I'm really confused about the Santhi Soundarajan case. If she is insensitive to testosterone how would she have a demonstrable advantage over other women? Is the Y a chromosomal advantage on it's own that would make her naturally better at running than her female competitors? Furthermore why is a genetic advantage in a woman unfair while a genetic advantage in a man (I say Michael Phelps must have some fish DNA, test him for that!) is accepted? Aren't all athletes genetically advantaged over regular human beings? Let's stop them from competing because it's unfair to us normal humans who will never be able to run/swim that fast or jump that high!
THis is so infuriating. There is no chance that these same women would be tested if they weren't as good as they are, so it really has nothing to do with their supposed 'manly' looks. It has to do completely with them being considered too good to be women.
Therefore, in response, I demand a genetic test of Usain Bolt to prove he doesn't have ladyparts. I chose to believe his awesomeness is because he's a girl. Michael Phelps, too.
@JerkoftheMonth: that makes no sense, though. Men outperform women uniformly in these events, and so a woman pretending to be a man would be handicapping themselves in terms of competition.
Moreover, of course this is about performance, not appearance. Why should the other competitors care if a male-looking "female" is competiting but failing? You only care about people cheating when they win, for the same reason. If they're losing, they're not hurting anyone.
I guess this answers my question from last week's thread about how sports officials handle athletes with hormonal or genetic variations in sex. Ridiculous.
Santhi Soundarajan sounds like an amazing woman, and I'm really glad that she's doing something positive for future runners.
@DutchessOfDork: It's like Robin Williams' bit about how only having one testicle makes Lance Armstrong more aerodynamic, only not funny. So really, it's actually exactly the same.
I think this is difficult, though, because there isn't some universal medical definition of gender (apparently chromosomes aren't enough) but sports are divided very much into two camps that have only old-fashioned views of gender used as definitions. We know it's unwise to lump all humans together into one competition, but is it really feasible (and, ultimately, just going to marginalize intersex people) to have an "other" group of competitors? So, really, if we're going to try to fit the square gendered pegs of the world into one of two gender "holes," there needs to be an honest and candid conversation about what male and female mean in the athletic world. Automatically stripping someone of their accomplishments if they turn out to be intersex is obviously unhelpful, but so is a) blasting the fact that gender testing is done at all and b) having a knee-jerk reaction any time anyone IS ousted because of intersex issues. There will be zero motivation to create clear guidelines if, when someone doesn't pass those guidelines against their self-identity (because it just cannot be only based on self-identity), there is a moral outrage.
@schweppes: I very much agree that it's a more complicated issue than most posters are making it. The race officials, at least in Semenya's case, have made it clear that simply being intersex isn't cause for elimination. You have to have a condition that provides you with a genetic advantage based on your sex. A lot of people seem to be calling for an end to that, and letting anyone who is intersex but identifies as a woman compete in the women's division. But what happens if we do that? Well, coaches will start sex testing early on, and refuse to coach most, if not all, of the females that come to them in favor of coaching runners with genetically advantageous intersex conditions. Given identical training, those with advantageous intersex conditions would beat out females in all but the very, very rarest of cases . . . so why even bother training females, then?
I don't see that as an ideal solution, either. And to be honest, I can't really think of a solution that doesn't put somebody at an unfair advantage.
From the article by Mary Buckheit, which says it better than I can:
"But like so many other female athletes, her athletic prowess and physical appearance have triggered a barrage of personal questions that male athletes don't have to deal with.
Shaquille O'Neal is a veritable giant, genetically unlike almost any man we know, but we don't ask if he's human. Instead, we call him an athletic freak. A superman. Michael Phelps' torso-to-leg proportions, combined with his large paddle-like hands, make him a marine machine. Yet we call it a gift, not a laughable genetic blunder. Jockeys with 27-inch waists and small shoulders might lack the physical stature we've come to expect of men. Still, we don't call them womanly. We deem them built to race horses.
There's an undeniable double standard at work in sports. As long as women have competed (and as long as evolving attire has allowed us to see their bodies), people have depreciated and humiliated some of the best female athletes by calling them manly. Their enigmatic strength and athleticism is countered with derisive criticism and gender judgments. Society wants women to be toned, not muscular. That's weird. It hopes women are athletic, but not too competitive.
[...] What if we assume Semenya is telling the truth? (As we should.) What if she is just an 18-year-old South African woman? What if she's not a cheater? What if she's not on the juice? What if she's just a remarkable athlete?
There are so many things to consider in these sensitive situations. The first is that we're not asking someone to prove that his or her urine and blood are clean. We're asking someone -- today, a South African teenager -- to justify what we've been conditioned to consider male or masculine. We're asking her for an alibi for her inexplicable athleticism."
This is absurd. AIS doesn't make you a man! She is a woman, and I think it's unfair for her to be banned from competing because of a y chromosome that does nothing. Is she suppose to run as a man when she lives as a woman? That's insulting.
Good lord, that is beyond ridiculous. I am so damn sick of this gender essentialism; if Soundajaran has androgen insensitivity, that means that she is actually *insensitive to testosterone*! She probably has less reaction to it than I do! But because she's got a Y chromosome, she's suddenly not a woman? And then you get this wide-eyed sensationalism with prurient reports about something that could destroy everything these young women have worked for.
Ok, here's what I still don't understand about either case: They were "suspicious she was using performance enhancing drugs." Why, then, did they ask them to undergo sex testing? Even if the test detects both gender and drugs, I don't understand why people are acting as though "We think you're using steroids" and "We think you're a man" are one and the same, or interchangeable.
And yet most media outlets missed out on the greatest sports story of the weekend: Christie Rampone coached and captained her team to the first Women's Pro Soccer championship while three months pregnant. That's the most hardcore thing I've ever heard.
I don't mind articles about how athletes who happen to have vaginas combine motherhood and sports. Bearing a child is very physically taxing and it will effect any physical career- sports, dance, construction, carpentry.
But I am really offended by the idea that I should care what eyeliner competitive female surfers wear. No one expects me to care how Tom Brady accentuates his shoulders in his fashion choices.
@clevernamehere: I agree about the motherhood thing, IF the conversation is about the physical feat of pregnancy, childbirth, then getting back into elite physical condition. The fact that Paula Radcliffe won the NYC marathon 9 months after giving birth is incredible, and should be celebrated.
What bothers me is when commentators say things like, "She must be thinking about her little girl right now" or "She's doing this for moms everywhere!" There's this weird assumption that athletes who are also mothers are driven by their children, whereas nobody ever says that about male athletes who are also fathers. It's just treated in a way that's really different.
Last week, Caster Semenya's gender identity made big news as people began to question whether a woman, who "looks like a man," as everyone kept reminding us, could really be such a good athlete.
For the last time, the IAAF did not request that she be tested solely because she "looks like a man," although she does, undeniably.
The sex identification test -- a battery of examinations -- was requested after several red flags:
Well before she competed in Berlin, her testosterone test showed that she had three times the normal level of testosterone in her system. She also showed a highly unusual degree of improvement in a very short time. There also was at least one protest pursuant to the IAAF's rules, which originated in her native South Africa.
@1.1.1.: I pointed this out in a thread a week or so back - it wasn't just "she looka like a man;" her times showed a really rapid improvement, which, under most circumstances, would only happen with some, err, extra enhancements. (Usain Bolt, in contrast, was totally dominating at the junior level, and no one who follows track and field was surprised he would continue to dominate at the senior level. although i find the gap between him and his competition pretty damn shocking. anyway, that is neither here nor there)
Problem is, most of the dopers are ahead of the tests. Semenya, from what I heard, passed her drug test. So did Armstrong, Bolt, and Phelps. Are they juicin' it up? I don't know - if we keep their old pee in a fridge somewhere, maybe ten years from now we can test it and find out. Today, we give them the benefit of the doubt, since they made it through all the tests their respective sports use, but in reality, we can't know, because the testing can't keep up with the cheating. Sad but true.
The IAAF officials know this - they realize that they can't pick up all the new doping with the current tests - and another commenter mentioned use of testosterone directly in doping, so this may be another way of determining whether her newly-improved times were a natural miracle, or a result of more nefarious behavior.
While the marketing of athletes is constructed, isn't it sort of logically inevitable that athletes' bodies are going to veer towards either perfect (here, "sexy") or freakish (here, "manly" although for men this can be things like 350lb NFL lineman or 7'1'' NBA centers) because of the very nature of playing competitive sports at the highest level? The intense training leads towards "sexy" bodies in sports like tennis or volleyball, while the benefits of being as physically masculine as possible while still being considered a woman (which I mean in the Caster Semanya/East German Olympic team way, not in the "every woman in the WNBA is a dyke" one) in sports like track or swimming?
Even if we remove or even out aspects between the sexes that are purely constructed (like say, women no longer feeling like they need to wear makeup while competing or men wearing similarly skimpy bathing suits), sex can and still be marketed. Just because now say, Maria Sharapova is wearing baggy shorts and a polo shirt while competing doesn't make her tennis-toned body less spectacular than it was when she was wearing skirts.
@JP Meyer: You don't see nearly as many sexy photos of lesser known male athletes as you do lesser known female athletes. Competitive athletes tend to have great bodies, but the female athletes are much more sexualized by the media. I don't think I've ever seen a shirtless paparazzi photo of Eli Manning, but I've sure seen paparazzi shots of Maria Sharapova at the beach.
This is such a tough subject. I agree that just being sexy (as opposed to successful) should not equate to endorsements for an athlete. Anna Kournikova is the most relevant example, but many of her endorsement contracts started when she was sweeping the floor with opponents on the junior circuit, poised, it appeared to dominate on the senior circuit. Then she didn't succeed on the tennis court, but she did on the marketing front. In the end, good for her and not, in my opinion, bad for tennis.
But, the same happens in men's sports. Matt Leinert was/is talented, but he's not a top NFL QB, but he has endorsement deals tied to his looks, not his success on the field thus far.
In marginal sports -- that don't have big audiences (like surfing) -- athletes often have to take every possible advantage. The tough part is that more men than women watch more sports. It's a fact. What it has been historically driven by is generally irrelevant to the marketers. They want the male audience. The other thing is that pretty things -- good looking women -- draws a female audience as well. While maybe not as much as we used to, women buy glossy magazines with pretty people and pretty clothes inside because we (collectively and stereotypically) like pretty things. Why not pretty athletes?
Personally, I'd rather watch Tom Brady in spandex than any member of the Pats offensive line, because he's sexier. Why does Brady get a pass (heh) for trading on his looks but Danica Patrick does not? Or these surfer girls? I don't think it should be the only thing that sells female athletes to the world, but it certainly is one of the things.
09/02/09
09/02/09
Therefore, in response, I demand a genetic test of Usain Bolt to prove he doesn't have ladyparts. I chose to believe his awesomeness is because he's a girl. Michael Phelps, too.
09/02/09
Moreover, of course this is about performance, not appearance. Why should the other competitors care if a male-looking "female" is competiting but failing? You only care about people cheating when they win, for the same reason. If they're losing, they're not hurting anyone.
09/02/09
Santhi Soundarajan sounds like an amazing woman, and I'm really glad that she's doing something positive for future runners.
09/02/09
09/02/09
09/02/09
09/02/09
[sportales.com]
09/02/09
09/02/09
I don't see that as an ideal solution, either. And to be honest, I can't really think of a solution that doesn't put somebody at an unfair advantage.
09/02/09
09/02/09
Here's an awesome commentary on Caster Semenya: [sports.espn.go.com]
From the article by Mary Buckheit, which says it better than I can:
"But like so many other female athletes, her athletic prowess and physical appearance have triggered a barrage of personal questions that male athletes don't have to deal with.
Shaquille O'Neal is a veritable giant, genetically unlike almost any man we know, but we don't ask if he's human. Instead, we call him an athletic freak. A superman. Michael Phelps' torso-to-leg proportions, combined with his large paddle-like hands, make him a marine machine. Yet we call it a gift, not a laughable genetic blunder. Jockeys with 27-inch waists and small shoulders might lack the physical stature we've come to expect of men. Still, we don't call them womanly. We deem them built to race horses.
There's an undeniable double standard at work in sports. As long as women have competed (and as long as evolving attire has allowed us to see their bodies), people have depreciated and humiliated some of the best female athletes by calling them manly. Their enigmatic strength and athleticism is countered with derisive criticism and gender judgments. Society wants women to be toned, not muscular. That's weird. It hopes women are athletic, but not too competitive.
[...] What if we assume Semenya is telling the truth? (As we should.) What if she is just an 18-year-old South African woman? What if she's not a cheater? What if she's not on the juice? What if she's just a remarkable athlete?
There are so many things to consider in these sensitive situations. The first is that we're not asking someone to prove that his or her urine and blood are clean. We're asking someone -- today, a South African teenager -- to justify what we've been conditioned to consider male or masculine. We're asking her for an alibi for her inexplicable athleticism."
09/02/09
09/02/09
09/02/09
09/02/09
09/02/09
08/31/09
09/03/09
08/31/09
But I am really offended by the idea that I should care what eyeliner competitive female surfers wear. No one expects me to care how Tom Brady accentuates his shoulders in his fashion choices.
09/01/09
What bothers me is when commentators say things like, "She must be thinking about her little girl right now" or "She's doing this for moms everywhere!" There's this weird assumption that athletes who are also mothers are driven by their children, whereas nobody ever says that about male athletes who are also fathers. It's just treated in a way that's really different.
08/31/09
For the last time, the IAAF did not request that she be tested solely because she "looks like a man," although she does, undeniably.
The sex identification test -- a battery of examinations -- was requested after several red flags:
Well before she competed in Berlin, her testosterone test showed that she had three times the normal level of testosterone in her system. She also showed a highly unusual degree of improvement in a very short time. There also was at least one protest pursuant to the IAAF's rules, which originated in her native South Africa.
09/03/09
Problem is, most of the dopers are ahead of the tests. Semenya, from what I heard, passed her drug test. So did Armstrong, Bolt, and Phelps. Are they juicin' it up? I don't know - if we keep their old pee in a fridge somewhere, maybe ten years from now we can test it and find out. Today, we give them the benefit of the doubt, since they made it through all the tests their respective sports use, but in reality, we can't know, because the testing can't keep up with the cheating. Sad but true.
The IAAF officials know this - they realize that they can't pick up all the new doping with the current tests - and another commenter mentioned use of testosterone directly in doping, so this may be another way of determining whether her newly-improved times were a natural miracle, or a result of more nefarious behavior.
08/31/09
Even if we remove or even out aspects between the sexes that are purely constructed (like say, women no longer feeling like they need to wear makeup while competing or men wearing similarly skimpy bathing suits), sex can and still be marketed. Just because now say, Maria Sharapova is wearing baggy shorts and a polo shirt while competing doesn't make her tennis-toned body less spectacular than it was when she was wearing skirts.
08/31/09
08/31/09
[deadspin.com]
08/31/09
But, the same happens in men's sports. Matt Leinert was/is talented, but he's not a top NFL QB, but he has endorsement deals tied to his looks, not his success on the field thus far.
In marginal sports -- that don't have big audiences (like surfing) -- athletes often have to take every possible advantage. The tough part is that more men than women watch more sports. It's a fact. What it has been historically driven by is generally irrelevant to the marketers. They want the male audience. The other thing is that pretty things -- good looking women -- draws a female audience as well. While maybe not as much as we used to, women buy glossy magazines with pretty people and pretty clothes inside because we (collectively and stereotypically) like pretty things. Why not pretty athletes?
Personally, I'd rather watch Tom Brady in spandex than any member of the Pats offensive line, because he's sexier. Why does Brady get a pass (heh) for trading on his looks but Danica Patrick does not? Or these surfer girls? I don't think it should be the only thing that sells female athletes to the world, but it certainly is one of the things.
08/31/09