The Hiram Monserrate thing is horrific. His victim doesn't want them to prosecute, though he's cut her face down to her skull. I'd be scared of him, too, if I were her. I'm glad it's up to the state. A man like that is a danger to women everywhere.
Someone says in the comments:
"So let’s see…Senator Monserrate engages in violence against his opposite-sex partner but is free to marry her, and meanwhile denies the attempts of the state to recognize the marriage between my long-term same-sex partner and myself.
Perhaps if my partner and I would abuse each other more often, then the good Senator might consider our relationship equal to those enjoyed by opposite-sex couples."
— fsm
With regards to women playing in the NBA, I have to wonder if taking the best women out of the WNBA would ultimately be bad for women in basketball. If the best players who would normally go to (or are currently in) the WNBA leave, the tiny motive people have to watch is gone and the WNBA is probably dead. It seems to me that even if they integrated the NBA, it would never be 50/50 men and women (at least not without a lot of other changes happening, I think), so actually there would be fewer opportunities for women in professional basketball (and men, too, if we had everyone in one league).
@nobodyr: A lot of young women are able to go to college and play in professional leagues because they are segregated. There are scores of women who are good enough to play with other women, but not against the men. While somebody like Lisa Leslie is probably able to play against guys to a degree, think of all the women who wouldn't even come close to getting a chance. Taking the best players from the WNBA and putting them in the NBA would be a disaster for womens' basketball.
The best parallel may be U.S. Baseball prior to Jackie Robinson. Once he was able to play in the Major Leagues, and guys like Larry Doby and Satchel Paige got to play against the white folks soon thereafter, the Negro League collapsed. A lot of guys who were able to make a living playing in the Negro Leagues simply weren't good enough to play in the Majors, and no matter what they did, they couldn't maintain the community's interest in a minority-only league.
I'm not saying segregation in baseball was good, but merely that there could be an unintended consequence.
@telecomic the thoughtful red panda: Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant. And since women tend to be shorter on average than men, and less fast on average, and tend to have a less-dramatic vertical jump on average, I think it's reasonable to guess that the percentage of women in the NBA would remain small.
I'm willing to accept that it's unlikely a woman can meet the physical requirements of being a linebacker, but is there a logical reason that women aren't allowed to be kickers or punters in the NFL?
Ugh, can we just shorthand this one? I'm really not in the mood.
"Women can't play basketball with men!"
"Yes they can!"
"They'll get hurt! Men are bigger and stronger!"
"Women can be big and strong, too, and maybe the men could try to not play basketball with their elbows once in a while!"
"I didn't mean that women aren't strong; I just mean that men and women play differently. I'm not sexist! College teams and NBA teams play differently, too, does that make me elitist?"
"No, you're not elitist; you're a jerk!"
"Fuck you!"
"Fuck you twice!"
"Well, even if they do put women on the teams, it'll just be for show. They'll bench them until Kobe pulls his groin."
"Why do you always have to talk about your groin?"
"I wasn't talking about my groin! I was talking about Kobe's groin!"
"I guess you'd be more supportive of gay guys on the NBA than women, huh? Because you're gay."
"Shut up. You are."
"So's your face."
"Real mature."
"Are we still talking about basketball?"
"I don't think so. You wanna go get a drink or something?"
"Yes! Let's get out of this hell hole comment. It's going on for god-damn ever!"
@la.donna.pietra: Would never happen for CP, but she was awesome at OU.
The commish made the right point . . . someone fast and that can shoot. If you had the female version of say a BJ Armstrong -- good ballhandler that can run to the corners and drain threes, its possible -- shooters always find a home.
Having said that, the NBA has to be the toughest league to break into, as there are only 360-400 spots at any given time and its popularity in the world is extremely high.
Baseball has 750 spots and Football has about 1700
.
WRT football, football has kickers and, if you could find a sprinter that could catch, you may have a 9-route WR (although many DBs would be world class sprinters with the right training).
@MyNameIsChris: I can't think of any professionally but on University campuses, maybe soccer could be considered contact? I always felt that baseball could pretty easily become coed if there was equal funding for women's baseball and softball teams. Even if you debate the woman's ability to hit home runs, you're looking at players who would still be fast runners, good fielders and accurate hitters, getting sacrifice hits and stuff.
@MyNameIsChris: It depends on whether you consider Ultimate Frisbee a physical contact sport. (Like basketball, it's supposed to have incidental contact only.) The co-ed version tends to be somewhat less physical than the men's version, but people still get lit up every now and again.
@itsonreserve: Yeah totally... I think it goes without saying at a pure skill level the best females can be comparable to the males. It's just a matter of the physical nature of a sport like basketball.
I tend to think their are plenty of female basketball players that would be game to take the physical punishment, but I also doubt the males would feel comfortable really knocking a woman to the floor in the way they would with another male.
they may be contaminated with Bacilus cereus bacteria, which causes diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. The goal is to make you lose weight, right? That'll do it.
"She also found to get day care for the children of Senate employees and and forced fellow senators to wear bathing trunks in the Senate gym so she could work out there too."
So is the implication that they used to work out naked? Love it.
@mbmargarita: That's exactly what I was thinking. Does she mean in the steam rooms or the pool? I would think you'd need some ball support during a work out.
@mbmargarita: I was just checking to see if someone else commented on it. Why would Senators swim naked in the gym?
Sometimes I feel like I have no concept of what life was like before the 1990s. Naked exercise? How is that something that even existed in the 20th century, let alone in Congress? It's like Sparta or the wrestling matches Homer writes about.
I got a notice from my grocery delivery service saying to discard any Slim-Fast immediately. Um... it's been about a year since I last purchased it, so it's kind of late for that. Makes me wonder if that was around the same time that I last had what I thought was the flu?
A lot of male athletes are portrayed in this 'glam' light. I think the article is mixing issues. If you want women's sports to exist at the level of men's, then a glam photo shoot in understated dresses with a limo is certainly indicative of a sport that the school is investing money in. BTW, that shot up there, in a bronze dress with braided hair and tatoos showing, is 'power glam,' very appropriate for female athletes. It's Angelina Jolie c. 1996, not Cinderella.
The 'no lesbians' thing is another issue entirely. (Coz the girl in the pic? Could pass for a hot butch, imo.) It's SOP in sports that athletes be a clean, all-American bunch. There's no gay people in baseball!
This site is for recruiting. It looks like the team is trying to present the idea that they're all friends, support each other and have a great time while doing it. Even the coach confirms this for me by saying "We wanted to have a product that would stand out to the people we are trying to reach." Who is the coach concerned with reaching out to through a web site? Future players, first and foremost, and keeping up morale among current and past players. Reaching fans is the SID's job and considering this site is NOT on the school's official athletics site, I'm guessing the SID doesn't run it.
That's what I got from my investigating. I got zero vibes of "let's look straight!" or "let's look hot and attract male fans!" This is entirely my opinion, but I think this is being made into something that it's not, and that's frustrating and annoying as someone who's a diehard sports fan and sometimes (not very good) athlete.
Also, it took a lot for me to defend anything having to do with the Seminoles, so this is an opinion I definitely stand behind.
@Apollonia: The problem is that these things don't exist in a vacuum: it's about enforcing strict societal and cultural rules regarding femininity and the acceptable forms it can take. As the article above notes: what has beauty got to do with it? and what happens to those women who are kick-ass sportswomen but physically unattractive? At the very least they could try challenging ideas regarding acceptable femininity, rather than reinforcing them.
@DexterHaven: I think they just wanted to convey the image of wanting to get dressed up and laughing together. I don't think it should be necessary for them to have to stop and think "are we reinforcing acceptable ideas of femininity instead of combatting unfair stereotypes of what women should embody?" And besides, some women find strength and empowerment in dressing up glam and taking photos. There's nothing wrong with that at all, as long as it's their choice.
And who's the judge of physically unattractive? I personally think if someone's a kick ass sportswoman, that alone makes them attractive, glam clothing and makeup or not.
@Apollonia: Good for you, but sadly you are very very far from being representative. It's called the patriarchal double bind: look into it. As I said, we would love to think gender images exist in a vacuum: they don't.
They are trying to sell tickets, promote the program. The men's team isn't hurting for spectators, but that isn't the case for the women (see also: NBA/WNBA). There is a regular "official" site that is just like the men's site. This one you have on here is really just a marketing ploy.
And do male athletes get used in the same way? David Beckham...Rafa Nadal...Federer...Cristiano Ronaldo...Tom Brady...Mark Sanchez. You've never seen their appearances used to appeal to female spectators/fans?
Even at FSU, they're not exactly hiding Christian Ponder.
@fulanita: Yeah, but in mens' sports physical attractiveness is allowed to be one part of an overall package without compromising their status, and even relatively unattractive males can be rendered hot by their sporting prowess. The rules are different for women.
@DexterHaven: No one's status in any sport is compromised by being attractive. If anything, as is the case here, said attractiveness will be used to sell tickets. In the case of this website, they aren't denigrating these women's athletic abilities, they are just using physical attractiveness to promote their program.
There's no question it helps. David Beckham is not now and never has been the best soccer player out there, but his presence is a boon for any team he plays on. There are kids in Korea wearing LA Galaxy shirts, not because of his ability but rather because of his image. Anna Kournikova made millions for herself and every tournament she played in for the same reason. How is Beckham's exploiting of his image any different than hers?
@fulanita: Even David Beckham doesn't pose for AC Milan photos in a tux or topless. Even he retains the look of professionalism when it is connected with this playing image. Glamour for men and for women has incredibly different connotations: you might not like that, but it's true.
I'm not surprised by these images. I don't call them indicators of homophobia as much as I see them as attempts at reinforcing strict gender identity rules. It's sort of like this unspoken quid pro quo - the woman gets to play sports and do "boy things" as long as she is willing to work extra hard at "being a girl" in all other ways. Homophobia is certainly a part of it, but it is just a small part of a much bigger issue, in which the gender identities of women who venture into traditionally male-dominated territory are subject to an extra-heavy dose of policing.
It's an ongoing issue in the field of women's athletics, and one I could talk about for hours and hours. Title IX may have paved the way for women to take to the fields and the courts, but the rest of our society has a fuck load of catching up to do.
@whynotshesaid: I agree, I don't think it's specifically hetero vs. homosexual, I think it's overemphasizing the feminine in order to make it "okay". I definitely know how hard it is to get support for women's sports. People blatantly dislike women's basketball because it 'ruins the game' or some sort of bull like that. They don't deny it, they're proud of it. So while I understand the school wanting to attract views and sell tickets, this is hardly the way to do it.
This is definitely not the first time it's been done tho, it happens all the time. on the rare occasion that a woman graces the pages of sports illustrated, it's much more likely that you'll see her off the court/field/water/etc, and instead sitting naked outside of the arena with strategically placed equipmen. While showing female athletes in outside their sport is fine, it shouldn't be the only way they are appearing in a SPORTS magazine. and most of the time, it is.
But among college athletes at least, i've seen that when there is a reputation or rumor or homosexuality, a lot of the women feel they must combat it with a strong showing of heteronormative behavior. a few of my teammates actually gained reputations in the other direction (called sluts) because of the way they reacted to the pressures to be 'feminine' or hetero.
@sarahmick.86 summer: Exactly. I agree with everything you said. and also, I am sorry to hear that happened with your teammates. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, huh?
As much as we as a society talk a good game about women and girls who play sports, the fact is people still find it transgressive. Hence all the pressure for female athletes to be pretty and ladylike and polite and wear dresses and pose in string bikinis. They can be competitive but not too competitive, aggressive but not that aggressive. Otherwise they are being unfeminine, and we can't have that, not at all.
I don't see this as homophobic, just hard-core marketing - and that is my problem with Division 1 college athletics; student athletes are marketed as a "product." I find this example particularly nefarious, though, because male student athletes tend to be marketed as fierce competitors, whereas FSU seems to have just thrown in the towel and decided to market their women's team as "pretty" rather than "awesome basketball players." If individual players like getting dolled up on their own time, that's awesome - but I object to the school forcing them into an image that has nothing to do with their athletic ability. Women's athletics already struggle for parity with men's programs (even with title IX, even at major schools, women's teams consistently get the second-best facilities, equipment and budgets). This isn't really helping their cause.
12/06/09
Someone says in the comments:
"So let’s see…Senator Monserrate engages in violence against his opposite-sex partner but is free to marry her, and meanwhile denies the attempts of the state to recognize the marriage between my long-term same-sex partner and myself.
Perhaps if my partner and I would abuse each other more often, then the good Senator might consider our relationship equal to those enjoyed by opposite-sex couples."
— fsm
12/04/09
12/04/09
12/04/09
12/05/09
The best parallel may be U.S. Baseball prior to Jackie Robinson. Once he was able to play in the Major Leagues, and guys like Larry Doby and Satchel Paige got to play against the white folks soon thereafter, the Negro League collapsed. A lot of guys who were able to make a living playing in the Negro Leagues simply weren't good enough to play in the Majors, and no matter what they did, they couldn't maintain the community's interest in a minority-only league.
I'm not saying segregation in baseball was good, but merely that there could be an unintended consequence.
12/07/09
12/04/09
12/04/09
12/04/09
I see the problem here. A tip, Hunter - probably the people you ATTACK are going to say that.
12/04/09
"Women can't play basketball with men!"
"Yes they can!"
"They'll get hurt! Men are bigger and stronger!"
"Women can be big and strong, too, and maybe the men could try to not play basketball with their elbows once in a while!"
"I didn't mean that women aren't strong; I just mean that men and women play differently. I'm not sexist! College teams and NBA teams play differently, too, does that make me elitist?"
"No, you're not elitist; you're a jerk!"
"Fuck you!"
"Fuck you twice!"
"Well, even if they do put women on the teams, it'll just be for show. They'll bench them until Kobe pulls his groin."
"Why do you always have to talk about your groin?"
"I wasn't talking about my groin! I was talking about Kobe's groin!"
"I guess you'd be more supportive of gay guys on the NBA than women, huh? Because you're gay."
"Shut up. You are."
"So's your face."
"Real mature."
"Are we still talking about basketball?"
"I don't think so. You wanna go get a drink or something?"
"Yes! Let's get out of this hell hole comment. It's going on for god-damn ever!"
12/04/09
"Somebody in the NBA draft Courtney Paris already!"
12/04/09
The commish made the right point . . . someone fast and that can shoot. If you had the female version of say a BJ Armstrong -- good ballhandler that can run to the corners and drain threes, its possible -- shooters always find a home.
Having said that, the NBA has to be the toughest league to break into, as there are only 360-400 spots at any given time and its popularity in the world is extremely high.
Baseball has 750 spots and Football has about 1700
.
WRT football, football has kickers and, if you could find a sprinter that could catch, you may have a 9-route WR (although many DBs would be world class sprinters with the right training).
12/04/09
12/04/09
12/04/09
12/04/09
I tend to think their are plenty of female basketball players that would be game to take the physical punishment, but I also doubt the males would feel comfortable really knocking a woman to the floor in the way they would with another male.
12/04/09
12/04/09
12/04/09
So is the implication that they used to work out naked? Love it.
12/04/09
12/04/09
Sometimes I feel like I have no concept of what life was like before the 1990s. Naked exercise? How is that something that even existed in the 20th century, let alone in Congress? It's like Sparta or the wrestling matches Homer writes about.
12/04/09
I got a notice from my grocery delivery service saying to discard any Slim-Fast immediately. Um... it's been about a year since I last purchased it, so it's kind of late for that. Makes me wonder if that was around the same time that I last had what I thought was the flu?
11/25/09
The 'no lesbians' thing is another issue entirely. (Coz the girl in the pic? Could pass for a hot butch, imo.) It's SOP in sports that athletes be a clean, all-American bunch. There's no gay people in baseball!
11/24/09
That's what I got from my investigating. I got zero vibes of "let's look straight!" or "let's look hot and attract male fans!" This is entirely my opinion, but I think this is being made into something that it's not, and that's frustrating and annoying as someone who's a diehard sports fan and sometimes (not very good) athlete.
Also, it took a lot for me to defend anything having to do with the Seminoles, so this is an opinion I definitely stand behind.
11/24/09
11/24/09
And who's the judge of physically unattractive? I personally think if someone's a kick ass sportswoman, that alone makes them attractive, glam clothing and makeup or not.
11/25/09
11/25/09
11/25/09
11/24/09
And do male athletes get used in the same way? David Beckham...Rafa Nadal...Federer...Cristiano Ronaldo...Tom Brady...Mark Sanchez. You've never seen their appearances used to appeal to female spectators/fans?
Even at FSU, they're not exactly hiding Christian Ponder.
11/24/09
11/24/09
There's no question it helps. David Beckham is not now and never has been the best soccer player out there, but his presence is a boon for any team he plays on. There are kids in Korea wearing LA Galaxy shirts, not because of his ability but rather because of his image. Anna Kournikova made millions for herself and every tournament she played in for the same reason. How is Beckham's exploiting of his image any different than hers?
11/25/09
11/24/09
It's an ongoing issue in the field of women's athletics, and one I could talk about for hours and hours. Title IX may have paved the way for women to take to the fields and the courts, but the rest of our society has a fuck load of catching up to do.
11/24/09
This is definitely not the first time it's been done tho, it happens all the time. on the rare occasion that a woman graces the pages of sports illustrated, it's much more likely that you'll see her off the court/field/water/etc, and instead sitting naked outside of the arena with strategically placed equipmen. While showing female athletes in outside their sport is fine, it shouldn't be the only way they are appearing in a SPORTS magazine. and most of the time, it is.
But among college athletes at least, i've seen that when there is a reputation or rumor or homosexuality, a lot of the women feel they must combat it with a strong showing of heteronormative behavior. a few of my teammates actually gained reputations in the other direction (called sluts) because of the way they reacted to the pressures to be 'feminine' or hetero.
11/24/09
As much as we as a society talk a good game about women and girls who play sports, the fact is people still find it transgressive. Hence all the pressure for female athletes to be pretty and ladylike and polite and wear dresses and pose in string bikinis. They can be competitive but not too competitive, aggressive but not that aggressive. Otherwise they are being unfeminine, and we can't have that, not at all.
11/24/09
11/24/09