Xenophobia - Jezebel

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Pocahaunted
05/11/09

In reply to Greek Tragedies
Ahrg! Jezebel get out of my head! I was just at an anti-facist rally outside my student union against this kind of neo-nazi bullshit.

It's all propaganda...hateful, manipulative propaganda. I feel so sad and hopeless when I hear the neo-nazi groups, like the BNP in England, saying to underprivileged and disillusioned young white people that asylum seekers and immigrants are taking their jobs etc. For one it's not true, and more importantly they are hiding their true message of hate under it. Hope not hate!
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Bunny Themelis
05/11/09

In reply to Greek Tragedies
To give some perspective: Greece was destitute after the second World War and then the Greek Civil war erupted, pitting royalists against Communists. It was very violent. Sometime after this, when Greece was attempting to design education, many nazi-sympathetic, Classical Greece enthusiasts poured into the country and ended up shaping a lot of what the Greeks teach their kids today. Like, many Greeks from Greece believe the ancient Greeks were fair haired and pale skinned (despite what the artwork shows us), were basically what is considered the Aryan Ideal. Then they believe the reason they are darker today is because of the Turkish occupation that last for 400 years and ended in 1821. Well, being Greek myself but also an Ancient History scholar I can tell you this is a load of bullshit. First, Greece where it is in the world would not be fit for truly fair skinned people to evolve in. Second, in all of Greece's history they've always mixed and traveled with the rest of the world, in Ancient times Greeks were pretty much ONLY involved with peoples to the South (Africa) and the East (Middle East) to them. Greeks did not even discover the lighter people like the Gauls until after the "Golden Age" of Greece, most interaction being in Hellenisitic times. Basically Greece is a victim of it's own hubris, it's own strong desire to be truly considered part of the west. Which is sad because anyone who has been to Greece can see the culture is more similar to the Mid East than it is to the rest of Europe. The great irony of this being that true Nazis killed Greeks en masse during WW2, including my Great Grandfather.

Also, the EU accepted Greece into it reluctantly, did not want to give Greece the Euro, but sort of HAD to because of the 2004 Olympics. Around 50% of Greece's population lives in Athens, the rest outside of tourist traps is still extremely villagey.
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Maritsa
05/11/09

@Bunny Themelis: Ha! My mom (who is actually Cypriot) believes that ancient Greeks were blond and fair too. My sister and I are very fair with dark hair - even though my dad was super dark - and my mom thinks this is evidence that we are more Greek or something. And the funny thing is my mom isn't really into the whole Greek thing, but she still buys into that part.

Also, people from my dad's village (in Mani) insist that they are "pure" Greek because their territory was never conquered. Yeah, not quite.
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Diziet_Sma
05/11/09

@Bunny Themelis: Thank you. That was truly enlightening!
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andromache
05/11/09

In reply to Greek Tragedies
interesting that the Greeks have been xenophobic for some 3000 yrs and are still going strong.

not judging, I just think it's amazing that a culture can thrive for millenia. as a classicist myself, I want nothing more than to visit Greece, but I am wary of what will happen to this blond-haired green-eyed American as she wanders the ancient streets in various states of archaeological ecstasy...
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morninggloria
05/11/09

@andromache don't want no scrub: You'll be fine; much better off than if you were brown. Plus there are tons of Scandanavian and German tourists on the islands and you won't stick out as much in say, Ios, as you would in someplace like Thessoloniki.
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Maritsa
05/11/09

@andromache don't want no scrub: Just be careful like you would be in any large city on your own. It's true that many Greeks (especially on the left) have anti-American feelings, but many also love Americans and want to visit America. And my blond, green-eyed husband was fine in Athens even when my Greek ass was elsewhere.
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morninggloria
05/11/09

@Maritsa: Hahaha... "my Greek ass."

One thing I will say: Athenians are among the best looking people that I have ever seen.
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GreekGirl
05/11/09

@andromache don't want no scrub: @AnaNg: @Maritsa:

Have I entered the Anti Greek movement and I don't know it?

Nothing will happen to you, blonde or non-blonde when you are wondering the streets of Plaka or elsewhere. For the record, I am an Athenian (thanks Morning Gloria!) and feel like a citizen of the world not just Greece's. You are not going to get any patriotism from me.

BUT...Greeks can be stupid and ignorant on some level but saying that you blonde haired blue eyed Americans, Scandinavians etc are actually thinking that something that you might get attacked because of your looks, then sorry but...

A. you need to check the definition of judgement again

B. Is Bush back in the White House?

C. I don't know, I am too upset to continue....
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heykoukla
05/11/09

@andromache don't want no scrub: You have nothing to worry about. Greeks' nationalism is rooted in pride in their history - if you visit to check out the sites and pay respect to the country's heritage, they will adore you. You must also use every opportunity to talk about what a disgrace it is that the British Museum holds on to the Parthenon Marbles. Sorted!
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Maritsa
05/11/09

@GreekGirl: Excuse me, I'm a first-generation American with Greek parents. I said she would be fine and should just be as careful as she would in any large city.
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morninggloria
05/11/09

@Maritsa: I actually found Athens to feel much safer to me than most American cities. I never felt threatened while I was there, even while walking alone at night. Just because there might be an undercurrent of xenophobia in some Greek circles doesn't mean that random ya-ya's are attacking Americans on the streets.
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Maritsa
05/11/09

@morninggloria: Ha! Yiayias are tough. My dad's threw herself on top of him to save him from a bullet during the civil war. Of course it wasn't aimed remotely at him, but you gotta admire the courage.
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andromache
05/11/09

@GreekGirl: I'm not exactly afraid of mobs coming after me with pitch forks. but I've known people (fellow archaeo and classics peeps) who have had mixed experiences in Greece, some of it depending on their appearance. I'd be wary visiting anywhere with a tradition of xenophobia (I get enough crap for being a Yank in the South). and, far from being "anti Greek," I'm studying the ancient literature of the Greeks for a living. so I hope you don't think there is any ill will on my part.
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morninggloria
05/11/09

@Maritsa: And watch out for Papou with the WORRY BEADS OF DOOM!
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Maritsa
05/11/09

@morninggloria: clackclackclackclackclackTHWAP (that last one is the sound of him whipping you in the face with them).
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GreekGirl
05/11/09

@andromache don't want no scrub: @Maritsa:

Fair enough, I understand your point.

There are a lot of misconceptions when people visit Greece. For example my own husband who is an American (before we got married) when he visited me in Athens for the first time in 2004, was afraid to speak any english in the taxi on the way home from the airport in case the taxi driver was anti American and wanted to kill him or something. I told him that he is out of his mind and very prejudiced against people he didn't even get to know yet. Eventually he relaxed and had a good time and I decided to marry him after all.
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Maritsa
05/11/09

@GreekGirl: Did you tell him the only reason a Greek taxi driver would kill him is if he walked in front of him in traffic?

I kid, but seriously, when people say things like "Boston drivers are the worst drivers in the world!" I just laugh, because I've seen Athens drives. And then my sister said Egypt is even worse than Greece...
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Ipomoea
05/11/09

@Maritsa: I've heard that taxis in Cairo are a death wish. It's not stopping me from wanting to go there.
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PicosPardos
05/11/09

In reply to Greek Tragedies
The U.S. is anti-illegal immigration too. Poor people are not welcomed anywhere, that's what is going on. I am not suprised at what's happening in Europe, but as a Spaniard who has emigrated (legally) to the U.S., I have gotten crap here too.
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Maritsa
05/11/09

@PicosPardos: I agree with you, but it's not just that poor people are not welcomed in Greece. As I posted upthread, there is a particular obsession with ancestry, speaking Greek, and being of one religion that feeds this xenophobia.
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morninggloria
05/11/09

@PicosPardos: Trust me, it's not nearly as bad here as it is in Greece. Being a complete anti-immigrant xenophobe is a mainstream way to think over there.
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SampritiAtymnius
05/11/09

In reply to Greek Tragedies
She can't be a member of golden dawn . They are mostly male and the greek police never ever arrests them .At this demostration the golden dawn wascollaborating with the greek police against the counter demostrators. I know none of you speak greek but the photos speak for themselves .http://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?lang=el&article_id=1027246
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Diziet_Sma
05/11/09

@SampritiAtymnius: Good grief; that's terrible.
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morninggloria
05/11/09

In reply to Greek Tragedies
Seriously, having lived in Greece for a short spell, I can't say I'm surprised that the xenophobes have gotten a little violent. And I'm not surprised that it happened in Omonia, which is where there is a visible population of Albanian immigrants. The amount of racism and aversion to anything non-Greek (that I encountered, at least) is sort of startling.
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sableized (just like starting over)
05/11/09

@morninggloria: Agreed. When I was there I was lucky that I look so Mediterranean - my friend, who is blond and blue-eyed, hit a lot of problems, while I was just assumed to be Greek and left alone.
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morninggloria
05/11/09

@sableized (is pining for san fran): I went there as someone without any Greek ancestry and with VERY limited Greek speaking abilities. I did my best to learn what I could when I was there, but that language is not the easiest for a native English speaker to learn. Anyway, I also sort of look Greek-ish, and people would come up to me in the grocery store or Everest Cafe or whatever and try to strike up a conversation, and I'd look at them and say "Dhen ketalaveno hellenika" in perfect Greek (because I had to say it a lot) and you should have seen some of the dirty looks I got. I think people thought I was just being an asshole, lying about not speaking Greek.
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Maritsa
05/11/09

@morninggloria: The racism can be ascribed in part to the fact that being "Greek" has traditionally had a very narrow definition, i.e., you must be of Greek ancestry and you must be Greek Orthodox. That's true in many European countries but even moreso in Greece, I think, which was never wealthy enough to have immigrants until 20-30 years ago.

It's a very unfortunate remnant of the occupation of the Ottoman Empire. "Greekness" was kept alive through religion and language, and people cling to those now. Add in the influx of immigrants and a government that privileges "Greekness" and it's a terrible situation.
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sableized (just like starting over)
05/11/09

@morninggloria: I just smiled a whole lot and used a vaguely European accent when speaking English - worked okay for me! Also, for some reason a ton of Greeks speak German too, and my German's tons better than my Greek, so that helped.

Where in Greece were you? I was in Athens, which maybe accounted for the slightly more tolerant attitudes. Although the above picture makes me doubt it.
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morninggloria
05/11/09

@Maritsa: I was a practicing Catholic when I was in Athens, the Catholic church was right near the University, but had a really high fence around it and tons of security.

Another thing that I thought was a little screwy:
Greeks swore that they could tell the difference between Greeks, Turks, and "A.L.B's". I could not, for the life of me, look at someone walking down the street in say, Pireas, and tell you where they were from. Um, the Mediterranean?
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Maritsa
05/11/09

@morninggloria: Oh, puh-lease. I joke that I can spot a Greek at 100 yards, but really I know a lot of people that are Greek (or half-Greek, which to some Greeks barely counts) who don't look anything like a "typical" Greek.

Sadly, I'm not surprised about the Catholic church. Non-Greek Orthodox churches have to get permission to build churches (outside of regular building permits, etc.). Greeks actually have a lot of antipathy toward the Catholic church. It was 1054, get over it!! The Orthodox church has such a stranglehold on those in power and they just keep perpetuating this B.S.

Greece has bad immigration laws. Among other things, even if you're born in Greece, if your parents are non-Greek-ancestry immigrants, you have to apply for a residency permit when you turn 18.
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morninggloria
05/11/09

@sableized (just like starting over): I was in Athens, too. In Kolonaki, so most of the time I was left alone. I often ventured to Syntagma, and wasn't left alone as much there.
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heykoukla
05/11/09

@morninggloria: My goodness, who did you hang out with??? It's a shame you had such a terrible time living there, but I've known many foreigners who have lived in Greece (Crete and Athens), and few who would speak so harshly of the people. When you say people looked at you like you were being an ass - well, that has nothing to do with you being an American, or an assumed Greek who doesn't speak the language. That's just the Greek way, being rude, obnoxious and dismissive - at least until they get to know you and then you have a friend for life (truly for life, whether you like it or not).
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morninggloria
05/11/09

@heykoukla: I enjoyed living there, but I am just commenting on their xenophobia toward certain groups of immigrants.

Greek people that I came across are great- they're beautiful and they certainly know how to have a good time and they know how to relax/enjoy themselves. They're very proud of their country, their history. They're very family oriented and proud of other Greeks' accomplishments.

And I don't blame them for dirty looks in the grocery story. Imagine going up to someone in the US, trying to talk to them, and having them look at you and say "I don't understand English" with a pretty good American accent. I was too good at saying that I couldn't speak Greek; that was my point.

I honestly didn't intend to comment on my overall experience there; I meant my comment to reflect a small portion of what I noticed about people I met when I was in Greece.
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Diziet_Sma
05/11/09

In reply to Greek Tragedies
Hey, everyone - she may have been anti the demonstrators, for all we know.
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Ailatan
05/11/09

@Diziet_Sma: there is no indication of an anti demo in the small caption.
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Maritsa
05/11/09

@Ailatan: There were counter demonstrations, as well. From the BBC: "Left-wing groups staged a counter-rally nearby and riot police were deployed to keep the two sides apart."
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Diziet_Sma
05/11/09

@Ailatan: I took the "Violence erupted" to mean there was; hard to imagine such a right-wing rally without a counter-demonstration.
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J.D.Regent
05/11/09

@Diziet_Sma: I know some people will get on me for saying this, but she does look more like a counter protester to me. It's an arresting (pardon the pun) image regardless.
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Maritsa
05/11/09

@J.D.Regent: I think she looks like a counter protester because of the keffiyeh-ish scarf, but then again that could just be a scarf to protect her from tear gas. Who knows?
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Wibbles
05/11/09

@Diziet_Sma: She might be a bystander too.

I remember when there was this HUGE Nazi Rally, a lot of people turned out to see exactly what kind of crazy lunatics would out themselves like that. There was also a counter-protest, but it was less interesting.
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zombie.nancy is a godess of fierce
05/11/09

@J.D.Regent: I agree. Appearances may be deceiving, but she looks pretty mellow to me. It almost seems unfair for such a young girl to be surrounded by so many officers - it's not like she's holding a weapon or anything.
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Diziet_Sma
05/11/09

@Wibbles: Either/or - I'm just saying, I don't think it reflects well on anyone to be so quick to judge. Especially when we're talking about racists, who, by definition, judge things by appearances!
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Trulymadlyme
05/11/09

In reply to Greek Tragedies
I tried to explain to all of my friends after the 2004 election that simply moving to Europe would not rid them of close-minded idiots. It's just that the jerks on the European continent hate immigrants the way that jerks on this continent hate black people. Europe is in no way a paragon of open mindedness.
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Diziet_Sma
05/11/09

@Trulymadlyme: It varies from country to country, as it does from state to state here.
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nessalicious
05/11/09

@Trulymadlyme: I agree. I am constantly shocked by the narrow mindedness that pervades amongst my Italian family/friends and how normal it is for them over there. I wish that the E.U was the idyllic place that Americans et al believe it is.
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Trulymadlyme
05/11/09

@Trulymadlyme: @Diziet_Sma: You're right on that point, but one of the most shocking points is how horridly immigrants are treated (see: Paris and Rome). I spent a lot of time visiting family that lived in the Paris burbs. Rough, rough places. I thought Paris was an absolute hell hole until I went back in college and saw the inner portion of the city (which is wealthier and not nearly as isolated and hellish as the burbs).
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Diziet_Sma
05/11/09

@Trulymadlyme: The French are particularly Nationalistic; the country has an over-developed pride in itself, very similar to America. Sometimes that can spill over into xenophobia. British, for example, are generally more like 'yeah, it's shit here, ha ha! Let's have another cup of tea'.
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TheJacqueline ValJean
05/11/09

@Trulymadlyme: I haven't been to Europe in years, so no recent insights, but I have often wondered if Europe is worse than the US in this sense.

There are plenty of racists in the US, obviously, but as a "melting pot" we are more likely than not to see people of different races everyday, which I think can eventually lead to more widespread acceptance of people from different backgrounds.

It seems to me that in Europe, where countries are made of people who are generally of the same ethinic background/religion, racism might be more apparent for no other reason than fear/misunderstanding of the unknown.
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TheJacqueline ValJean
05/11/09

@TheJacqueline ValJean: It also bugs me when that the "All-American" look is almost always represented by blue-eyed blondes...when really, shouldn't anyone, from any background, be able to look "All-American?"
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Benevolent_Dictatrix (patently absurd)
05/11/09

@Trulymadlyme: Yeah, all you have to do is look at the treatment of Roma throughout Europe to realize it's not the progressive utopia some people think it is. (See also: the banning of headscarves and other religious symbols in French schools.)
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Trulymadlyme
05/11/09

@Benevolent_Dictatrix I must I must increase my bust!: Yeah. My general impression as an immigrant is that Europe can suck. A lot. Also, shitty? Australia.
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Diziet_Sma
05/11/09

@TheJacqueline ValJean: Well, you could argue the real 'All-American' look is Native American.

Re: the US/Europe debate - we're all racist, to some extent. It's inbuilt. Having a pissing contest about which country/continent is 'least-racist' is kind of pointless.
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TheJacqueline ValJean
05/11/09

@Diziet_Sma: That's true. I'm not really trying to have a pissing contest, maybe more a musing on..the origins of hatred? Racism is completely illogical, but I'd think people feel threatened/hate other races for various reasons, depending on where they are from.
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Diziet_Sma
05/11/09

@TheJacqueline ValJean: Yeah, 'pissing contest' a bit harsh. I was including myself, though.
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kansasgirl
05/11/09

@nessalicious haz 2 cracked ribs and much woe: When I was in high school we had an Italian exchange student and she used to put down souther Italians all the time. My mom told her she was being prejudiced. "I'm not prejudice," she'd tell us, "I like black people." My mom pointed out she was prejudiced against southern Italians. "But they're dirty and they steal things!" she said. I couldn't believe how this otherwise intelligent girl simply could not understand that she was being prejudice with this belief.
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Maritsa
05/11/09

@kansasgirl: My Cypriot cousion told me "I don't hate Turks, I just never want to deal with them." OK then!!
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Aesop's Foibles. YES.
05/11/09

In reply to Greek Tragedies
Honestly, if there happened to be any kind of Hitler Youth rally or what have you in my town, there'd definitely be some violence erupting from yours truly. I'm sorry, but I can't have any compassion for people who ascribe to that hateful shit.
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Laulau
05/11/09

@..now it's just Aesop's Foibles.: I remember some years back an African American woman throwing herself upon a Nazi at a rally in Ann Arbor. I'm torn on the value of such an act, since I'm sure he didn't give a crap, but it's lovely to see good people be so much better than the truly evil.
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vamusical
05/11/09

In reply to Greek Tragedies
saying they wanted to liberate Athens and Greece from what they described as 'hordes of illegal immigrants'

Oh, so just a regular gathering of the Lou Dobbs fan club!
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AtomiClash: humanitarian misanthrope
05/11/09

@vamusical: I never knew he spoke Greek!
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wordinedgewise
05/11/09

@vamusical: HA! Thank you, now I've gone and spit coffee all over my keyboard.
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GeorgeFayne
05/11/09

@AtomiClash is a ball-cutting cybersuccubus: He can't speak Greek - it's unamerican.
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sableized (just like starting over)
05/11/09

In reply to Greek Tragedies
ghyamoto. WHY are there goddamned stormtroopers in my adopted city? This is as stupid as that movement a couple years ago to eliminate all Turkish words from modern Greek.

IT'S A GLOBAL SOCIETY. DEAL WITH IT.
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Ailatan
05/11/09

In reply to Greek Tragedies
Oh shit, she's so young. I hope she learns better.
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cuckoobananapants
05/11/09

In reply to Greek Tragedies
I hope she kicked some neo-Nazi ass.
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GoldenRatioφ (aka -girl11)
05/11/09

@cuckoobananapants: I think she is a neo-Nazi ass.
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anonanimal
05/11/09

@goldengirl11 (is way too earnest): Yeah, I'm pretty sure she's a neo-Nazi.
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Trulymadlyme
05/11/09

@goldengirl11 (is way too earnest): I agree. I think she is.
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sarah0220 (please don't take my star)
05/11/09

In reply to Greek Tragedies
Ladies, I'm really out of the loops. Where are these illegal immigrants coming from?
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sarah0220 (please don't take my star)
05/11/09

@sarah0220: And by loops I mean loop.
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saintbernadette
05/11/09

@sarah0220: I'm going to guess Albania? And Africa?
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sableized (just like starting over)
05/11/09

@RollRoll:@sarah0220: Mostly from the poorer Balkan states - Greece is an EU nation and therefore its economy is in much better shape, considering, than its neighbours. Although space should not be ruled out as a possibility.
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Maritsa
05/11/09

@sarah0220: Most illegal immigrants in Greece are from Albania, there are also Bulgarian immigrants and some from Nigeria. Greece is not a welcoming place for immigrants who aren't of Greek ancestry.
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morninggloria
05/11/09

@sarah0220: The Balkans and former Yugoslav states. Greeks are really xenophobic about outsiders, especially Albanians. They refer to them as "A.L.B's" in hushed tones.

It's really strange.
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saintbernadette
05/11/09

@morninggloria: It is strange. I spent some time (in Greece) with a friend who lives in Greece last summer. I sensed a lot of anger there.
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Gretchen is a new kitten mom!
01/11/09

In reply to Nashville Councilman Wants His City To Be "English Only"
We had a similar local politician here who wanted the same type of law for Lower Crapovia. I joined a group of citizens here who asked our local city council some very important questions before this came up for a vote. Like, how would they 'enforce' this 'law'? The wording meant that it would be illegal for business to be conducted in any language other than English, but here in Lower Crapovia we do have a couple of excellent Mexican groceries that carry a variety of yummy things I can't find at Kroger. So it would be illegal for these business owners to use their native language when speaking to another native Spanish speaking person? In their own business?

We managed to get them to vote against this useless, money-wasting piece of crap legislation. We also wanted to propose a law of our own that required Lower Crapovia to be declared an "Asshole-Free Zone". That idea didn't catch on, but we still have hope for the future.
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