On the other hand, there've been a number of surveys in the last few years suggesting that men, on average, prefer women who are several sizes larger than the fashion industry standard, and than what women consider to be the ideal size.
Not that women should be deciding what they want to look like based on male preferences or national averages or whatever, but it does seem to be generally true that the "super-skinny" ideal is not really an ideal established and propagated by men who are sexually attracted to women.
As to what this has to do with gay men, I don't know, except that I'm assuming gay men may have slightly different standards as to what constitutes "attractive" than straight men do.
I know that I have different standards for male attractiveness than my gay friends, so--whether statistically supported or not--it seems that the conclusion isn't completely outlandish. #fashion
I think Dr. Irene Rubaum-Keller has hit the nail right on the head. As a gay man, nothing screams "sexy" to me louder than a girl with a pair of tits like a dish of fried eggs. And remember--it's not as if fashion has ever, ever, ever changed or as if larger, more full-figured women weren't considered sexy and glamorous in recent times or as if women have any say at all, at all, at all, at all in how they perceive themselves or the ideals they want to attain. "Ana-friendly" sites? Gay men's wank stations, every one of them (Corbin Fisher? Who he?)! Beth Ditto? No gay following whatsoever! Drag queens? Rail-thin lovelies, the lot of them! Dr. Irene Rubaum-Keller full of fucking shit? Absolutely nuh-uh! #fashion
My ex-bf used to ask me all the time why women try to emulate fashion models and read fashion magazines since the fashion world is dominated by gay men. I thought it had more to do with female self-hatred. I find it funny that all the sexual imagery marketed to men (porn, strippers, lingerie models) all portray women as ultra-feminine with the classic hour-glass figure. While that may be as much of an unrealistic frame as stick-thin models, at least it focuses on accentuating a woman's natural body type. All of the images marketed to women portray the ideal female as the exact opposite. They have pre-pubescent features.
@heywhat: Not true. The difference between Vogue and Maxim/Playboy is usually 6 inches of height, 8 lbs. and 3 cup sizes (those pounds aren't wasted on hips and midriffs, oh no). The male ideal has changed too. Women used to be a lot "softer", but now the "ultra-feminine" ideal is sinewy and lean, save the chest area.
I think she's saying that straight men like T&A on a girl, and I think that's a valid criticism about the fashion industry. The models in magazines who are 'shopped to praying mantis proportions don't look anything like the girls men want to fuck, at least according to porn. The fashion industry likes models who make for good clothes hangers. I wouldn't go so far to say that it's a gay male dominated field, but i will say that fahion models are supposed to represent a certain kind of artistry that displays a fashion artistry, not an ideal woman body shape according to anyone who has an opinion on what an ideal woman looks like. #fashion
@BytheSea: I certainly don't think you can base what guys like on porn. Anyway, I've known plenty of straight dudes in my life and I've learned you can NEVER tell what any of them might find attractive. Which is why it's nice women come in all shapes, sizes, colors etc... #fashion
As a gay man, I ask "Why would a gay man consider a woman to be attractive at all?" The fact that we find men to be attractive is a big part of what makes us gay, no? In fact, if a gay man is attracted to a woman, even "super-skinny model", wouldn't he be considered straight? If Irene Hyphen-Hyphen intended to say "Only Gay Men Find Super-Skinny Models Enjoyable To Gaze Upon", I still would disagree with her. And I would like to buy that Overweight Barbie.
Is she saying that only gay men would find these women attractive because these women don't have curves, which makes them less than real women, which makes them men? That's what I got from it. As a skinny woman myself I hate all this "real women have curves" bullshit and Germaine Greer's assertion that girls should have fat bottoms - I'm all for body positivity, but that ain't it. And I also think that assuming skinny women don't have hang-ups about their bodies is ludicrous. Thinness is ONE ASPECT of the physical ideal that is sold to us. Then there's the breasts - most naturally skinny women aren't overly endowed with those, and a lot of us don't have the money or inclination to pay for artificial ones, either. Then there's the clear skin, perfect features, shiny hair and well-groomed nails. How many of us can claim to have all of that? The body to which we're supposed to aspire is unattainable to almost everybody, not just "curvy" people. #fashion
It's a pretty ludicrous assertion- most gay men seem to treat curvy, buxom- even heavy lets say- women with humour and respect and friendliness, I've seen. The ones that don't , most likely they don't have kind words for anyone else, either.
If anything, it's other women in the industry who promote these images; it's an insecure competitiveness that is rife, but it's there. Straight men don't find skeletal girls attractive in the least.
People speak of gay designers as culpable- but they're figureheads, women are the ones who actually run the businesses, the magazines, to a large degree. The real work of fashion. (Though Bitchy Uncle Karl's obnoxious comments are indeed awful- that's what he does though, doesn't he? )
Just thinking aloud here, not saying it's right. #fashion
@BytheSea: It's also how you treat someone you have absolutely no sexual attraction to. Why do you expect gay men to be attracted by any woman? #fashion
@Rooo sez BISH PLZ: So every lover I've ever had has been attracted to me because they perceive me as weak and easily controlled? That's a laugh. (Well, perhaps some of them were gay.) #fashion
@cirocco: Well, maybe some of them were gay. (Happened to some friends of mine.) And maybe some of them did perceive you that way. Did you ever ask them?
Gently? You're almost as adept as Irene, the original writer, at leaping to unsupported conclusions. I've certainly seen the phenomenon I described, but it does not necessarily follow that all men attracted to thin or diminutive women are insecure. And I think, at the end of the day, you know that's not what I wrote.
But maybe you just needed someone to pick on today. Judging by the time you wrote your comment, it's 3:21 AM where you are. Bad day?
(I also must admit I figured someone might read it wrong, and take the incorrect reading personally. At least it took a whole seven hours for you to turn up.)
@Rooo sez BISH PLZ: I was sincere when I said that perhaps some of them were gay.
My comment may be funnier if you know that I am very thin and also very opinionated. When I said "That's a laugh," I was also being sincere. Your comment genuinely amused me.
The timestamps on comments are all NYC time, and I'm on the west coast. It was slightly after midnight my time. I'd just come home from a Kevin Smith event--it was a pretty good Saturday. Thanks for asking. #fashion
Hmm. I can see the many ways in which this is stupid. But I can also see it another way... I've thought about this before, and I think there might be something there.
Of course all women are beautiful as they are, and any man who is attracted to any woman should love her for who she is. Her size should not be a factor. Obviously. Ok.
But. As far as our own personal sense of sexuality being a factor in what body shapes we find attractive, we might be filtering the options based on our own subconscious perceptions of ourselves.
A male who is deeply closeted or homophobic might tend to be attracted to women who are very curvy, regardless of weight and size. Because they are undeniably female, with as little resemblance to males as possible. Big boobs and hips, long hair, long eyelashes, feminine clothing, etc.
Which doesn't mean that liking more androgynous or masculine women means that you're gay. But I think that in order to have the entire spectrum open to you as possibilities for what you will find attractive, you have to have a certain level of security in your own sexuality. Whatever it may be. And if you are gay, being comfortable with your sexuality means facing & embracing that.
I don't think that men, gay or straight, ONLY find thin/androgynous women attractive. But maybe, as you are becoming more comfortable with your own sexuality, you become more comfortable being attracted to a more androgynous woman. And maybe, ultimately, you are gay. Maybe not.
Look at any group of people where the men tend to be homophobic and sexist, and you'll see a very narrow variety of women as their girlfriends. Look at a group of people where the men tend to be feminists and work toward acceptance & equality, and their girlfriends come in all different shapes and sizes.
Mainstream machismo dude bros love Kim Kardashian. Indie boys are crazy about Karen O. Both are beautiful women. But the dude bros might look at Karen O, and think "ew". The indie boys might not have any reason to like Kim, but they're not as likely to outright insult her based on her appearance alone.
As far as gay men and fashion goes... There seem to be two camps. One does prefer thinness, and this can be for a lot of different reasons. One reaction against societal pressure for women to be ultra-feminine and curvy, and for men to desire that, is to get confused and become disgusted with the form itself, instead of the intent behind it. Another reason is because they are trying to create gender ambiguity, or gender neutrality. I'm not saying either is right or wrong or excusing anyone for anything, but from a purely artistic stance I think this is why it happens.
The other camp has more of a reclaiming attitude; take something that is being used in an offensive and hurtful way, and transform it. This is where drag queens and designers like Heatherette fall. They love women, of all varieties, and can recognize femininity in any form. They embrace playing with the idea of gender. But they also tend to create more outrageous fashions, and hold attitudes that are much less digestible by the majority of people. So their work is kind of niche; if you're wearing something they made, it's not likely it's by accident.
@prismatism: I also don't think that we can ignore the role drugs play in both gay culture and fashion. Especially amphetamines, which suppress the appetite, speed up the metabolism, and make you run around in the kind of manic frenzy that is perfect for a certain kind of art, burning off a lot of calories. Plus artists, including designers, are poor a lot of the time & would rather buy fabric than food. So thinness is naturally part of the aesthetic of that culture, and a lot of the time it has nothing to do with mainstream standards of attractiveness. They just reflect back their own reality. #fashion
This particular argument, that women should value their bodies based on what men like needs to die a painful death. It's counterproductive, it's wrong, and it's actually part of the problem because it's about external valuing that doesn't come from you, the person. So no matter what, it's a set up for failure. What if straight men -don't- find your body attractive? Or what if some do and some don't? If that's all you're basing it on, you're going to end up insane.
ED's are so much more complicated than anyone ever wants to admit. And I'm appalled that a therapist who specialized in them in them would take such an incredibly unuanced and unhelpful tactic.
The fashion industry and these images don't cause ED's. They can be triggers for them, they are part of the cultural pressure for women to maintain beauty ideals, and they do promote a lot of extremely unhealthy ideas about bodies and what women should be valued for.
Which all exists in the -entire- culture, the way we socialize girls, the way we value women, the way our bodies are commodified and treated as public property. The way we're blamed for not meeting whatever arbitrary standard has been idealized, and then further blamed for being effected by all of it at all. It's a vicious, horrible, cycle.
But you can't fix it by claiming it has anything to do with gay male designers, and you definitely can't do anything about it by telling women that straight men prefer whatever else. It's not true, for one thing, and it should never be what your self worth is hinged on anyway.
Sorry, lot to say on this subject today. I've been in treatment for ED and Body Dysmorphia for most of this year and I'm sick to death of how much people don't understand about it, and how stupidity like the article derail something that's a painful and difficult disorder to deal with, without making it seem like we all either should blame the media...or blame ourselves. It's all a hot mess that works in tandem to fuck us up. #fashion
@tiredfairy: Don't apologize for length! It's nice to hear from someone with a firsthand experience with eating disorders. I've never really struggled with anything along those lines so I'm extremely grateful to receive some important insight that I, for one, lack. On another note, I'll probably revisit this comment multiple times because you've made so many points that I would never have thought of and you expressed them incredibly clearly (a difficult thing to do with this difficult of a subject). I'm so sorry you've had to go through something like this in life, but hearing your knowledge on the subject lets me know that you'll obviously use this experience to help others in society. Thank you for one of the best comments I've read in a long, long time. #fashion
-It assumes skinny women are never conventionally attractive, and should feel bad about themselves.
-It usually hinges on the belief that gay men are all pedophiles attracted to boys and boyish men: extremely thin models don't resemble an average man, or even an average idealized man. They usually look like extremely thin women. I say this is related to a homophobic belief that gay men are pedophiles because I've often heard people say that "only gay men like women that look like 'little boys.'"
-It implies that the worst thing about anorexia is that it makes women "not sexy" to men anymore: Stop being sick! It's ugly! #fashion
Leaving the odious gay stereotyping aside, the whole mandatory thinness thing is not about being "attractive." If you subscribe to a certain school of feminist thought, and I do, it has more to do with ideas of female powerlessness - that we shouldn't take up much space, shouldn't enjoy much food, shouldn't be strong, shouldn't prioritize our own enjoyment over our eagerness to please others. Other factors come into play - the association of thinness with class privilege for one - but I do think that's a big part of it. And now any smidgen of fat on one's body is associated with laziness, grossness and inferiority.
One thing that bothers me is when people point out very unattractive fashion/modeling photos and blame it on the girl's thinness. More often than not, she's been styled in a bizarre or sickly fashion, or photoshopped to look weird. It's not that thinness is inherently unattractive, which is a nasty reaction I'm hearing too often. Of course, beauty is subjective, but I often look at those models and think "they could have made her look amazing and instead it's like they deliberately tried to make her look unappealing." #fashion
10/18/09
Not that women should be deciding what they want to look like based on male preferences or national averages or whatever, but it does seem to be generally true that the "super-skinny" ideal is not really an ideal established and propagated by men who are sexually attracted to women.
As to what this has to do with gay men, I don't know, except that I'm assuming gay men may have slightly different standards as to what constitutes "attractive" than straight men do.
I know that I have different standards for male attractiveness than my gay friends, so--whether statistically supported or not--it seems that the conclusion isn't completely outlandish. #fashion
10/18/09
10/18/09
10/18/09
10/18/09
10/18/09
10/18/09
Right. Because "gay" is the same as "liking young boys." #fashion
10/18/09
10/18/09
10/17/09
10/17/09
thank pete my husband isn't like that :) #fashion
10/17/09
10/17/09
If anything, it's other women in the industry who promote these images; it's an insecure competitiveness that is rife, but it's there. Straight men don't find skeletal girls attractive in the least.
People speak of gay designers as culpable- but they're figureheads, women are the ones who actually run the businesses, the magazines, to a large degree. The real work of fashion. (Though Bitchy Uncle Karl's obnoxious comments are indeed awful- that's what he does though, doesn't he? )
Just thinking aloud here, not saying it's right. #fashion
10/18/09
10/18/09
10/17/09
Insecure heterosexual men who perceive diminutive or very very thin women as weak and easily controlled?
Come on, Irene. Last time you poked your head out of the mole-hole and hit the front page, you didn't get it right that time either.
*eyeroll*
10/18/09
10/18/09
Gently? You're almost as adept as Irene, the original writer, at leaping to unsupported conclusions. I've certainly seen the phenomenon I described, but it does not necessarily follow that all men attracted to thin or diminutive women are insecure. And I think, at the end of the day, you know that's not what I wrote.
But maybe you just needed someone to pick on today. Judging by the time you wrote your comment, it's 3:21 AM where you are. Bad day?
(I also must admit I figured someone might read it wrong, and take the incorrect reading personally. At least it took a whole seven hours for you to turn up.)
10/19/09
My comment may be funnier if you know that I am very thin and also very opinionated. When I said "That's a laugh," I was also being sincere. Your comment genuinely amused me.
The timestamps on comments are all NYC time, and I'm on the west coast. It was slightly after midnight my time. I'd just come home from a Kevin Smith event--it was a pretty good Saturday. Thanks for asking. #fashion
10/19/09
That came through.
Thanks for asking. #fashion
10/17/09
Of course all women are beautiful as they are, and any man who is attracted to any woman should love her for who she is. Her size should not be a factor. Obviously. Ok.
But. As far as our own personal sense of sexuality being a factor in what body shapes we find attractive, we might be filtering the options based on our own subconscious perceptions of ourselves.
A male who is deeply closeted or homophobic might tend to be attracted to women who are very curvy, regardless of weight and size. Because they are undeniably female, with as little resemblance to males as possible. Big boobs and hips, long hair, long eyelashes, feminine clothing, etc.
Which doesn't mean that liking more androgynous or masculine women means that you're gay. But I think that in order to have the entire spectrum open to you as possibilities for what you will find attractive, you have to have a certain level of security in your own sexuality. Whatever it may be. And if you are gay, being comfortable with your sexuality means facing & embracing that.
I don't think that men, gay or straight, ONLY find thin/androgynous women attractive. But maybe, as you are becoming more comfortable with your own sexuality, you become more comfortable being attracted to a more androgynous woman. And maybe, ultimately, you are gay. Maybe not.
Look at any group of people where the men tend to be homophobic and sexist, and you'll see a very narrow variety of women as their girlfriends. Look at a group of people where the men tend to be feminists and work toward acceptance & equality, and their girlfriends come in all different shapes and sizes.
Mainstream machismo dude bros love Kim Kardashian. Indie boys are crazy about Karen O. Both are beautiful women. But the dude bros might look at Karen O, and think "ew". The indie boys might not have any reason to like Kim, but they're not as likely to outright insult her based on her appearance alone.
As far as gay men and fashion goes... There seem to be two camps. One does prefer thinness, and this can be for a lot of different reasons. One reaction against societal pressure for women to be ultra-feminine and curvy, and for men to desire that, is to get confused and become disgusted with the form itself, instead of the intent behind it. Another reason is because they are trying to create gender ambiguity, or gender neutrality. I'm not saying either is right or wrong or excusing anyone for anything, but from a purely artistic stance I think this is why it happens.
The other camp has more of a reclaiming attitude; take something that is being used in an offensive and hurtful way, and transform it. This is where drag queens and designers like Heatherette fall. They love women, of all varieties, and can recognize femininity in any form. They embrace playing with the idea of gender. But they also tend to create more outrageous fashions, and hold attitudes that are much less digestible by the majority of people. So their work is kind of niche; if you're wearing something they made, it's not likely it's by accident.
I hope that this made sense. #fashion
10/17/09
10/17/09
ED's are so much more complicated than anyone ever wants to admit. And I'm appalled that a therapist who specialized in them in them would take such an incredibly unuanced and unhelpful tactic.
The fashion industry and these images don't cause ED's. They can be triggers for them, they are part of the cultural pressure for women to maintain beauty ideals, and they do promote a lot of extremely unhealthy ideas about bodies and what women should be valued for.
Which all exists in the -entire- culture, the way we socialize girls, the way we value women, the way our bodies are commodified and treated as public property. The way we're blamed for not meeting whatever arbitrary standard has been idealized, and then further blamed for being effected by all of it at all. It's a vicious, horrible, cycle.
But you can't fix it by claiming it has anything to do with gay male designers, and you definitely can't do anything about it by telling women that straight men prefer whatever else. It's not true, for one thing, and it should never be what your self worth is hinged on anyway.
Sorry, lot to say on this subject today. I've been in treatment for ED and Body Dysmorphia for most of this year and I'm sick to death of how much people don't understand about it, and how stupidity like the article derail something that's a painful and difficult disorder to deal with, without making it seem like we all either should blame the media...or blame ourselves. It's all a hot mess that works in tandem to fuck us up. #fashion
10/17/09
10/17/09
-It assumes skinny women are never conventionally attractive, and should feel bad about themselves.
-It usually hinges on the belief that gay men are all pedophiles attracted to boys and boyish men: extremely thin models don't resemble an average man, or even an average idealized man. They usually look like extremely thin women. I say this is related to a homophobic belief that gay men are pedophiles because I've often heard people say that "only gay men like women that look like 'little boys.'"
-It implies that the worst thing about anorexia is that it makes women "not sexy" to men anymore: Stop being sick! It's ugly! #fashion
10/17/09
One thing that bothers me is when people point out very unattractive fashion/modeling photos and blame it on the girl's thinness. More often than not, she's been styled in a bizarre or sickly fashion, or photoshopped to look weird. It's not that thinness is inherently unattractive, which is a nasty reaction I'm hearing too often. Of course, beauty is subjective, but I often look at those models and think "they could have made her look amazing and instead it's like they deliberately tried to make her look unappealing." #fashion