This is one of those areas where being a boss can really help you put your feminist rhetoric into action. Last time I hired I got tons of overzealous, overconfident guys applying along with women who were clear and concise but almost apologized for listing their qualifications. I hired one of each. The guy was, surprise surprise, all talk.
I'm so happy to have had amazing bosses who saw me as their successor rather than a threat.
Hmm. There are several jobs I've wanted but have not applied for due to lack of a degree - but I have 10+ years experience in my field. I might have to rethink things.
Thanks, Latoya, for this and all the awesome posts you've done on the health care fiasco.
"A Dell Australia executive says women are too modest about their achievements in the workplace"
Yeah, because if we have the unmitigated gall to even hint that we're good at something, we're vilified by our work culture, our friends and family, and the larger culture, for bragging.
Nice try, Dell.
And fix those Inspiron bugs while you're at it, huh? Before you get hit with another class action suit.
I hope no one is offended by this, but I have always thought about selling a WWWGD- (What Would a White Guy Do?) themed line of merchandise -- bracelets, t-shirts, whatever. There are so many aspects of privileged white male confidence that I (a black woman) find at once problematic and worthy of emulation. This is the perfect example.
@ronniedobbs: Great idea, indeed. So much of work relationships and especially corporate culture comes down to: "Perception is reality," unfortunately. Even if one's tru talents lie elsewhere, just emanating (and /or emulating) the confidence and assertiveness to take on difficult challenges is definitely a leg-up.
@ronniedobbs: I really like it, at least as an eye-catching title a la He's Just Not That Into You (you can make all the apologies for broad generalizations in the intro).
Crap. I hate how true this is for me. hopefully, thinking about this now, I will be able to shame myself into applying to some "reach" jobs and internships for next year.
Um, ex-Dell professional here. I worked in marketing at the Mother Ship. There are NO women at the higher executive levels. Mentorship? GAH. Kremer could try hiring a couple and see how that goes. Although I must credit Dell with creating such a shiteous work environment for me that I was compelled to quit and go to law school. Now I have my own law practice and they can SUCK IT. Apparently I can hold a grudge like a Palin, yo.
@Never_Nude: It's so nice to see behind the curtain. And here I was feeling warm and fuzzy about encouragement and mentors. Guess I'll believe it when I see it.
I find that this is also true in academia. in my dept, the only person who is completely arrogant is a dude, and he is not as great as he thinks he is. come to think of it, all the assholes in my field whom I've personally met were dudes. some of the women were less than nice, but it was guys who were telling everyone how much better they were than everyone else, even though the women are completely equal in terms of academic skills.
What a dude. This is so true. My husband went for a job once that specified mastery of a specific computer application - he'd never used it before, lied in the interview, got the job and spent the next three weeks learning it at home after work. He knew he would be great at the important part - the creative part of the job, and refused to let a computer app stand in the way.
Me? No way on earth would I ever have the bottle to do that - I hate the idea of taking on a job that I'm not qualified for, just not worth the stress to me. And he did go through a shitload of stress, although it turned out brilliantly in the end and served his career well. I admire his confidence, and it's taught me to be a little more cavalier, but I'll stay within my own comfort zone, thanks.
@Diziet_Sma: I am like your husband. If it's just about a particular skill (computer program, filing system, publishing format, etc.) - that shit can be learned. If I have particular intangible skills that really elevate the quality of work, then I'll apply for a position and learn the functional skillset on the job. Fake it 'til you make it.
@Diziet_Sma: I am a dude and I wouldn't lie to get a job.
I might tell the folks that "I can't do this, but I can do this other thing that is awesome and check my references to see how well I learn new skills."
I'd probably not get the job, but I'd feel better about not overselling myself.
In my experience, a man who puts himself forward despite not being totally fit for a role is ambitious. When a woman does it, she's "reaching" or "over-ambitious."
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Although I guess it's always better to go down fighting...
Today I sat through my school professional development day. We haven't been doing well on our tests so we have to have mandatory professional development above and beyond the usual. It has been quite soul crushing.
Our principal is terrible. She has very little leadership skills, she speaks to us like we are children, and she screams all the time. We gossip about about her constantly, but it's not "gossip" (though she did drunk dial our school secretary once and we did talk about that a lot) . We talk about how her incompetence and lack of leadership skills are hurting our school, creating an environment of negativity, and helping to drag down our scores. We talk about how she plays favorites and is inconsistent with procedures. We talk about how she tries to make us hate each other and tear down good professional relationships which takes away from a feeling of community in our school.
It all came to a head today. We're finally realizing that we are all mad as hell and we aren't going to take it anymore. It helped us come together as a staff, which is something that she had been trying to tear down for the last few years. I think we really came together today, and it was through "gossip". #gossip
@jonesjl: I wish you all the best with that situation. I am a teacher, too, and I have a boss who plays favorites, talks about teacher performance with other teachers (a union issue) and has had several complaints made against her. It is not a fun environment. #gossip
What about impersonations? My co-workers and I usually just impersonate people behind their backs. I don't think it's mean spirited necessarily but it can be funny as hell. #gossip
@PennyFarthing: I had a coworker who did the best impressions of our other coworkers. He did one of me too and I thought it was hilarious! Everyone should just lighten up a bit. Its not being a bully, its being a clown. #gossip
@FaceMonkey: Agree. Our office was a bunch of goofs. The guys had one of me and it was very funny - at first I was like "I don't say "whatever" that much, do I?" - but I do! If you can't have fun at work than what a sucky life. #gossip
Office gossip is like a Darwin thing to me - everyone does it, but only the stupid people are so brash they get caught and punished. And then the rest of us can go back to talking about them at the happy hour they aren't invited to.
Also, if you're a boss and you're employees gossip but do well (i.e. good test scores for those teachers) let it go. It may mean they fear you, which might be a good thing. People in power are often listened to but rarely liked. In a phrase, you're not here to make friends. #gossip
My former office was ripe with gossip - some funny and entertaining, some that sucked. And for a huge global company, it was a no-brainer that what I did in the London office was being talked about in the NY office.
I do agree that some gossip is good, because it's bonding. I'm at a company now where there doesn't seem to be much gossip - or else I'm just blissfully not involved in it. Which is both helpful and harmful. #gossip
I'm not ashamed to admit that I'm one of the gossip hubs in my office. It's not my fault. I sit in an area that is far away from my bosses, and people like to come and talk to me when they want to waste time or are bored and don't have anything better to do. I suspect that they think that because I sit in an underpopulated area of the office that I therefore must not talk to anyone. False. I know more about most people in that office than I care to admit. Some of it awesome (I'm sleeping with a married and very famous professional athlete!) and some super gross (I have all of these uterine cysts and they keep popping) and some of it valuable (I know about all of the early release days and most HR policies before I'm supposed to). #gossip
11/20/09
I'm so happy to have had amazing bosses who saw me as their successor rather than a threat.
11/20/09
11/19/09
Thanks, Latoya, for this and all the awesome posts you've done on the health care fiasco.
11/20/09
11/19/09
Yeah, because if we have the unmitigated gall to even hint that we're good at something, we're vilified by our work culture, our friends and family, and the larger culture, for bragging.
Nice try, Dell.
And fix those Inspiron bugs while you're at it, huh? Before you get hit with another class action suit.
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/20/09
Go get a book deal!
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
Perhaps you'd like an H2H with my mom?
You know, just to keep in practice.
(Congrats on the law practice. We might have to handicap your score for the first couple rounds. :-) )
11/19/09
11/20/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
Me? No way on earth would I ever have the bottle to do that - I hate the idea of taking on a job that I'm not qualified for, just not worth the stress to me. And he did go through a shitload of stress, although it turned out brilliantly in the end and served his career well. I admire his confidence, and it's taught me to be a little more cavalier, but I'll stay within my own comfort zone, thanks.
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
I might tell the folks that "I can't do this, but I can do this other thing that is awesome and check my references to see how well I learn new skills."
I'd probably not get the job, but I'd feel better about not overselling myself.
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
In my experience, a man who puts himself forward despite not being totally fit for a role is ambitious. When a woman does it, she's "reaching" or "over-ambitious."
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Although I guess it's always better to go down fighting...
11/03/09
Our principal is terrible. She has very little leadership skills, she speaks to us like we are children, and she screams all the time. We gossip about about her constantly, but it's not "gossip" (though she did drunk dial our school secretary once and we did talk about that a lot) . We talk about how her incompetence and lack of leadership skills are hurting our school, creating an environment of negativity, and helping to drag down our scores. We talk about how she plays favorites and is inconsistent with procedures. We talk about how she tries to make us hate each other and tear down good professional relationships which takes away from a feeling of community in our school.
It all came to a head today. We're finally realizing that we are all mad as hell and we aren't going to take it anymore. It helped us come together as a staff, which is something that she had been trying to tear down for the last few years. I think we really came together today, and it was through "gossip". #gossip
11/03/09
11/03/09
11/03/09
11/03/09
11/03/09
11/03/09
Also, if you're a boss and you're employees gossip but do well (i.e. good test scores for those teachers) let it go. It may mean they fear you, which might be a good thing. People in power are often listened to but rarely liked. In a phrase, you're not here to make friends. #gossip
11/03/09
I do agree that some gossip is good, because it's bonding. I'm at a company now where there doesn't seem to be much gossip - or else I'm just blissfully not involved in it. Which is both helpful and harmful. #gossip
11/03/09