women in prison

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MrPipeline
05/04/09

In reply to Pregnant Briton May Face Firing Squad In Laos
Rape versus consensual? I think we can all agree that the crime does not equal the punishment here and given that she is pregnant, killing her would be horrific.

What's confusing me is why are we jumping to the conclusion that this woman was raped. It's very possible that the sex was consensual.
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bluebears
05/04/09

@MrPipeline: she was in prison when the baby was conceived. it cannot, by definition, be consensual.
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malo-ji
05/04/09

In reply to Pregnant Briton May Face Firing Squad In Laos
"Orobator was arrested at Wattay Airport in Laos on August 6th, 2008 with 680g of heroin."

That's about 1.5 pounds!
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alibabathieves
05/04/09

In reply to Pregnant Briton May Face Firing Squad In Laos
For a group of ladies (and gents) who are generally thought of as progressive, I'm really disappointed that there are SO many comments saying "this is why i won't go to Laos/Russia/Mexico/Thailand/etc". REALLY? Yes, its terrible what has happened to this woman and others, but generally speaking, dont try to smuggle drugs! The chances of this happening are so small, especially if you are a law-abiding person. On holiday, stick to the "safe areas" if you must, and don't drink or smoke or do anything that seems questionable, and you'll be fine! These are beatuiful countries with beautiful people. The governments can have some nasty laws but this is the case for the majority of countries out there. We can learn so much from visiting foreign places. The fear is something reminiscent of the GOP. I thought everyone had learned by now that fear isn't the way to live. Just look at the mess fear has gotten us into: Iraq War. Vietnam War. Cold War. Iran Contra/Nicaragua affair. Covert actions against "dangerous" lefties in Guatemala. Rwandan genocide. Holocaust. Do I need to go on?
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Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.
05/04/09

@alibabathieves: I think the idea behind not visiting Laos has less to do with being incarcerated in a foreign country and more to do with not giving our tourist dollars to a country with so an abominable human rights track record. This is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to human rights within Laos.

Also, this probably won't be the last time I say this BUT we don't know if she is guilty of smuggling drugs. We don't know if she broke any laws or just pissed someone off. We don't know ANYTHING because we can't talk to her with out the Laotians present.
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Chuck Basketcase
05/04/09

In reply to Pregnant Briton May Face Firing Squad In Laos
I'm going to be the contrarian here - while I have some sympathy for the aftermath of her story (consulate bungle, possible rape, etc), she DID break the law. She admits she did it. You don't have to agree with these harsh laws in Laos/Indonesia/Thailand/etc, but who doesn't know that there are very serious consequences for smuggling drugs in these countries? If you're going to participate in these activities, then you have to serve the penalties if and when you get caught. You're not immune because you're a Western national. It sucks, yes, but this is the punishment - and it is VERY well documented.
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LaComtesse
05/04/09

@Chuck Basketcase: Yes. See my comment above.
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Eriu
05/04/09

@Chuck Basketcase: Does she admit she did it? Where?

Also, she may have been, and most likely was, forced. It's not black and white.

Lastly, where is it documented that rape is part of the punishment? Where's the rapist's firing squad?
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Laulau
05/04/09

@Chuck Basketcase: Given that we're talking possible torture and rape, here, the better response seems to me that other countries and the relevant NGOs should put up a fuss when Laos and others do this to their own citizens. I agree with the sentiment that citizens of privileged nations shouldn't expect special treatment. As over-the-top as it was, that was my reaction to Michael Fay's caning back in the 90s. But I just don't think it's a suitable response to rape, torture, and execution, whatever her crime.
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Chuck Basketcase
05/04/09

@Eriu: Above it says, "Orobator claimed that she was forced to carry drugs for a third party." That's admitting, no?

But as to the rape...it sucks, it's awful, but it doesn't have any bearing on whether or not she should be in a Laotian jail. What she (allegedly) did and what someone else did afterwards are two different issues. They are two different crimes. She is still just as responsible for any drug smuggling.

Lastly, I can't support "forced." It obviously wasn't physical violence - she made a choice for other reasons we don't know. And I know that people justify poor choices through extenuating circumstances, but the truth is, you can only be responsible for yourself. Can you truly "force" someone to do something? No, you can't.
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Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.
05/04/09

@Chuck Basketcase: Considering that all of the information that has been obtained thus far has either been supplied by the government detaining her or while she was in one of her supervised 20 minute visits with the British consulate, I highly doubt the validity of any of it. Maybe she didn't even have drugs. The bottom line is WE DON'T KNOW, because we can't even talk to her without Laotians present.

Can someone truly force you to do something? That my friend is an existential question, but if you are asking whether or not the threat of physical violence or harm to ones family can cause a person to do things they normally would not, I suggest you talk to some POWs. I'm sure they are well informed on the subject.
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MissFiFi
05/04/09

In reply to Pregnant Briton May Face Firing Squad In Laos
Think about this, if she was forced as a drug mule, sister had to think she would get caught and was probably terrified from the get go. Then she gets raped on top of it???? Such a catch 22 for her and their BS of no fax machine?? Nuke the fuckers.

I think it is high time everyone stops visiting these sadistic nations. Stopping money flow is the only way to hurt any country.
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katyusha
05/04/09

@MissFiFi: Stopping the money flow, particularly tourist dollars spent in locally-owned businesses, just hurts the ordinary person who lives - not necessarily willingly, given that Laos is a one-party system - under the regime.
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bluebears
05/04/09

@katyusha: I was going to write the same thing. The people don't really have any control over the government.
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LaComtesse
05/04/09

In reply to Pregnant Briton May Face Firing Squad In Laos
So while her abuse in prison is inexcusable, and while the punishment does not fit the crime, when are people going to learn that when you smuggle drugs in countries with horrifying prisons and strict drug laws, you may find yourself in prison at the mercy of those strict drug laws?

So why do we only protest these horrible laws/prisons/etc when a WESTERN CITIZEN is subjected to them? Why aren't we more concerned/enraged that this is happening to Laotians, that a government is doing this TO ITS OWN CITIZENS every single day?
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MissFiFi
05/04/09

@LaComtesse: it pisses me off too, but of course it takes a young pretty thing to get people outraged. Remember, most people are sh*t and selfish. The thing is, her plight may help Laotians and that is what I hope
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Eriu
05/04/09

@MissFiFi: Not saying I disagree with LaComtesse, but I don't think her appearance has much to do with it. That's a bit of a stretch. And she's not white so the usual missing white woman syndrome doesn't apply. Also, @LaComtesse: I believe she was born (and raised?) in Nigeria, and she may or may not actually be a British citizen I think, so calling her definitively Western isn't necessarily accurate.
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LaComtesse
05/04/09

@Eriu: It's not her appearance, it's her citizenship. She's being described by the press as a Westerner, ergo the public perception is such as well. (Personally, I've seen nothing to say otherwise.)
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MissyMcCLung
05/04/09

@LaComtesse: Personally, part of the reason I believe we protest more when a Western citizen is subject to bad laws and terrible justice, is the idea that Laotians at least have the ability to have some say in their government. Democratic or not, many people find ways to influence and effect their own government, an option not available to foreigners. Of course we should be speaking up against injustice all the time, but well, we don`t do a lot of things we should.
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Eric Northman is mine
05/04/09

In reply to Pregnant Briton May Face Firing Squad In Laos
Not just Laos, there are a lot of countries were it's automatic death by firing squad for drug trafficking/smuggling.
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NellMood
05/04/09

@Eric Northman is MINE (nee Sookie Stackhouse): holy hell, by firing squad? That's terrifying.
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MissFiFi
05/04/09

@Eric Northman is MINE (nee Sookie Stackhouse): NIgeria does that, but for human traffickers, I am all for it.
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Eric Northman is mine
05/04/09

@NellMood: yes it is and most justice systems aren't innocent until proven guilty but just figured I'd throw that out there before it becomes a Laos sucks type thread. And it's mostly death by firing squad or hanging but very it's brutal fate for those convicted of drug smuggling in quite a number of countries.
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Eric Northman is mine
05/04/09

@MissFiFi: Nigeria also does that for drug trafficking and sodomy in some areas.
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Eriu
05/04/09

@NellMood: Did you read the title of this post? This girl would be executed by firing squad, too.
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MissFiFi
05/04/09

@Eric Northman is MINE (nee Sookie Stackhouse): see, that is not good.
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Eric Northman is mine
05/04/09

@MissFiFi: exactly, which is why i'm not for it. Capital punishment is a lot of countries is very harrowing, discriminatory and often abuse. You can check out the Human Rights watchlist for more examples/information.
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Eric Northman is mine
05/04/09

@Eric Northman is MINE (nee Sookie Stackhouse): Sorry edits below

Capital punishment in a lot of countries is very harrowing, discriminatory and often abused. You can check out the Human Rights watchlist site for more examples/information.
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NellMood
05/04/09

@Eriu: Yes, I saw.

@Eric Northman is MINE (nee Sookie Stackhouse): It's terrifying to me how little I know about international justice systems. It's shocking that these kind of punishments exist.
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clotheswhorse
05/04/09

In reply to Pregnant Briton May Face Firing Squad In Laos
Facebook group:

[www.facebook.com]

The more attention this gets, the better her chances.
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NefariousNewt
05/04/09

@clotheswhorse: Thank you for that link -- I have joined and I suggest as many of us can as possible.
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bluebears
05/04/09

In reply to Pregnant Briton May Face Firing Squad In Laos
This is why I give every year to Amnesty International.
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Kittenish
05/04/09

@bluebears: This is why I'm going to start giving to Amnesty International every year. APPALLING!
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fluxus flucker
05/04/09

@bluebears: Amen! I do to. Even this year when things have been VERY hard for my family. Because even what my family is going through is heaven compared to what so many others face on a daily basis, for their entire lives. Amnesty does so much good work.
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bluebears
05/04/09

@fluxus flucker: @Kittenish has gone to the dogs...: Its such an important organization. These types of stories pop up every so often when a Westerner gets caught up in a foreign judicial system but people should realize that this is the reality for millions of people around the globe.
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clotheswhorse
05/04/09

In reply to Pregnant Briton May Face Firing Squad In Laos
Why the FUCK isn't the British gov't all over this?

I love to travel, but countries with drug-smuggling punishments like this are on the no-no list. Not that I want to smuggle drugs, but all it takes is someone sticking something in your luggage & this could be you.

Going to go pray that someone helps her? Is there anything we can do? Googling...
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bluebears
05/04/09

@clotheswhorse: honestly there isn't much they can do. besides provide her with legal representation.
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Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.
05/04/09

@clotheswhorse: This is my question too, where in the British Government? Not that I love government intervention, but this seems like a case for all sorts of public outcry and the like. Why is this is the first I've heard of it?
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gherkinfiend
05/04/09

@clotheswhorse: There is no British consulate in Laos, they have to come in from Bangkok...plus there is some query about her British citizenship. (None of which are as important as helping her, but just wanted to clarify!)

The case getting a lot of press the past few days in the UK and a slight glimmer of hope that a lawyer is en route to meet with her in the next 24 hours...

[news.bbc.co.uk]
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clotheswhorse
05/04/09

@bluebears:

It appears they haven't even managed that. Her MP needs too be ALL over this. Publicity & consequences must be heaped upon Laos.
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bluebears
05/04/09

@clotheswhorse: I mean, I agree, they need to raise a fuss and try to shame the government but...at the end of the day the BEST this woman can probably hope for is a life sentence.
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LaFemme
05/04/09

@clotheswhorse: Not that I support her inhumane treatment or her receieving the death penalty, but 680g of heroin is A LOT of heroin. Not exactly "slip it into your bag" and get caught. If the UK is anything like the US, they can provide her with a lawyer, but that is about it. Maybe ask for her extradition to jail her in the UK and save her from the death penalty.
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Hamsterpants
05/04/09

In reply to Pregnant Briton May Face Firing Squad In Laos
I have two words for y'all: "Midnight Express". If ever I had been tempted to do ANYTHING drug-related while abroad, that film nipped it in the bud for me.
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wooden_shoes
05/04/09

@Hamsterpants: is that the one set in Turkey in the 70s? I think I remember that movie..
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Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.
05/04/09

@Hamsterpants: Word, I watched it with my husband about 6 months ago and couldn't believe that this shit actually happens.
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Hamsterpants
05/04/09

@wooden_shoes: Yup, that's the one.
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Stabby McStabberson
05/04/09

@Hamsterpants: you beat me to it, i was just going to post about it. terrifying. and no i have the giorgio moroder soundtrack going through my head.
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ozu
05/04/09

@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: It's a great film but it's also very much fictionalized. Billy Hayes has been highly critical of the adaptation and has said that he was never subjected to any rape while in prison.
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Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.
05/04/09

@ozu: Right, I would never take the film as 100% truth, just the idea of having to escape from a foreign prison because you would never be released is frightening enough for me.
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Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.
05/04/09

@ozu: Also, of course he says he wasn't raped. I wouldn't want to have that depicted for my family to see either.
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margareita metermaid
05/04/09

In reply to Pregnant Briton May Face Firing Squad In Laos
wow. 680 g's is a helluva lot of heroin. This does not seem to be the actions of one solo 'entrepreneur'. And if she became pregnant 4 months after being incarcerated, there doesn't seem to be any question about her being raped. Is there any previous circumstances in countries that we know of of a pregnant woman being executed?
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NefariousNewt
05/04/09

In reply to Pregnant Briton May Face Firing Squad In Laos
Well, this is a sucky way to start a Monday! Still, you cannot be too careful in foreign countries -- many are not as lenient as we would like them to be. I hope someone can intercede on her behalf before they get around to executing her.
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Ailatan
05/04/09

@NefariousNewt: exactly... and it was a lot of heroin. I hope she gets the representation and assistance she needs.
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morninggloria
05/04/09

In reply to Pregnant Briton May Face Firing Squad In Laos
This case would make a Republican's head explode!

On one hand, drugs (KILL! KILL!)
On another hand, non-whites doing the killing (NO! STOP!)
On the other hand, a woman (KILL! KILL!)
On another hand, she is pregnant (OH NO! FETUS LIFE!)
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angelheadedhipster
05/04/09

@morninggloria: You forgot:

Execution (KILL! MAKE POPCORN!)
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CloudsInMyCoffee
05/04/09

@morninggloria: Yea, but she's black, so that'd be one against her.
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PhillyLass
05/04/09

@morninggloria: I'm not even a Republican and I find your comment incredibly offensive. I suspect that most members of that party would oppose the denial of due process and the abuse and torture of a woman imprisoned for a nonviolent crime. Your observation doesn't contribute to the discussion about this poor woman's plight. It comes off as an unnecessary attempt at shit-stirring.
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morninggloria
05/04/09

@PhillyLass: I'm sorry; I didn't mean to offend, but rather point out the incongruity of the conservative viewpoint by speaking of it as a caricature.

American conservatives tend to be pro death penalty but anti abortion. They tend to be pro heavy enforcement of drug laws and anti woman.
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PhillyLass
05/04/09

@morninggloria: I'm all for calling both parties out on the incongruities of their platforms. It's a time and place issue. I just don't think even the most egregious aspects of the American judicial system are analogous to what this woman is being forced to endure.
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JinxyMcDeath
05/04/09

In reply to Pregnant Briton May Face Firing Squad In Laos
"Brokedown Palace" and "Ganja Queen" pretty much shared the fucking shit out of me. Also, the one time I by mistakely brought a bowl of weed on a transatlantic trip and figured it out on the other side of the ocean made my heart stop...and now I am a psycho when it comes to my luggage.

Oh, and can we stop killing people for drug offenses? I mean, the death penalty argument is a difficult debate (does a psychopathic child molester and killer deserve to die? Some say 'yes') - but I think we can all agree that the punishment does not fit the crime here....
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JinxyMcDeath
05/04/09

@JinxyMcDeath: shared? How about "scared"?
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Kivrin
05/04/09

@JinxyMcDeath: I haven't seen "Ganja Queen," but "Brokedown Palace" was plenty scary enough for me. And yeah, the death penalty for drug offenses? And I thought the U.S. was bad for refusing to legalize marijuana...
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