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clevernamehere
11/26/08

In reply to
I'm an unrepentatant Whedon fan girl, but I think his whole "womb envy" thing is a lot more interesting in the Whedonesque piece a bunch of people posted.

Somewhere a long time ago a bunch of men got together and said, "If all we do is hunt and gather, let's make hunting and gathering the awesomest achievement, and let's make childbirth kinda weak and shameful." It's a rather silly simplification, but I believe on a mass, unconscious level, it's entirely true. How else to explain the fact that cultures who would die to eradicate each other have always agreed on one issue? That every popular religion puts restrictions on women's behavior that are practically untenable? That the act of being a free, attractive, self-assertive woman is punishable by torture and death?

I don't think he's trying to claim womb envy is his idea and I'm mildly frustrated by the "men are hunter gatherers thing" (in reality women gather, men hunt). Buffy, Angel and Firefly aren't perfect feminist shows, but you can tell he thinks about gender, which most people in Hollywood don't seem to. In order for a man to write decent female characters, I think he has to be a bit of a feminist.
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Veeness
11/26/08

@clevernamehere: I agree. I think people are making negative assumptions about his views that are flippant and incorrect. After all, if he thought giving birth was the source of a woman's worth, then why didn't Buffy have any? If that was the reason for his respect for women, it would have been the center of his work, no? I think your argument was beautiful, the only thing I disagree with is that hunting is glorified and perceived as male (which it probably mostly was) and gathering is perceived as a female activity. And of course hunting is glorified while gathering is not. Gathering has been used to explain why women love shopping so much in evolutionary psychology articles- of course the cultural and media influences would have nothing to do with that though.
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clevernamehere
11/27/08

@Veeness: My issue with hunter-gatherer is that so many people, usually male people, assume that men did both while the cave ladies stayed home doing their cave nails. Rather than the cave ladies providing the bulk of the food.
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so_gracefully
11/26/08

In reply to
OK, but Joss Whedon did not create the idea of 'womb envy'. A female psychologist named Karen Horney did, like 50-60 years ago. [en.wikipedia.org]
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Remedios Varo can't see no huevos.
11/26/08

@so_gracefully: Yes, and this also sounds like something mentioned in the S.C.U.M. Manifesto by Valerie Solanas, the woman known to history as the would-be assassin of Andy Warhol, bless her heart.
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TigerTail
11/26/08

In reply to
Granted, Joss meant well, but I find it incredibly patronizing to have my worth equated to a basic biological function. Men have dicks. Women have pussies. Both take part in reproduction, as in the case of most of the animal kingdom. In summation: big whoop.

When will I read a counter-claim that women secretly resent men for their ability to pee standing up?
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la.donna.pietra
11/26/08

@TigerTail: On the Salon.com comments page.
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Ipomoea
11/26/08

@TigerTail: I pretty much outwardly resent them for it. I want to write my name in the snow and not have to deal with sketchy public toilet seats!
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blatantlybourgeois
11/26/08

In reply to
One more reason to love Joss Whedon.

As if Buffy, Firefly, Dr. Horrible, etc. weren't enough.
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So Irish
11/26/08

@blatantlybourgeois: I want a shiny new Australia!!!
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Mercutia
11/26/08

In reply to
I like him for saying this, but I'd feel like he meant it more if any of his female herioc characters were EVER anything other than tiny, skinny little teens. I know some of the characters on Firefly were somewhat older, but they weren't too far removed from that physical type.
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Cerridwen
11/26/08

@Mercutia: Zoe was anything but skinny. That woman commanded space. Also, Jewel Saite, who played Kaylee, was asked to GAIN weight for the role. I also think that Whedon used Buffy's tiny blondeness in order to make comments on the assumption that women should be smaller, weaker etc. I'm thinking of a line from when Jenny Calendar finds out that Buffy is the Chosen One who will save the world from the apocalypse and replies: "But she's so little."
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The Queen of No
11/26/08

@Cerridwen: Yeah, and Inarra and YoSaphBridge (aka Joan Holloway) were nowhere near "tiny, skinny teens." They were kickass women.
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Cerridwen
11/26/08

@glowingliketheocean: YoSaphBridge! I watched Firefly long before Mad Men and now everytime I see Joan just OWN every room she is in, I think "Woah....that's a good Bible."
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steampoweredboy
11/26/08

In reply to
It's very nice, but still remarkably patronizing, especially to women who do not bear children. The "aw shucks, I just don't get how sexism came about" shows a profound ignorance of history and the move from matriarchal to patriarchal societies, something that too many surveys of history completely overlook or simply see as the "march of progress".

Men and women both contribute to the creation of children, and can both play vital and important roles in the upbringing.

To be honest, I find Whedon's "rah" third-wave approach to feminism more than a little ridiculous. His shows feature young women of almost precisely the same twee body type whose whole lives are defined by romantic entanglements, sexual abuse and dysfunction. His next show is about people being mind-raped. For all his efforts there's some dark territory when he writes about women.
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Cerridwen
11/26/08

@steampoweredboy: You know, I agree with you on some of these points and I think there is a tendency in the Whedonverse to blindly love everything the man creates or says (not accusing anyone here of this - if you genuinely agree with him, that's totally fine). That's why I will give him his props when he deserves them and call him out on his weird/dark gender stuff when I see appropriate (for example, I was appalled by how he played out the storyline of Spike's sexual assault on Buffy). But I do appreciate him for putting these issues out there and exploring gender, even if he screws up sometimes.
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Diziet_Sma
11/26/08

In reply to
I'm still pissed at Fox over Firefly. That's how much I love this guy.
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Pantani
11/26/08

In reply to
You know, someone should send a memo to men in general, that I would give my left arm to date a guy who said things like that.

Seriously, do they know how friggin easy it is to get women in the sack, they just have to say things like this!

The boyfriend does not say things like this, but he watched 6 hours of Pride and Prejudice with me this weekend and then suggested making cookies, and all of thsi just made me love him more.
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Cerridwen
11/26/08

@Pantani: The BBC version? Because, if so, this guy's a keeper.
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special_boots
11/26/08

In reply to
Feh. I don't know. I'm all for equality, but please don't admire me just for my womb. I don't even plan to use it.
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ginseng_you_sing
11/26/08

In reply to
If men were given the ability to carry children, would they want it? I asked my boyfriend if he'd share the breast feeding load by making himself lactate (which I guess is possible), and he said no. This coming from a dude who said he'd be pregnant if it were possible.
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ginseng_you_sing
11/26/08

@ginseng_you_sing: Would they do it, body tears, stretch marks, hormones, and all?
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sequined
11/26/08

@ginseng_you_sing: I think there are actually two separate questions you'd need to answer: is any specific man willing to do so in a culture where most men do not, and would men (as a group) prefer to have this power that women currently have? Because power dynamics change a lot in the face of social norms.
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lambandlynx
11/26/08

In reply to
SUCH an obvious, condescending attempt to get pussy.

hey, women! get a load of me! i DON'T think you're inferior! or that periods are gross! i'm a nice guy!
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NoelleBlue
11/26/08

@lambandlynx: Hmmm, while there are some fabulous ideas in this here thread about why this is progressive and why it might not be that are making me think, I really, truly don't think that pussy-gettin' faux-feminism is really his style. He has always held strong opinions on women and gender roles.
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Lizard in the Wires now with even MORE metal in the face!
11/26/08

@lambandlynx: I believe he's married anyways. Isn't he?
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Ipomoea
11/26/08

@Lizard in the Wires: He's totally married, wtih two kids (Arden and Squire).

"For his part, Whedon credits his mother, Lee Stearns, as the inspiration for his feminist worldview. When Roseanne Barr asked him how he could write so well for women, he replied, 'If you met my mom, you wouldn't ask.'"

[en.wikipedia.org]
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woobie
11/26/08

In reply to
Apparently that was why Zeus gave birth to two of his children in Greek mythology.
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Miss Smith Drank Your Vodka
11/26/08

@woobie: and Athena burst from his loins.
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lijakaca
11/26/08

@Miss Smith Drank Your Vodka: Are you sure that was Greek? I thought it was his head.
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So Irish
11/26/08

@lijakaca: It was his head. He had a 'splitting' (hee!) headache, so he had Vulcan (I think) chop his head off, and Athena sprung forth, fully-formed.
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Mafalda para Presidente
11/26/08

In reply to
*Sigh* Why are all the good ones taken?
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andBegorrah
11/26/08

In reply to
Then why is the Serenity so penile-shaped, Joss??!? Huh? Huh?? What!
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Miss Smith Drank Your Vodka
11/26/08

@andBegorrah: The little girl totally kicks everyone' ass though.

And doesn't she thrash the ship a bit in the process?

Does this mean she even kicks da peen's ass?
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LadyFabulous
11/26/08

In reply to
See, now that is a real man right there!
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