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shewar
01/26/09

In reply to What Women Want? To Talk About What Women Want
Really great post, Anna and Megan. I've been avoiding this piece due to a strong fear of my head exploding (or perhaps imploding). Thinking about the differences in male and female arousal is enough to reduce me to tears.

I'm still trying to figure out how a couple good rolls in the hay with a guy I don't even know could trigger anxiety attacks, depression, crying in the grocery store. I think to "wish to be the object of erotic admiration and sexual need" speaks volumes, and it blows my mind how much it personally controls my life.
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Nuckin Futz for you
01/26/09

In reply to What Women Want? To Talk About What Women Want
What do you think about when you masturbate, and how would you define it: As "giving pleasure" or "getting it"?
I think a lot of female oriented sex information is based on giving pleasure. So in a way the idea of a guy focused soley on us and not himself is of course a huge turn on. Where is the male equivalent scrunchie technique for females? Instead they get lame columns on putting your hand up her skirt, or eating her like and apple (wtf?). I love giving pleasure, but it took years to understand I should be expecting it back. So although giving is a turn on, I dont fantasize about it because in my experience it happens more then recieving does. How many shows feature a girl getting head in the bathroom, but Bad Girls Club (I think) had a girl blowing a guy. Maybe we are more conditioned not to be selfish in bed and when we masturbate there is no one else to be pleasing so we let our selfish side slip out for once and enjoy.
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Nuckin Futz for you
01/26/09

@Give me your nuts!: (eating her like an* apple) sorry fingers typed faster then my eyes
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Jesscooks
01/26/09

In reply to What Women Want? To Talk About What Women Want
I will say that if this research does anything at all to help men see that "wet" and "wanting" are two very different things, it would be a damn miracle.

Too many men I've 'known' simply feel around to see if things are properly lubricated as some indicator of whether foreplay time is over. Sorry, guys, but it's not that simple.
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veronykah
01/26/09

@Jesscooks: OMG these kind of comments are why I love Jezebel. Something I have never discussed with my female friends but now know I am not the only one to have experienced.

I also never thought about it as wet vs wanting...now I'll have a great way to explain it to the next one.
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Interrobanging
01/26/09

In reply to What Women Want? To Talk About What Women Want
Hmm this was very interesting. I also agree that narcissistic was the perfect word to use, but I think that the ways in which men and women are narcissistic are different in their sexual desires or socially. As someone stated up thread women want to be[possibly need to be?] wanted,I'm generalizing here of course, this is where the rape fantasy comes into play. This is your man [whomever you've consented to] wanting you so badly and at all cost and you being swept up by this notion that you are so very desirable that he has to have you. Whereas men want to be needed. I unfortunately think this is why a lot of men sleep with girls or toy with girls' emotions to the point where the woman is past the point of wanting, but needs them. Same with sex. The man likes that you are attracted and want him, but he LOVES that you beg for him. Maybe I'm not making any sense, but as an aggressive person in life who is submissive in the bedroom..this post has sparked lots of thought for me.
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veronykah
01/26/09

@It's Just the Way I Smile,She Said: Oooh, you put that SO well.

It explains my dominant in life/submissive in the bedroom personality ALWAYS falling for the guy that sees me as the challenge, because I won't give him the time of day, gets me, works me til he has me wrapped around his finger [no small feat!] then bails.

I love the whole being desired, he is trying to get me to NEED him...we have mutally exclusive ends. That so explains it all.

Fuck. Its kind of depressing, since those are the relationships that are always a huge turn on but then lead to where I am now, currently single for nearly a year after being eviscerated by the last jackass.
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shorty63136
01/26/09

In reply to What Women Want? To Talk About What Women Want
This was kinda thick, but definitely an interesting read.

I especially like the term "fluid sexuality". I'll try that one on my friends next time they ask me after church if I think I'm still bi.
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Grim Reaper of the Forest
01/26/09

In reply to What Women Want? To Talk About What Women Want
Narcissism was an extremely odd way to term the concept they were discussing. However, I thought it was spot on. I don't know that it is uniquely female, but I think part of reason passion might die down in a marriage is that sex is a given (notwithstanding sexless marriages which probably breed more resentment than desire). Desire can be stoked by not being able to get the object you desire, and the doubt about whether sex is actually going to happen. And I don't think many spouses are that "desperate" to sleep with each other.
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la.donna.pietra
01/26/09

@Grim Reaper of the Forest: And I don't think many spouses are that "desperate" to sleep with each other.

Oh, you'd be amazed. My grandparents were married for 63 years and kept the home fires stoked the whole time, if you get my drift.
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Grim Reaper of the Forest
01/26/09

@la.donna.pietra: Well, I still don't think it is the same thing psychologically as when you sleep with someone for the first time.
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la.donna.pietra
01/26/09

@Grim Reaper of the Forest: No, but I would hazard a guess (not knowing that much about the particulars of the home fire stokage) that some people get off on the new and mysterious, and some people get off on What New Cool Stuff Can We Do Tonight, and Can We Do Some of the Cool Stuff We Did Six Months ago? With Chocolate?

I also suspect that my grandpa fighting overseas in WWII and Korea (and getting caught behind enemy lines for several months and being declared MIA for several months) may have done a great deal to make new and mysterious look not all that interesting at all, in comparison with the good stuff that is a known quantity (that you haven't gotten for nine months). But my grandma was never very clear on the specifics.
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Grim Reaper of the Forest
01/26/09

@la.donna.pietra: I'm sure you are a happier person for not knowing the specifics of your grandparents and chocolate.
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Super_Kitten
01/26/09

In reply to What Women Want? To Talk About What Women Want
This passage seriously struck me:

"It's as if discovering that I was the object of someone's lust, interest, or curiosity flipped a switch inside me to the "on" position."

I am experiencing this now. I was lightly attracted to someone, but once he started flirting, all of a sudden I can't stop thinking about him. And the shitty part is, I bet he just did it offhandedly. So I am having fantasies and he is going about his life. Would he be turned on as much by my desire as I am by his? I find that an interesting conundrum/
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la.donna.pietra
01/26/09

@Super_Kitten: It could also be interpreted prosaically as "the human mating ritual." Flirting requires back-and-forth; otherwise, it ain't flirting. It's (one of the major ways) we get to know each other well enough to reproduce. You make an overture, he responds. He doesn't respond, you back off. Or you get a restraining order.

See also: the tango.

(It's a heck of a lot better than the male of the species building a bower or bringing you fish, in my opinion.)
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anibundel
01/26/09

In reply to What Women Want? To Talk About What Women Want
So I shared this with a GF and her response to Anna's "the underlying idea, "being desired is the orgasm"?

"It makes me think that women are chemically/biologically wired for poor self esteem."

Discuss?
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rollergirl76
01/26/09

@anibundel: Eh, I don't think so. I think it stems more from evolution and the primal need to procreate.
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info*ninja
01/26/09

@anibundel: HAHAHAHA.

Sorry, that is the only response i could come up with to the idea that women are wired for poor self esteem.

If she floats, she's not a witch!
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anibundel
01/26/09

@rollergirl76: It was just that up until that moment, everyone's reaction to the idea that "being desired is the orgasm" is a narcissistic trait...when in fact, does some of that have to do with..well ...There was a line in a play I saw once where the (overweight, unpopular) girl has a crush on the (nerdy unpopular) boy and her line is "I want you...because you are possible." The fact that we go for the one who wants us because we are partially wired (or perhaps nurtured) into believing that those who want us are the best we are going to do?

This isn't coming out quite right....
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la.donna.pietra
01/26/09

@anibundel: It's more that it casts things in a male-centric light. The woman has to have male desire in the first place to get off; her own desire is secondary and follows from his initiation. Which I'm sure makes a bunch of guys feel dandy, but makes no damn sense to me.

For instance: I desire Daniel Craig tremendously. He does not know I exist. I do not need his confirmation or validation to get off when I see:

[img2.timeinc.net]
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Super_Kitten
01/26/09

@anibundel: I see what you are saying. Evolution wants us to mate with the best person possible. So, we are looking for the most desirable partners, but we are also looking for a partner who we can actually mate with. Evolution doesn't necessarily speak much about happiness, as I see it, though it's debatable- but mates staying together to raise children is important, and "believing that those who want us are the best we are going to do" is important for staying together. It's kind of depressing though.
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Hazel
01/26/09

@la.donna.pietra: Was it talking about specifically male desire though, or just the feeling of being wanted in general? Couldn't it be applied to gay people too?
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la.donna.pietra
01/26/09

@la.donna.pietra: In addition, I do not fantasize about being wanted by Mr. Craig; if I ever did meet him, I'm sure I would squeak piteously and run away. Plus there's that whole Mr. Pietra-elect thing.

I just happen to think he looks smashing in a bathing suit. And a regular suit. And his birthday suit.
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rollergirl76
01/26/09

@anibundel: Hmm, interesting. However, I've had guys desire me, and I was not the slightest bit interested in them. Maybe I'm not wired right. I was under the impression that being desired by somebody you were attracted to was the key. I'm as baffled as you are, ha.
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anibundel
01/26/09

@la.donna.pietra: Oh, see, but I DO fantasize about being wanted by *thoroughly embarrassing celeb crush I refuse to admit to.* It's THE major component of the fantasy. I don't get off on just a picture (though pictures help start fantasy process.)

I hope I never meet said crush. EVER. It would ruin it.
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anibundel
01/26/09

@rollergirl76:

I've had guys desire me who I never thought twice about, and 9 times out of 10, they suddenly got attractive. But it never lasted past a few dates.

Being desired by somebody I was actually attracted to? Only happened twice: I married (and then divorced) the first one. I'm currently living with the second.
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anibundel
01/26/09

@Super_Kitten: It's extremely depressing. Anti-hope as it were.
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la.donna.pietra
01/26/09

@Hazel: For all the lip service the researchers paid to lesbians, they're still defining this whole "desire is the orgasm" thing as being wanted by men. And when it gets applied to gay men (as wanting to be desired), then you have the whole gloriously fucked-up gay-men-as-feminized-lesser-men... paradigm going on. Thanks, no.
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la.donna.pietra
01/26/09

@anibundel: I've got a couple of those crushes too (hi, Eli Manning!), but they're very different sorts of things.

As I explained it to Mr. Pietra: I would like to bone Vince Young (back when he was still actually being a quarterback), go out to dinner with Donovan McNabb, and have ice cream sundaes with Eli Manning.

Because Mr. Pietra is a wonderful person, he not only understood this demarcation completely, he did not feel the slightest bit threatened when I wound up jumping up and down while screaming hysterically during the last Super Bowl. Also, he hates the Patriots.
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Hazel
01/26/09

@la.donna.pietra: it's like the 30 rock game: marry, boff, kill.
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Cerridwen
01/26/09

@la.donna.pietra: Yes, it is very heteronormative.
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rollergirl76
01/26/09

In reply to What Women Want? To Talk About What Women Want
Women want to be wanted, and they want to feel as if the man who wants them cannot control himself. He is possessed with lust for her. However, this is not a rape fantasy: she does not want to be victimized. She is turned on by his need for her, and in turn, she surrenders her body willingly.

I was really surprised that some women experience orgasms during rape, but the more I thought about it, I realized that is just a physical reaction to an act taking place. However, I feel so awful for any woman who has experienced that because it must really effect them psychologically.
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chancentrate
01/26/09

In reply to What Women Want? To Talk About What Women Want
Great post! As i libve in London I will be printing out the article to read it myself...

One the rape-fantasy note I think it's the best phrase for it and it's not used to offend sexual assault victims. It can involve way more than just a "loss of control", that's just physical constraint which can be a small part of it. It is a fantasy about being raped, pure and simple and as soon as people's private sexual fantasies have to be politically correct I think we have a major problem.
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inabook
01/26/09

@chancentrate: I agree completely. Sure, people don't have to call their own fantasies rape-fantasy. But how can they really know what someone else fantasizes about?
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SomeAuthorGirl
01/26/09

In reply to What Women Want? To Talk About What Women Want
I am eager to read the actual article in full. I am fascinated (narcissistically?) with human sexuality and of course my own. The relation of the cultural and chemical on the Madonna/Whore thing is something that I seek to understand, though I usually add Mother to the phenomena itself.

Adding my voice to those who have already said so, I too think there should be a push to separate in study and in common thought the "rape fantasy" from "domination." Those are two disparate things. From a female self-worth or self-castigation point of view, it might help more women be comfortable making the distinction. Not that sexual fantasies of any nature by a healthy person are unhealthy - that's why they're called fantasies.

I need to give this more thought. I know what I 'll be reading this evening.

Thanks Megan and Anna. Might I say I really like it when the editors talk amongst themselves!
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special_boots
01/26/09

In reply to What Women Want? To Talk About What Women Want
I definitely get much more into guys who are into me. I once had the weirdest sexual obsession with this dude who wasn't remotely physically attractive, and I couldn't figure it the hell out, but I realize now that he wanted me so much that it drove me completely insane. In a good way.

Also: it seems like most of the women I know identify as, to some degree, submissive. Reading this article and the idea that women's desire is "narcissistic" got me to wondering: in a society that routinely attempts to destroy women's self-esteem in order to get them to buy products, could we be getting more submissive? That is, as it gets harder and harder for an ordinary woman to feel desirable, could the "naracissistic" desire to be wanted intensely be growing?

Man, it is so stressful to think about.
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la.donna.pietra
01/26/09

@special_boots: While I don't buy that women are necessarily all or even majority-submissive, I spent a LOT of time while reading this article thinking that our society was largely complicit in the "narcissistic" angle. If you're a woman, you've spent just about every conscious second being bombarded with images telling you that 1) you suck, and 2) if you would just buy this face cream/mascara/car/pair of jeans/light beer/house/jacuzzi/investment fund/dog/floor cleaner, everything will be all right, and Somebody will love you and want to be with you Forever and Ever, Amen. It affects every other aspect of our lives. Why didn't the damn researchers clue into that?
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exelizabeth
01/26/09

@special_boots: A guy being too into me is actually a big turn off for me. At a certain point I'm just like, "Dude, stop putting me on a fucking pedestal, stop trying to charm me, just treat me like a human being." Basically, wooing gets old, especially when you're not intersted in him.
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RainbowBrite
01/26/09

@special_boots: So I had a fling once with this guy who was good looking -- not like, Daniel Craig, but still very attractive. But what I found so hot about him was how he just oooooozed sex. Like, from our first few conversations he was just so sexual and unabashedly into me, it was a major turn on.
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special_boots
01/26/09

@exelizabeth: I don't mean into me romantically (which can be very irritating, depending on the person), but sexually--at least in the case of this one guy, who was actually kind of a jerk, but who thought I was the single sexiest woman he'd ever met and who looked at me in a way that left no doubt that he wanted to be having sex with me every moment we were together. I never looked at him twice, nor ever would've, till I realized how very, very much he wanted me.

It always weirded me out, being attracted to this guy who was sort of ugly and, like I said, sort of a jerk... but damn, was I ever.
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special_boots
01/26/09

@RainbowBrite: Ugh I know. That shouldn't work, but sometimes it really does...
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info*ninja
01/26/09

In reply to What Women Want? To Talk About What Women Want
"people with a strong aversion, morally or otherwise, to pornography are generally left out because of the inhibition factor mentioned in the piece."

See, the exclusion of "outliers" always makes it difficult for me to take studies like this seriously; i really think they are only useful to spark discussions like this one.
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safi
01/26/09

@info*ninja: I wondered about that part of it too. Even women who have no intellectual aversion to porn have still been living in a society where the idea of a woman enjoying porn is still kinda naughty. The mere act of watching sexually explicit images may be arousing, regardless of the content. I just don't see how it's possible to remove that construct - especially when excluding women who were intellectually averse to sexually explicit images.
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info*ninja
01/26/09

@safi: Yeah, at least it was explicitly said that biology can't be divorced from culture. Although, once that has been said, i think why go forward?
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safi
01/26/09

@info*ninja: I think that it's still important to go forward and ask questions about what's culturally true vs. biologically true and all the grey areas in between. As a culture we really are frightened of looking at the social origins of desire and gender roles. And maybe if enough discussion occurs, Rick Warren's head will explode like a pinata.

A girl can dream...
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Hazel
01/26/09

@safi: When the article was talkign about how men responded more evenly to stimuli (straight men were arosed by straight porn, gay by gay, etc), I wondered whether rick warren would agree to be a subject so that he could see the evidence that yes, he is indeed turned on by gay porn and that's why he has such an issue with gays.

i am a bad person.
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info*ninja
01/26/09

@safi: Yeah but there are like 2-4 states that have made teaching evolution illegal how many years after Darwin, who was practicing way harder science than this pseudo stuff. Warren gains power from hate and fear, people like him will find anything to use as a tool until we say no.
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safi
01/26/09

@info*ninja: The fact that Warren gains power from hate and fear is precisely why it's important to talk about how messy human sexuality really is. The more people ask questions of themselves and the people around them, the less they can be constrained by the ridiculous notions of 'traditional' masculinity and femininity. And it's important to point out that a lot of this stuff will never be hard science - it's vital to discuss the squishy cultural implications of things like the 'gay gene' or the sexual passivity of women precisely so the folks on the right can't hide behind pseudoscience and the Bible.
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info*ninja
01/26/09

@safi: "facts" can be used to prove anything, we have seen this time and again. I agree that it is important to have discussions, i just do not think that they have to be grounded in murky *science* to have an impact.
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inabook
01/26/09

In reply to What Women Want? To Talk About What Women Want
When it comes to the give/take thing-- I definately tend to think more about giving when I'm masturbating. I fantasize about going down on my boyfriend, about being leered at by a fictional boss, about being fucked instead of being the one to do the fucking. In sex, I prefer to be on top... but I never masturbate thinking about that position. I definately think more about his reactions than mine-- I can get off to the idea of my boyfriend coming, but to the idea of me coming? not so much.
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la.donna.pietra
01/26/09

@inabook: Whereas I'm the exact opposite: I definitely think about me being the one doing the fucking when it's a solo affair. Hooray, diversity!
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annakin
01/26/09

In reply to What Women Want? To Talk About What Women Want
I think you nailed (heh) it with the title. It seems like women want to talk (and talk) about sex and relationships and men and what it all means in light of their own experiences. Because the experience of a woman is meaningful and significant, because she is incessantly talking about it. And then there's the reflecting, and reacting, and expounding, and omg the feedback, and omg someone feels offended, and holy shit let's open up the lines of communication. Can we get back to the brutal and nasty, signifying nothing world of reality tv or hot guys or something? I hate to not love, but this stuff bores me to pants.
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yvanehtnioj
01/26/09

@annakin: Then skip this article. Personally, articles like this are why I read Jezebel.
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whynotshesaid
01/26/09

@annakin: I thought this was a great article. It's awesome that you are so in touch with your sexuality that you can just get down to the brutal nasty sex, but for a lot of women, sex is so bound up in social judgment, self-worth and double standards that it's necessary for them to look at things critically before they can feel free enough to get down and dirty like that.
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