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"Good Ideas Have No Genitals," So Why's Advertising Still A Man's Game?
Were Women In The '50s & '60s Really Like The Ones On Mad Men?
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berlitzfrench
08/18/09

In reply to "Good Ideas Have No Genitals," So Why's Advertising Still A Man's Game?
Male domination is pretty prevalent in medicine too. One of my professors asked me why I was trying to become a doctor when I could just marry one instead. A couple of years later, I was considering going into Urology but was told by just about everyone I met that surgical subspecialties weren't good for women because maternity issues would eventually get in the way.
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rah29
08/18/09

@berlitzfrench: What's the ratio of men to women in American med schools? In Britain (my sister is a med student) there are far more women than men in med school, but then way more women go into general practice while the men do the macho things (orthopaedics, etc). Funnily enough, with this surfeit of young women in medicine, she says there aren't enough OB/GYNs to go around!

I hope you've been able to follow whatever speciality you wanted!
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berlitzfrench
08/18/09

@rah29: At the time I went to school (early/mid '90's), the national average was 44%. I went to school in an incredibly conservative area (lucky me) where the women only numbered 30%. I think the ratios are now over 50% women. Unfortunately, there are still "boys clubs" based on specialties, especially in surgery. My husband is in orthopedics and there are only a handful of female surgeons amongst his acquaintance. Pediatrics, OB/GYN, and primary care definitely have more ovaries than testes. My residency class was split about 50/50.
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honeydooo
08/18/09

In reply to "Good Ideas Have No Genitals," So Why's Advertising Still A Man's Game?
Not in the ad business, but I am a graphic designer. And, during my review last year, 90% of it was a critique of my "spicy" personality, meaning I didn't take any shit, spoke my mind and wasn't "Mary Sunshine" 24/7. Only about 10% of the review was work-related and not to toot my own horn, they couldn't really find anything negative to say about my actual work performance. So, yeah, I totally feel like I have to walk the tightrope between being self-assured and not coming across as "aggressive" and "unapproachable."
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rah29
08/18/09

@honeydooo: If I had 50p for every time a male colleague in my academic department called me 'feisty' I'd be the richest doctoral student in the world. Feisty--a word I'd use to describe a dog.
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rah29
08/18/09

@honeydooo: If I had 50p for every time a male colleague in my academic department called me 'feisty' I'd be the richest doctoral student in the world. Feisty--a word I'd use to describe a dog.
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Trulymadlyme
08/18/09

In reply to "Good Ideas Have No Genitals," So Why's Advertising Still A Man's Game?
Having a lot of friends in the industry, I do think that the sexism has greatly declined. The large agency where I know a lot of people at various levels is shockingly tolerant of women and people of different sexual orientations, at a certain level.

Particularly when it came to copy writing, design, and the nuts & bolts (but lowly paid) stuff. What little ethnic and racial diversity in this agency was pretty much a farce, with my good black friends reporting pressure to only work on urban campaigns and basically being shut out of broader opportunities.

What I did notice, however, was that when it came to getting to work on big ticket creative stuff, and getting to the more senior levels, it was pretty limited group of people.

Women, to a certain degree, had problems at this level, but everyone agreed that there was at least some sort of push to "have a [hot] women in the room." My friend who was the purported hot woman in the room, informed me that this is usually done because maybe they think it's possible to gear whatever an ad is selling, subconciously to women. See: KY Lube Ads.
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Edited by Trulymadlyme at 08/18/09 4:21 PM Trulymadlyme was starred Trulymadlyme was unstarred

Lymed
08/18/09

In reply to "Good Ideas Have No Genitals," So Why's Advertising Still A Man's Game?
Reason #87230 to work in non-profits.

I know some non-profits have there problems, but I've always had great female role models in the offices I worked.
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pink-india-ink
08/18/09

In reply to "Good Ideas Have No Genitals," So Why's Advertising Still A Man's Game?
I wonder how much the dearth of women in Creative has to do with the persistent belief that "women aren't funny", as well. Can any copywriters speak to that?
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sympathyforthebasementcat
08/18/09

In reply to "Good Ideas Have No Genitals," So Why's Advertising Still A Man's Game?
I work in advertising on an all-male team, but I've not had any problems with sexism. Maybe because most people are in their 20s here, so no relics of bygone eras. Or maybe because I'm fabulous. I'm actually getting a promotion ahead of all the guys on my team that have been here twice as long.

In fact, the most annoying stereotypes/sexism I've dealt with was at the hands of two female representatives from an unnamed bridal website. They kept throwing out stereotypes about women and sharing nauseating facts about the weddings industrial complex, and looking at me, the only other woman there, as if I were expected to coo at every detail.
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letitcrash
08/18/09

In reply to "Good Ideas Have No Genitals," So Why's Advertising Still A Man's Game?
I liked your point about how "heroines of most movies [are] ethereal free spirits or uptight control freaks." That is the thing I hate THE MOST about women in movies. Why do I have to be one or the other? Why can't I be in a creative field while also dressing in mostly black and not talking to myself and my flowers? Why do I have to chose one or the other? A person like that would be so screwed in any sort of actual job, it's ridiculous.
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EdnasEdibles
08/18/09

@letitcrash: And don't forget, even if you chose work you will just inherit some children to soften you up and turn you into an ethereal free spirit.
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MaxAgron
08/18/09

In reply to "Good Ideas Have No Genitals," So Why's Advertising Still A Man's Game?
Having been an advertising copywriter for nearly 20 years, I can tell you that it's still very male-dominated. Whether it's because the work of young men (it's still very much a young profession -- in my early 40s, I am starting to feel quite old) is perceived as "edgier," whether women are socialized to not fight as hard for their work, or just plain old sexism, the roster of every "hot creative" shop you'll see in any ad mag will be too pale, too male.

I do have my favorite Mad Men-esque story, and this happened less than ten years ago: We had a P&G account (think "feminine items") and a male account guy was in a planning meeting and, in all seriousness, began to explain to the women there about "how women fel about their periods."
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Penny
08/18/09

In reply to "Good Ideas Have No Genitals," So Why's Advertising Still A Man's Game?
First of all, that Bobbie line is my favorite of anything I've seen on MM.

I am surprised to hear that women are lagging in creative, although I assume they mean exec-level creative? It's not clear.

I work in creative services for a retailer and, in fact, just had lunch last week with our CD (a woman). However, working for an agency and working for, say, web or retail are quite different when you're talking about creative, so I assume this is specifically speaking to advertising?

When it comes to selling an "image" I think the reason you see so many subtle male-focused advertising is the same reason (as Latoya brought up last week) unisex product is marketed to men. Women are better at crossing over and hurdling those boxes of sexuality than men when it comes to the gray areas. Obviously I am not talking about Carl's Jr. commercials (targeted to men) or....Yoplait (targeted to women). Think more along the lines of Apple, VW....Ikea, and the like.
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Edited by Penny at 08/18/09 3:57 PM Penny was starred Penny was unstarred

jigglyball
08/18/09

@Penny: I think that because "heterosexual male" has been the social default setting for so long, women have had to think beyond their own gendered and/or personal experience. That's rarely been required of men.

And I agree about Bobbie's quote- that stuck with me and I think is one of the best lines in the show. And while Bobbie may have been speaking specifically to women's sexual powers, as Sadie says in the post, I don't think the show was referring only to a woman's sexual arsenal.

Finally, I also work in a creative services department (though I'm on the content/ copy side, and the other half of our team does visual design), and the two heads of our team are women. However, we're in financial services, so the word "creative" is really stretching it.
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jigglyball
08/18/09

@jigglyball: Oh blast, I seem to be gray. My status, it has slipped.

Or not. I also seem to have promoted myself.

Please allow myself to introduce you to ... myself.
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Edited by jigglyball at 08/18/09 4:33 PM jigglyball was starred jigglyball was unstarred

valhalla_i_am_coming
08/18/09

In reply to "Good Ideas Have No Genitals," So Why's Advertising Still A Man's Game?
I had to leave advertising (my chosen profession) 10 years ago because there were just too many knives lodged in my back, too many of my creative ideas that were blatently stolen, just too many assholes with ego issues. I don't think it was because I'm female, I just think that's the way advertising is, and has been, for some time. Because this is over multiple agencies and cities in a 12-year time period.

Since then, I've been in IT...none of the same problems. There are assholes everywhere, granted, but not at the same saturation as advertising.
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mipsy6
08/18/09

In reply to "Good Ideas Have No Genitals," So Why's Advertising Still A Man's Game?
In television and film, it's the same way. There are a quite a few female executives, but far fewer female directors, story editors or key production talent. Somehow, women are empowered to supervise and organize the creative output, but not actually create something themselves.

I don't think there's one pat explaination for the imbalance, but some of it does come down to a boys club mentality in some creative contexts. There must be more to it, though. Honestly, I think women need to be encouraged to be creative leaders at an early age--high school or college--so by the time they get to Hollywood or Madison Ave it feels comfortable and normal to them. For some reason, many of the women I meet who are already working seem intimidated to push their creative ideas--even when dealing with female executives.
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Penny
08/18/09

@mipsy6: Yeah, what is that about? Is it simple gender conditioning? I am seriously considering making the transition from one creative field into another (art directing) and I am scared shitless. 10 people in a row could tell me how creative I am and that I have potential, but I will still not think I am good enough. Not sure if this is simply a personality/experience thing, though. Creative is tough, you have to be willing to have your ideas shot down, and a lot of people can't handle that.
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Bollywhaaa
08/18/09

@Penny: Exactly! In film school, the (mostly white) men were self-assured and had absolute faith that *everyone* needed to hear their stories about living in Williamsburg and falling for a Manic Pixie Dream Girl. They had always seen representatives of themselves on the big screen, and never questioned their place or ambitions. My crew of (mostly brown) women were always hemming-and-hawing with self-doubt. We felt out-of-place to begin with and weren't equipped to be assertive about ourselves and our stories, which were rarely validated by our Scorsese-worshipping professors. And what happened? Most of us ended up in different career fields (though I'm clawing my way back, damnit). It's so sad, and if I could travel back, I'd hug my eighteen-year old self and tell her to keep on doing her crazy thang, and to just have fun. And disregard the douchier film dudes and professors.
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mipsy6
08/18/09

@Penny: What's funny is that, as someone mentioned above, many men are taught this mentality that backing off their ideas = weakness. But, in a commercial creative field, where you're making creative content for a huge company, you HAVE to be able to collaborate. You must be willing to back off ideas, accept that someone else might even have a better idea (!) and/or accept the client's/network's crappy idea and make it as good as it can be. So men may have an easier time initally selling their ideas by being confident and aggressive, but once they're actually working on the campaign or TV show, that uber-confidence (or arrogance) is gonna get in the way of their success.
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bess marvin, girl detective
08/18/09

@Bollywhaaa: i was just thinking to myself (i'm a screenwriter) that if i read another quirky white man-child being loved by an more attractive white manic pixie i am going to shove Final Draft up someone's ass.
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