizard Lick North Carolina, 16."

anyway, there was a legal case years and years ago about this -- I can't remember what they decided, but I believe the guy was convicted... so why isn't this settled now?

jeweltones

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @BottomlessCup: Did you stick your dick in her? Because if so, I can only assume you were turned-on enough to have an erection. From what I understand, rape doesn't make the victim horny.

jobsworth

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @yarnmule: As far as I know, young people are NOT educated about the importance & meaning of consent. They're just told "This a condom. But save sex for marriage." Sexual assault and rape is essentially ignored. Or "rape" is defined so narrowly (think: man breaks into a woman's house and beats her to a pulp/rapes her) that boys and young men think coersion and fucking passed-out girls is A-OK. This country needs to start educating young people about sexual boundaries and respect.

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @BottomlessCup: Not buying it. It's a good point that you're trying to make because rape perpetrated against men is largely unacknowledged, only compounding the emotional ramifications. But look at your word choice: "I had sex with her anyway." When you're raped you're not having sex with anyone. Someone is having sex with you. Another commenter close to the beginning of the thread said it perfectly: "He had sex with my body."

molecule

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> The testimony here regarding many personal experiences is not what's "gray" about "gray rape." If you know you said "no," but he forced himself on you, it's rape. The "gray" that I see comes from the legal side. How do you reform the law to punish this? It comes down to he said/she said, and if someone was drunk at the time, in a court of law their word is not taken as strongly. It's not fair, but that's how the court has to operate. If you were drunk at a certain time, your memories of that time cannot necessarily be trusted. That's what's gray about this. The only surefire way to stop this is to have the law say that if she's had more than enough drinks to be over the legal limit, then she's incapable of giving consent. Then, you make the law clear that if a woman is legally drunk, then tough shit guys, you're taking the risk that she could nail you legally for rape. Without something strict like that, it becomes "gray" and the law is ineffective.

belvedere

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @BottomlessCup: @bowleserised:

That's really the crux of it. If you couldn't stop her for any reason (you were passed out or incapacitated, she was too strong, whatever) then frankly yeah, that would be rape.

And if that's how it happened, then yes, you should report it, except you probably won't, because you are embarrased/ashamed/want to forget it happened. And if you did report it, you would probably have a hard time proving it, and would have to live through it over and over again during a trial. That's why rapes don't get reported.

And if that's not how it happened, and you participated actively despite knowing that you probably shouldn't, then she's, frankly, kind of a selfish bitch, but not a rapist.

Another question for the few men who may have stuck around despite my/our screaming at them while blinded with anger. Are you guys taught in sex ed, or anywhere else, to get clear consent? I know the "no means no" message is pretty much out there, but are you ever told that if she doesn't clearly say yes, you shouldn't do it?

yarnmule

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> ok not gonna read ALLL these so probably nobody'll read mine either, but --

if you took somebody's keys, wallet and jewelry while they were passed out drunk, and told the cops "hey, it's ok with him/her -- I, um, have a feeling about it!" They'd either arrest you for theft or section you for insanity. It's not given to you if you take it while somebody's incapacitated.

Oh, and to beat a dead metaphor? Wearing nice jewelry doesn't mean you "want" to be robbed.

On the other hand, I kind of think it's dumbassery to get so shitfaced you're non compus menti, especially around people you don't know (ie bars etc). I mean, we all know shit happens.

jeweltones

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> Sooo, I killed someone the other day, good thing he/she was passed out, 'cuz that's only GREY murder.

If I'm too drunk to know that I'm going to run over someone with my car, it's not really my fault, right? I mean, I had no idea they didn't know I was coming.

Turboner

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> By 'I had sex with her anyway' do you mean that she pinned you down or you were so drunk that you were physically incapable of preventing her from doing what she did (or not strong enough to push her away)?

It's shit when *anyone* doesn't respect a request not to force the issue, but I'm curious as to what exactly 'I had sex with her anyway' boiled down to.

bowleserised

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> Non-hypothetical situation:
I am a guy in my late 20s. Last weekend, after a night of heavy, heavy drinking, I ended up in the apartment of a woman with whom I'm good friends. There's been a long history of sexual tension between us and, after the consumption of additional drinks, we ended up having sex. I distinctly remember clearly objecting, "we shouldn't do this", (to which she responded, "oh, come on",) and then "[her name], no." But I had sex with her anyway. I was drunk and horny and I did it, even though I knew before, during, and after that it was a bad idea, which I would regret.
Judging from this comment thread this was clear-cut, no-bullshit, non-gray rape, yes? I should call the police, right? I just want to be sure. I mean, it's not about gender roles, correct?



BottomlessCup

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @Noasalira: Thank you. Couldn't have said that better myself. I think it's well understood (at least I hope it is) that you can hate George Bush/Focus on the Family and still think "Girls Gone Wild" and drinking to the point that you have effectively physically/psychologically incapacitated yourself (equal to putting on handcuffs and stumbling around)...it's not good. Nothing entitles someone to force themselves on another person, but in the short term, there's nothing wrong with protecting yourself and making a point to stay in control of the situation as best you can.

marie123

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> Is it still rape if he has a donut around his penis? Or is it only when it's a hair scrunchie?

weedie

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @badteaparty: You don't have to define yourself as a victim in order to define a rape as a rape.

AnneBennett

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> That's why it's BETTER to remain sober or you can physically push him away and shout "NO!" Don't let yourself be vulnerable - because that's the excuse rapists use, "She never said no or anything, she just laid there (drunk or passed out or drugged)." But the thing is, rapists DO NOT ask for your permission.

I don't think this kind of rape is the girl's fault. It's always the rapists fault, no matter if the girl is dressed and acted (dancing sexily, flirting, kissing any part except sexual parts) provocatively or even if she is a prostitute. If a guy forces the girl and does not get her consent to have sex - that is rape!

There are times when we are sexually harrassed/raped and we deny it because we do not want to be associated with weakness, we are not that weak to be raped. Everyone copes with their own way but denying it would not help in the long run. We need to be brave to get back justice. Even if we do not want the rapist to suffer for his/her actions, we should let others know so that they would not fall prey to him/her in the future.

justinemj

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @DeeJayQueue:

You said:
How is it any different when you get drunk or high and don't have the judgement or ability to either avoid or fight off a rape?

Inability to FIGHT OFF a rapist doesn't make someone responsible for BEING RAPED!

The responsibility for rape lies squarely and solely with the rapist.

A woman's ability or lack of ability to stop a rape, whether due to relative lack of physical strength or due to intoxication, doesn't make the MAN who is commiting the rape any less of a rapist.

What is wrong with you?

AnneBennett

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @f-words: F-words, thank you! You said:

The fact that being raped didn't destroy my life doesn't make rape okay. The fact that being raped really does destroy the lives of some - that doesn't make them weak.

Women who have been raped don't have to be doomed to a life of sadness and despair for the rape to be WRONG. MOre power to women who go on to have happy, fulfilling lives after being raped by a man. But you don't have to pretend that the man who raped you isn't a rapist in order to be happy.

My rape wasn't grey. Yes, I had been drinking. Yes, I had been attracted to him. But I said NO. The fact that he fucked me anyway while I was passed out doesn't make it any less of a rape.

I talked to a male friend about it a few years ago, and he still thought it wasn't really rape -- especially because if I was passed out drunk and thus literally "not feeling any pain", what was the harm, really? I asked how he'd feel if I shoved a Coke bottle up his ass while he was passed out drunk, but then politely removed it after he woke up and protested? If it didn't physically hurt him going in, was it no problem?

He changed his mind real quick after that analogy. He felt like he had the right, drunk or not, to protect his ass from unwanted intrusion. Why some people feel like our vaginas don't deserve the same respect is beyond me.

"Sticking it in" is rape unless the person into which you're sticking something consents, period.

AnneBennett

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> Happy to have gotten my computer keyboard replaced, so here goes:

Rape is rape, never an excuse for it.

I can't look without wincing at the drunken dance of women who liquor themselves up and expect to be sexy to men, rather than be repulsive to them because they are drunk, and the men who liquor themselves up and expect their drunken advances on women to be warmly received.

Those kinds of environments are prime breeding grounds for encouraging men to see women as meat to be used and abused, prime hunting grounds for rapists and abusers of all kinds, and prime masochistic arenas for women who aren't nearly as aware, confident, self-loving, proud and protective of themselves as they claim they are, and who are using alcohol to mold themselves into some porn-image, girl-girl kissing image that they feel men find attractive. Just like the men who are getting drunk to 'hunt' women, to be aggressive, oversexed, 'confident' in a way that this society has convinced them women like them to be - he has to make his 'score,' he has to have his stories to tell, he has to prove his manhood, etc.

Let's stop pretending that all/most men are rapists ready to attack women who 'slip a little' and that every drunken scenario is without question a rape comparable to a woman being dragged off the street by a stranger, etc. Forget about defending men, let's think about not demeaning the situations of women who, sober or drunk, stranger or acquaintance rape, are real victims of assault, and not be so quick to drape ourselves in a cloak of 'rape victim' not in truth but more to avoid the uncomfortable glare of our own destructive behaviors. Please, let's not contribute to lack of seriousness given to rape.

If I had sons, I'd want them to reject the idea of drinking to get drunk, to never abuse anyone regardless of their ability to get away with it, nor to see drunken women as attractive partners. Hard to do in a society that encourages all, and abundance of women and men who'd reject those values as 'too conservative' I'd want my daughters to have the same values, and reject falling into the popular cultural notions of 'girls gone wild' as having anything to do with freedom, attractiveness, feminism or self-respect.

The issue at hand is why so many women equate freedom with being able to stumble around drunk in public settings? And this idea they are oppressed because men can do that without risking rape, and they can't? What kind of sick thinking is that? Getting falling down, black-out drunk is negative for anyone, male or female, puts the person at risk for doing negative things and having negative things done to them, sexual and non-sexual. No one has the right to rape, rob, humiliate or otherwise assault someone just because they are drunk and an easy target.

Isn't it a problem when so many people, male and female, seem so obsessive about repeatedly to get so drunk they can't function, get sick, pass-out, despite all the risks to themselves and others? Rapes? Fights? Accidents? Drunk-driving? All the ways people take to protect themselves in other scenarios, the good self-protection and the narcissistic preoccupations with health, appearance, clothing, etc., yet being bumbling drunk among the rabble? Week after week, same drunken habits, same risk-taking?

Granted, I wasn't socialized to see getting drunk as a hobby, so I can't easily equate it with 'freedom' and don't think it is the same thing as wearing a mini-skirt, or being free to walk without a burqha or any of the myriad 'islamic/non-western women suffering' images you want to toss out there for shallow-minded comparison. Yet, if the hypocrisy is really too much to avoid -- and too dangerous to avoid.

And if you can't avoid confusing any of this with excusing rape, then too bad for you.

noasalira

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> Yeah, it's happened to me. Once was absolutely sexual assault (although I never reported it and just chalked it up to lesson learned)and there were a couple of other dubious encounters as well. Booze+Men=Problems.

The one sure-fire R-word experience I was 15, drunk and saying "No." He was 24 and didn't listen. Bastard. I told my boyfriend and eventually he "forgave" me.

As for my other.. grayer encounters, I just don't dwell on them and now stay far, far away from men when drunk unless I actually want to have sex with them. Which sometimes I do. But if I'm uncomfortable with anything less than the whole she-bang I really, really need to stay away.

In my experience trying to "just hook-up" or even "just have a conversation" can evolve damn quickly into me naked, which always leads to guilty, regrettable sex. And really if you're naked and on a bed with a guy it's not the easiest thing in the world to just back out of the deal. Which isn't rape but somehow it's still not generally the happiest half memory the next day.

azi

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> BREEKILLEDGEORGE AT 04:04 PM --- are you kidding? Calling a man who raped you a rapist empowers him?

The fact of having been raped by a man doesn't mean you have to live a life of miserable victimhood. It's owning your reality, and it's putting the responsibility for rape on the RAPIST, where it belongs.

You don't have to be "sulky" or "woe is me" to hold a man who rapes a woman responsible for his rape. It's so sad that you think so.

Giving a man a free pass on raping you isn't strong. Calling a rapist a rapist takes strength.

As for Moe's experience, the man who "stuck it in" her is not just a douchebag. He's a rapist.

AnneBennett

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> Coming late to this fascinating comment thread, so hope I won't be too repetitive. Or too long!

Rape is always wrong (and I don't think the majority of men who rape passed-out women are equally drunk; I think that's a straw man argument to muddy the waters). The essential problem with the "they're both drunk but women have a free pass, unfair!" argument is this: both people chose to get drunk. ONE person chose to assault. THAT is the difference. My responsibility for myself and being violated by someone else are separate issues. There are gray areas in all parts of life, but as a society we've decided that on the whole this is one where the grey areas are not as compelling as the damage done to the raped. Hence it is a crime.

But I have a problem with some comments here: with all this talk of labeling and choosing labels, isn't it implicitly judgmental to use "victimhood" and "empowering" to describe different ways of living with a trauma? I straight-up hate the term "victimhood" -- in fact, if you've been raped, you are a victim, as terrible as that is. And if you show it, even if it is painful for everyone to watch (Tori Amos!), you shouldn't be labeled the equivalent of a self-pitying hysteric. Maybe you are, but rape didn't make you so. Nor should you be expected to come through to a place of greater strength. Some people can, good for them. Some people can't. Do they deserve less compassion for that? I think "empowerment" can be just as much a defensive way of dealing with trauma as any other... usually the best we can do is try to accept that something terrible and unfair happened to us. Women can be masochists and men can be masochists, but people who have been raped shouldn't be expected to be more psychologically astute than others because they were violated.

solongfarewell

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> Trackback

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> wow.
this, sadly has happened to me many times, and I never even thought about it as rape until my therapist said it was..because I did't consent-I blamed myself because I was drunk & blacked out. "Oh was drunk, and he fucked me, he's gross I won't tell anyone".though one time I was slipped a roofie on top it, only to wake up next to this fucker with my feet tied together with a phone cord and my ass hurting. I remember saying no..and then I was out...escaping through a window at a high school party, i was making out with a guy only to open my eyes to 5 other guys in the room about to tackle me-till this day I am unsure if I've blocked out anything that happened..I just deleted about 4 other instances (i'm about to vomit thinking of this greasy arab fuck with two much cologne), but let's just say it has been a hellacious battle for me, I've had very scary times and all in the name of being the life of a party. I'm fucking crying now. So rape? Perhaps. Yes, it is, but like someone said above, I guess I never put it toghether like that because it wasn't a man in the bushes.

this probably makes no sense, but anyway it feels good to write it because i've never even told my friends.


peachkellipop

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> No means No. Before, during, drunk, sober, friend, stranger, pick up in a bar. If she says no, she says no. And if the sex continues after she says no, it is rape. She said no. He didn't listen. That's called rape.
And while I'm fired up and we are all power to the women...this is still America. Get a gun. Learn how to use it. Take a concealed carry class. Get your permit. Then carry it. If you are a single woman, living alone in the city, it is ignorant to put your trust in anyone or anything but yourself. You may not like guns, but the bad guy isn't going to like them either. I'm 5 '1 and tiny; no match against any bad guy intent on hurting me. My job carries me to all kinds of places at all kinds of hours. I can stick my head in the sand or I can get real. I've had my permit for eight years. I got it when my ex was literally threatening to kill me, because if he couldn't have me, neither could anyone else. I thought about hiding some more, being afraid some more, looking over my shoulder in fear some more, like I had been doing for six years. And then decided I had enough of that stupidity. Cops couldn't be there all the time, and if I needed protecting, then who better to do it than me. That's feminine power. I'm not a vigilante, and very, very few people know I carry. I'm a very petite, baby blue eyed Southern blonde. I look like a china doll, fragile and weak. But if a bad guy thinks I'm an easy mark because of my size and appearance, he's gonna be surprised, and I'm going to be alive another day.


flyoverstate

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @TiaMaria: Where the hell did you learn your "facts" about "most rapists?"

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @TripsyDaily: all rape is at least in part violent in it's disregard for a individual.

I really don't think a crime can be defined by individual response to it -- even the victim's response. The whole point of laws is that ideally there is uniform punishment. Assuming the victim decides to prosecute.

That said we need to make a distinction between a regrettable night of bad sex and rape. I've had both. My rape was violent. My night of sex that shouldn't have happened and could technically be called rape because I said no was not particularly violent. I know it was a bad situation but even though I know I said no I don't consider it rape. However that doesn't mean that that situation wouldn't have greater emotional and physical ramifications for some one else. Why would I want to call that man or woman's experience a "gray area"?

On the other hand an acquaintence of mine had her first sexual experience in her late twenties. Like many first experiences it was fairly unpleasant. After her initial consent, when she said no he climbed off her and went home. She tried to tell me that was rape. Sorry sweetheart there's nothing gray about that, and you're just making it harder for the rest of us.

molecule

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @sequined: wow @ the "at your college...consent" thing. That blows my mind.

Blair Waldorf (formerly socalsnarkstress)

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> And I guess I also should say that I would never come forward because I literally can't support my case. I don't know if it was rape because I don't know what happened. All I know for sure first hand is that the guy is a jerk who would rather take a drunk girl home than walk her back to her dorm.
Even if we had certainly had sex, I don't know if I would have reported it. I might treat it as a lesson learned and save myself a lot of embarrassment and semi-public attention. I would have also had to admit to sneaking into a bar and drinking illegally, which no 19-year-old wants to do. You also get a lot of other people involved, which, at a smaller school, is terrifying by itself.
Finally, although I've grown to be kind of repulsed by the guy, we were friendly before the incident and had common friends. I didn't want to see him in jail or expelled. It wouldn't have seemed commensurate to what he did. Even if legally it would be. It's a complicated issue.
So shame isn't the only factor preventing women from reporting rapes, especially acquaintance/date rapes.

sequined

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> At my college, if a girl has given any kind of consent at any point, including kissing or holding hands earlier in the evening, it's considered consent for everything. No one has ever been expelled for rape or sexual assault. That perpetuates a woman's feeling that she's somehow to blame if she gets drunk, changes her mind, flirted with him before, etc.
Once, when I was 19, I drank way too much at the bar (illegally), and went home with an acquaintance. He gave me another drink (as if I hadn't had more than enough already). I vaguely remember him asking me to walk in a straight line through the kitchen, and have an even more vague impression of us being in his bed. I have no idea, to this day, what exactly happened, though I went to Planned Parenthood the next day and got plan B and an STD test just in case. I thought I was just an idiot and didn't dwell on it, but a friend sublet a room from him and reported that the guy bragged about bringing home drunk girls and "making sure they were okay" by asking them to walk in a straight line in the kitchen. Even though I still don't know what happened, there's not a doubt in my mind that that guy is a predator.
But who's going to come forward when the school completely discourages women from doing so?

sequined

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> The majority of sexual assault cases are not reported. This was believed to be because of the "shame" associated with being assaulted, but it's actually because most women do not know what constitutes sexual assault. Cosmo is not helping this matter in the slightest, although I'm sure they think they're making a huge contribution to vagina owners everywhere.

DonchaBongo

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> Here's another dude you can direct hate at.

I will preface everything by saying I don't buy the "askin' for it" argument usually tied to clothing, drunkeness, or perceived promiscuity. Additionally, anyone who deliberately has sex with the unconscious is getting no defense from me.

What I could never understand years ago when the drunk = no consent topic came up is the following:

If a girl is "drunk" (by some definition), she is no longer legally capable of giving consent, which absolves her from responsibility for anything thereafter under the law. Meaning, no matter what she says/does, she can charge you with it the next morning.

Unfortunately as the guy, it seems you're not legally absolved from the responsibilities of your actions if you're drunk. Meaning, if we're both drunk (off our asses), I'm responsible for anything my remaining 4 brain cells think is a good idea, but she's got a free pass?

Mad_Science

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @Jezebelmoe: I'm not saying that you dealt with your experience "wrong" or anything, and thank you for sharing your story. My point is just that while you didn't have long-lasting traumatic effects from your experience, other women might, and I don't think it's fair to say that they're having a harder time dealing with it because they care too much about a guy's opinion, or they're not strong enough to move on (as some of the commenters above say).

Meanmllemustard

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> The most depressing thing is out of this whole comment thread--with so many personal stories of rape experience-- is that there is not one person who took legal action and tried to prosecute, let alone was successful. And that makes me feel ill, not just about the number of men who think they have a right to treat women's bodies as they please, but about the legal system. Because the awful catch-22 is that unless more women are willing to try and bring their rapists to legal justice, the less disincentives there are for these men to change their behaviour; but of course, with conviction rates and the prosecution process what it is, few sensible women would put themselve through that. There are areas in England where about 0.8% of rapes end with a successful conviction, and we don't need the Freakonomics guys to tell us what impact that state of affairs has on both men and women's assessment of risk and reward.

And don't get me started on the Amnesty 'Attitudes towards rape' statistics...

depressedpony

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @KurticusMaximus: Wow.

AmericanPsychocat

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @KurticusMaximus: Gee, I wonder if any women can relate to your last comment?

ThaKadinskyPapers

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @AmericanPsychocat: I still don't get it, could you maybe use smaller syllables? You see, I'm male, and therefore stupid and slow on the uptake. Thank you for taking the extra time to help me understand, though.

KurticusMaximus

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @AmericanPsychocat:
You just said it better than I ever could. Bravo!


BeSarcastic

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @RainbowBrite:
Agreed! I'm all about edumacation. If a man can be held responsible for murder when he's been drunk, the same goes for rape. And letting men know this and helping them to identify/recognize signs that they're about to go over the line will benefit everyone.


BeSarcastic

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @KurticusMaximus: I guess I have to spell it out: the point was that in *any* other situation, being drunk when you make a stupid mistake/do a crime makes the situation far worse, not more forgivable. The punishment is more severe. It is only our strange twisting of logic when it comes to women's rights that allows the public to say, "oh he was drunk, he didn't mean to rape her".

AmericanPsychocat

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @BeSarcastic: Absolutely. It is NEVER the victim/survivor's fault, whether drunk, flirtatious, skimpily dressed, etc. But I think we agree that that doesn't mean there aren't things to be done to help prevent it.

I still disagree with you on your other point. For sure, alcohol won't make a "normal" man ambush a woman in a parking lot and rape her. But I still think it can blur their judgment and not be able to tell, for instance, just how drunk a girl is at a party. It's still his fault (if you kill someone when you're drunk you're still responsible), but I think it could potentially help prevent rapes if we make otherwise normal guys realize that excessive alcohol can make you do really really ugly things, including date rape. In my opinion, that's not at all letting them off the hook Mel Gibson-style.

RainbowBrite

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @yarnmule: I agree totally that some rapes are about a guy thinking he's just found an opportunity to have some easy sex while some are consciously about hate and punishment. I don't think it splits down the serial rapist/one off rapist lines though, but I know what you mean, like psycho/asshole. I think it goes without saying that even the so-called assholes are doing it for the same reasons as the psychos, they're just not crazy enough to admit it.

TiaMaria

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @TiaMaria: Yeah seriously. There are too many types of pervs out there to have a fool-proof way of avoiding them. It really pisses me off that as women we HAVE to be so much more vigilant when we're out. It's so unfair >:(

RainbowBrite

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @RainbowBrite:

I agree that everyone should act responsibly. In an ideal world. For both parties, that means not drinking so much that your judgment is impaired. It's just safer. But does getting raped because you (female) were too drunk to give consent mean that you should bear the responsibility of the rape? Nope. Not even slightly. Why? Because the rape was - and always is - someone else's choice.

Alcohol definitely has the ability to impair judgment, but it does not make a man a rapist. If a man rapes you while you're blacked out, he likely has other entitlement issues without drinking.

Alcohol seems a poor excuse for a behavior so violating and clearly wrong.


BeSarcastic

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> I just can't agree that what happened to Moe is the same as being grabbed in an alley or having someone break into your house and rape you. It doesn't mean the guy isn't an asshole, but it is different. If you don't think so, ask yourself which situation you would prefer. I think sometimes the situation can feel completely brutal and violating (the woman whose boyfriend held her down for anal sex sounds pretty traumatic to me) and sometimes it can feel vaguely icky as in Moe's story and you just move on. I don't think trying to force someone to define herself as a victim when she chooses not to do so herself is a big boost for feminism.


badteaparty

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @RainbowBrite: I see that now. Shit. I mean it depends on what type of perv you are trying to discourage, but just getting into it..it's like guerilla warfare...who wants to be CIA-level aware just to go out of a night? I must say it makes me think the points made about male education on this thread seem much more of a way to get positive results. Women with male children: over to you.

TiaMaria

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @TiaMaria:

Not to start another tangent that will piss people off, but rape is not necessarily about sex. Agreed, date rape is frequently just a sexual situation gone too far. But in serial rapists, especially, it is often about asserting violent control, and humiliating the victim. The sex is more of a way to accomplish that than the end goal.

yarnmule

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @feistyred:

I didn't think I picked on him so much as pointed out that non-consensual is just that. If you felt picked on though, token man, sorry. I maybe got a little too peeved at the "take responsiblity" comments to see your post clearly.

And of course there are things you can do that may help keep you safe. But being careful is no guarantee that you will, in fact, be safe. That's what makes my blood boil about this whole thing. We can be told all day to be careful, don't dress provocatively, don't get too drunk, blah blah blah. But we are still one bad break away from something awful happening. And then we will be blamed for not being careful ENOUGH.

Everybody makes bad decisions sometimes. Women just tend to end up in life/psyche threatening situations for it more often.


yarnmule

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @BeSarcastic: Also, I mean, if it's reasonable to expect men to "hold off" if the area is grey, why is it not reasonable to expect women to take steps to make sure there IS no grey area.

Also, a sorority sister was date raped at a party and she said she was totally blacked out. I saw her that night, and while she was clearly drunk, she was coherent and walking around. So she was obviously drunk, but she didn't seem blacked out or completely incoherent. Obviously, being passed out or unable to speak or stand means a woman can't give consent. But where is the line? And how do you tell how drunk someone is?

I just don't see anything wrong with sending the message that if you're wasted you may not be able to control or remember how you are acting and if you gave consent.

RainbowBrite

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @TiaMaria: See I've heard the opposite. That talking on a cell phone makes you look distracted and unaware of your surroundings. I mean, I guess there's a lot of advice out there -- who knows what to think.

@BeSarcastic: I was TOTALLY NOT saying wearing skimpy clothes has ANYTHING to do with being raped. Re-reading my comment I can see how it might have come off like that. I DO think, though, that being drunk could make a guy not able to tell that what he's doing is wrong. Not in an "oops my dick fell in" kind of way, but in an "ooh she's so into this" or "she's just kind of tipsy, like me!" sort of way. Basically, impaired judgment and misreading the situation such that if he were sober, he would have recognized the situation as dangerous territory.

RainbowBrite

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> Reason number 586 that I hate Cosmo.

franceshasbeen

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @SpaghettiStreetwalker: Um, do you think perhaps this guy put something in your beers to *make* you woozy after two? Shitty, shitty experience...

bowleserised

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> If a guy is worried that a woman is too drunk and may not remember anything later, how about not having sex with her? If it's so gray and he's unsure, how's about holding off? I call BS on folks saying that guys may be so far gone, too, that -- whoops! dick fell in! -- and he has sex in inebriated condition. A large majority of guys that far gone would not be able to get it up, and they would also black out. So, that says to me that they're conscious enough to know better.

Alcohol does not a rapist make. Let's stop blaming drunkeness. Didn't we all laugh when Mel Gibson blamed alcogol on his anti-Semitic remarks? Cuz it's BS.

And, wow, wearing skimpy clothes is partly to blame?? Is this or is this not the year 2007?

I find some of these comments horrifying.

BeSarcastic

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @RainbowBrite: I'm not so sure about that one. I would say it is better not to make a statement that sounds like a conversation starter. Most rapists (most, not all)don't go out to rape someone, they just want to have sex and will take ANY tiny bit of nothing as a come on. The oldies are the best: take out your phone and pretend to make a call to your husband etc. He may think 'her phone wouldn't work here', but he doesn't KNOW that, and it might just be enough to put the opportunist asshole off.

TiaMaria

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @AmericanPsychocat: That comparison can't work, because murder is never consensual. Well, unless you count really freaky S&M stuff, but that's a whole different thing.

@yarnmule: Dude. The point is, if both parties are drunk out of their mind, then neither can provide consent. Therefore it is nonconsensual, and therefore it is rape, but it is also different from a sober person abusing a drunk person. Hence "gray area."

KurticusMaximus

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> Rape. Definitely rape. I think the moral standard should be not just consent, but enthusiastic, continual consent. Not sure how that would translate legally, but "he/she didn't say 'no'" isn't good enough.

For the decade or so that it was fun to look for drunken sex; there were 3 nights where consent was given (or implied) then rescinded. While I'm sure I got all pouty, I couldn't continue. I wouldn't want to, even completely loaded & horny. Most guys have done the same. I think the guys that do so are special assholes that deserve the title: rapist.

raoul j raoul

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @SarahMC: Yeah yeah I'm with you on that. At my college, though, some of my male friends felt the pendulum swang too far. It really isn't fair to tell men they're rapists if they have sex with a drunk girl (how drunk? what if she's acting into it but then doesn't remember the next day? there ARE gray areas but, uh, being passed out cold is not one of them), but then tell girls "oh you can do whatever you want! wear skimpy clothes, accept drinks from strangers, get wasted. it's not your fault!"
It's definitely NOT the woman's fault, but both parties need to share the responsibility when it comes to date rape. Telling men they're assholes and rapists isn't fair. Nor is suggesting that women can get as shit faced as they want, but men are the only ones responsible.

RainbowBrite

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @RosemaryF: "But the point is that it was MY experience to label. And just because my naming-scheme doesn't agree with someone else who had the same experience doesn't mean that I should be villified or pitied. Nor should I think less of the person who had the same experience and DID label it as rape."

Thank you for that - it is exactly what I was trying to say in my comment, but failing I think. Choice of labels does not make a person weaker or stronger than someone else who had a similar experience but chooses, for their own reasons, to call it something different.

melliejellybelly

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> The way you choose to react to a skeevy non-consensual incident can be entirely separate from whether or not said incident is illegal/unethical/just plain wrong. Just because I don't care that my shitty old bike got swiped doesn't make the person who took it any less of a thief.

Um, which isn't to say that we're all just worn out bicycles or anything like that.

Candyboots

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @feistyred: I heard a bit of advice! If someone is acting skeeze like, following a little too close or you're alone in an elevator with someone, you can ask "What time is it?" or something to acknowledge they're there and let them know you've seen their face.

RainbowBrite

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> On the whole, I'm with Moe on this one. I'm one of the many who had the drunk-at-the-frat experience, and I never really labeled it as rape. Getting drunk and making a real goddamned bad choice? Yes. Rape? Nah.

But the point is that it was MY experience to label. And just because my naming-scheme doesn't agree with someone else who had the same experience doesn't mean that I should be villified or pitied. Nor should I think less of the person who had the same experience and DID label it as rape.

For me, calling it a rape would not have made it any easier to...I don't want to say get over, but possibly acclimate into my brain. I was completely under the delusion that "it won't happen to me." Yes, it did happen to me, and yes, it was awful, but unless I was willing to press charges, there was no need for me to call it rape. (Again, this is MY coping mechanism. This is MY reasoning for what happened and how I dealt.)

RosemaryF

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @RainbowBrite: I see what you're saying, but the "don't get too drunk & become a rapist" message is not nearly as widespread as the "don't get too drunk and become a rape victim" message. It seems like society views rape as this inevitable thing we women have to work hard to avoid, rather than something men can stop doing.

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @SarahMC: I don't know about you but I took self-defense, and I have a really nasty right hook. When I have to take the subway late, I get off at the well lit stop that goes up my street. I make eye contact with everyone when I am walking and I am always aware of my surroundings.

Do you have any suggestions?

sosyourface

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @SarahMC: Unfortunately, then we are all fucked. But I agree with RainbowBrite, I am have no problem taking responsibility for myself and coming up with ways of protecting myself. I can't predict the behavior of random men.

sosyourface

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @feistyred: Right. Cause rape only happens when you've been out drinking.

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @SarahMC: Actually, I disagree with your last statement. Telling people, both men and women, to control their alcohol consumption to (a) help women avoid becoming vulnerable and unable to avoid/fight off an unwanted sexual advance and (b) help men avoid having bad judgment and not recognizing what they're doing is wrong can help stop a lot of rapes. I'm talking about preventing date/party/acquaintance rape here, not incest, domestic abuse or stranger rape.

RainbowBrite

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @RainbowBrite: I was writing my reply about the exact same thing as you.

I have a support system set up for when I drink- go home late-, etc. I have a "protection buddy" so to speak.

sosyourface

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @yarnmule: Dude, there's no need to start picking on the one male opinion. I understand his point- both parties should consent.

Can you verify that during each sexual encounter you say "yes, so and so I would like to have sex with you." or "no so and so I don't want to"? Incidentally, I have, it makes the logistics much easier. Really preventing rape is about support, supporting your friends. A really close friend of mine will actually get in a cab and come home with me to make sure I get home safely and to ensure some random guy doesn't try to jump in a cab with me.

So instead of the 130 comments of hater-ade towards men, how about some positive suggestions to the ladies about how to avoid these situations. Like I said, I have a friend escort me home if I drink too much or some guy is lecherously all over me.

sosyourface

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @RainbowBrite: The point in saying "stay away from all men" is that that is truly the only way to avoid rape. I'm being sarcastic.
Rape prevention strategies always focus on the victim's actions and usually assume the rapist is a stranger. That is just not true. Most victims are raped by someone they know, whether it be a family member or a boyfriend. So, "don't drink til you pass out" is not going to protect that many women.


SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @f-words: "Rub some dirt on it!"

You can put kittens in the oven, it doesn't make them biscuits. I don't think that it makes someone weak or less of a rape victim, just because they don't call it that. Also, I don't think that it shirks personal responsibility to call rape what it is. -Yes it was my decision to marry a jerk, and I have to deal with the consequences, but that doesn't absolve him from his responsibility for his actions.

Moving on is the important thing - if it helps to avoid this or that label, fine, but I don't think that labeling rape something else makes a person stronger than another woman who calls it rape, deals with it and moves on.

melliejellybelly

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @yarnmule: Exactly. If a guy holds a knife to a woman's throat and tells her she better let him fuck her or else she dies... it's RAPE. She needn't have a mark on her.

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @SarahMC: Sarah, pointing out that there are things that women can do to avoid being raped is not the same as telling women to stay inside, Taliban-style. We get advice on how to avoid being mugged or carjacked, so why is it unreasonable to suggest that women can reduce their chances of being raped by doing things like not getting black-out drunk, having a buddy look out for you, staying in control of your drinks, etc. This is NOT the same as telling women who end up being raped anyway deserve it or "failed" at avoiding it.

I think we need to talk to both men and women about this. It does fucking no good to say "STAY AWAY FROM ALL MEN". At my school, the Sexual Assault prevention people approached men in a rather off-putting way. If someone came to me and suggested that I was a criminal in the making, I wouldn't be interested in joining their cause. Both men and women need to understand what is rape/date rape/"gray rape" whatever the fuck you want to call it, and how to avoid it, namely, both genders not getting so fucking drunk they're out of control.

RainbowBrite

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @TripsyDaily: Oh please. Rape IS violent. It's an unwanted violation of your body by another person. How will we ever eradicate rape if we act like it's no big deal? Just an unpleasant occurance!

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @KurticusMaximus:

Dude. Non-consensual means they didn't give consent. It means they said no, and they didn't want it. Just because he doesn't have to beat the crap out of her doesn't mean he isn't forcing her to do something she doesn't want to do.

yarnmule

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @TripsyDaily: So the emotionally strong amongst us who had sex forced on them don't need to be dragged down by the rape victim label like the lame, weaker victimized? "Walk it off, ladies!"

f-words

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @tailfeather: (Once again - soooo giving it away that I am not on a conf. call) FUCK YEAH! I hope you hosed that shitbag down!!

ThaKadinskyPapers

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @missmade: Good point about the social guilt for women, it is bullshit!

TripsyDaily

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @KurticusMaximus: So if a guy drinks too much and kills someone is that "grey murder"?

AmericanPsychocat

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> Well, clearly I'm not the first to make these points here. The one day I actually do work while at work, and I come late to the interesting post of the day.

Sigh

KurticusMaximus

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @DeeJayQueue:

So you never made a single questionable decision when you were 18 years old? Good to know.

Yes, violent rape is worse, in that it is, you know, violent. But stop feeding into the "she was asking for it because she had too much to drink/wore too short a skirt/was flirting/is hot. You can't throw all the responsibility for not being assaulted on the victim.

Unless, of course, you're about to suggest we all don burkas, in which case you're simply nuts.

yarnmule

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @SarahMC: Not all rape is violent.

Furthermore, not all "rape" is rape (Duke Lacrosse Team).

Why do so many women try to tell other women how they should feel about this topic - what is this sisterhood bullshit?? If an embarrasing sexual exploit was hurtful or damaging to you why must it be for every other woman out there?
Get the help you need, but don't go dragging other women down the same shit hole to make your experience less painful/embarrassing/isolating.



TripsyDaily

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> Ok, hopefully I don't get totally destroyed for saying this, but here goes...

The premise of "gray rape" does seem to make sense, insofar as while an event may be non-consensual sex, it is not quite the same as overtly violent, forced sex.

I say this only to point out that, in most cases where a girl "drinks too much" and a guy has sex with her, the guy is probably pretty wasted too. Now, inebriation is never an excuse, but if the girl can't consent because she's too drunk, then neither can the guy.

Obviously, this doesn't affect how the event affects those involved. If either party perceived it as rape, then they will have been traumatized by it. If both parties just consider it a bad night, then it might not be traumatic.

Again, I'm not saying all this to make excuses, or to imply that a woman being inebriated automatically makes it "not rape." But I do think that there are probably cases where both parties are incredibly wasted, and that the sex was therefore not consensual for either person. This does make it rape, but it also seems to distinguish it from one person, fully sober, forcing themself upon a ridiculously drunk victim.

Mostly, I just want to point out that these aren't all cases of sober rapists abusing drunk girls. I think there are a lot of cases of two drunk people doing things that one or both don't want to do. In those cases, it might be outright rape, but it also might just be a bad mistake. I think there is a gray area there, and it depends a lot on the circumstances.

KurticusMaximus

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @the schef: Exactly. The best way to avoid rape is to stop associating with men, period. Because they're all suspect.

SarahMC

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> @melliejellybelly: i'm glad you've said this, it seems to be going kind of unnoticed that most of these "gray rapes" are between friends, husbands and wives, significant others, NOT like one-night-stand takedown potentials randomly met in a bar! mine were both with men i knew very, very well and had absolutely no reason not to trust if i was asleep around them or going to a party with them.

i'm not really sure what scenarios DeeJayQueue is imagining here. i mean the point i'm making is not that victims in regrettable stranger encounters are less of victims, but rather that there is basically an implication here that even around very good friends, women can never trust men and have to always be on guard and assume that any man in her life is going to take advantage of her. which is a really unhealthy way to live your life.

allyzay

]]> <![CDATA['Cosmo' Wonders: Is It Rape If You Had Too Many Jaeger Shots To Remember It Anyway?]]> Eh, I fully agree with Moe & the similar views. I had something happen once when out with a friend of a friend. After only TWO beers (and trust me, I'm an utter lush at times) I was feeling woozy and said I wanted to go home. Then, I wake up and he's having sex with me. I tried to push him off but was a bit to dizzy for that. He finished and I left and got tested. It so wasn't worth it to me to call in the